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How global warming goes against the grain

MARTIN MITTELSTAEDT

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 7:44 PM EDT 25/02/07

Experts worry food shortages triggered by crop devastation are a more immediate threat than flooding, Martin Mittlestaedt finds ...Read the full article

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  1. J Luft from Calgary, Canada writes: Oh! Another scary global warming story! How unique.
  2. spicydoc deluxe from blue skies, Canada writes: While we're on the topic, here's an interesting piece from that neocon apologist rag The Toronto Star:

    http://www.thestar.com/News/article/184676

    I have no idea why the Lib-friendly media aren't flogging this more.
  3. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    Of course warmer temperatures will lengthen the growing season for much of the world, especially in Canada, which will increase food production. Global warming (if there is such a thing) is not all doom and gloom.

    Remember the glass is half full!
  4. A Smith from Canada writes: Let's have the current Canadian population reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 20%. Then we'll double our population! Great idea.

    Oh, and also lets all replace our existing houses with energy efficient houses. We'll ignore the greenhouse gas emissions that are produced by the manufacturing of the shingles, insulation, doors, windows, wiring, plumbing and cutting of the wood. Not to mention the ashphalt for the driveway, the bricks and/or siding and the concrete in the foundation. That's environmentally free, right?

    Let's also ignore all the planes in the sky. But we'll focus on shutting down drive-thrus at fast food restaurants. Cause that produces a lot of greenhouse gas emissions, right? Do yourself a favour and find out how many more airplanes are in the sky now than 25 years ago. And understand how much fuel is required just to get a plane into the sky.

    Folks, population control is the low hanging fruit when it comes to the environment. We also need policians who can make the connection between the economy and the environment. Why? Because if the unemployment rate goes up, environmental policy will go out the window (very fast) in the interest of people being able to have a job.

    End venting.
  5. David Simon from Canada writes: So in other words agricultural conditions in Canada will IMPROVE with global warming. Why isn't 'Canada's National Newspaper' not applauding. I say Stand up for CANADA
  6. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Take a quick look at the location of continents on the face of the planet. Any shift north of wheat growing areas opens up more land to grow wheat on it. There is almost continous landmass consisting of North America, Europe and Asia. How do these people do their math??
  7. jiri Z from Canada writes: The 'small but influential group of experts' is merely creating an environment for increasing the price of grain and other commodities.

    Follow the money and you shall find the farmers.
  8. James Cyr from Balmertown, Canada writes: Climate change is a metaphysical fact of nature and will occur regardless of what we do or think. Why wouldn't irrigation methods or other methods of bringing water to dry areas work? There is one word that is rapidly becoming overused and therefore meaningless. That is the word 'experts'.
  9. Harold Harper from Canada writes: spicydoc deluxe from blue skies, Canada writes: While we're on the topic, here's an interesting piece from that neocon apologist rag The Toronto Star:

    The Star a Neo-con rag???? Step back from your keyboard now please and call 911 and get some HELP!!!
  10. Brian Klappstein from North Bay, Canada writes: What utter BS. I used to think that emotionally flavored responses were counterproductive, but I now realize that that is the prevailing language of the debate.

    Regards, BRK
  11. Stephanie MacDonald from Toronto, Canada writes: Warmer temperatures will not necessarily make land more productive. In particular, most of the comments here have missed the point that replacing the nutrient rich soil of the southern agricultural zones with Canadian Shield and tundra will still lead to a decline in agricultural output. Seeing this agricultural catastrophe as a 'glass half-full' situation for Canada - which it most certainly is NOT - while other nations face starvation is ignorant and downright immoral.
  12. Andrew E from Rednecksville, Alberta, Canada writes: spicydoc deluxe from blue skies, Canada writes: While we're on the topic, here's an interesting piece from that neocon apologist rag The Toronto Star:

    http://www.thestar.com/News/article/184676

    I have no idea why the Lib-friendly media aren't flogging this more.

    If you consider the RED STAR pro-Conservative, I'll bet you think Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka were Block Parents.
  13. Brian Klappstein from North Bay, Canada writes: Stephanie of Toronto:

    Spare us your righteous moralizing. Billions are being spent on climate research which may be in the end nothing more than a exercise in politically-correct futilility. Ask the people of Africa which is more important:

    1. Malaria
    2. AIDs
    3. Starvation
    4. Global Warming

    Do you actually think that they will agree with your perspective that your self-adsorbed environmental angst qualifies as real in their world?

    What arrogance the environmental movement has to suggest that this is the most 'serious issue' to currently face mankind. Maybe in their 'latte-sipping' GTA world it is.

    In the end, the left never get it. It's always about more government, more regulation, more control.....more.....

    Meanwhile the corpses pile up in places like Darfur.

