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Earlier Q&A

Michael Valpy on the making of the Vimy myth

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 11:57 AM EDT 10/04/07

Michael Valpy took your questions ...Read the full article

This conversation is fully-moderated What is moderation?

  1. Henry Allen from Toronto, Canada writes: By writing his article, Michael Valpy's intent may have academically noble, and may even be factually correct. However, the article's poor timing and ill-considered choice of words showed poor judgment.
  2. Tom Langford from Montreal, Canada writes: MYTH so now Mr.Valpy is telling me a myth does not mean something is false?

    IS THE WHOLE WORLD ON DRUGS!!!!

  3. garlick toast from mill village, Canada writes: one man's myth is another man's religion.
  4. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, Canada writes: Yes, Tom Langford, it is true that to describe something as a myth is not necessarily to say that it is contrafactual. Rather, it means that the point of the tale is not whether or not it is true but, rather, that it tells a story of some significance to the people of whose tradition it is a part.

    Personally, I'm not so fond of myths.
  5. R M from Canada writes: It is utterly pointless to make comments here as the Globe and Mail Editorial staff selectively print only what they want .In other words they have simply defended one of their own. Namely Micheal Valpy. His 5 answers have not quelled the anger expressed by the majority of commnetators.. The Globe need not have wasted our time with his answers. I daresay that the Globe and Mail editorial staff were very selective with the questions asked of Mr Vaply

    The Globe has shown poor judgement and timing with this piece of drivel.
  6. Concerned Canuk from Canada writes: Here's a definition of myth: an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.

    Vimy happened, Canadians died, the ridge was taken, the Allies were impressed, from then on, our soldiers were look upon as an elite force, the enemy feared us...birth of a nation...yes...it was the beginning of the end of Canada being seen as a nurse maid to England...Someone commented that Seuz Crisis and UNEF should be our 'birth of a nation'...it was the British that actual came up with the conept and asked Canada to run with it.....however I'm no historian....
  7. john sledzi from Toronto, Canada writes: A myth isn't necessarily untrue. It may be an exaggeration of reality.

    1)A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
    2)Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
    A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
  8. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, Canada writes: Oh, boo hoo. Some people are upset that facts have been spewed all over their myth. Get over it. A desire for uplifting stories does not give anyone the right to censor the truth.
  9. sean bob from Ozark, Canada writes: I wonder if the dead WWI Canadian soldiers think that what they did on Vimy Ridge was a negligible myth. As usual the G&M slant is blatantly anti-Canadian. It must be hard to deal with the fact that Canada was considered an honorable nation based on it's dedication to fighting evil during global conflicts, kind of goes against your anti-Canadian stance.

    It is you who is perpetrating a myth. Shame.
  10. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: According to my Oxford English Dictionary, 'myth' means: 'A purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons, actions, or events and embodying some popular idea concerning natural or historic phenomena. Often used vaguely to include anty narrative having fictitious elements.'

    I think Steve Harper is attempting to rebrand Canada as 'warriers that make a difference to the world' instead of as 'peacekeepers that look after the world' as most of us have been raised to believe.

    I don't buy it, and I don't believe for a moment it will work -- that's the thing about coming of age. Once you lose your innocence, you can never get it back, and the world and its people are much different than we were 90 years ago.

    As for the timing -- come on, Henry Allen, you are usually more thoughtful and astute. To be news, stories need a hook. Without the recent 90th anniversary, and the rededication of the monument we have allowed to rot for many years now, there would be no Vimy stories or tribute.
  11. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Lest we forget indeed. Let me offer you the words of WWI soldier/poet Wilfred Owen, who died days before armistice: Dulce et Decorum Est Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of disappointed shells that dropped behind. GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!– An ecstasy of fumbling, Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time; But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And floundering like a man in fire or lime.– Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. If in some smothering dreams you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin; If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,– My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.
  12. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Maybe some of the imperialist British poet Rudyard Kipling's lines about fighting in Afghanistan would be more appropriate here:

    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
    Go, go, go like a soldier,
    Go, go, go like a soldier,
    Go, go, go like a soldier,
    So-oldier OF the Queen!

    Hmmm...anyone sense he was being sarcastic?
  13. Alan Poon from Canada writes: It's always interesting to see the knee-jerk reactions in a discussion concerning a sensitive topic. When a world-view is questioned by a person, he will always be the target of ad hominem attacks. In this case it's the accusation of disrespecting the soldiers and our country. Simply by evoking this argument, all frank and honest dialogue is quashed. Questioning our troops is un-Ameri...er... un-Canadian.

