News

Marcus Gee, 8:06 p.m. Attacking Harper as a program slasher is a bit much given all the big spending programs he's proposed. Also, note that Harper is taking the high road, not attacking Martin but talking about what the Tories would do instead -- a clear sign of confidence from the election leader.

Marcus Gee, 8:08 p.m. Small thing, but I hate it when NDPers talk about helping 'working families' -- the implication being that only NDP voters, not better off or even middle class people, actually work for a living.

Brian Milner, 8:08 p.m. Not a great start for PM. He looks nervous. Duceppe and Layton seem most relaxed, probably because they have the least to lose.

Mary Janigan, 8:09 p.m. This is the Liberals' weak spot now: the scandals. And this is a big chance for Mr. Layton to differentiate himself from the Liberals who are crowding out his party.

Brian Milner, 8:10 p.m. Martin shouldn't get down into the muck. Note that Harper's not making eye contact when Martin's talking.

Marcus Gee, 8:11 p.m. Harper is really drawing blood on the income trust issue, which was manna from heaven for him. But good for Martin for sticking up for Ralph Goodale, whose integrity was, as he says, impugned unfairly just because the RCMP are looking into an unproven suspicion.

Brian Milner, 8:13 p.m. Harper is joking isn't he? He's running one of the dirtiest ad campaigns in Canadian history.

Brian Milner, 8:16 p.m. Martin's right about CSL. Tax avoidance is not the same as tax evasion, which is what Harper's people want Canadians to think Martin's up to.

Marcus Gee, 8:16 p.m. Pretty thin hair to split in an election campaign, isn't it?

Brian Milner, 8:17 p.m. There's that cocky smirk on Harper again. He can't help it.

Marcus Gee, 8:17 p.m. I know, but you can see that's he's fighting it: Don't grin, DON'T Grin

Brian Milner, 8:18 p.m. Score one for Layton on campaign financing.

Mary Janigan, 8:19 p.m. I really enjoy listening to Mr. Duceppe in this debate. He is becoming the character who punches all the pretensions of others, at least in the English debate. He is doing delightful running commentary on all of them.

Brian Milner, 8:20 p.m.Finally something substantive.

Mary Janigan, 8:20 p.m. Oh no. Oh no. This is insanity. He would get rid of the clause that made the whole constitutional deal possible. The notwithstanding clause was the key.

Brian Milner, 8:20 p.m. Here we go. Notwithstanding.

Marcus Gee, 8:21 p.m. Hang on: Is Martin saying he'd try to scrap the notwithstanding clause? That's news.

Marcus Gee, 8:21 p.m. What a weird time to raise it, out of the blue during a debate. It's a Hail Mary pass.

Brian Milner, 8:23 p.m. Alas, back to scandal.

Marcus Gee, 8:24 p.m. Excellent off the cuff reply from Harper on the constitution. If it ain't borke, why fix it?

Mary Janigan, 8:24 p.m. And harper wants to put back property rights. Which was another part of the deal made in late fall of 1981. We could spend the next five years talking constitution while the world passes us by.

Marcus Gee, 8:25 p.m.Just what we need: Another constitutional debate Canadians would rather eat glass.

Mary Janigan, 8:25 p.m. Mr. Layton is doing a pretty good, last-ditch job so far in attempting to distinguish himself from the liberals. It is his theme, his song.

Brian Milner, 8:28 p.m. Gomery would never have had any legs without the income trust stuff. Martin's right. I like the line: "drive-by smears"

Marcus Gee, 8:28 p.m.It almost make you want to look away, the way the others are pounding at Martin over Gomery: like boxers going after an opponent's broken rib: bang, bang, bang. And Martin looks the part: a battered old prizefighter on the ropes. But wait: a few good licks by the old battlerr. That's what Martin needs to do: come to life, fight back against the smears.

Mary Janigan, 8:28 p.m. Mr. Martin is getting back a bit of his own sense of authority: that was a great line. He has picked up the idea of casting aspersions as unintelligent.

Brian Milner, 8:29 p.m. Proportional representation isn't a vote-grabber.

Marcus Gee, 8:30 p.m. Ya, but this from a guy who's spent two-years smearing Harper as a baby-seating fanatic.

Marcus Gee, 8:31 p.m. Mr 15-per-cent in the polls Layton wants proportional respresentation. I wonder why.

Marcus Gee, 8:32 p.m. Not a bad line from Duceppe: Martin is a "living democratic deficit."

