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Debate brings opposing views to light

Globe and Mail Update

Tuesday's election debate came down to a battle between two frontrunners, as Liberal Leader Paul Martin and Conservative Leader Stephen Harper sparred over their opposing views on social issues, health care, fiscal policies and foreign affairs.

The English-language debate also contained a number of focused attacks on the Liberal handling of the sponsorship scandal and the Conservatives' controversial positions on social issues.

The televised event was seen as a crucial point for Mr. Martin after the sharp drop in Liberal popularity during the first half of the campaign, to the benefit of the Tories. The parties are now within one point of each other in the polls.


Mr. Martin and Mr. Harper — both polished and prepared for a chance to speak to the Canadian public before the June 28 election -- used the forum to emphasize strong differences between the Grits and Tories.

Emerging from the debate, the leaders said they had managed to score important points and underline what their parties stand for.

"This election is about choosing... a government free from 10 years of Liberal waste, mismanagement and scandal — a government that will be accountable, a government that can be trusted," said Mr. Harper in his opening statement.

Thus, Bloc Quιbιcois Leader Gilles Duceppe and NDP Leader Jack Layton were often left in Mr. Harper and Mr. Martin's shadow. Mr. Duceppe used his energy to go after Mr. Martin on issues including the sponsorship scandal, while Mr. Layton said a vote for either Mr. Harper or Mr. Martin would force Canadians to choose between a leader who would cut social programs and one who presided over a party accused of dishonesty.

The NDP leader also took issue with Mr. Martin's claim during Monday night's debate that there are only two parties that have the possibility of governing.

"What kind of arrogance gives you that proposition?" Mr. Layton asked Mr. Martin. "In fact, Canadians are giving up on your party....They do not want to reward you with a fourth term at bat, Mr. Martin."


CAMPAIGN TRACKER
DAY 25

DECISION 2004 PAGE

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Leaders debate brings opposing views to light
Leaders drop restraint and go for blood
Martin camp never expected to be playing defence now
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Ibbitson: Passionate and ruthless, Martin looks like he's fighting to survive
Winsor: Good shows but they mean little in the end

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"This is your campaign of fear and falsehood to discover up for your disgraceful record of scandal and mismanagement." Stephen Harper to Paul Martin during the English debate.

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-MARTIN in Brantford, Ont., Waterloo (Debate)
-HARPER in Niagara Falls, Ont., Windsor
-DUCEPPE in Quebec City, Montreal

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However, demanding an answer from Mr. Martin on the sponsorship scandal was one of the dominant issues in the debate.

Almost immediately, Mr. Duceppe pushed Mr. Martin for an answer on who was behind the scandal.

"Who was the head of the sponsorship scandal? Who were the ministers who knew and are they still members of the federal cabinet? And finally, will he make public the report on the dirty money that the Liberal party received from their friends in the sponsorship scandal? Yesterday, you refused to answer those questions. You talk about transparency. You have to be transparent."

Mr. Martin, who sounded confident in his response, said his party has done everything it can, including setting up a commission of inquiry.

Mr. Duceppe said Mr. Martin has not yet provided any satisfactory answers to Canadians—saying at the end of the debate that he was still waiting for answers.

Fiery start

The debate got off to a much more fiery start than Monday's French-language debate, with Mr. Martin slinging arrows right off the bat at Mr. Harper and his position on the use of the notwithstanding clause on issues such as abortion.

Tuesday evening was perhaps Mr. Martin's last chance to portray Mr. Harper's position on social issues as dangerous to a large populace.

But because of the new debate format, there were relatively few opportunities for Mr. Martin and Mr. Harper to face off on issues. The debate, held at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa, began with four opening statements from each leader followed by questions from journalists which they each answered in turn. The format also allowed for short, one-on-one debates between the leaders during the course of the two hours.

All four leaders were dressed in dark suits and they took their jobs seriously Tuesday, shying away from lighthearted remarks or jokes. They were all well-rehearsed, and none made any serious gaffes.

After an attack early on by Mr. Martin that Mr. Harper would take away a woman's right to choose, Mr. Harper was quick with a retort.

"This is your campaign of fear and falsehood to discover up for your disgraceful record of scandal and mismanagement."

Mr. Layton and Mr. Martin were quick to pounce on Mr. Harper's perceived Achilles heel -- his party's stance on social issues like abortion rights and same-sex marriage.

The NDP Leader accused Mr. Harper of being willing to hide behind free votes on fundamental social questions.

"Are you going to stand by if a free vote in Parliament takes away a woman's right to choose?" Mr. Layton asked. "Are you going to stand by if the rights of same-sex couples, lesbians and gays, are put in to the back of the bus and do absolutely nothing hiding behind a free vote, or are you willing to take a position?"

