Marcus Gee, 8:07 p.m. EST: It's a bit rich for Jack Layton to say he wants young Canadians to get ready for a 21st century economy. This from the guy with an archaic, semi-socialist program that springs from the belief that Canada reached a state of perfection in the 1970s and should never change.
Marcus Gee, 8:10 p.m.: Oh, and I love this idea of grandfathering same-sex marriage. So that gay couples who got married in the last couple of years could stay married but others never could wed, thus creating 2 categories of gay citizens. Very bizarre.
Mary Janigan, 8:12 p.m.: This is truly a very dicey issue for Stephen Harper. By grandfathering existing marriages, he is not standing on principles. And the Charter remains a potent weapon when invoked in a debate.
Marcus Gee, 8:13 p.m. Duceppe's right: this issue of gay marriage is settled, like it or not. We've had a free vote, We've had court decisions across the land. We've had people marrying now for a couple of years. And Harper is going to turn the clock back? He can't -- and he more or less admitted it when he said he wouldn't use the Notwithstanding clause.
Sean Fine, 8:15 p.m. If a Conservative party won't use the notwithstanding clause on gay marriage, when would it use the notwithstanding clause?
Sean Fine, 8:19 p.m. I'm still trying to figure out why Layton stresses getting results for PEOPLE. Are the rest of them working for plants and animals?
Marcus Gee, 8:19 p.m. Layton's clearly discriminating against plants and animals.
Mary Janigan, 8:20 p.m. It's interesting though how the two issues so far that they are dealing with -- gay marriage and gun control -- really are serving to differentiate the party positions. I was quite dubious about this format but so far it is working in terms of policy explanations.
Sean Fine, 8:24 p.m.: Touche to Harper for mentioning the Supreme Court on health care. Martin was the one who talked of the Charter and the court as unassailable. Serves him right.
Marcus Gee, 8:36 p.m.: Martin's right to say that he is reacting quickly and thoroughly to the sponsorship scandal. But, but, but .... this is the biggest scandal in recent Canadian history. If the Liberals don't get thrown out over it, what will they get thrown out over?
Sean Fine, 8:39 p.m.: Of course, I didn't mean that personally.
Mary Janigan, 8:42 p.m.: They are all so much more plausible and smooth than the rabble that they were in the debates last year. Funny how good behaviour makes everything from mild class warfare to decrying corruption sound so civilized.
Marcus Gee, 8:44 p.m.: Perhaps it's a good thing to have mild and decorous debates. Folks are so sick of politicians yelling at each other in the House.
Mary Janigan, 8:49 p.m.: But they are being quite argumentative. It's just that the lore of how to behave on television in Canada .... cooler, more decorous ... is cloaking their clashes.
Marcus Gee, 8:49 p.m.: Martin says parties that break their promises should be punished by voters -- a shot at Dalton McGuionty and his famous no new taxes whooper?
Sean Fine, 8:50 p.m.: Hey, we've got elections to punish politicians who don't keep their promises. Or sometimes, to punish those who do keep their promises. Mike Harris, anyone?
Marcus Gee, 8:50 p.m.:TV is a cool medium -- Marshall McLuhan.
Mary Janigan, 8:51 p.m.: ...but politicians are nnot.
Sean Fine, 8:51 p.m.: That's a petard he might be hoisted on. Didn't he promise to fix medicare for a generation? (Or was that in a generation?)
Marcus Gee, 8:51 p.m.: Or for a geriatric?
Sean Fine, 8:52 p.m.: I wonder what McLuhan would have made of Stephen Harper?
Marcus Gee, 8:53 p.m. Harper still hasn't overcome that weird mannerism of breaking into little grins all the time when he's making a serious point. Quite off putting.
Sean Fine, 8:54 p.m. Layton's talking about PEOPLE again. He's very passionate about PEOPLE.
Mary Janigan, 8:54 p.m. I like the way Mr. Duceppe actually pointed out that it is occasionally impossible to keep promises. Nice intrusion of reality.
Mary Janigan, 8:54 p.m. Did you catch the words minority Conservative government? Penance.
Marcus Gee, 8:55 p.m. I love this: the Bloc is not their to block. They're not blockists. They just want to break up the country.
Sean Fine, 8:55 p.m. Is it good for Quebec? Aren't Quebeckers embarrassed to vote for such parochialism? (I know the answer to that one.)
