Toronto businessman Nazim Gillani contradicted statements by former MP Rahim Jaffer in testimony Wednesday at a parliamentary committee.
Mr. Gillani, who is at the centre of the scandal surrounding Rahim Jaffer and his wife, former junior cabinet minister Helena Guergis, revealed that his business dealings with Mr. Jaffer were more extensive than previously thought.
Mr. Gillani told committee members he met Mr. Jaffer on seven occasions and even planned to travel to China with him earlier this month. He provided MPs with a formal contract between his company and the firm owned by Mr. Jaffer and business partner Patrick Glémaud. The contract, dated Sept. 21, 2009, was for help securing government funding for a renewable energy project.
Last week, Mr. Jaffer testified that he had a few exploratory meetings with Mr. Gillani but the two companies ended their relationship because of a lack of "synergies".
In his testimony, Mr. Gillani also:
» Apologized for writing an e-mail last fall that said: "Mr. Jaffer has opened up the Prime Minister's office to us." Mr. Gillani said he was "over-enthusiastic" and that Mr. Jaffer made no such promise.
» Denied cavorting with busty hookers with Mr. Jaffer.
» Said he never saw Mr. Jaffer use, possess or speak of cocaine. Mr. Gillani said he doesn't use cocaine and is not a drug dealer.
» Denied having incriminating cell phone photos of Mr. Jaffer and Ms. Guergis, as alleged by a private investigator who contacted the Conservatives.
» Said he did not set up offshore bank accounts for Mr. Jaffer or Ms. Guergis.
Read the timeline Mr. Gillani submitted to the committee:
Transcript of the live coverage:
3:00 Jill Mahoney: Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us as we live blog Nazim Gillani's appearance at the House of Commons government operations committee today.
3:01 Jill Mahoney: I'm Jill Mahoney, a Globe and Mail reporter. I'll be joined by senior political writer Jane Taber, who is making her way to the committee room on Parliament Hill.
3:01 Jill Mahoney: The committee is set to begin in half an hour, at 3:30 ET. Please submit your comments or questions. We'll try to get to as many as we can before Mr. Gillani starts testifying.
3:02 Jill Mahoney: Today is the first time Mr. Gillani, a Toronto-area businessman, will speak publicly about his ties to Rahim Jaffer, a former Conservative MP. The two men's companies explored business ventures last year.Mr. Gillani was thrust into the spotlight after recent reports of a boozy dinner with Mr. Jaffer and a group of business colleagues last September. The next day, Mr. Gillani sent an e-mail saying: "Mr. Jaffer has opened up the Prime Minister's office to us."
3:03 Jill Mahoney: The claim helped spark the lobbying scandal that has dogged Mr. Jaffer. Last week, Mr. Jaffer told the members of the government operations committee -- the same committee that will hear Mr. Gillani's testimony -- that he had never lobbied the government. Since then, however, four Conservative ministers have said Mr. Jaffer made representations to officials in their offices.
3:04 Jill Mahoney: Click here to read a story Jane wrote yesterday about what Mr. Gillani intends to say at today's committee meeting.
3:06 [Comment From W B Devitt: ]Welcome Back Jill, TY again for taking the time to present this format.
3:08 Jill Mahoney: Here's a link for a webcast of the committee's proceedings. It should go live once things get under way at 3:30 ET.
3:11 Jill Mahoney: Click here to check out the (lengthy!) coverage by Jane and I of Rahim Jaffer's testimony at the same committee a week ago.
3:12 : Hi from the Government Ops committee. Reporters and political staffer are assembling.
3:12 Jill Mahoney: Everyone, that's Jane Taber joining us live from the scene.
3:12 [Comment From Jr: ]Does anyone else think Jaffer and his wife are just two people who didn't use sound judgement before associating with this guy? Doubt they did anything wrong..we need a real scandal in Canada
3:15 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]It is readily apparent Jr., that Raffer's lobbying was in full swing, long before meeting with Gillani.
3:15 [Comment From Roger: ]Jr they did plenty wrong. Sound judgment is a requirement for high office in Canada. This is not about how entertaining their antics were.
3:16 : JT: There are some Canadians who certainly share your view that the couple's troubles are the result of poor judgment. It is likely after we hear from Mr. Gillani that Mr. Jaffer will be invited back to the committee to address some of the contradictions in his testimony. For now, however, reporters have been supplied with a timeline from Mr. Gillanit detailing his relationship and meetings with Mr. Jaffer -- it is under embargo until Mr. Gillani speaks.
3:18 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]Welcome Back Jane, TY again for taking the time to present this format.
3:19 [Comment From Jr Millerr: ]oh yes JT...no doubt Jaffer is in for another ride to the committee before all is said and done. His testimony reminded me of the baseball hearings in the USA. The players were just dancing around their answers a bit too much
3:19 [Comment From VLJ: ]Lets not forget that Jaffer was caught in a lie (to a parliamentary committee no less), according to Prentice, Jaffer used his wife's office to meet with his aid regarding a business (sounds like lobbying to me). While to the committee Jaffer stated that he didn't do this. Poor judgment doesn't seem to be the only thing going on here.
3:23 : JT: We should be putting up the Gillani/Jaffer time line on our site in just a moment; cameras trained on all doors of the committee room as we await Mr. Gilani's arrival
3:21 Jill Mahoney: Jane, do you have any idea if Mr. Gillani will be accompanied by a lawyer or other adviser today?