    Regards, BRK
  14. aloysuis paczjoskteyochuk from Canada writes: Karol Karolak,you are a genius doing your math.Wheat growing on acidic soil.
  15. Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: Colin Freeze had the Kadhr story to milk... Mittelstaedt has Global warming and all catastrophic consequences to go with while Simon Houpt b*tches about MoMA's director's pay... Next we should vote Al Gore perhaps...
  16. Graham Parker from Ottawa, Canada writes: The more comments I view on Climate change the less confidence I have in the Canadian electorate. I would like to address the apathy and pathetic responses of James Cyr, J. Juft, J.C Davis and Jiriz. Z which I am wasting valuble charachters pointing out. First of all, Mr. J. Cyr just because climate change is an inevitable occurance (which is occuring prematurely thanks to human acitivity; check the scientific journals because it is not found in the mainstream media) does not mean we should attempt to reap the maximum profit we can of it. This ideal disgusts me. Mr. J Luft, step outside any major Canadian city any summer day and take some nice deep breaths in of pollution. How about you take your entire family out, that would be a lovely family outing. J.C. Davies and D Simon, lets forget about the other 8.6 billion people who share the planet with us. Yeah! Foresake them all, we are going to make a killing off agricultural exports! Man I feel great! I can't wait till they come after us for all our fresh water because they have none. And dearest Mr. Klappensten, the latte sipping GTA crowd possessed the insight because the average African could not escape the being chased/executed/censored into even publishing/conducting the requisite reasearch demonstrating the impacts of climate change on Africa. In 20 years your idiocy will been evident for all to see, it is too bad millions will have to pay with their lives to demonstrate that the scientist were right all along. I forgot to mention that you are all climate experts, so what you say must be right and every individual that reads this must take your opinion as is. Well, I can only hope they don't. And remember, there is no economy without the environement genius.
  17. Brian Dell from Edmonton, Canada writes: Thomas Malthus, Club of Rome... dire predictions that never came true, largely because of human ingenuity with respect to increasing yields. What's different this time?
  18. J Law from Canada writes: Graham Parker from Ottawa. Please lead the way for us. Quit your job, turn off your furnace and lights, stop driving your car, unplug your computer give up all the articles you own that have been made/built with the help of fossil fuels and just lead us to this wonderful land of perfect environment please. I bet when you get there you will find David Susuki with his diesel spewing bus.
  19. matt mills from Canada writes: Oh....my.......God..........Now , not only am I going to cook to death, I am also going to starve. Where's Al Gore, I need a hug...........
  20. Dave Medich from Windsor, Canada writes: ...... I wonder if the computer model they are using is on a MAC or a PC. We'll have to ask Reverend Gore or Saint Suzuki. Macs are way cooler. I know because I saw the commercial.
  21. R. Carriere from Canada writes: From the article quoted above: Once again showing the Liberal Party truth merchants: I would ask then former Environment Minioster Dion what he has to say about the following:

    Full article: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/184676

    Quotes from Eddie Goldenberg, chief advisor to former PM Jean Chretien:

    'The previous Liberal government ratified the Kyoto Protocol knowing Canada wasn't ready to take the tough measures needed to address climate change and would likely miss the deadlines for reducing emissions, says a top adviser to former prime minister Jean Chrétien.'

    ''Nor was the government itself even ready at the time with what had to be done,' he said in a speech to the Canadian Club of London, Ont., the text of which was provided to The Canadian Press.'

    ' Still, Goldenberg chided Liberal MP Mark Holland for his ``unfortunate comment' about shutting down the oil sands.

    'It might be easy political rhetoric but it ignores one fundamental reality, namely that Canada for a long time to come will need oil sands production and lots of it. Our economy and our standard of living depend on it.'

    So there you have it! The Liberal lying machine unmasked and outed!
  22. David Bakody from Dartmouth, writes: Having been raised in the market gardening industry and a grandson of a very prominate Burlington Ontario market gardener and sold his produce on the once famous Hamiton Market for years, I understand land/soil very well. I remember well the feel of the earth and have noticed the change in our soil for years. Before y'all write these words off so easily best you talk to your elders who have worked the land before you were born. Mother earth provides life to each and every creature and all creatures have been placed here under our care and custody, and quite frankly we have not treated them well in all respects. Should the creatures die of disease or lack of food they lie in the land that we grow our cropps that feed our children and we eat ourselves. Perhaps this issue should deserve soom thought, think about it next time you look at a plate of food served to your one of resturaunts. to be continued........
  23. John E7 from Salt Spring Island, Canada writes: Hmm if corn becomes harder to grow then making ethanol (the salvation of tomorrow) is going to be expensive ;)'
    Besides, We will be needing corn to feed our bellies as the population of our mudball doubles...
    I like the idea of a hydrogen economy myself.
  24. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada writes: Ho-Hum... Another 'Sky is falling Story' from a small but influential group of experts.
  25. R. Carriere from Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada: To continue on in your vain, I can remember taking a sociology elective course( not to worry I graduated in business...) in the late 1960's. The Prof was adamant that the world was doomed concerning population. At that time, there were about 3 billion people on the planet and him and many of his 'brothers of ultimite wisdom' predicted doom and gloom for the world if the population ever reached 5 Billion-the world would be over. That same gang told everyone that could hear to stop having children and to spread the word around the world. They even had funky population control slogans coupled with typical liberal mantra. Now, the world population will hit 7 billion shortly and it looks like we survived. Does this ring a bell? While bad air can never be a good thing, I wonder if this hype, fear, and scare mongering to the nth degree by the media is warranted. Man and government (sometimes God and Mother Nature) has always found solutions and I have problems with scientific models that stretch out 43 years from now. On last note, how quickly we forget those same science people who predicted 'the worst hurricane season ever' for 2006 because of 'global warming.'The result was there was basically nothing to report! Where are these guys now with their ever so accurate computer and blow hard models?
  26. A Moron from Canada writes: Another pack of jealous 'scientists' after their 15 minutes of fame. I recall predictions from the fifties saying we'd have flying cars by the year 2000 and only need to work 20 hours thanks to computers. Diabetes is going to finish us off before global warming or mass crops losses. Have a nice day.
  27. Douglas Campbell from writes: The level of reactive anger and ignorance here is appalling.
    We base our economic and taxation policies on theories that are far less developed than our climate models.
    Global warming is happening, is accelerating, and we know (roughly) why.
    It is the professional duty of experts in various fields to extrapolate trends, analyze likely scenarios, and inform the public.
    What we do about global warming is a matter for political debate, but why are people attacking the analysts who make the projections?
    Of course not all the projections are perfect, and the relative risks of various possible catatastrophes varies.