Mary Janigan, 8:57 p.m.: Decorous is becoming a motif in this debate. Good grief.
Sean Fine, 8:57 p.m.: You've got to love a country that allows the blockists and breakists equal time in the debates.
Marcus Gee, 8:58 p.m.: This parliamentary decorum debate is tiresome. Eveyr parliament I know of is raucous, including the Mother of Parliaments at Westminister. Politics is a blood sport. and Harper is right: It's very frustrating for the Opposition when the government stonewalls.
Sean Fine, 8:58 p.m.: Agreed. it's turning into interest-group appeasement... "women are civilized" "don't make scapegoats out of the media"... praise be to all.
Marcus Gee, 8:59 p.m.: Duceppe's right. When there's a lot of shouting in parliament, we cover it. Otherwise we yawn. No wonder people think parliament's a circus. We only show them the gory stuff.
Mary Janigan, 9:00 p.m.: I love the truth-telling that Duceppe has adopted tonight: Question period should be answer period.
Marcus Gee, 9:01 p.m.: I hate this pharse "institutional care" that Harper uses. Shows his feeling about daycare. He makes it sound like some kind of prison.
Sean Fine, 9:01 p.m.: I prefer to call it "stranger care."
Sean Fine, 9:04 p.m.: I'm with you. I don't mind a bit of gore. Of course it's theatre, and doesn't amount to much, most of the time, but I don't want everyone agreeing all the time. I want someone with a vision, and the courage to try to sell that vision.
Marcus Gee, 9:05 p.m.: Martin says he wants choice in daycare, but there's nothing in his plan for stay at home parents. Harper's got him there.
Sean Fine, 9:06 p.m.: Well, if the demand is there (more money in people's pockets), wouldn't that help create more supply of daycare?
Marcus Gee, 9:06 p.m.: Unless people spend the money on, say, beer and popcorn.
Sean Fine, 9:06 p.m.: Careful what you say, my friend...
Mary Janigan, 9:06 p.m.: Mr. Harper is now doing penance for his careless remarks about Atlantic Canadians. He is stressing his roots. Folksy does not work for him.
Marcus Gee, 9:07 p.m.: Ya, but isn't Preston Manning right when he writes in today's paper that you don't want a warm, cosy bet-pal type when the furnance is broken. You need someone who knows how to fix furnances.
Sean Fine, 9:08 p.m.: I agree. But notice that ol' Presto didn't say what Harper's brilliant furnace-fixing ideas are. So he's a trained economist. We're supposed to turn the country over to him? I didn't find Presto convincing in the least.
Mary Janigan, 9:09 p.m.: I am beginning to get really exasperated with the fact that Mr. Layton keeps mentioning the corporate tax cut. It is almost as if he is going back to the old NDP theme of spending wealth, not creating it.
Sean Fine, 9:09 p.m.: Well, he's finally accepted that people don't want tax increases. So I guess he's got to convince the hardcore he hasn't sold out completely.
Marcus Gee, 9:10 p.m.: I liked it better when Harper spoke frankly about Atlantic Canada and how folks are using government as a crutch. Now h'es just pandering, as he is on so many issues.
Sean Fine, 9:11 p.m.: Pandering seems to be the theme tonight. Embrace the questioner.
Marcus Gee, 9:11 p.m.: Ya, he says the corporate tax cuts wouldn't create single job. What rot. Companies with a lower tax load can hire more people.
Sean Fine, 9:11 p.m.: I can't wait to see whom the media dub the winner of this debate.
Mary Janigan, 9:12 p.m.: It is fascinating how every discussion about trade commences to sound threatening.
Marcus Gee, 9:13 p.m.: Layton says that all Ottawa does is talk to the US about complaints over trade. What's he want us to do, declare war?
Sean Fine, 9:15 p.m: On a slightly different note, maybe Canada needs a truly arrogant leader again. Arrogance is often found in great leaders but everyone in a debate bends over backwards to be likeable. I prefer arrogance, I think, to all this sweetness and likeability.
Mary Janigan, 9:16 p.m.: Not sweetness. just very civil war.
Mary Janigan, 9:17 p.m.: They are starting to break the format and interact. Interesting.
Sean Fine, 9:17 p.m.: Harper wouldn't send Canadians to Iraq, and Martin would. Who is appealing to anti-Americanism now?