JT: he's here
3:25 Jill Mahoney: I've just had an email from Brian Kilgore, Mr. Gillani's spokesman saying: "No lawyer, and I'm in Toronto."
3:26 [Comment From nickk: ]Ms. Tabor, thank you so much for helping us all to realize that Mr. Jaffer and his "associates" may reflect more on Mr. Harper's style of governance than we may have ever thought! Wednesday April 28, 2010 3:26 nick
3:26 : JT: He is by himself. As I noted yesterday in my story --his parnter Mike Mihelic could not attend. his conditions of bail on an unrelated fraud charhe preclude him from being in same room as Mr. Gillani. this is according to Gillani spoeksman, Brian Kilgore. 3:28 [Comment From nick nick: ]
Ms. Tabor, thank you so much for helping us all to realize that Mr. Jaffer and his "associates" may reflect more on Mr. Harper's style of governance than we may have ever thought!
3:28 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]CBC News is about to start their coverage in about 3 minutes W
3:29 Jill Mahoney: Again, here's a link for a webcast of the committee's proceedings.
3:29 : JT: Libs are giving out copy of a contract between Mr. Jaffer's company and international strategic Investments -- Mr. Gillani's company. under cluase two of the contract it states that the gpg has "valuable connections to and with the government of Canada and various departments., ministries.." strong stuff!!
3:30 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]Nice, Mr. Jaffer's contradictions will be back to haunt him in Committee, Round 2
3:31 : JT: GPG is Green Power Generation -- Mr. Jaffer's company
3:31 Jill Mahoney: The testimony is beginning.
3:31 : JT: they are swearing in Mr. Gillani
3:32 Jill Mahoney: My name is Nazim Gillani and I was born on March 18, 1967 in London , England . I immigrated to Canada in 1974 and I am the CEO of International Strategic Investments-ISI for short. Thank you first for the opportunity to tell my side of this story and answer your questions.
3:33 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Until April 8, I was a low-profile, medium-sized venture capitalist and financier. I have been in this business for 23 years. I would like to state that I am a visible minority. I have seen no sign of prejudice or racism from this Committee, or anyone else in regard to the matter before this Committee.The Toronto Star published an article by Kevin Donovan full of unsubstantiated distortions and innuendo, attacking my character.
3:33 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: That article referred to Mr. Jaffer and Mr. Glémaud, in ways that distorted our business and personal relationships. Subsequent to the article published April 8, other media piled on the bandwagon, spreading inaccuracies and innuendo. On Saturday, April 10, 2010, yet another unsubstantiated article in The Toronto Star said that I boasted about being a banker to a biker gang. I said no such thing. I have provided the Committee with a timeline to help you follow what happened, from my perspective.
3:33 : JT:Mr. Gillani -- visible minority and he says right off top he has seen no sign of racism by this committee -- shot at patrick Glemaud who last week criticized the committee for what he thought was bigotry. he is outlining his timeline.
3:34 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: On Sunday, April 11, 2010, I put out a Statement on Canada News Wire which read: "I urge all interested media following my story to carefully examine the reporting, sources/attribution, and fact-checking of Mr. Donovan's articles instead of merely copying and accepting them at face value."
3:34 Jill Mahoney: That Toronto Star article of April 8 unleashed a media storm. The swirling tornado of accusations has turned my life into complete mayhem. I am here today to answer questions in regard to my involvement with Rahim Jaffer, Patrick Glémaud, and Green Power Generation-GPG for short. We first met in August of 2009 and I have met Mr. Jaffer on 6 other occasions since then.
3:35 Jill Mahoney: I have provided you in advance with relevant documents which I believe you have.
The services offered by GPG listed on both the GPG website and Mr. Jaffer's personal website, were what my company, ISI, was interested in. GPG formalized the provision of those services in a contract with my company.
On page 2 of that contract, which was revised by Mr. Glémaud, dated September 21, 2009, it states that:
"The Consultant warrants and represents that it is in ongoing dialogue with, and has valuable connections to and with, the government of Canada and various departments, ministries, and wholly or partially owned entities thereof, all for purposes of providing participatory and non participatory government funding (and other incentives) as well as ongoing support for various prospective private sector projects, ventures and initiatives.
3:35 : JT: He says he has met Mr. Jaffer "six" times. Mr. jaffer suggested last week that he didn't really pursue his relationship with Mr. Gillani as there were no "synergies".
3:36 Jill Mahoney:
I would like to draw your attention to that September 21st, 2009 date:
- that was after my initial meeting with Mr. Jaffer at La Castille Restaurant;
- it was after my Harbour 60 Steakhouse dinner;
- it was after Mr. Jaffer's arrest by the OPP; and
- it was after the social dinner with Mr. Jaffer and his wife, then Minister Helena Guergis.
3:36 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: This date should be compared to testimony last week, when the principals of GPG said there were no "synergies" with ISI and ended their relationship with me. Now, it has been noted by many that trying to get access to both funding and government services in Ottawa is a labyrinth task. I was under the impression that Mr. Jaffer and Mr. Glémaud knew what they were doing with regard to government funding access-there was never any underhanded or with "undue influence" plan.
3:36 : JT: Talking about access -- says he wqas under impression that Mr. Jaffer knew how to "negotiate the government maze"
3:36 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Simply, they said they knew how to negotiate the government maze. However, they never obtained any grant money for any company referred by ISI. ISI never paid any money or gave any compensation to them or their company. Further, Mr. Jaffer and I were to travel to China together on April 13, 2010. Yet Mr. Jaffer seemed to state to this Committee last week that he ended our relationship months ago. This was untrue.
