Grads & Jobs

snider

Globe and Mail Update

GinnyGalt Virginia Galt, The Globe and Mail's workplace reporter, was on-line earlier Thursday to discuss the employment picture for recent college and university graduates.

The questions and answers are at the bottom of this page. Please refresh your browser frequently to see the latest.

Recently, Ms. Galt has written two popular articles on the subject. In last Saturday's paper, Ms. Galt profiles a 22-year-old woman  with a degree in marketing management who took a low-paying entry-level job at an on-line magazine in order to gain experience. On Monday, Ms. Galt followed up her weekend story with a report on the reluctance of grads  to take entry-level jobs and the difficulties of landing that first "real job" — even in an environment where the national unemployment rate is at a 32-year low.

Please note, Ms. Galt doesn't dispense career advice but is happy to discuss the overall employment picture and relate the sage wisdom passed on to her from her many interview subjects.

Virginia Galt joined The Globe as a business writer in 1981 after covering Parliament for five years as a reporter with the Canadian Press bureau in Ottawa. She has also served as an assistant national editor and Toronto Bureau Chief in addition to reporting on the labour movement, education, pensions and banking during her 25 years with the paper.

Editor's Note: globeandmail.com editors will read and allow or reject each question/comment. Comments/questions may be edited for length or clarity. HTML is not allowed. We will not publish questions/comments that include personal attacks on participants in these discussions, that make false or unsubstantiated allegations, that purport to quote people or reports where the purported quote or fact cannot be easily verified, or questions/comments that include vulgar language or libellous statements. Preference will be given to readers who submit questions/comments using their full name and home town, rather than a pseudonym.

Michael Snider, globeandmail.com: Hello Ginny and welcome. Thanks for being with us today. Hello readers, thanks for writing in and following the discussion. Ginny, form your experience and from interviews with graduates and experts, how many grads actually know what career they want to pursue when they get out of school, and does it improve their chances of finding work?

Virginia Galt: Most grads have no idea of the range of options, which is why it helps to go to career fairs even in the early years of university to get a feel for what's out there. I've spoken to grads where were surprised -- but not unhappy -- to find themselves selling Rubbermaid products or moving into market research for cosmetics companies.

Those who actually know what they want to do fare better, according to university career centre counsellors, because they can work their summer jobs around their aspirations or get into co-op programs, where they get actually on the job training in their chosen fields. But most basically do not know what they want to do "when they grow up."

James Sanders from London writes: What are job prospects like for today's law school graduates?

Virginia Galt: There are more grads than jobs, according to our legal reporters. There is heavy competition for the select few, but there has not been a huge increase in hiring. Our e-mail correspondents indicate that there are a lot of frustrated law school grads out there looking for work.

Nathan Weatherdon from Toronto writes: The baby boomers are set to retire. Are we entering a time where the labour market favours newcomers to the workforce? Will this result in a natural increase in wages due to decreasing supply of labour? Will this lead legislators to erode workers rights to keep business costs low? Any ideas on how future governments may deal with these issues?

Virginia Galt: Well, the unemployment rate for people under 25 is the lowest it has been in 15 years — but still not great at 11.5 per cent. So, yes, the market is more receptive to new entrants, although the wages are not shooting up yet. Employers tell me that young workers are more interested in work-life balance and career development opportunities than in money. I'm not sure I agree with that.

The Conference Board and other research organizations say that there will be a critical need for people, across all sectors, over the course of the next ten years as the Boomers move into retirement range, but we're not at the war-for-talent stage yet and employers still have the upper hand in most regions.

I can't see governments eroding labour standards too much — especially after the riots in the streets in France after the government tried to remove job security for young people. The changes are more on the other end, with the elimination of mandatory retirement.

Paul Di Iulio from Bolton writes: In reality, do employers put a lot of merit as to which institution you received your degree or diploma from?

Virginia Galt:Not so much as they used to, I'm told. The focus is more on attitude and whether you can do the job. The quality of Canadian universities is consistently high across the country and employers tell me that the community college system is doing a great job of turning out employment-ready grads.

In some fields, like high tech, however, the employers still tend to make a bee-line for the University of Waterloo, primarily because it's co-op program is so well developed and its grads have work experience.

Patrick Samson-Doel from Richmond Hill writes: As a 3rd year co-op BBA student, I'm beginning to notice that work experience seems more valuable than education. True, university helps get your foot in the door, but that seems about it. My question is this: with the now ubiquitous university degrees and, to a certain extent MBA's, do you favour getting into the workforce as soon as a viable opportunity presents itself? Or is it better to 'build your arsenal' of education/qualifications, so to speak?

