Anne Heche, left, and Sandra Oh star in Onur Tukel’s Catfight.
In a stairwell of a New York high-rise, a cocktail party ends in blood. Resentment, insecurity and callousness lead to an impromptu physical showdown between two former college frenemies, both of whom use violence to channel their profound personal unhappiness.
Ashley (Anne Heche) is a struggling artist whose grotesque paintings fail to make their mark while Veronica (Sandra Oh) is the wife of a war opportunist, whose wealth is about to skyrocket in the wake of impending doom.
And that's just the beginning: From there, each woman finds herself on a journey that continues to bring them together while driving them further away from their former selves. Issues of class, gender, race and the United States' war-industrial complex creep up as Catfight offers a too-real look into the roles we play in each.
So, needless to say, there was more than enough to talk about when I sat down with Oh, Heche and director Onur Tukel the morning after the film's Friday night premiere. And while we all agreed that Catfight could easily fill an afternoon of conversation, we still managed to delve into everything from inherent female rage to embracing the types of flaws that so perfectly defined each character.
I'll spare you the 'are you a feminist?' question–
Oh: Oh, I'll take that on because Anne and I are. And in the process of film making, Onur, as you can see, is a man. And when we were shooting this very intense project, all his keys [were] women. And so the experience of being on a set where the people who are in charge of making the decisions are all women was a really wonderful experience – and intentional on his part.
Heche: It wasn't that there weren't any men on the set. It's just that the people who could tell other people what to do was women.
Right now in pop culture, there's this trend where we equate feminism to sisterhood. But I think the most feminist thing about this film is that you're people – and as people, you don't have to like another person. So, what flaws in your characters were you most drawn to?
Heche: To make this person, it wasn't about looking at her flaws. It was about justifying or being truthful in being a person who you would believe would get into this fight and allow her emotions to get so out of control with herself that the action and behaviour that happen in the movie, you embrace as truth.
For me, I never wanted anyone to laugh at those fights, but to be drawn in through the portrayal of a human being who would maybe get into a situation that's that brutal. Whether physically or emotionally, but I think the physicality is the emotional response to her inability to deal with her life, truthfully. And in doing that, it was a necessary component to my character.
Her self-indulgence, her lack of care and concern for others and the ability to include them in the choices that she makes – those are part of the things that I find uncomfortable to deal with in humans. And I really was interested in my mistreatment of those people. When people believe that they're the only thing; that they are the way, when they exclude others, they deserve what they get.
Tukel: I definitely feel like when your character gets beaten up in the second fight, she deserves it. But Sandra's a little trickier, because I don't feel like she deserves it.
Oh: But in a certain way, it's not a linear thing. These fights are symbolic. No one deserves any of this. But you could also say, who deserves these things in life?
And to answer your question for me, I was really drawn to Veronica – and I love Veronica's whole journey because she's a little further along in her journey. So for me, the first act, it was her falseness and her lack of knowing who she is. And how, for me, coming into contact with Ashley, who I really feel is so true to herself while Veronica is so false to herself. She can't handle it. And also I was interested in someone who parents and who sets up belief systems in a child that ultimately lead to a really destructive belief system.
Heche: And it is so devastating that [Veronica's son] made choices because of how she deposited that belief system. And to even have that showing the impact parenting has. And I think that's why [this movie] is so important. It makes very big statements about the impact we have on others.
I found myself relating to the worst parts of you at times. And that's the beauty of humanity – we're all complex and flawed and multidimensional and no one is perfect and no one has it all figured out. But what I think is interesting is how you used violence as the catalyst for these realizations. And it was jarring to watch those fight scenes. Why do you think women-on-women violence is more commanding than another type?
Oh: I think, ultimately, female rage – there is so much that is so untapped and it is extremely powerful. It's the rage from Mother Earth. And if you think that she's not angry, she's pissed. And we broke up the fights into themes: The first one is blood, the second one is weapon/war and the third one is earth. And that's the one that's the most transformative for both of us. So it's that rage of nature. And it's not like the rage of the sea or the rage of a thunderstorm. It's the rage that I think women carry all the time. And for whatever reason is not expressed physically.
Heche: If we connect the rage of Mother Earth as a consciousness, we're connecting to the life force being able to disconnect from me, which means that if we actually embrace that a woman can be that angry, she can say no to the thing that carries us on. That's the ultimate power – the ultimate power is that she shuts down. To give birth, to allow yourself the right to admit that you can even give life – there's so much that you have to do. So the beginning of life is the beginning of me being pissed off because I have to do it.
Oh: There's a tremendous force in the force of destruction. But again, destruction is a part of life as well. So we were doing our best to tap into the primal life force.
Well, we've all been that angry before and you tapped into it. Were there moments in the film you felt demonstrated your own [rage] more than others? Or was there a moment where you realized you were angrier than you thought you were?
Tukel: I asked Anne what she was thinking in the first scene, and she was like, 'I'm not going to tell you my secrets!'
Heche: What other people think people are angry about? That's wrong. And I think part of why we want to define it is so we can contain it. And that helps us put something into perspective because it's out of control. So, can I tame it somehow for myself because that's too much? I definitely, definitely think Sandra and I both allowed ourselves to not only know what that anger was, but push each other to allow the other to show every single connection to every dark, hurtful, rageful thing that we've ever seen with anyone and allow that to be contained in every scene that we shot. It was bigger than my rage.
Oh: It can never be one thing. Ultimately – and I really credit Onur for this – he created a collective space where this kind of whirling thing was able to come up. And it really took a hold of both of us. Not that we weren't in control of it, but it's a little mysterious to talk about, which I think makes it quite special.
I loved how Anne, you start off as the artist, the bohemian. And you, Sandra, are in finance. And then it switches. But you both end up capitalizing on war. So on top of this being a really great feminist film, it's commenting on class, race, war and the industrial complex, the election. There are disturbing elements to all of those themes. What did you find was the most stirring?
Oh: That's a tricky thing because this film works on multiple levels. And we haven't necessarily shared [our own experiences with each other]. So there's a certain level to which I think about those [themes], but I wasn't thinking about any of that consciously. All I tried to do – moment by moment – is be as brutally honest as possible to where this character was right now.
Heche: I think that's super important because we take a film for all of the reasons that we read and understood and are possessed to do it and can't believe we get to be a part of someone actually saying this. And I'm so proud to be doing that. But my interpretation and belief is only made true by how I do a character.
So everything has to go out the window about what I feel and believe because he [Tukel] made a character who is a part of this bigger thing that he's trying to say.
Tukel: Oh, I think the movie's very complex. If you look at it from women beating each other up and taking responsibility. Because each woman blames the other for what happens in their lives. Anne throws the first punch, but that sets off this snowball effect. But if you think of the two genders, men and women, who is the gender that's been beaten up the most? Women. So I think this movie speaks a lot to women and women supporting each other, and if you're not supporting each other–
Oh: And also responsible for your own life.
Tukel: And not looking for blame and retribution. It makes it worst.
There's no accountability. In the end [and they're still blaming each other], they're still so selfish.
Tukel: I think it's really layered and terrific. And it's way more complex than just a viewing that's entertaining. And the complexity you guys bring to the film, you bring a depth and a heartbreaking aspect to the film that I hadn't even thought about.
This interview has been condensed and edited.
Catfight screens at the Toronto International Film Festival on Sept. 18 at 3:45 p.m., Scotiabank Theatre.