3:37 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: My first meeting with Mr. Jaffer was on August 25, 2009 at La Castille Restaurant. On this date, I sent the e-mail that referred to Mr. Jaffer as "the Canadian government money access point," based on my understanding of what he and Mr. Glémaud did for a living. At this meeting, Mr. Jaffer did give out his MP business card in front of me, but qualified that delivery by stating he didn't have his GPG cards and had a binder with these old ones. He stated he was not an "MP" and crossed out "MP" and wrote another phone number on it - and that's what I saw him do when he met one person at that luncheon.
3:38 Jill Mahoney: I would now like to address other allegations against me: Moving ahead, to the September 10, 2009, dinner at Harbour 60 Steakhouse, the reality is that four of us met for dinner: me, Mike Mihelic, Rahim Jaffer, and Dr. Chen. Later that evening, we were joined by Ryan Driscoll and Frank Campanile. Later still that evening, we were joined by my then-girlfriend and two of her friends.
3:38 : JT; untrue, says Mr. Gillani, that Mr. Jaffer ended relationship; he did gove out his MP business card although he stated he was not an MP. the two were also to travel to China together in Feb. 3
3:39 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: These women, all of whom have respectable jobs, have been devastated that they were referred to as "busty hookers" by Kevin Donovan in The Toronto Star. And "busty hookers" has become the fun phrase of Canadian media, having no regard for what it had done to these 3 women.And finally, the morning of Friday, September 11, 2009, I wrote the now well-known e-mail: "Mr. Jaffer has opened up the Prime Ministers' office to us…"
3:39 Jill Mahoney: That sentence was mine and mine alone. It was clearly over-stated and I sincerely apologize for my over-enthusiastic statement. There was never, ever, any suggestion of direct or indirect access to the Prime Minister's Office by Mr. Jaffer or Mr. Glémaud. Mr. Jaffer was not a recipient of that email. Next, there was the dinner at Sassafras Restaurant in Toronto 's Yorkville district held on Saturday, September 12, 2009, during the Toronto International Film Festival. This was a social event and is the only time I met former Minister Guergis.
3:39 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I have never seen Mr. Jaffer use cocaine, in possession of cocaine, or speak of cocaine. I do not use cocaine nor have I ever been a drug dealer.
3:40 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Another allegation swirling around me has been that I have compromising photos on my cell phone of former Minister Guergis and Mr. Jaffer "partying" with cocaine and prostitutes. I have no such photos; I took no such photos. Those outrageous and untrue allegations were first published in The Toronto Star, and seemed to have made their way to the Prime Minister himself.
3:40 : JT: Gillani says that the three women with them at the Harbour 60 dinner last Sept were not "busty hookers". he says reputations of those women have been hurt by the "media fun phrase". has never seen Mr. Jaffer use cocaine or talk of it; no photos of Mr;affer and his wife, Helena guergis, partying with prostitutes or cocaine
3:40 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I am not being investigated for tax evasion. Please refer to the letter from Canada Revenue Agency in your packages. Those unfounded allegations were first published in The Toronto Star.
3:41 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I am not a money launderer. I do not have any ties to organized or unorganized crime. Those unfounded allegations were first published in The Toronto Star and have spread across the country.Unfounded and inaccurate information takes on a life of its own. We live in a world where sometimes personal responsibility for what is said without proof and then printed is markedly absent. I hope that you will see in my short time with you today, that I am a very strong believer in taking personal responsibility and backing up my statements.
3:41 : JT: Gillani is clearly not impressed with Cdn media. the effect of allegations on his business "devastating".
3:42 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: My business, Mr. Chairman, runs on reputation, personal integrity, and trust.
The effect of these allegations on my business has been devastating. Since April 8, four contracts that I have been working on for the past several years have fallen through.
3:42 : JT: Gillani has lost his girlfriend as a result of this "fiasco."
3:42 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: If I may, I would like to briefly return to the email of September 11, 2009. In that email, I also announced to colleagues that I would be spending four hours meeting my girlfriend's family for the first time-a big step. "Wish me luck," I wrote. This was the woman I hoped would become my fiancée. That plan has been derailed. I welcome your questions. Thank you.
3:42 : Jt: lib Sobhan Coady on the contract.
3:43 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: The only thing we had done was presented Jaffer and Glemaud with information. The Green Rite project was delivered to a govt' body. I received email correspondence from them.
3:43 : Jt: more coady -- clarity -- you talk about a co called RLP energy. did you know Jaffer subnitted it to government?
3:44 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I did not know he had submitted anythign on RLP. RLP is a company that was part of the GPG portfolio. I met with them, I almost had the opportunity to bid on a proposal. RLP got funded from somewhere else.
3:44 : JT: Coady: contigency fees in contract????
3:45 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: These types of agreements are typical in my industry. We used these types of agreements to ensure they can't simply circumvent us. I use the term finders fee.
3:45 : Jt: asking about "success fees". what did you agree to do at dinner with Ms. Guergis
3:45 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: That dinner was completely social. "There was not one iota of business" at that meeting. There was no business spoken whatsoever. Green Wright was brought to me by a man at the Harbour Sixty dinner. I used an agreement.