Virginia Galt: If you are planning on an academic career, it's good to concentrate on academics, clearly. Otherwise, grads tell me they have trouble getting work when the have no work experience — and they won't get that work experience unless someone hires them. That Catch-22 thing. Some career counsellors recommend internships, which don't pay much at all, just to get that essential work experience that employers are looking for.

Ren Stimpy from Calgary writes: Five years ago when I graduated from university with an economics degree, I had similar difficulties. I too was forced to take a low paying job to 'get my foot in the door'. The Government funded program that subsidies new grad employment is a joke. There is a cap on the salary while people may have $10,000's in student loan dept. Do you think it would be valuable for the Federal Government to remove the current program in favour of tax incentives to corporations to high new grads? Could the current program be amended to give loan relief to grad involved?

Virginia Galt: That's an intriguing idea. Employers are not doing enough to hire new grads — and yet they will be screaming about shortages when the Boomers start moving out. Incentives would probably help.

The Ontario government now offers subsidies to employers who take on apprentices — an essential investment in the future, given that only 18 per cent of employers would could offer apprenticeships in the skilled trades actually do so.

At the very least, there should be a broader public policy discussion on the support and development of our future workforce, particularly when so many well-qualified grads are having trouble finding work in their chosen fields.

Jo-Anne Joyce from Winnipeg writes: When I first graduated from University with a BSc in Ecology, I was one of only a handful of people I knew of from my graduating class who landed a job in my field. I attribute that to a couple of things: Firstly, abandoning my relatively high-paying part-time jobs as a cashier, hospital clerk and lifeguard to take lower-paying summer work in my field during my years at university. It gave me great experience, valuable contacts and a much-better perspective on the difficult task of finding meaningful work. I did the homework: ferreting out agencies I wanted to work for, learning about the work they do and the agency's approach to hiring students or interns, then dropping off my résumé and work samples in person. Don't just cold-call and drop off your résumé with the receptionist or HR person - that usually lands your C.V. in the HR files 'for future consideration'. Take the time to phone ahead and ask for a staff directory (&/or some advice from the receptionist) so you know who does the kind of work that interests you. Make a 15-minute appointment with that person. Ask about their work and any opportunities that may be coming up to work with them or their colleagues; tell them a bit about yourself and your interests, and leave a package with them. Also be prepared to leave other packages with them for colleagues, with the HR person and with the admin. person with a request to circulate to anyone in the office who may be doing hiring. By the time you graduate with your degree or certification and a few summers' related work under your belt, you will be a better catch for employers, you'll have confidence in your work. Even if you start in an entry-level job or create a volunteer position for yourself, you'll establish credibility and be eligible for the internal contracts and hirings. Lots of jobs are filled internally - many are never posted, and the ones that are are often filled by someone who has been 'acting' in the position, so do whatever you can to get on the inside of an organization you believe in. Good luck out there!

Virginia Galt: That's fantastic advice. I've spoken to other grads who have taken a similar approach. It can be a strain financially, though, unless there is family support.

It is important in the long term to end up doing something you really love doing — otherwise work can be a real grind. Knowing what you want, and going for it, is a good strategy.

Simon Kiss from Kingston writes: A common belief among policy makers is that charging higher tuition fees for post-secondary education is justified because university graduates earn higher incomes upon graduation. However, some of your stories seem to indicate that this is not the case. Graduates may be coming out of university with large debts and little chance of high-income work at the outset. Can you comment on the financial, personal and psychological burden that new, particularly working-class graduates, bear because of the massive debt loads imposed on them by the government when they realize that high-paying jobs may not be available?

Virginia Galt: It's a pretty stressful situation for new grads. Many will eventually land where they want to, I think, but I've found that a lot of the entry level jobs are temporary or contract positions. (No dental plan!).

The governments are picking up a smaller portion of the post-secondary education tab than they did in the past, and the students are picking up more -- with no absolute guarantees of good-paying jobs. Some of these issues will be resolved by the tightening labour market. But that is small comfort, I know, to someone who is graduating with a big debt and is still looking for that big job. Statistics Canada figures suggests that people with higher education levels do, in fact, have a higher employment rate and eventually earn higher salaries than their less-educated cohorts. But these are overall stats.