    I am very concerned about agriculture and fear our current long supply chains and minimum inventories mean the global food system is prone to breakage. It takes years to bring land into production, and most of the belt of glacial scraped shield/taiga/tundra in the Northern hemisphere will take thousands of years to become productive.
    As for 'survival of the fittest', very few urban Canadians would be among the winners.
  28. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: Denial is not a river in Egypt. And it isn't a State of the Union either. @B Klappstein: you sound like your fellow-townie Mike Harris (Ontario Premier). Can you say 'Walkerton'? @J. Luft (and other Calgarians): Source of Bow River is Victoria Glacier above Lake Louise. What will you drink when there is no Victoria Glacier? @ Karol Karolak: temperature is not the only consideration - soil quality and composition is a (trivial, I admit) factor. Why are the most productive wheat-growing regions where they are? Oh, yeah - the soil. @Don Adams: if you are going to use evolutionary terms, get it right. Evolutionary fitness/success is determined by REPRODUCTIVE success, not physical characteristics. @R Carrier: and your point is? Window dressing asside, Harper remains the property of the Calgary Oil companies. More important is the detail that hter corporate sector did a very good job of delaying action and regulation. Supported by Reform/Alliance/CPC c- funny that. The problem is real, and the deniers here are a big part of the problem.
  29. Ray C. from Richmond Hill, Canada writes: R. Carriere, I also remember the fear mongering courses taught to us in university. It was the late 70's, and the Club of Rome report, with computer model projection predicting the end of the planet. I remember quite depressed after some of the classes. Looking back, how naive was I. Then in recent times, it was the Y2K in the computer industry, how the world economy was going to fall apart. A bit older and 'wiser', I knew better that these so called 'experts', and true enough, nothing happened, other than billions of dollars was spent. Now, I support environmental issues, but always with a big grain of salt.
  30. Klaatu Barrada-Nikto from Gort, United States writes: I read an article the other day which stated that because of 'climate change' , the Sahara desert is actually shrinking; but what was more unbelieveable about it was that the eco-socialists were pontioficating gloom and doom over this!
    And Brian Klapstein is correct - Malaria is and has been the number 1 killer in Africa for decades - 26 million die each year worldwide.
    Thank you Rachel Carson.
  31. Claude Fraser from Canada writes: We have had a vegetable garden all of our lives. Our parents before us. We are finding, as the farmers are finding, the intense heat of several weeks is ruining the gains of the garden. The growing season may be longer...we frequently have an earlier frost than years previously. But, the last several years have had a week or two of intense heat and lack of rain. You cannot get the plants to survive. Watering is not the same as a natural rain...and one has to consider the use/conservation of water.
    In my lifetime, I have seen the changes of the weather cycle.
  32. Claude Fraser from Canada writes: R. Carriere: Enjoyed your revisionism re Eddy Goldberg. Where was our current gov't on the issue of global warming during those years? Did they hold the environmental warnings of the NCP and Green Party? NO. Actually, they were raising money to fight the Kyoto Accord and didn't believe in the science of global change (either).
  33. Russ Kehoe from Canada writes: Andrew E, since more land area of Africa becomes desert each year, I'd say the Africans should be very concerned about any climate change.

    R. Carriere, J Law, spicydoc, J Luft, et al - The usual liars telling the usual lies, LMAO
  34. R. Carriere from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky from Toronto-and YOUR point is? Oh yea, we need good soil......wow! ' The problem is real!' Wow again! You remind me of my prof.....

    You also state, ' Harper remains the property of the Calgary Oil companies.' Prove your defamatory statement! If so, why didn't your beloved Chreien / Martin, and then Dion act? Go read the quotes from Eddie Goldenberger before you spout off:

    Full article: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/184676
  35. Don Adams from Canada writes: R. Carriere, aren't these boards great? Lots of laughs. Most posters here appear to be either young college students, or young post grads, none of whom have developed a lick of common sense yet. Their eyes are still filled with stars. Either that or '60's hippies and wannabes. Peace, Love, Save the Earth, Save the whales, Free Love. I got a laugh out of those idiots as well..... when I was only 20!

    Oh well, most of these people, by time they've matured and are in their mid 40's will do a total reversal of their thinking. They'll then be voting Conservative too :-)
  36. Michael Bowen from Halifax, Canada writes: Isn't Eddie Goldenberg a lobbyist/consultant for oil-related businesses now? Perchance that influences his memory? I myself use 'advisors' in my work....it doesn't mean they actually know what I'm thinking about an issue....I often say things to provoke their response, it doesn't mean that what I'm saying is actually what I'm thinking about the issue....I'm interested in their response.
  37. R. Carriere from Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada: gotcha ya! gotcha buddie-one day, they'll get it!