3:46 : JT: I am on a BlackBerry so excuse typos in my blogging. coady; more on Green rite contract -- Jaffer dinner with Mr. Baird -- did he speak of that?
3:46 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I had no idea whatsoever. I had no idea that Mr. Jaffer met with Mr. Baird at all.
3:47 : JT: Coady: why were you so enthusiastic about your meeting with Mr. Jaffer??
3:47 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I was exicted. We had met, we had agreed we would form an alliance. They would take on companies I brought to the table. There was no underhandness to that. What would have happened after that, I don't know
3:48 : JT: coady: do you know of any proposals that went forward to gov't? moving on to Environment Min Prentice. What was contact enail addresses for Mr. Jaffer?
3:48 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: The only proposal I know about that went anywhere was the Green Wright proposal because I was cc'd on an email.
3:48 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I had no info on RLP. I had no idea the deal had been taken anywhere else.
3:48 Jill Mahoney: We're typing as quickly as possible here. Please bear with us!
3:49 : JT: Coady wqants all correspondence between himself and Jaffer. asking whether he was aware of any other Jaffer meetings with gov't
3:49 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I would be happy to present documents to the committee.
3:50 : JT: Coady: more on Green Rite -- time expired
3:50 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: All correspondence was between me and GPG, think Patrick Glemaud. There were several questions about Green Wright that were sent to Patrick, cc'd to our office and cc'd to Jim Wright.
3:51 : JT: Bloc: you met with him seven times and how did you get to know each other?
3:51 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I was introduced by my cousin, a Harvard graduate. Our relationship is over because he spoke with the Toronto Star.
3:52 : JT: michel Guimond: what services did he propose for you? What did he offer?
3:52 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: They could take any company we gave them that had viability. They would take it to the necessary gov't body that potentially could fund it. Maybe there was a program specifically designed for that kind of project. They would take it through the government maze.
3:53 : JT: Guimond: you were told that they would help you find info on gov't funding? however they could also open certain doors for you in gov't
3:53 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: That would be something they would do on their own. There is no underhandedness or undue influence. It was based on the fact they knew government.
3:54 : JT: Guimond: you knew that Mr Jaffer had good relationship with Mr Harper?
3:54 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I knew he was a former caucus member, or head of the caucus. I knew he had a 12-year career as an MP. I wanted an intermediary who understood gov't, who could take an application to the right place and get it accessed.
3:54 : JT Guimond: What did you need to know about gov't maze?
3:55 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I've lost my wallet and citizenship card. I had to go to the government website and get it back is my example of a gov't maze.
3:55 : JT: Guimond -- after Sept 10 meeting you sent famous "open doors" to PMO email. you said that you were over enthusiastic. at time you believed he could open doors
3:56 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I've said I was way over enthusiastic. I've said sorry, it was my fault. It was an awful choice of words. I got carried away. He's a former caucus member. The PM is Conservative. I'm taking responsibility for it. THere was no wrongdoing on Mr. Jaffer's part.
3:56 : JT: Guimond: in your email you talked about "repeated commitment on the part of Rahim Jaffer"
3:56 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Where did I say repeated commitment?
3:57 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I have the email, I don't remember reading that anywhere. Can someone point it out to me?
3:57 : JT: Guimond: i'll come back to that - when you said overly enthusiastic. ewhat do you mean by that? excited to have someone guide you to PMO??
3:58 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I said that someone who could work through the government maze. It was my fault on saying opening the PM's office.
3:58 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I've said I would provide this committee with every single document from the day I met him.
3:58 : JT: Guimond. you signed contract with Jaffer? provide us with documents? concrete things? what did Mr. Jaffer do for you?
3:58 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I go back to the contract that was signed. They would take contracts to the right gov't body to assess whether they were viable.
3:59 : JT: Jacques gourde -- Tory MP. did you turn to other companies? other than Mr Jaffer's
4:00 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I can give you some background. My father founded a company, one of the largest underwritings by RBC. I grew up around my father, he taught me a lots about gov't funding. He didn't need an intermediary. I'm familiar with standard programs. But it's not my cup of tea. I don't want to spend my time on the nuts and bolts of how a company works and submit to the gov't. I'd rather find an intermediary. ISI -- his company -- has never applied to the govt' for funding. It's too cumbersome.
4:01 : JT. Gourde -- you said that in course of last five years you didn't go after gov't funding but before that did you use other consultants? deal with Cdn consultants?
4:01 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I've probably used U.S. consultants. Most companies I dela with are U.S. companies. The majority of my work was in the US up until 2 years ago.
4:01 : JT: gourde-- are you aware of accountability act and sponsorship scandal?
4:02 : JT: marcel Proulx- lib Mp intervenes when gourde asks about lib sponsorship scandal
4:02 Jill Mahoney: Here's a link to a Globe story on documents from Mr. Gillani.
4:03 : JT: gourde -- asks silly queston about supporting the acct act -- after witness says he is not really aware of it
4:04 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I haven't followed the lobbying act up until about 3 weeks ago. I've heard lots since. To be honest with you, I was completely unaware of the lobbying or accountability acts until this happened.