Liam Dynes from Toronto writes: A question about prioritizing and risk vs. reward: You've touched on liberal arts briefly in your articles, but not so much to address humanities grads' problems specifically. What can be seen as the 'best' option for, say, an English grad who doesn't especially want to teach (the default answer that everyone gives when I say what I majored in)? The media/publishing in Toronto/any other major urban centre is nearly impenetrable for those without a Masters or years of writing and experience past university. And more and more job postings are using variations on the phrase (but the exact sentiment of) 'if you've only worked for your school paper and interned, please do not apply.' What kind of harm can be done to future 'real job' aspirations by having to take a job at places like film companies doing manual labour/driving to pay rent, even if entertainment/media is a field you'd want to get into? Would it be better to find some admin/office job anywhere else than to take a 'step back' into a job that requires less higher education?

Virginia Galt: No harm at all in taking something to tide you over. It's all experience. Media/publishing is like a lot of other industries in that the Boomers, like me, are still occupying a lot of the plum spots. The best thing, when you are driving that truck, is to always be on the lookout for openings and opportunities. Regularly scan the on-line job boards and keep after the employers you want to work for.

Clark Kent from Toronto writes: I've heard (and noticed) that Canadian employers (or perhaps just the HR people) have stringent requirements for new employees when compared to other nations. I've noticed most jobs require a minimum of two years experience (in addition to a host of other very specific desired skills) for entry-level positions. I would know, as I've encountered this as an engineering grad. With all the talk of labour shortages (we need more engineers, etc.), is this a factor in the problem or more of a misconception about Canadian expectations? It seems to me Canadian employers needs to take more risks and hire grads with the intention of training them.

Virginia Galt: Employers who complain about labour shortages invariably tell me that they are looking for the "best and the brightest" or people with experience. Raiding the competition is still far more common than training. A recent Statscan study found that 20 per cent of Canadian university grads feel they are overqualified for their jobs. Younger grads, in particular, often report that they are hired to do jobs that high school students could do. Employers counter that the grads have to start somewhere, work their ways up and "pay their dues." It could just be that there are not enough challenging jobs to tap into the talent of our well-educated workforce.

James O'Hearn from Toronto writes: A couple years back I was working a convocation at York University when Mordecai Richler was getting an honourary degree. Mordecai made a comment that had everyone laughing - 'To those of you today who are receiving your Liberal Arts degrees, you will soon overcome your handicap.' I laughed with the rest then, but the chuckles come quite thinly now. Several times in the past few months, when I phoned agencies to register with them, I was told that having a degree was worhtless, that to be an office clerk or call centre representative required years of experience in an office environment. My skills, even though I have a wealth of experience in journalism, teaching, and customer service, 'just don't translate.' I understand the advice that it takes time to find a job, that a new graduate has to spend several months, perhaps even a year getting in somewhere. But with a wife to support, a child on the way, and bills to pay, I now work in warehouses, and factories, my earnings well short of the poverty line. My wages are so low that I literally can't afford to spend time researching a company, then make my way down to their offices to network with an HR manager, or go around town knocking on doors. What I don't understand is the cruel irony of the situation. Every single friend I have who dropped out of university, or never even entered university, owns a house, makes over $50,000 a year, and is happy as can be. When I was in Japan for a year teaching, trying to earn enough to finish my degree, I learned that any, and I mean any university graduate could get in at any company because the companies over there actually train their employees. But in Canada such a thing is simply not done! How can a grad like myself get into a position where I can actually demonstrate my skills, show them what I can do, and land a job? Is there a particular agency, or company I can go to?

Virginia Galt: James, a lot of grads go back to their university career centres well after they have graduated. It's a good source of information and the market is improving somewhat. Employers who were not hiring a couple of years ago might be hiring now. Plus, it is a service that a number of university and college career centres now feel obliged to provide.

Michael Snider, globeandmail.com: Ginny, thanks very much for coming on today and readers, thank you very much for your questions. We're very sorry for not being able to answer them all. Please feel free to add your two cents by clicking on the "comment" link below.

If you have any thoughts about the Discussion format or would like to see a particular reporter/columnist invited on or a particular subject covered, let us know. You can email your thoughts to msnider@globeandmail.com

Virginia Galt: Thanks so much for your questions, and your advice to policy-makers and fellow graduates. On reflection, my responses probably sounded more pessimistic than I really am about future job prospects for grads. But there has to be a more co-ordinated effort between governments and employers to create these opportunities so the new generation of employees can move in and move up — and the Boomers can retire (because most, in fact, do not want to keep working past 65).

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