Marcus Gee, 9:18 p.m.: Iraqis have just gone out to vote in their millions, defying terrorists threats, and these guys are squabbling about who did and didn't want to send Canadian troops in three years ago. We're an awfully parochail country sometimes. I wish someone would say: We may not have sent troops, but we support the Americans in their noble attempt to help the Iraqis build a democracy.
Sean Fine, 9:19 p.m.: Everyone is quoting Cellucci's book. I can't see Duceppe taking that book into bed somehow.
Marcus Gee, 9:19 p.m.: Good for Harper to condemn Martin's reckelss war of words with the Amercians.
Sean Fine, 9:20 p.m.: Well, where's Harper when you need a position like that? Quoting page 165 of Cellucci. Proud as hell. Some conservative.
Mary Janigan, 9:21 p.m: Oh no. Mr. Duceppe has come back to the fiscal imbalance. And we were already into the murky business of tax cuts.
Sean Fine, 9:22 p.m.: Duceppe and Layton are like flat characters in a play. Every time they walk out on stage, they say the say damn thing. And the audience laughs, because flat characters are innately funny. But who wants to vote for such flat characters?
Mary Janigan, 9:23 p.m.: Do you think there is a category of Canadian that has been overlooked tonight in terms of what will be done for them?
Sean Fine, 9:23 p.m.: 45-year-old journalists.
Marcus Gee, 9:24 p.m.: Still, it's sort of nice having an acutal leftist on the scene, such a rare sort of character in today's world. It's like seeing a man with a top hat walking down the street, an amusing anachronism.
Sean Fine, 9:25 p.m.: Well, at least Layton spoke the p-word, poverty. I don't hear anyone talking about it much any more. Does that mean we've got the problem licked, or that we've got the problem ignored?
Marcus Gee, 9:26 p.m.: Did you see how they actually turned off his mike when he turned to Martin to ask a question? This really is a fun-killing format.
Mary Janigan, 9:26 p.m.: It's hard for politicians to explain that the tax system is a tool for behavorial control.
Sean Fine, 9:27 p.m.: Well, hold it. Is there any reason they can't make themselves relevant? IE: in a modern, globalized, competitive world, how do you preserve the safety net and emphasize social mobility while also allowing for wealth creation and the optimum level of taxes?
Marcus Gee, 9:27 p.m.: Duceppe makes an excellent point: How come the Liberals, who said the cupboard was bare in last February's budget, can suddenly afford billions in tax cuts?
Mary Janigan, 9:28 p.m.: They just cannot explain that in 15 seconds.
Sean Fine, 9:28 p.m.: But I just did.
Mary Janigan, 9:29 p.m.: Scoring political points is more important.
Sean Fine, 9:30 p.m.: Have they talked about the issues you guys care about? I mean, really talked, beyond the surface I-know-your-pain stuff? The Jack Layton earnestness thing?
Marcus Gee, 9:30 p.m.: Duceppe says we should break Canada up into separate countries like Europe, then pool our sovereignty like Europe and work together. Isn't that a bit like federalism -- what we have now?
Marcus Gee, 9:33 p.m.: Martin gives a great, passionate response to the unity question -- his best minute yet. Let's recognize Quebec's dynamism and distinctness but let's work together as a nation as we have since 150 years ago.
Sean Fine, 9:33 p.m.: Stephane Dion had a passionate and beautiful answer to Duceppe when he met with us the other day. He talked about Quebeckers accepting that deep inside they feel Canadian, and their children will feel the same way. Something like that. Maybe that looks false; I suppose he had a better way of putting it. But such passion. Duceppe gave them all an opening, and it was taken up rather tepidly.
Mary Janigan, 9:34 p.m.: It is interesting that Martin really shone in his answer. But now we are tied up in the clauses of the clarity act.
Sean Fine, 9:34 p.m.: Is this the first time we've heard from Harper in a while? Or was I deafened by the sound of my own typing?
Marcus Gee, 9:35 p.m.: I don't know, but is Harper's only response to separatism that we should respect Quebec's provincial rights and run a clean government in Ottawa? Talk about tepid.
Mary Janigan, 9:36 p.m.: It's a real debate. They are snapping the format.
Sean Fine, 9:36 p.m.: That's better. "This is my country." (Paul Martin) now we're talking.
Marcus Gee, 9:37 p.m.: Bravo Martin: You're not going to take my country away with some trick, Duceppe. Great, stirring stuff.