4:05 : JT: gourde is sharing time with Patrick Brown -- a tory MP from Barrie, who is also one of the best MP hocley players on Hill. Brown is concerned about success fees -- were any success feess ytakked about and aware of gravity of this
4:06 : JT: that shoukd be "success fees talked about"
4:06 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I'm aware of the gravity of hte allegations now. I wasn't then. Success fees: I am the same religion as Mr. Jaffer, which means we have a community tie. We have an inherent trust. If I met someone of the same religion, I would immediately assume as trustful. For example, Green Rite, we worked on these companies. BUt you couldn't find a piece of paper saying I would get a share of this. There's a certain trust here. This guy's my religion. He's in my community, there's an inherent trust that comes with that. I don't need a signature on a document to say that. There were no success fees as you talk about. But there's an agreement saying that if something came to fruition, there would be a deal.
4:07 : JT: Brown: and that's the concern -- if Jaffer had presented expectation to you would contravene the lobbying act
4:07 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: The suggestion came from me. It was me who said we will deal with this at the time a deal comes into play.
4:08 : JT: NDP Pat Martin up: asking about contract and says Jaffer led them to believe relationship very cursory. this idea of finer's fee worries me -- lobbying with intent of reward at end is illegal.
4:08 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I can't comment on that because I'm not an expert. I can't tell you about the lobbying or accountability acts.
4:09 : JT: Martin - you didn't know much about lobbying act but how are you on the criminal Code -- did jaffer lead you to believe that he significant enough ties to help you out ? what did you need him for??
4:09 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, not at all. Nope, not at all.
4:10 : JT: Martin reading from contract -- you went to him because he has special ties?
4:10 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I mean, to me that says he has ongoing business with the gov't and he may have built relationships up. That's his business. Mr. Glemaud is an attorney. He worked for the Justice department. He reviewed this document, made changes to it.
4:11 : JT: Martin: we feel we were lied to at last committee and that puts us in a foul mood -- some laughs
4:11 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I think anybody that knows Mr. Jaffer knows he doesn't really have any influence over policy makers.
4:11 : JT: Martin -- there are 6000 registered lobbyists -- why him??
4:12 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: He's the same religion. Don't you meet people through referrals? This came to me through my cousin. We weren't looking to do anything offside.
4:12 : JT: Martin: when you say this is a fairly boilerplate contract??
4:12 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, this is from Glemaud. Finder's fee agreements are standard. But this is different.
4:13 : jt: Martin: let's say this individual gets you $1 milliom in business -- what's the fee?
4:13 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Finder's fee agreement would give anywhere from 3 to 10 per cent.
4:13 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: The company that was getting funded would be the one to decide.
4:14 Jill Mahoney: Gillani is asked where the offshore accounts rumour came from: The same place every rumour came from, Mr. Snowdy (the private investigator who brought allegations to the Conservative Party.)
4:14 : JT: Martin is trying to figure out where runours of off-shore bank accts come from -- lots of questions i have had -- you have answered forthwrightly
4:15 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Had I known I would have done this myself. I would have done my homework to get the requirements of any given fund.
4:15 : jT: Martinii you can understand how we have trouble that you are naive about lobbying, riules etc?
4:16 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: My father had some dealings with the government. I've learned from him. I haven't asked for gov't money. As a venture capitalist, gov't is too time-consuming. I found a guy who said he could deal with it so I wouldn't have to. What a wonderful deal.
4:16 [Comment From Marlene: ]Gillani has just admitted that he did not know about the Lobbying Act or the Federal Accountability Act - he was not practicing due diligence Wednesday April 28, 2010 4:16 Marlene
4:17 : JT: lib Mp Alexandra Mendes now questioning -- we all have a little trouble understanding that Jaffer and GPG had nothing to gain -- what manner of compensation would have been awarded if Jaffer and his parner Patrick glemaud were successful
4:18 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: As far as Green Rite is concerned, Mr. Wright doesn't acknowledge any lobbying. I thought we had a finder's fee agreement completed with Green Rite. But now I understand we don't even have that. I'd suggest to you that if Mr. Wright got anything out of the govt, he wouldn't pay me. I'll provide you the correspondence.
4:19 : JT: Mendes: ypu said brought Mr. Jaffer together with principal of another company -- Phillip Rowe (sp??)
4:19 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Wow, I don't even remember that. This is in my correspondence? Where are you seeing this? He may have come to the luncheon at Castille. I can check and get back to you.
4:19 [Comment From Justin Morin-Carpentier Justin Morin-Carpentier: ]I'm present in the room, and Gillani is really telling a good story Wednesday April 28, 2010 4:19 Justin Morin-Carpentier
4:19 : JT: siobhan Coady back on -- asking why Jaffer requested contract and more on the RLP proposal
4:20 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: We started to talk with VCs about the gov'ts requirements.
4:21 : JT: Coady: looking at time line -- famous memo of Sept. 11 -- shed more light on your meeting and enthusiasm
4:21 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Personable guy. Well spoken. Chen had an instant connection with him. Socially, they got along great. They spoke a lot that evening. Dr. Chen was impressed.
4:22 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Yeah, it means I read it in an article by Kevin Donovan (in the Toronto Star).
4:22 : Jt: Richard Nadeau bLoc MP -- asking about escorts and whether he owns an escort agency
4:23 : JT: Nadeau -- did you know about cachet Ladies? do you know owners of that agency? and what about issue of fraud in BC?
Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, I don't know the owners of the escort agency.
4:23 : JT: Nadeau: Do you have any financial problems in BC?
4:23 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I can't answer for my partners. Mr. Chair, I don't see the relevance of this line of questioning.
4:24 : JT: Chair -- trying to ensure the relevant issues are adhered to
4:24 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I've been advised by counsel that you would be adhering to that, that members would not ask me about court matters.