"I find this hiding behind free votes to be quite shocking from somebody hoping to lead in this country when people want to know answers."

Mr. Harper denied the charge, saying that a Conservative government has no plans to table any legislation on abortion.

Social issues

"Likewise, I fully support the equality of gay men and lesbians in Canadian society," Mr. Harper said. "I think the place we disagree is on the traditional definition of marriage and whether that should be respected."

In the next exchange Mr. Martin said twice that Mr. Harper would take away a woman's right to have an abortion.

The Conservative leader said he "absolutely would not."

The leaders also sparred over the use of the notwithstanding clause to overrule the courts on issues such as abortion or same-sex marriage.

Mr. Harper said again that he would use the clause only in very specific circumstances, such as to overrule a court decision on child pornography.

"On the issue of the notwithstanding clause and marriage, I actually agree with Mr. Martin, who suggested we use it to preserve the rights of churches to perform traditional marriage," Mr. Harper said, referring to a vote in the House of Commons a few years ago in which Mr. Martin voted in support of traditional marriage.

Mr. Martin said his party would never invoke the clause.

Mr. Layton accused Mr. Martin of "hiding behind the Charter" and pushed him for an answer on whether he would support the traditional definition of marriage.

On foreign affairs, Mr. Harper said it is in Canada's interest to keep relations positive with its neighbour to the south, calling the United States our "best ally and biggest customer."

"This government disagreed with the Americans in Iraq," Mr. Harper said. "I did not disagree with them. We have to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. And that's what this government did and I thought it made a number of our trade problems worse."

Mr. Martin said he has worked on improving the relationship sine he took office.

"I have largely re-established our relationships with the United States, but I don't believe you have to do that by going on bended knee," he said.

The war in Iraq was also a major discussion point during the debate, with Mr. Duceppe and Mr. Layton saying that Mr. Harper would have led Canadian troops into the country.

Mr. Martin criticized Mr. Harper for writing a letter to The Wall Street Journal apologizing to the United States for not helping out in Iraq.

"You said that Canadians were wrong. Well let me tell you Mr. Harper, Canadians were not wrong, you were wrong," Mr. Martin said.

Fiscal record

The leaders also attacked Mr. Martin's fiscal record during his time as finance minister and Mr. Harper's Tory platform, which calls for $58-billion in tax cuts and new spending over five years.

Mr. Martin said that while the Liberals and Tories have similar revenue projections over the next few years, "the differences arise in spending. The fact is that there is a $50-billion black hole. Mr. Harper has said he is going to find $50-billion."

Mr. Layton got in a shot at both leaders over their fiscal plans.

"But Mr. Martin, your past is exactly like Stephen Harper's projected future. You brought in the biggest tax cut in history. You were the one that precipitated the huge cuts people are now grappling with."

Mr. Harper said that the Liberals are planning to grow the size of the government in every department, and said they would control spending.

On child care, Mr. Martin described Mr. Harper's plan as one for the well-to-do. "If you make money, I'll give you money to a tax deduction to take care of your child," Mr. Martin said in deciphering Mr. Harper's plan for tax deductions.

"If you're a single mother or you've got a child with special needs, I'm not going to give you anything."

Now that the debates are over, the leaders are looking at the next two weeks as their chance to show Canadians whom to choose.

With voters going to the polls in less than two weeks, the latest Ipsos-Reid survey for The Globe and Mail and CTV shows Mr. Harper and the Conservatives in a position to win a strong minority government on June 28.

A seat projection by the polling firmed showed the Conservatives would take a potential 123 to 127 seats, the Liberals would take 95 to 99 seats, the NDP 22 to 26 seats, and the Bloc a potential 60 to 64 seats.

Harper confident

At a press conference following the debate, Mr. Harper said while he didn't see the event as a "boxing match", he felt he was able to emphasize his positions. He said that it is becoming more clear that Mr. Martin is resorting to "scare tactics" about the Conservatives to try to win points from voters.

"I believe that the comments of Mr. Martin, his attacks on me, are even more incredible than in the past. He has refused several times to answer my questions about accountability, about the results of his policies."

He said after Tuesday evening he believes his party has made some gains in Ontario, "and I believe that after tonight we'll have the possibility to even increase those gains."

Mr. Martin said he felt he was able to do what he set out to do—provide Canadians with his view of the future and said he wasn't worried about scoring points but rather getting his message out.

Wednesday, he will be campaigning in Ontario, but would not answer a question on whether Tuesday's debate performance would be able to save his campaign.

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