    Claude Fraser from Canada: Can't argue with you there. We had do-nothing Liberal Party and the other guys that didn't believe. You do state this present government ' they were raising money to fight the Kyoto Accord.' Although the concept of fighting Kyoto would have been right, can you point me to a link or story that backs your claim of actually raising money to fight the Accord? Just curious if you could provide.
  38. Klaatu Barrada-Nikto from Gort, United States writes: Don Adams, you are so right!
    The young can be forgiven for their idealism - it is a noble trait, but one that sadly lacks first-hand knowledge or experience (commonly referred to as wisdom).
    What irks me are the birkenstock-wearing, tree-hugging, granola-eating, 50-and-60-something eco-socialists who have spent their lives raping and plundering the Earth for financial gain ('I've got a huge investment in an open pit strip mine in Etritrea which is poised to make a bundle, but I can rationalize it away by going downtown on Saturday to join in a protest against a new local landfill'), and now spend their days telling everyone else what to do and how to live.
    And then there are the rest of us - spending our days at work, trying hard to raise a family and just make ends meet thanks to overtaxation and regulation because of said eco-socialists and other assorted leftwing types.
    Winston Churchill once said, 'a man who is not a liberal at 20 has no heart; but a man who is still a liberal at 40 has no brain.' (forgive the paraphrasing.)
  39. Claude Fraser from Canada writes: R. Carriere: The story that cited the letter was in the Globe and the Star, I believe, two weeks ago. The form letter from the Conservatives to their membership requesting money to fight the Kyoto Accord. Well covered.
  40. J K from Canada writes: Don Adams you’re right it’s all about survival of the fittest. Only the fit should be allowed to survive. And while we are at it we should get rid of all of our hospitals. Those sick dying people are just a drain on society. If they aren’t fit enough to survive in this world there is no point in helping them out. We could save a fortune on healthcare.
  41. Claude Fraser from Canada writes: R. Carriere: The article can be reached through the Globe archives. Article written by Doug Fraser. Mr. Harper (then) sent out a fundraising letter in 2002 asking for money to fight the Kyoto Accord and referred to the Accord as a 'socialist scheme'.
  42. D Kearney from Halifax, Canada writes: I got a few sentences into this article and could not go any further. I am so sick of the doom and gloom articles printed by the globe. One thing which makes me sad is 18,000 children die every day in the world because of hunger and here we are spending billions on what is probably a natural warming cycle of the earth (during the medieval warming period the planet was warmer than it is now; during the 1970s 'experts' were warning us of the next ice age, when GHG were RISING).
  43. D K from Canada writes: .C. Davies from Canada writes:
    Of course warmer temperatures will lengthen the growing season for much of the world, especially in Canada, which will increase food production. Global warming (if there is such a thing) is not all doom and gloom.

    No it won't. Remember the dust bowl in the 20's?
    Warmer does not = more crops necessarily. You still need water.
  44. Tim Hearn from edmonton, Canada writes: Speaking of crop devastation, this next bit is from a Newsweek article in 1975

    'The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually... Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states. To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world's weather. The central fact is that after three quarters of a century of extraordinarily mild conditions, the earth's climate seems to be cooling down. Meteorologists... are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic.'

    Sound familiar?
  45. D Young from Canada writes: Not that I buy into all the doom and gloom, but if the chicken little crowd believe the ocean levels are going to rise and cause flooding and islands to disappear and at the same time believe there will be huge drought regions, why not just take the water from the rising oceans and put them on the dry lands. That shouldn't be too hard a project for all these brillient scientists. Who knows, maybe some of them could still get rich off it.
  46. R. Carriere from Canada writes: Claude Fraser from Canada: Thanks- I'll go have a look.

    'sent out a fundraising letter in 2002 asking for money to fight the Kyoto Accord and referred to the Accord as a 'socialist scheme'.