4:24 [Comment From Mimi Wlliams: ]He seemed honest and forthwright until asked about Cachet Ladies.
4:25 : JT: Nadeau: so you've told us issues before the courts with your business -- are you a banker to Hell's Angels? have you ever had any relationship with Hel's Angels?
4:25 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I thought I addressed that in my opening statement. I have never said that. No relationship.
4:26 : JT: guimond --Bloc MP: reading from email -- after dinner Jaffer is enthusiastic and wants to be part of team? what do you mean by commitment? what exactly did you mean? -- open the doors to PMO?
4:27 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: To this new partnership. That's what it meant. I've said the statement was an over-enthusiastic statement, but I said it. It's my fault. my words. If anyone should be punished, it's me.
4:27 : JT: Guimond - you talked about an "earth moving experience" -- surely Mr. Jaffer must have said that
4:28 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: You're reading into it what an earth-moving experience means.
4:28 [Comment From mick: ]ignorance of the law is not a defense. The onus lies with him to ensure he is aware of the legislation pertaing to his business dealings. Wednesday April 28, 2010 4:28 mick
4:30 : Jt: Rod Bruinooge, Tory MP -- wants to talk about Acct Act and as a businessman not realizing about lobbying laws etc. you seem not to be aware of these details -- Bruinooge giving him a lesson or lecture in Libs and others who were involved in sponsorship; tories taking a few shots at Libs -- did you get any dollars from Mr. Jaffer?
[Comment From W B Devitt III: ]*sigh* ... Please stop plugging the Accountability Act before asking a question, each and every Conservative panel member... We are aware of it, we don't require a history lesson while time is of importance...
4:30 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, not at all.
4:30 : JT. Bruinooge: anyy access to PM's office?
4:30 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: 100 % I do. I saw no access to the Prime Minister's Office. That's what I said. I don't believe Mr. Jaffer did anything off side. If I do this again, I'll check references and make sure they have good standing with the government.
4:31 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: There's a lesson in that. I believe more CEOs should know about this.
4:31 : JT: Bruinooge -- for your shareholders do you think they deserve more due diligence from you? how have your shareholders been affected?
4:32 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: It's been a cancer. Every significant party that I've dealt with has stepped away from me. My business has been wiped out. I lost my business overnight and I didn't think I was doing anything wrong and I didn't think Rahim Jaffer did anything wrong. But point taken, I should have done more homework, I should have understood this better. I didn't know. I take it upon myself to learn it.
4:32 : JT: Bruinooge: i'm not sure it's a good excuse for your shareholders? how did your father practice business?
4:32 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: My father applied on behalf of his company himself. He didn't use a lobbyist or an intermediary or anything. The honest truth is I didn't know about it. In retrospect, I should have known about it.
4:33 [Comment From JR Arthurs: ]Maybe Mr Gillani should be more shrewd of his business partners. Am I to fell sorry that he is not competent as a businessman?
4:34 : JT: Marcel Proulx, Lib MP -- in the past six months listed as your clients reinvented themsleves as green firms when you were dealing with GPG -- did these change because of Mr. Jaffer? did he ever say "- have knowledge" and "i can hel them?"
4:34 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No. Not at all. Any move these 2 companies made was on their own. We're no longer shareholders of those businesses at all.
4:34 : Jt: Proulx: contacted by rCmP or ethics comm?
4:35 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I haven't been contacted by the RCMP. I've heard the same thing you have, that this is based on Mr. Snowdy's claims.
4:35 : Jt: Proulx -- let's talk about derrick Snowdy -- the private investigator -- what is your understanding on when you met Mr Jaffer --
4:36 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I met Rahim Jaffer on August 25 and I believe Mr. Snowdy says he met me on Aug. 27. Two days later and I was making these ridiculous claims. I met him 2 days prior.
4:36 : JT: Proulx -- Snowdy talked about offshore companies -- Snowdy as a document listing Panama co registered by you?
4:36 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: "It's an absolute lie. 100 per cent absolute lie."
4:37 : JT: Proulx says Snowdy says you have cellphone pics that could be compromising of Mr Jaffer and Ms Guergis
4:37 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No. "And again another complete fabrication." As a private investigator, you'd think Mr. Snowdy would have some proof, wouldn't you? That's his business.
4:38 : JT: Proulx: you met Jaffer throug family -- did you ever anybody say Mr Jaffer had good connections?
4:38 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No. My cousin introduced me to Mr. Jaffer and said he was very impressed by him. Had known him 10 years.
4:39 : JT: Ed Holder? Cons MP -- i come from business background -- you met Mr Jaffer through your cousin -- what is timeframe from when you met him and wanted to put pen to paper in a contract
4:39 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: If you've got a deal that doesn't cost you any money to put in play, then it makes sense.
4:40 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I had a conversation with Patrick Glemaud about this contract I hadn't seen. He said once we got feedback on Green Rite, he would come up with a document for us that would explain what compensation would be provided to whom. Glemaud told this committee that the lobbying registration would be put into place later.
4:41 : JT: Holder -- seems that you guys quickly entered into an agreement. when did you imagine you would get paid ? or pay them?
4:41 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Glemaud said once got positive feedback from the govt, then we would sit down.
4:41 : JT: Holder -- did you believe that Mr Jaffer and Mr Glemaud were lobbyists? is this a hear no evil/ see no evil approach?