Brian Milner, 8:32 p.m. It's always been a big NDP issue. Another good line from Duceppe, calling PM a "living democratic deficit"

Mary Janigan, 8:35 p.m. Mr. Harper would normally attack Mr. Duceppe for his talk of inclusion and roots of crime. But he needs good relations with Mr. Duceppe and Mr. Layton in case....so i bet he ignores everyone except the liberals on this.

Marcus Gee, 8:35 p.m. Does Harper honestly believe that minimum mandatory sentencing is the answer to violent crime? Duceppe is equally wrong to blame just exlcusion and root causes. This is a complex problem and neither right nor left has a (sorry) magic bullet. Layton has it right: let's be tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

Brian Milner, 8:36 p.m. My problem with the crime issue is that politicians always promise tougher laws and longer sentences. Americans have been doing that for years, without making a dent in crime numbers. Canada already has some really stiff laws, which have to be better enforced.

Marcus Gee, 8:36 p.m. Martin's wheeze about banning handguns -- in a country where they're already virtually banned -- is getting tiresome. As Harper says, we've had a ban for decades.

Brian Milner, 8:37 p.m. There's Harper smirking again. Can we vote for Steve Paikin instead?

Marcus Gee, 8:38 p.m. Only if Paula Todd becomes governor general.

Brian Milner, 8:38 p.m.Duceppe is completey right.

Mary Janigan, 8:40 p.m. It is interesting how compelling the narrative for change becomes as the other parties talk about change. It is such a difficult thing for PM to fight_even when he shines.

Brian Milner, 8:40 p.m. Ah national health policy at last. Didn't this used to be the biggest issue in Canada?

Brian Milner, 8:41 p.m. Did I mention that Hamas is running in the Palestinian election on a platform of change?

Mary Janigan, 8:41 p.m. Private for profit clinics are everywhere. good grief. as long as the public pays.....

Brian Milner, 8:44 p.m. You're right. the health train has already left the station, filled with private entrepreneurs.

Marcus Gee, 8:44 p.m. Oh, groan: Duceppe on the fiscal imbalance. Just shoot me now.

Mary Janigan, 8:45 p.m. No. no. what I mean is that private for profit clinics have been doing everything from blood work to Xrays for decades. The politicians never distinguish between public payers and private payers. As long as it is public-payer, who cares who provides the service?

Brian Milner, 8:45 p.m. Not possible to shoot you under a Liberal government.

Marcus Gee, 8:46 p.m. Ah, so Jack would use the notwithstanding clause to overturn the Chaoulii decision on health -- but not reverse the courts on same-sex marriage. Nice cherry picking.

Brian Milner, 8:47 p.m. Layton and the NDP do.

Brian Milner, 8:47 p.m. Martin scoring some points here.

Mary Janigan, 8:48 p.m. ah...values. Mr. Harper has managed to skate through the chasm between government and courts, partly by looking harmless. Benign is a good watchword. Mr. Martin is trying to not let him get away with it. It's tough going for him....

Marcus Gee, 8:48 p.m. Here come the dug-up Harper scare quotes from Martin. The Liberals seem to believe that their own values are the same as Canadian values (what ever those are).

Brian Milner, 8:50 p.m. Good to hear Duceppe believes in evolution. Too bad, his politics are stuck in the past.

Brian Milner, 8:50 p.m. Not the forefathers again. Harper needs another writer.

Mary Janigan, 8:50 p.m. Mr. Harper is trying to get Mr. Martin's goat, prodding him, shifting the focus from himself. Not working right now.

Marcus Gee, 8:52 p.m. Oh, slam-bang comeback from Harper on values, complete with another sly shot at Martin over the Liberia business. Martin is looking a little desperate here.

Mary Janigan, 8:54 p.m. There are times when I listen to Mr. Martin when I see poignantly the PM he might have been. And sometimes is.

Brian Milner, 8:54 p.m. I don't agree that Martin's sounding desperate. He's managed to score some points on the values. He should keep playing the friend of the U.S. conservatives card.

Marcus Gee, 8:55 p.m. That's the tragedy of it. He's terribly sincere and well meaning and even passionate about making the country a better place. But does he have the leadership skills to take us there?

Mary Janigan, 8:57 p.m. I do not agree with Mr. Duceppe on EI. But it is actually very funny the way he points out the problems with his opponents. And the difference between what they say_and what they did. He is like a truth-teller....whenever he skates away from the fiscal imbalance.

Brian Milner, 8:57 p.m. I still wish they would have national debates without Duceppe. Here we get told what Quebec wants, when no other province gets a place at the podium.