    Are you saying KYOTO ( not the climate situation) is not a 'socialist scheme?'
  47. ralph sutton from Simcoe Ontario, Canada writes: No food = starvation = war pestulance = death . Great ! We either destroy the world economy and cause massive world war or we starve to death via global warming . Sounds lovely! I think I am going to get drunk and stay that way ! Why? Because 2/3 of the world isn't going to do a thing about it and the 1/3 of the world is dead locked in a mind set and way of life that traps them in this mess . Plus no one any where in this world has any real glue as to what to do . Everything else is a dead end philosophy . Time to change , but to what ? Hey Globe and Mail you seem to harang us with this issue every day , you must know what to do ,,,,,Not! Your reporting is fear mongering and pointless , because Canada doesn't live in a bubble, we need a global effort and Haarper sure as h--l isn't going to cut it alone or at all! So either offer a solution or shut up!
  48. David Bakody from Dartmouth, writes: Claude Fraser from Canada: You are correct, having played in the fields of rows and rows of fresh veggies and even having tomatoe fights on the way home from school seems like yesterday, things have changed indeed, oh yes that good crick with good brook trout I could catch with a worm, a hook/line and willow branch is long gone also. hmmm they were good! On another topic the Canadain voter, votes on the issues of the day, as defined by the leader and the media. It seems like yesterday when our National debt was 48 billion and our dislike for Brain Muroney that we threw the whole lot out but two. Of course those educated people who paid attention understood the science of global warming but for the average voter was working just to survive and could not relate so the issue did not make sense. Health care and education is always an issue but Canadains again do not understand until after the election how important it is. One of sad pastimes of retirement is being able to attend far too many funerals and visiting friends in hostpital while wanting to help build a better life for our now grown children and grandchildren. Global warming is an issue that is now on the world stage and may cause our politicans to look at it is not bad. Those fortunate to have not only the wisdom of age but education should bring constructive thoughts to the table and leave partisain politics at the door. Not easy some times as even cool little old me can get upset with the whole lot some days.
  49. Frank Enstein from Canada writes: Graham Parker, I couldn't have said it better myself. The self-centeredness and greed on this site is appalling . Survival of the fittest- ppplease! I guess our society is full of navel gazers who have yet to comprehend that we are part of a global community, but I guess that concept is much too complex for most.
  50. jim bo from muskoka, Canada writes: so! let me get this straight
    tar sands = bad
    ethanol = good
    now let me get this straight. if we can 't grow enough corn and grain for the people of the world. why are we pushing ethanol as a green fuel of choice. it is 33% less efficient and takes massive amounts of water and farm land to grow and then distill. indonesia, brazil and many other countries are cutting massive swaths of trees and rain forest to get on the ethanol bandwagon. aren't trees good for co2 emissions?? OH! the madness
  51. Hugh Campbell from Canada writes: Frank Enstein: 'The self-centeredness and greed on this site is appalling.'

    If you visit these blogs regularly you'll see the same group of a dozen or so posters, our Denialist Pantheon, repeating their mantra within each thread and across all threads, over and over again. In the early days of the internet, when discussions were done primarily through Usenet, newsreader programs had what was known as 'kill files' which made it easy to remove their kind of background noise. With Web-based boards and blogs, we're obliged to play Whack-a-Mole with them, fun for a while but it gets a little tedious. Also - with their visibility on these boards, it's hard to believe their claim that they're actually the backbone of our economy, supporting the rest of us treehugging radical commie students and retirees.
  52. Clem Brown from Metcalfe, On., Canada writes: Can we please stop with this Kyoto scam. Temperatures have risen 0.6 degrees C and we should all panic. The increase in temperature according to real climatologists (not ex 'I wanna be president, and fruit fly experts) without Kyoto and with Kyoto is another mere 0.6 degrees C. When an article such as this is published with the preponderance of of adverbs such as 'might', could, likely, may, you have to wonder why it was published. Any one of us could write an article on any subject as long as we used the politician like jargon of this piece of propaganda. What the Hell is wrong with journalists today. Too lazy to do some real legwork that they have to find some noncommittal hack, to suppose, so they can quote them. Don't you just love how there are 'think tanks' and 'umbrella groups' of think tanks. Wow, they must be the smartest of all, they are an 'umbrella group'. Quick, pick a cause, set up multiple money sucking groups, appoint a president and CEO, rent a limo, appear knowledgeable, find a hack to quote, someone buy an umbrella, hurry we need to appear important, appoint another executive, get him a Lexus, put some plastic Al Gores in liquor stores with a looney slot in the head, establish an 'umbrella group' appoint another CEO, quick, empty the Al Gores into my pocket, Damn the torpedoes, I need the money, er, to save the planet. Hurry, someone pay for my offsetting carbon credits so I don't look like the pig that I am. I can crap in my hometown river as long as I buy sewage credits from China. Why shouldn't we all run with the bulls? It's good to be Gore'd.
  53. Don Adams from Canada writes: JK from Canada. What a comment.... dripping with sarcasm. Oh well.

    Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO believe we should put some people down. People with terminal cancer who want to die. People who've become total vegetables. We keep them alive, spend millions on them when there's just no chance they'll get better. Why? Because of some stupid thoughts due to religion. Many people are much better off gone.... better for themselves, for society. Life is not infinite. I watched my aunt die, slowly, in imense pain.... she wanted to die, but The Law said NO. Took away her rights.

    I see my 90 year old mother in law in a nursing home. A vegetable. Has to be spoon fed, bathed in bed, wearing diapers, doesn't know what's going on around her, doesn't even recognize her own kids.... just stares vacantly at the wall. this has been her life for a year now. Know what it does to the living, her children? This is right? There's quite a few like that in this particular home. And yes, if they were gone, it'd be a big saving to society. A blessing for her, for her children, and for society.

    So take your piety and sarcasm and just shove them where the sun don't shine!
  54. Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, Canada writes: No need to worry about what's coming first. It's coming from all directions at the same time. Anybody heard about the fate of the honey bees (not to mention frogs) and what it means for the food chain and potential food shortages? Heard about the new diseases that affect and may soon kill plants, trees and us, human beings, with no cure in sight? Flooding has been extensive, in recent years, has devastated large parts of living quarters on every continent. All those extreme phenomena (droughts, floods, twisters, hurricanes) will only increase in number, intensity and frequency, will even be experienced where they never were. And concurently, given those phenomena are all related. Remember the jokes 'everything is in everything... and vice versa', 'everything is related to everything... and vice versa'? Well, after a good laugh, time has come to realize those are no jokes. A broad picture of those interconnections should get reported extensively in media like the Globe. For interconnectios, why not delve a little into James Lovelock's 'Gaia'?
  55. Hugh Campbell from Canada writes: jim bo: 'if we can't grow enough corn and grain for the people of the world. why are we pushing ethanol as a green fuel of choice.'