4:42 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, I don't. That's how I see it. Again, I have not dove into lobbying laws. I purposefully have not done much research on lobbying laws so I would be as I was. If I thought they were lobbying gov't, I would tell you so. My understanding is they approached one project to the govt. My opinino is I don't think tehy did anything wrong. There was no undue influence.
4:42 : JT: Holder: from your perspective you do not feel they did anythng untoward with PM or any others?
4:43 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, as far as I know.
4:43 : JT: Holder: Trying to imagine what was said at that dinner to provoke you to write that Jaffer could open doors
4:43 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: The amount of resources, time that people are willing to commit to projects. In the biz world, you are looking for people willing to commit to your projects. We got that in the group. Dr. Chen was also excited. The fact that there was a team was very exciting.
4:44 : JT: Guimond: Snowdy, the PI, what are his deepest motivation? why would he say these things about you? 4:45 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Well the only thing is that Derrick Snowdy exists on a shareholder list of a company we were invovled in taking public. We met them in 2009. In Dec, 09, they declared bankruptcy and notified us with a press release in mid January. This is acompany we invested $1.7-million into. Mr. Snowdy is listed as a shareholder. The only link we have is this is a company we believe has done very serious things wrong. There are issues in play. I would ask you to give us time to deal with this, we are in the process of legal action against this.
4:46 [Comment From JR Arthurs: ]That sounds like a very substantial link to me Wednesday
4:46 : JT: Guimond: You do recognize he said some very inciendiary things about you -- why did you want to do business woth Green Rite company?
4:46 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: Green Rite and Wright Tech are the same company, as far as I'm concerned. Glemaud and Jaffer submitted an application to the govt on behalf of them. We saw this happen on the side. We were watching. Not sure what you're asking.
4:47 : JT: Guimond: are you aware of what Jafer did with regard to Green Rite?
4:47 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, all I know is they delivered this package to the federal govt and got information back.
4:48 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I only met with Ms. Guergis once. Sept. 12, 2009. At Sassafraz restaurant during the Toronto International Film Festival. I keep saying this over and over again. I'm not sure why you keep asking the same questions. This was a social dinner. Mr. Chairman?
4:48 : JT: Guimond -- what did you think of Ms Guegis? and do you know Bob Dhillon?
4:49 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I don't know a Bob Dhillon. No, not a Najit Dhillon.
4:49 [Comment From Curious Curious: ]Snowdy is the link in this whole mess.
[Comment From Guest: ]Quote of the week: "Do you know Bob Dylan?" #gillani
[Comment From jeff Arsenault: ]bob dhillon.... too funny Wednesday April 28, 2010 4:54 jeff Arsenault
[Comment From W B Devitt IIl: ]LoL, ditto on Quote of the week
4:50 : JT: Pat Martin -- Mr Jaffer sat where you are sitting now and liked "his ass off" -- you signed a contract after Sept 10 diiner -- since that time you got together long enough to sign a legal binding contract and you paid for him to go to China
4:50 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, that's not true. I agreed to pay for it. Individuals paid for it and they were supposed to submit expenses to me. Nothing was submited. He paid for his own trip. Dr. Chen paid for his own trip.
4:50 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I've told you we were going to get on a plane together on April 13. It was news to me that our relationship had ended.
4:51 : JT: Martin, NDP MP -- did you ever see Mr Jaffer's website? Conservative Party logo? did you assume that he had influence with gov't?
4:51 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No, if I got introduced to anyone at this table I wouldn't assume you were peddling influence.
If it's not going to cost you any more to expand your network, you do it. Common sense business suggests you work with a guy who can help you if it's not going to cost you any money.
4:52 : JT-- Martin -- in your contract says parties agree to profit sharing? does that mean taking equity position?
4:52 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: It depends on a project by project basis. We have this because it allows us to do a deal that makes sense to us.
4:53 : JT: Martin -- here's a scenario -- Marti outlines a complicated strategy of hoping stock goes down in value involving gov't funding
4:53 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: It's a standard strategy in the market. I don't ask anyone to buy in at any rate before it goes public. We take our money and invest it in the private corporation.
4:54 : JT -- Martin -- this sounds like stock manipulation? and discuss this strategy with Mr. Jaffer?
4:54 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: You get that from this contract you're looking at?
4:55 : JT: Patrick Brown: from time line -- the PM's door clearly shut -- bringing in Lib sponsorhsip again? did you have any exchanges with previous gov't?
4:55 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: No.
4:56 : JT: Patrick Brown: We are in era where lobbying doesn't work
4:57 : JT: Holder, Tory MP -- wondering about business card use by Jaffer?
4:57 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: I don't know what to say to you. I just saw him scratch it off and write another number. That was with one person. I don't know if he did it with others.
4:57 : JT: Holder: Do you intend to sue the Toronto Star?
4:57 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: "Absolutely."
4:58 : JT: Lib Coady -- asking about what RLP company does
4:58 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: It's the process to remove mercury from carbon emissions. It's a fairly extensive technology that allows you to reduce significantly the amount of mercury from coal-burning plants. This allows you to do it cheaper and more mercury is taken out of it.
4:59 : JT; Gillani finished
4:59 Jill Mahoney: The committee has gone in camera (private proceedings).
4:59 Jill Mahoney: We'll now take any questions you have for Jane Taber.
5:00 [Comment From Guest: ]man, i don't know where to begin.....
