A former public works official contradicted Thursday Alfonso Gagliano's testimony before a Commons committee probing the federal sponsorship scandal.
Mr. Gagliano, the minister of public works during the time frame of the sponsorship scandal, told the committee last week that he met with Chuck Guité, head of the program, only three or four times a year.
Huguette Tremblay said, however, during her appearance before the committee that the two men met on average once a week. Sources had told The Globe and Mail that she had already testified to those same facts to a closed-door meeting of the committee.
Ms. Tremblay, a former Public Works official who worked directly under Mr. Guité, said that Mr. Guité often met with the Mr. Gagliano, the former public works minister, to discuss the sponsorship program.
Her testimony to the public accounts committee directly contradicts statements made by Mr. Gagliano when he appeared before the committee last week.
"I'm a little at a loss to understand why former minister would think that he could come to this committee and suggest that he'd only met three or four times a year with Mr. Guité. Is there some reason you believe why he thought that would be a believable story?" Conservative committee member Jason Kenney asked Ms. Tremblay.
"I don't know. Like I say, I was surprised to hear Mr. Gagliano say that. But why he did or what was his reasoning behind it, I'm sorry, I have no idea," she answered.
Ms. Tremblay said she inferred from the meetings that the two men were very likely discussing the sponsorship programs.
"Mr. Guité had frequent meetings in the minister's office. ... Very often, when he would come back from the minister's office we were given directives on which sponsorship programs were approved," Ms. Tremblay said .
She said she was told not to question the directives.
"When it came to sponsorships, there were no rules in place....Things were done, contracts were drafted, invoices were made, and no questions were ever asked. So I came to the conclusion that you can't break a rule if it's not there."
The parliamentary public accounts committee is holding an inquiry to try to find out how $100-million in sponsorship program money went to a handful of Liberal-friendly advertising firms, often for little or no value for the work done, as a recent Auditor-General's report found.
Last week, Mr. Gagliano was grilled by the committee over his involvement. He testified that he left all the administration of the program to the bureaucracy. If his ministerial office was ever involved, Mr. Gagliano said, it was to relay requests for sponsorship funding from local groups.
He became upset at his treatment during the meetings. On Thursday, his lawyer sent a letter to the committee requesting an apology for his treatment by Mr. Williams and others, CBC Newsworld reported. Mr. Gagliano is to appear again.
The parliamentary committee will also get access to Mr. Gagliano's daily agenda to verify his statement that he was briefed on the program only three or four times a year.
During Thursday's meeting, Mr. Kenney also asked Ms. Tremblay whether it was fair to say there was political interference in the process.
Ms. Tremblay agreed she felt that was the case.
When committee members asked her whether Mr. Guité was the key person who would decide whether a sponsorship application would get approval, she replied, "On his own, no."
Ms. Tremblay said it was her belief that Mr. Guité was being asked to carry out responsibilities and duties by someone else.
"He was a key player, but you believe he was part of a bigger agenda, a bigger mandate?" Mr. Kenney asked.
"Yes," she replied.
She also underlined the credibility of her testimony by stressing that she was one of only "two or three" bureaucrats in the Public Works department who managed the sponsorship program.
Ms. Tremblay said she believed the program was directed by politicians and intentionally mismanaged. She said she believed the mismanagement occurred in Mr. Gagliano's office. But she added that a higher power also played a role in the now-infamous program.
"We also received requests occasionally from other ministers--and even from the Prime Minister's Office," she said. Ms. Tremblay also mentioned that she had received requests from the former secretary of state for amateur sport, Denis Coderre, who is now President of the Privy Council.
She added she couldn't recall who in former prime minister Jean Chrétien's office called with the requests about the sponsorship program but said it was a woman in the office of his chief of staff, Jean Pelletier.
Both Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Gagliano have been fired for their roles in the scandal in recent weeks.
Ms. Tremblay also testified that there was not much of a paper trail, especially to support invoices in the program.
Ms. Tremblay provided an example to the committee of a time that she asked questions about administrative problems during an internal investigation into the program made in 2000.
She was asked about her specific concerns about a sporting show.
"It was respecting the bills, the invoices coming to us. There were huge amounts to be paid, either for fees or for production and there were no documents to support it."
She also testified that Mr. Guité basically kept his own schedule and that the meetings between Mr. Guité and Mr. Gagliano were never written down on his agenda. She said that most of the direction she received on various aspects of the sponsorship program were verbal.
Ms. Tremblay also told the committee on Thursday that she was ordered not to ask questions about the way things were done.
"On some occasions, I questioned the directions and I was told not to ask questions and just to pay the invoices or prepare the requisitions."
During an explosive Question Period later Thursday, opposition MPs used Ms. Tremblay's information to fuel their fire over the scandal.
They jumped on Ms. Tremblay's statements that Mr. Guité's office had received requests from the office of Mr. Coderre.
Mr. Coderre stood up in the House of Commons and flatly denied that he had any dealings with Mr. Guité.
"There are limits on the lies that can be said," Mr. Coderre said. I never saw Chuck Guité in my life. These are lies and they are attacking me. That's not accurate."
Conservative MP Mr. Kenny replied: "Mr. Speaker, it's the Alfonso Gagliano defence all over again. When caught, deny."
The committee hopes to have an interim report on its evidence so far in the scandal completed sometime next month.