    Refreshing to see some productive comments here! Full disclosure of pros/cons will be needed for effective public discourse and policy development, but compromises will inevitably have to be made.

    GRIST has done a special series on biofuels:

    http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/12/04/biofuels

    Also, the Carbon Mitigation Initiative at Princeton U. has developed a 'Stabilization Wedge Game' which 'illustrates the scale of emissions cuts needed in the future, and provides a common unit for comparing the carbon mitigating capacities of various energy and storage technologies.'
  56. B Littmann from Cantopia, Canada writes: Call it Satori Zen's very own Domino Theory of Climate Change....
  57. Most Conservative Posters Are Hired Hacks from Toronto, Canada writes: It's disturbing that the more evidence that comes in about climate change and the higher the percentage of people who accept the science and want to do something; the more denialists come onto this website and post their climate change denial propaganda. The proportion of denialist comments here on this website are a gross overrepresentation of their proportion in the Canadian society as a whole. It makes one wonder how extensive the oil lobby's propaganda machine is. I mean get real guys... your comments are so numerous that you are all completely unbelievable. It shows that your opposition to climate change is politically or monetarily motivated.
  58. Josh K from Edmonton, Canada writes: Frank Enstein/Graham Parker: I know what you mean, I keep telling myself I have to stop reading these boards because they're so depressing. So much ignorance and selfishness. If these reflect, at all, the state of the opinion in our country, we're in pretty deep trouble (or at least doomed to continue our slide from international leader to international irrelevance/51st state status).

    Like Don Adams: I can't believe you had the utter gall to suggest that it's okay for other nations to starve while Canada prospers because it would be the 'survival of the fittest.' That's probably the single most ignorant statement I've ever seen on these boards (and I've seen a lot of J Luft). Explain what's makes Canada 'fitter' than regions where climate change will decimate crop production. Are we 'fitter' because we live in a more northern climate? Are we 'fitter' because the emissions that indulgent societies like ours have produced the very emissions that appear to be damning the people in those regions?

    Wake up. 'Survival of the fittest' hasn't been in any way existent in the Western world for the last 100 years. If it was, there's no way a knuckle-dragger like you would have made it to your wise-old, Conservative-voting age.
  59. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: R. Carriere from Canada writes: 'Orest Zarowsky from Toronto-and YOUR point is? Oh yea, we need good soil......wow! ' The problem is real!' Wow again! You remind me of my prof..... You also state, ' Harper remains the property of the Calgary Oil companies.' Prove your defamatory statement! If so, why didn't your beloved Chreien / Martin, and then Dion act? Go read the quotes from Eddie Goldenberger before you spout off:' Well R., actually you do need appropriate soil to grow any particular plant - including wheat. 'WOW' indeed. As for the Club of Rome and Malthus, I would say that they remain correct overall, and that there is more than one way for population pressure to cause problems - often several problems converge synergistically. OOPS. As for Harper and who owns him: He lived in Calgary, the NCC still has HQ in Calgary, Manning is still a member of the 'Calgary School' as is Harper, and the main business in Calgary is - oh yeah - Oil. And Harper 'got religion' (so to speak) on the environment when? But that didn't stop him from cancelling another environmental programme 2 weeks ago. And even today, his core supporters - like you - deny there is any problem. Another 'WOW' bears fruit. Speaking of the Liberal record, we note the lack of any real, credible national opposition to them. But we did have Reform and Alliance - the Alberta version of the BQ. Niether Reform, the Aliiance nor big business believed there was a problem and acted so. No one to force action or hold anyone to account. 'WOW' again. R. Carriere, you and your ilk are the same sort that were surprised by the Dustbowl of the 30's, despite many warnings that it would happen. An even more forceful and emphatic 'WOW' comin right at ya. I quote a 70's icon who was a (deadly accurate) satire of you and your kind: 'Stifle Yourself'.
  60. B Littmann from Cantopia, Canada writes: MCPAHHfT says '[..] the higher the percentage of people who accept the science and want to do something'.

    How does that jive with Dion's standing in the polls, despite Harper's bumbling performance? After all Dion is all CC, all the time.

    No trouble getting tickets to hear Suzuki talk either...

    Face it: CC has been oversold, both science and politics (i.e. Kyoto).

    It is time to pipe down the rhetoric and start working on sustainable solutions.