Sean Fine, 9:38 p.m.: It was good, yes, maybe even stirring; but i still think it was from some talking points someone gave him.
Mary Janigan, 9:39 p.m.: I liked Mr. Harper's direct reminder to Mr. Duceppe: There are legal obligations on both sides. So Mr. Duceppe cannot treat the mere discussion of Ottawa's action as a violation of the province's pride.
Marcus Gee, 9:43 p.m.: Harper is looking rather wan in contrast to Martin's passion in the last few questions -- he's SO cool and rational that he often seems robotic.
Sean Fine, 9:45 p.m.: Words, words, words. A brilliant riposte from Duceppe.
Mary Janigan, 9:45 p.m.: Harper is stifling himself on an issue he feels passionatley about -- Western alienation -- in order not to seem scary.
Sean FIne, 9:48 p.m.: I know the press clippings say Harper is scary, and the key to victory is not being scary. But does that mean he can't be himself? That he's got to put a sock in it every time he's got something to say? People hate phoniness. They can smell phoniness a mile away. No, he's not a baby-eater, as Peggy Wente said the other day. But what is he?
Marcus Gee, 9:48 p.m.: Duceppe, the patronizing so and so, says we have a "nation-building" job to do in Canada. We have a nation already, thanks Gilles, and it includes Quebec.
Sean Fine, 9:49 p.m.: Shhh. I like this question about leadership and vision. Yes! Sell us on something that we may not even know we need.
Mary Janigan, 9:50 p.m.:Funny how this question, last evening and tonight, elicits such bland answers. Maybe canada 30 years from now is just impossible to sketch in one minute.
Sean Fine,9:51 p.m.: Harper ceded the stage too quickly on his vision. Maybe I was typing again. . . what did he say? Martin's words were ringing. I only heard a quick clang from Harper. Seriously, what did he say?
Mary Janigan, 9:51 p.m.: Platitudes.
Sean Fine, 9:52 p.m.: This flat character is more tiresome than funny.
Mary Janigan, 9:54 p.m.: I think you are right. Paul Martin is coming alive in this debate -- and it is working.
Marcus Gee, 9:54 p.m.: Martin was very good about the merits of multiculturalism and social cohesion -- cliches, perhaps, but cliches become cliches because they're true.
Sean Fine, 9:54 p.m.: Harper was good too about how we'd be "irreducibly diminished" if Quebec went out the door.
Sean Fine, 9:55 p.m.: Oh my God. Harper used the exact phrase -- "social cohesion" -- that Martin uses ad nauseum. The field was open to him... what is canada's greatest strength? The people and their social cohesion. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks a lot.
Sean Fine, 9:57 p.m.: Harper never rose a notch. He was either cool in a hot medium or hot in a cool medium. Or something. Mcluhan would know.
Sean Fine, 9:57 p.m.: I want to hear how Harper closes out. Shhh.
Marcus Gee, 9:58 p.m.: Either way, he was very flat. Martin by contrast can be very effective when he's passionate about something. He's not always Mr. Dithers. He showed that tonight.
Marcus Gee, 9:59 p.m.: So: How do you think Harper finished?
Mary Janigan, 9:59 p.m.: I agree. Mr. Harper has made civility look boring.
Sean Fine, 10:00 p.m.: A bit too cute at the end from Harper. Too high-school debating club. And how come no one says anything about Hanukkah?
Marcus Gee, 10:01 p.m.: Ya, I didn't like the formulaic -- ''the Liberals won't, the Liberals can't" etc. -- thing.
Mary Janigan, 10:01 p.m.: Mr. Harper was too bland. Mr. Duceppe was consistent. Mr. Layton harks back oddly to class divisions. Mr. Martin was more effective than he has been for asome time.
Sean Fine, 10:04 p.m.: I remember when he came into see us a couple of years ago. We asked him what plan he had to take people by their lapels and say, come along with us. and he had an answer. a good one. not every word was scripted. but there was a vision there. it seems to have dribbled away somewhere.
Marcus Gee, 10:04 p.m.: My impression is that Martin came out ahead tonight. Like or not, debates are often remembered for just a moment or two, and he had by far the best moments -- particularly his ''you won't take away my Canada" attack on Duceppe. Harper managed not to look scary or sarcastic but failed to break his image as a somewhat detached and over-rational type.
End of discussion
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