Marcus Gee, 8:57 p.m. When you're behind as he is, you've got to attack the other guy, no question.

Mary Janigan, 8:59 p.m. I have a hunch that this is going to turn into one of Mr. Harper's weak spots: cancelling the tax rate decrease. This is the sleeper issue over the next few days.

Marcus Gee, 8:59 p.m. It's encouraging that the 2 major parties are arguing about who would give the biggest tax cut. Last time around, Martin said Ottawa had no fiscal space for cuts. Now he's falling over himself trying to pose as Mr. tax cutter.

Marcus Gee, 8:59 p.m. I don't know. The GST cut is easy to understand and sell. Plus voters will trust the tories to do it, while they're not sure when and even if they'd get the Liberal cut.

Marcus Gee, 9:01 p.m. Even Layton says he wouldn't raise taxes

Brian Milner, 9:01 p.m. But the GST cut is a stupid move.

Marcus Gee, 9:03 p.m. Agreed. Even the folks at the Fraser Institute, Harper's intellectual soulmates, say so. But it's smart politics all the same.

Brian Milner, 9:03 p.m. That's a joke. Martin loves the dairy and poultry farmers in Quebec and Ontario, because he keeps protecting their subsidized incomes and shelters them from competition.

Marcus Gee, 9:05 p.m. The sad fact is that all 4 parties have folded under the weight of the farm lobby, even the free marketing Tories.

Brian Milner, 9:05 p.m. I'll say. Listen to Harper defend supply management.

Mary Janigan, 9:06 p.m. "This government's best proposals are the ones that never actually took place." Great line from Mr. Harper. But all of them are claiming roots in the land -- when many farmers are now agri-businesses. And should be.

Marcus Gee, 9:08 p.m. This is weird -- a one time neo-con, Harper, vowing to protect the already over protected farm market. I wish he'd sound even a little bit of like the conservative he is.

Brian Milner, 9:09 p.m. There's Harper skating away from trouble.

Marcus Gee, 9:09 p.m. Good line from Harper: Having been out of power for most of the past 100 years, we Tories don't think we have a divine right to rule.

Mary Janigan, 9:11 p.m. Mr. Harper also pointedly observed that tax cuts for large corporations would help auto firms. Sharp cut at Mr. Layton.

Brian Milner, 9:12 p.m. Layton's turned the debate into the equivalent of paid-advertising spot on late-night TV.

Brian Milner, 9:13 p.m. An olive branch to the NDP from Harper.

Mary Janigan, 9:14 p.m. There really are a lot of crafty subtexts, positionings, games going on, aren't there?

Brian Milner, 9:15 p.m. There sure are. The problem is that most Canadians aren't privy to the rules of these games. They just want to hear straight talk from these people.

Mary Janigan, 9:16 p.m. Unless I am crazy: Didn't Mr. Duceppe just say he wanted all 10 provinces used to calculate equalization? That, of course, would add Alberta....and up the take for Quebec.

Marcus Gee, 9:17 p.m. Oh. God, they're talking about equalization now. That noise you hear is the sounds of millions of remotes switching to Survivor 4.

Mary Janigan, 9:20 p.m. Equalization is now slated to grow by a set percentage per year_even though inequality among the provinces is narrowing. The whole system needs an overhaul.

Brian Milner, 9:20 p.m. Once again, Harper and Duceppe sound like brothers plotting to divide up all those federal revenues that Harper soon hopes to get his hands on. If Harper truly believes there's a fiscal imbalance, he's not a very good economist. The last time I looked, there was only one taxpayer, not a different one paying federal from provincial taxes. Provinces have always been free to raise their own revenue.

Mary Janigan, 9:23 p.m. Cities really do remain Mr. Layton's strength, don't they? This is his issue in some ways.

Brian Milner, 9:24 p.m. Notice how Layton keeps his attack heavily focused on Martin. That's because the NDP does best when the Liberals are losing seats. The Conservative surge in the polls actually helps the NDP.

Marcus Gee, 9:25 p.m. You have to admit that's he's highly articulate and sincere. In fact, let's be nice for once and admit that this is a pretty good crop of party leaders. Even Duceppe, regardless of his odious cause, is substantial.

Marcus Gee, 9:26 p.m. Except that if the Tories surge too much then the NDP doesn't hold the balance of power any more.

Brian Milner, 9:27 p.m. This is Martin's strongest message. He should play it more.

Marcus Gee, 9:27 p.m. Martin was very good just there on the value of unity in a competitive world.