    I don’t think “You’re with us or you’re with the Big Oil Companies” works for you anymore.
  61. Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, Canada writes: I would not press my luck too much, Littmann (from Cantopia, Canada), if I were you. Like it or not, you're one of the dominoes! There is no room for anyone, besides the chain of causes, even for extraterrestrials.
  62. Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes: It amazes me how the environment can adapt. In this case, causing a famine to reduce the infestation of human beings on the planet. (yes I also include myself in that statement). It is brutal, but nature often is.
  63. Larry Robinson from white Rock, Canada writes: As I sit in White Rock by the sea on Feb. 23 with snow coming down having just finished skiing at Cypress Mountain on Vancouver's north shore where the staff declared it the deepest snow ever and having just read another new source that quotes another group of credible scientists that are running sun activity models and predicting a dramatic earth cooling by 2012-2015 - I am yawning and going for an orange juice. I'll be inside today, West coast drivers on snow ranting about global warming. Ugleeeee.
  64. Marc D from Canada writes: The utter lack of ethics or morality shown by such comments as 'survival of the fittest' and 'it's good for Canada' makes me wonder if the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (vhemt.org) doesn't have a good point. Thousands of years of supposedly ethical development, and as a species we're still at the screw-thy-neighbour stage. J.Luft exemplifies this attitude, with his head in the (oil) sands, science is all bunk revisionist attitude that it's all a hoax just to stop him from getting rich. What's even stranger is that such comments are coming from the very same people who also spew out views directly cribbed from religious texts that, superficially at least, make altruism a virtue.

    I dare say I don't know where to start. Just because it's warm enough to grow food further north doesn't mean that we CAN grow food, given that the land itself isn't exactly high quality. Even if Canada and other northern countries could grow more food doesn't mean that the transportation problems to get that food to those who need it would suddenly solve themselves. Transport issues made worse by the sheer greed of people who would rather people starve to death first so they can make more profit later, and the governments who think this attitude is perfectly justified.