    Really though, why is it wrong to question how significant Vimy Ridge was in the big picture? Does the fact that a Canadian soldier died in an insignificant battle, or even lost in a significant battle, diminish the value of his sacrifice? I don't think so.
  14. david avis from Montreal, Canada writes: Congratulations to Michael Valpy for an excellent, measured, and thought provoking article. Yes, we need myths. But we don't need to create them by heedlessly following the military whims of more powerful nations, with the subsequent loss of countless young Canadians. Henry, the time is definitely right for this type of reflection. Read the other headlines in today's paper.............
  15. Rob C from Canada writes: Tom Langford- good question you posed for Mr. Valpy.

    A Myth is just that- a fictional thing. He called it that. So stand by it and be damned for it. I agree some of it is pure nationalistic pride but:

    The majority of nations are forged by some great strife. That battle and that war were one of the things that Canada; a newly formed confederation, just barely 50yrs old as a nation- had the beginnings of it's national identity shaped in a terrible way- war is indeed hell. But from it was born something with greater resolve and as mentioned above- innocence lost.

    But to trivialize this and not acknowledge it does a great disservice to this Country.
  16. Cheap Skate from Vancouver, Canada writes: MJ Patchouli from Regina: I prefer the ending to Gunga Din,

    Tho I've belted you and flayed you,
    You're a better man than I am!

    The question is not what Stephen Harper is trying to do ( I think I agree with you), rather it is what constitutes a myth. How about the one that says 350,000 soldiers made an attack in the second Battle of Arras. On the first day, nearly all objectives were achieved. After the second day very few were. By the way, the Canadians achieved theirs on the first day!

    Does that FACT change what Canada did, or does it alter the mythology surrounding the victory at Vimy Ridge? After 35 days of fighting, 150,000 British and 100,000 German soldiers were casualties. Canada suffered nearly 20,000 casualties in the same period. Does that alter the fact or the myth?
  17. Dennis Petruk from Canada writes: M. Valpy exemplifies what is wrong in Canada today. His Trudeau-isk blather only goes to the 'you can't be a proud Canadian', divide and conquer Marxist doctrone the Socialist/Canadian elitists have come to embrace.
    When dealing with the subject at hand, quite discusting isn't it?
  18. M Ahmadinejacket from Calgary, Canada writes: How absurd to whine about the Globe publishing Michael's article at this time. Any other time of this grand memorial would have been pointless. Chill out.

    And cut the whining about challenging the myths which inhabit so much of our politics and social beliefs. Keep on challenging the fuzzy thinkers, Globe and Mail. It's what I look forward to in my Globe.

    As to the whinging about managing the comments or opinions, if you want to publish just any drivel, then look for another commercial newspaper. What part of fully moderated don't you understand. Look that up in your Funk and Wagnals.
  19. daniel coates from Almonte, Ontario, Canada writes: I always value Mr. Valpy's writings for he is a very thoughtful and well read journalist and writer, certainly among Canada's best. He provokes deeper thought among his readers, too often missing in so much in the print media which is too directed to capturing the moment, without providing an adequate and broader context. The Vimy piece is a good example of such excellent analysis and writing. Yet, on many occasions, one disagrees with his framing or conclusions, in part or in whole. In part here: I wish Valpy had reflected on the Great War as a senseless and avoidable conflict (my father fought in those trenches and was seriously wounded but survived with many scars). And on Canada's involvement in Afghanistan as equally senseless. For Prime Minister Harper has falsely and opportunistically conjoined these two wars as having identical and laudable objectives. The Prime Minister has introduced a partisan note into this solemn rededication. This dishonoured all those who fought in the Great War, which had little if anything to do with freedom, and by his blatant attempt to promote support for our role in Afghanistan, an unwinnable war. Perhaps Mr. Valpy can write about this in the future.
  20. James McEwen from Belleville, Ont, Canada writes: I read Mr. Valpy's article, the blogs and todays mia culpa and definitely Less Canadian than I did before. I am a retired military officer (obviously grossly tainted perspective). I was taught and studied the great battles of WWi and WWii during my career and was surrounded by their names as I walked down the streets on our military bases named in their honour. I don't recollect anyone ascribing any significance between the various battles except for Vimy. Vimy was the battle where Canada came of age. We fought as Canadians under Canadian command for the first time. Through the battle and it's outcome we demonstrated our ability to function as a national entity on our own. Never again did we have to integrate our soldiers into units under British command. It was they day we got our drivers licence and demonstrated that we deserved to have the keys to the country and could be trusted. I find it fascinating that Mr. Valpy would feel qualified to write about this without comprehending why we came of age that day. Shameful!
  21. V ADS from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Mr. Valpy insults many ethnic and non-British-born Canadians who have embraced Vimy Ridge as a defining moment in Canadian history by suggesting that it was some sort of Anglo-centric event.