5:00 : JT: We have to leave committee room now as it moves incamera -- waiting to scrum Gillani
5:01 [Comment From Austin: ]What was Nazim's demeanour? Arrogant, confident, nervous?
5:01 [Comment From onceanislander : ]Jane - can you describe the mood in the room? Heels clicking for joy, among opposition members?
5:01 : JT-- Pat Martin scrumming - onus on Pm to come clean and tell us why he fired guergis, says Martin
5:02 : JT: Martin: he thinks it was more about influence peddling than lobbying, says Mr Martin
5:02 Jill Mahoney: Mr. Gillani is approaching the media. He'll read a statement.
5:03 : JT: Gillani is not taking questuins -- reading a statement --
5:03 Jill Mahoney: Gillani: It's been a very long day for me. My appearance this afternoon gave me a chance to put some of my concerns on the record and to answer questions. All this took place within a sanctuary of privilege. I believe it is in appropriate for me to expand on what was said in the committee.
5:04 Jill Mahoney: Gillani says he'll talk to reporters again in the next day or two.
5:04 : JT: Gillani says the contract was signed and he will be speaking out over the next few days because he wants to get his story out
5:04 Jill Mahoney: Jane, can you give us a sense of the mood in the room today?
5:06 : JT: mood in room was subdued -- i think Mr Gillani offered more questions now than answers? he came across as very credible but now the credibility of the Pi Sbowdy is in question as Mr Gillani contradicted or denied much of what he had to say
5:06 Jill Mahoney: What are the implications of Gillani's testimony for Rahim Jaffer?
5:08 : JT: problem for Mr jaffer now because he did have a contract with Gillani -- a contract that MPs are saying would have provided success fees
5:09 : JT: Proulx --Mr Gillani says one thng and it is opposite of Mr Jaffer -- who is lying?
5:10 [Comment From Marlene: ]I agree with Wes - why can't the committee get advice from their legal department on how to ask question so Canadians don't have to sit and listen to partisanship?
5:10 [Comment From VLJ: ]Why did the Tory members feel this was a good forum to score political points by mentioning the sponsorship scandal as a part of the majority of their questions? A scandal that was dealt with years ago has nothing to do with the task at hand.
5:11 [Comment From Tommy Tommy: ]Is there a lobbyist issue here now? Did i hear the contract state payment for lobbying? Or did i mi-hear that?
5:11 : JT -- problem with lawyers, however, is they do charge more than MPs -- higer hourly rate!!
5:12 : JT -- big problem with lobbying, especially since Gillani said he was not aware of the law -- and Jaffer has said he was not lobbying
5:12 [Comment From Bob Bob: ]I agree that based on today's testimony that Mr. Gillani appears to be credible. That is very much in contrast with the picture that has been painted of him in the past. It is very difficult to know who & what to believe.
5:13 [Comment From JR Arthurs : ]again, being unaware of the law is not a credible defense.
5:14 Jill Mahoney: Jane, has Rahim Jaffer officially been called back to the committee to testify again?
5:15 : JT: No, he has not officially been asked back.
5:15 [Comment From hcat: ]can jaffer refuse to attend? can jaffer refuse to attend?
5:17 : JT -- he could but then he would have to face consequences of being summoned and subpoenas.
5:18 : JT: all of the principals have come out to scrum -- view is that Gillani did much better job than Jaffer
5:18 [Comment From George C George C: ]Why was the Sponsorship scandal mentioned?
5:20 : JT: Sponsorship came up as way for the tories to get back at Libs
5:20 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]The partisanship in the Conservative line of "questioning" was appalling. Trying to divert attention from one of their many current fiascoes...
5:20 [Comment From VLJ: ]Is it possible that Jaffer can be charged with perjury for (allegedly) making false statements the other day?
5:22 : JT: I don't know if he can be charged with perjury -- i think it has to be established who is telling the truth
5:22 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]Not only perjury, but depending on the validity of Mr Gillani's documents, unregistered lobbying. Wednesday April 28, 2010 5:22 W B Devitt III
5:22 [Comment From hcat: ]he was far better prepared, and more credible - jaffer lied.
5:23 : JT -- i think the committee has an awful lot to sort out as a result of Gillani testimony
5:23 [Comment From VLJ: ]Sorry, perjury for stating that he didn't use his wife's office for his business but then Prentice stating that he had used his wife's office for his business.
5:24 [Comment From JR Arthurs: ]Did Jaffer take an oath before his questioning?
5:25 : JT -- i do not believe Jaffer took oath
5:25 [Comment From JR Arthurs: ]Gillani also had more time to get prepared, and the benfit of Jaffer's statements
5:25 : JT -- he was very well prepared; appeared to be confident and forthright
5:26 : JT -- good point -- Gillani did have the benefit of the Jaffer testimony.
5:25 Jill Mahoney: Jane, are there any other points you'd like to make before we wrap up?
5:27 : JT -- Thanks so much to everyone who participated and for your comments. we certainly haven't got all the answers and I think this story will continue for a few more weeks?
Jill Mahoney: No kidding! Thanks for joining us, everyone. For more coverage of this ongoing story, please check out our politics page.
5:28 [Comment From DanF in Markham: ]Jane Taber, thank YOU!! You are truly an asset of our Canadian democracy.
5:28 [Comment From Guest: ]i am no fan of Steven but i think this is all blowen out of wack by liberals
5:28 [Comment From JR Arthurs: ]For sure, thanks again
5:29 [Comment From W B Devitt III: ]TY you again for taking the time
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