    As for the one with the list (malaria/aids/starvation/global warming), there are causal relationships between each. This report shows a link between global warming and more starvation. Altruism is dead in the countries that make the most food, so they insist on being paid full price for what they've got, which empties the treasuries of the countries hardest hit. Without funds, they then cannot afford to purchase (there's that lack of altruism again) the necessary anti-malaria or anti-HIV drugs, nor can they afford to invest in their infrastructure (education, better housing) to prevent these problems.
  65. Normand LaBine from Winnipeg, Canada writes: If it wasn't for the deniers, there would be no debate? Maybe. The real referee is entirely apolitical - Mama Nature. I'm sure she's way past PMS, but she can be merciless when it comes to saving her own a$$! J. Luft and probably other Westerners have had the honour of driving across Southern Saskatchewan, but maybe not during sandstormy summers. At least, they've seen what prehistoric Drumheller looks like. You can't grow tumbleweed in either! You're windshield looks like it got sandblasted in one of those sand storms. And Drumheller's prehistoric terrain is a good reminder of what happened in previous epochs. If you don't like the science, look at where we've been. Every spring, or even within a week or two, our Manitoba farmers will be coming out to comment about whether there's enough moisture content or too much, to estimate their crops, seed purchases, and make their loan proposals for seed and equipment. It was whacky for the last few years. Its russian roulette, running a farm out here. Without taking Climate GHGs in as a factor! Farming needs consistency to be justified. If you own or rent several 2,500 hectare sections, you have to be able to count of Her Worship (Ma Nature), or get mama government to sustain you. She ain't happy, and she don't vote. In fact she doesn't play our game, she runs it! Good for vote-sucking politicians, bad for the rest of us.
  66. M Horon from calgary, Canada writes: Computer modelling of long term climate patterns is in it's infancy and can not lend anything more than fluff to intelligent debate. The current IPCC data suggests only tiny increases in temperature over the next hundred years, this is heavily downgraded from the previous estimates, the data appears to be trending downward, as has the mean increase in sea levels data.
    The World Agroforestry Center is a credible institution, it was actually started by a canadian in the 70's, currently it's intelligence is largely american, heavily funded by the europeans of course. Most of the worlds credible science on climate change is american. As is the science the latest IPCC report is founded on.
    One very interesting point in the article that deserves attention by the Kyoto pornographers relates to ethanol. Ethanol is being pushed by these junkies as a key item in lowering greenouse gasses, ethanol is distilled from grain! What will the world eat? Especially if the breadbaskets of the world are on the verge of catostrophic dessimation (at least according to a computer model). Ethanol is not a viable solution on a global scale folks. Neither are windmills or solar or sequestration. There are only two solutions, we either stop using energy, or we switch to nuclear as much of europe has.
  67. M Horon from calgary, Canada writes: Don Adams, as I approach 50 I look back fondly to my idealistic youth. I may not have been very practical but I was learning about life. I agree a lot of these posters have the heads so far up their backsides that they cant see the light of day, but come on, cut them some slack. Better yet, keep challenging them like you are. One thing we can always bank on about kids is that they are self centered.
  68. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky from Toronto- I usually don't answer posts filled with nothing more than, well, nothing, but since it's Saturday afternoon, I'll have a little fun with your type of ilk and bite. WOW! What a thread of diatribe! You and your ilk are actually fun to read. And then this beaut. from you,'Speaking of the Liberal record, we note the lack of any real, credible national opposition to them.'
    That's the best I've read in a long time. Blaming the Liberal Party non-action and rhetoric and outright lies and stupidity because of the opposition at that time? Your ilk had majorities and if you weren't so busy at the coffers, you might have acted. Oh well, think I'll go out and get a nice big breath of fresh ocean air. It is magnificent here today. Wish you were here! By the way, I have a great many Ukranian/Polish friends-they are terrific people-caring-fun-and do they know how to have a wedding reception......
  69. Joe Mead from Winnipeg, Canada writes: If you build a theory on top of another theory, what do you get? Any intelligent person that knows stats knows you get nothing but useless junk. The Liberal funded G&M continues its slide down the intelligence scale.
  70. M Horon from calgary, Canada writes: Orst Z, who crapped in your corn flakes? Only a few of the oil companies in canada are calgary based, in fact only a few of the oil companies in canada are canadian. Exxon, Shell, Mobil, Total, KinderMorgan, Anedarko, Duke, Williams, to name a few are either american or european. Canada has encouraged the world to come here and exploit our resources on our behalf. Did all of this happen it the past year? Did NAFTA bring the europeans here?
    Steven Harper is a conservative from Calgary. Of course he sees the value in canada's resource based economy. Without it we would not have enough money to keep Quebecers from living in tarpaper shacks burning bunker C or wood to heat them.
  71. M Horon from calgary, Canada writes: John Mead, the Liberal funded G&M? If the liberals didn't have their MP's paycheques written by our federal government they would not have enough money to exist outside of their imaginations.
  72. S Rankin from Chatham, Ontario, Canada writes: Human history is replete with civilizations which in their hubris wrongly assume that they could exploit nature without consequence. Every single one of them crashed and disappeared. Many of the comments on this page perfectly illustrate that our civilization is no different. Unless we change our ways the same will happen to us eventually. Historic examples include Easter Island and the Mayas. There have been many others. We North Americans are pampered and take much for granted. It will shock many to learn that we all face starvation with just two back to back crop failures. Think it will never happen? It is not as preposterous us you think. The ice cores show that climate has been relatively benign over the past few thousand and that the recent past is the exception not the rule. A good book (2005) on this subject if you wish to educate yourself is “Collapse” by Jared Diamond.
  73. Larry Robinson from white Rock, Canada writes: Norman Labine - I spent 50 years on the Prairies and my father spent 66. You forget that the Palliser expedition that surveyed the Prairies declared the Palliser Triangle (roughly Shaunavon to Rosetown to Calgary) was an uninhabitable semi-desert. During my father's youth, the entire southern Prairies was sem-desert during the dirty '30's and many, many farmers abandoned their farms and moved. He tells the story of attaching a piece of wood at the bottom of a binder to collect the individual grains that fell off the stem because they were so stunted and dry. They would have starved if not for relief food (dried apples and fish) being sent out from Eastern Canada. In the late 80's we endured incredible springtime heat and wind, so much so that when my parents returned from the West coast on Hwy. 3 and hit a dust storm at Lethbridge that carried on well past Medicine Hat - they made the decision to move to Vancouver Island. My father said, ' I lived through this once but never again'. Today we have a generation that has not endured any major life trauma (WW II, drought, etc.) and they expect consistency and predictability. They also think human beings control everything. We have an egocentric, inexperienced population that is having a hissy over any variation in the climate and consequently goes running to any snake oil salesperson that says 'we can change the world'.
  74. M Horon from Calgary, AB, Canada, Canada writes: S Rankin from Chatham, Ontario, Canada
    Yes this is true, from Babylon to Harappa, to Rome the life cycle of a civilization appears to link directly to it's ability to and then inability to feed itself. Population expansion, warfare, weather, and technology have all played heavily in this. So does this knowledge mean we should be fatalistic and not do anything about it?
  75. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky from Toronto I am going to repeat myself; get in your car and drive to nearest forest. Walk deep into woods so nobody can see you. Find a big stick and start hitting trunks of trees with it as if you were hitting all these people that hurt you when you were a kid. Do it until you are tired, do it every day for a month. It will take away the edge and people will stop pissing on you in private and on public forum like this one. Look your problem is not unique it is called PTSD, you just try to replay the drama of your childhood and that is why you keep on trying to piss everybody off so they can piss on you so once again you can feel like a real victim you once were. Cheers man, as your shrink he is going to tell you same thing.
  76. B Littmann from Cantopia, Canada writes: S Rankin, the fate of the Mayas is hotly debated, but the evidence that environmental destruction decimated their civilization is thin, to be charitable. Which leaves Easter Island. Set against hundreds of civilizations, Jared Diamond’s story, while entertaining, seems to be a one-off thing.

    Most civilizations that we know of were simply replaced by a new one. This would negate environmental destruction as the underlying problem, since the successors would have to cope with the very same environment. If you want to use history for guidance, losing a war seems to be more consequential...
  77. James Cyr from Balmertown, Canada writes: Graham Parker--congratulations on missing the point of my post. My post had nothing to do with anyone 'making a profit'. I suggested that irrigation methods be used to offset the effects of climate change in areas that may be affected. In other words, the ingenuity and the brains of men and women will be used to overcome any adversary, either man made or metaphysical. It is true that 'nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed', and this is the lesson that still has to be learned in a few areas of the world.
  78. Michael H from Edmonton, Canada writes: J Luft-I'm not convinced that your bright enough to know what is good or bad about CO2. Try this experiment-take a kilo of dry ice (frozen CO2) and have someone seal you in a closet with it. Then have them come and release you six hours later. See what happens. Here's a hint. We will no longer have to endure your abusive posts.
  79. Cup of Tea from National, Canada writes:
    Excellent, well researched piece Martin.

    Bravo!