    Vimy Ridge was not an 'Anglo' event, but rather a distinctly Canadian one. That's why it was embraced as 'myth' by all Canadians (to quote Mr. Valpy) and why it remains a defining moment today.
  22. George Scott from Canada writes: I wonder why MJPatchouli is allowed three postings on this .Is it because his/her more politically correct myth of Canada as the world's peacekeeper is being questioned.I would remind him/her that our Prime Minister was not the first to recognise the importance Of the battle of Vimy Ridge to our Nation's self awareness.
  23. Enzo Campini from Brampton, Canada writes: I have a suggestion to all those pissed off by Michael Valpy: stick to the National Post and to the local tabloids.
  24. Enzo Campini from Brampton, Canada writes: MJ Patchouli from Regina: Excellent posts. Nice to see reasoned observation on these forums for a change.
  25. wayne dybvig from Regina, Canada writes: Mr. Valpy's article failed to expoloit a larger myth that politicians and statesman alike pepetuate, that war is an honourable thing and the waste and carnage dolled by generals in unnecessary battles and needless charges is but a test of nationhood. To have been deemed worthy though our achievment should be more of an insult to our many qualities. Their's was a needles loss and our nation would no doubt have been well served today if we had had the benefit of their life time contributions. What would have been our measure if we lost 10,000.
  26. PJ Robertson from Canada writes: MJ Patchouli from Regina: A marvellous hat trick of posts - take a bow!
  27. PJ Robertson from Canada writes: How true, Allen Martel's comment on Pearson, Suez and Canada. Canadians as peacemakers and peacekeepers.
  28. S. Ives from Ottawa, Canada writes: The Battle of Agincourt in 1415 might be considered the English equivalent to Canada's Vimy. Why remember it so? Because the best propagandist in the English language said so almost 200 years later. I give you Henry V, Act 4, scene 3. '...And gentlemen in England now abed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's Day.' (NP) While I can confirm the definition of 'myth' is exactly as written above (the whole entry in the 'compact' OED is over two pages), this does not invalidate the interpretation used by Michael Valpy. Instead, it illustrates the limitations of employing dictionary definitions. The one he describes is, in fact, more highly respected than any other. Unfortunately, my recommendation that people go beyond the dictionary is not likely to be well received. (NP) The link will be much more powerful on the 100th anniversity than the 90th, despite the rededication, because of the mystical power of 100. The hook will be much more barbed by that extra zero. I'm willing to give the Prime Minister the benefit of the doubt here. (NP) The advice Rudyard Kipling was giving was not sarcastic - it was deadly accurate and honest. Love the reference, well done. Good Owen too. (NP) Three of the six questions drawing a reply from Michael Valpy were very negative. I spent most of the day and night following the comments. The angry commentators would not be satisfied under any conditions (well, if the Leafs made the playoffs?). I'm going back to see if there's anything new.
  29. Canuck Expat from United States writes: My problem with this article is not that it attempts to dispell the 'myth' of Vimy Ridge but that in doing so it makes what I believe are some irresponsible and misinformed comments. First, Valpy refers to the impact of Vimy as negligable. This couldn't be further from the truth. From a Canadian standpoint, Vimy marked the first time in our history that a battle was devised, planned, and executed by Canadian command, rather then British command as was the norm up until that point. To me, that is representative of an important time in Canada's development. Furthermore, Vimy was also the first time the creeping barrage tactic was implemented. This strategy, again was devised by Canadian Arthur Currie. Although the Battle of Arras (the larger battle involving Vimy) was not fully won by the Allies it did pave the way for future successes due to the successful implementation of the creeping barrage. Secondly, Valpy indicates that the Vimy is not talked about at all outside of Canada. Well, that is also not the case. Responsible historians will easily find British references to Vimy and the important contribution made by Canadians in that battle as well as others. In Andrew Roberts 'History of English Speaking People Since 1900' he devotes half a Chapter to Vimy Ridge highlighting it's significance to the overall war strategy. If there is some 'mytholology' to Vimy it is not referring to the role Canada played, it's significance, and the view of people outside of Canada on it's significance. It is irresponsible and wrong of Valpy and others to suggest otherwise.
  30. Sean McManus from Toronto, Canada writes: The Globe and Mail has decided that controversy sells newspapers, and if that isn't enough, do a Q&A session just afterwards so that the writer can 'respond', thereby justifying any positions he has staked.

    What a bunch of baloney!

    Hand picked questions, of which all of the 'against' the position of Michael Valpy were by far the weakest positions one could take, easy prey for Mr. Valpy. Re-read the comments attached to the original article for a far more balanced view (both for and against) of what ordinary Canadians think.

    If the Globe really wanted to spice it up, I think they should have included questions and comments from people who live in France near Vimy or other key battle areas. Ask them if Vimy was a myth, overblown with hype. And perhaps for reference, ask the Dutch what they teach their children to this day about the Canadians in that 'other' war, WWII.

    I say we make a myth out of Michael Valpy.

    P.S. To all the posters that can't Harper-->GET OVER IT! The election is over, the Liberals lost, Pierre Trudeau has passed away. There. Now you can go back to thinking about peackeeping and playing kumbaya.

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