Marcus Gee, 9:29 p.m. Interesting to see Harper reaching out to Charest and his Liberals in Quebec, just as Mulroney reached out to soft nationalists in the 80s.

Mary Janigan, 9:30 p.m. Mr. Layton keeps fending off Mr. Harper's advances. Kinda funny to watch this plot line.

Brian Milner, 9:31 p.m. I hate that a separatist gets a platform like this one.

Mary Janigan, 9:31 p.m. Actually Quebec did not come into canada as a whole. Territory was added since Confederation.

Marcus Gee, 9:31 p.m. Good for Paikin: If Canada is divisible, why isn't Quebec, Mr Duceppe?

Brian Milner, 9:32 p.m. History is not Duceppe's strong point.

Brian Milner, 9:33 p.m. Martin does well on the unity issue, because it evokes real passion in him. Harper has trouble conveying passion at any time.

Mary Janigan, 9:33 p.m. The sad part of this debate is that many Canadians have moved on from this debate. They cannot take it anymore. I so wish the leaders would move on. Even Mr. Duceppe.

Marcus Gee, 9:34 p.m.Good for Martin for thumping the tub on unity.

Brian Milner, 9:34 p.m. Paikin's doing a great job of controlling the discussion and making the leaders focus.

Mary Janigan, 9:34 p.m. Yes. I agree. He is really quick on his feet, stitching the themes together.

Marcus Gee, 9:39 p.m. Dangerous ground for Martin to say he has no problem describing Quebec as a nation. How does he let Duceppe drag him into this? Now Duceppe is jumping on it.

Brian Milner, 9:39 p.m. you're right. There was no need for Martin to go there.

Brian Milner, 9:39 p.m. The Quebec stuff is really tiresome.

Mary Janigan, 9:40 p.m. Even on national unity, Mr. Harper is managing to stake out a different position: provinces have the powers in the constitution to define themselves. That's true. But there is the federal spending power...

Brian Milner, 9:41 p.m. Ah, humble Harper will accept the judgment of the people.

Marcus Gee, 9:46 p.mAgain, Martin impresses with his passion for wanting to make Canada a better place. You can't say he's faking it when he gets fired up about Canada's potential.

Mary Janigan, 9:47 p.m.I liked the real PM that we just saw, sketching the future. And I am really enjoying Mr. Duceppe: He truthfully says he does not care who becomes PM.

Mary Janigan, 9:49 p.m.Buzz Hargrove really threw the NDP off its message from the start. And Mr. Layton has been struggling to recover ever since. Even tonight.

Marcus Gee, 9:52 p.m.Martin really does believe in setting great national objectives for the future and rallying people around them. Perhaps if sponsorship hadn't come around he would be leading a majority govverment now and doing just that. Instead, he's fighting for his life -- and losing. Politics can be awfully cruel.

Mary Janigan, 9:52 p.m. Yes. I agree. There really is a rather sad, wistful undercurrent to this debate.

Marcus Gee, 9:55 p.m. Duceppe is going over the top now: He says sponsorship is not just a Liberal scandal, but a federal one. So all federal parties are to blame?

Brian Milner, 9:57 p.m. Wistful is a good word. Even Layton and Harper sound wistful at times.

Marcus Gee, 9:57 p.m. Smart of Harper to admit his skills are not passion or spin. He's making his flatness a kind of virtue: I may not dazzle, but I talk straight.

Mary Janigan, 9:58 p.m.I wish Mr. Layton could be more nuanced.

Brian Milner, 9:58 p.m. All four leaders have held their own. No clear winner or loser here. Harper has remained nicely understated and Martin has shown genuine passion .... for unity, childcare and the economy.

Mary Janigan, 9:59 p.m. That is the perfect summary, Brian. I agree.

Brian Milner, 10:00 p.m. All in all, much better than the first debate. better format, questions and host.

Marcus Gee, 10:00 p.m. I agree. They all had their moments. I think Harper was perhaps the winner, though, in that he managed to look calm and unscary and even prime ministerial. Martin had to land more blows if he wanted to stop the Tory momentum.

Mary Janigan, 10:01 p.m. Yes. I think the case fo change has not been rebutted.Which is interesting.

Marcus Gee, 10:01 p.m.That was fun, folks. We'll see how it all turns out in 2 weeks.

Brian Milner, 10:01 p.m.It's hard to change momentum and impossible to do it in a single debate. Martin has his work cut out for him in the last two weeks of the campaign.