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Dion's gamble on culture

VAL ROSS

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 7:42 AM EDT 11/07/07

Liberal Leader on charm offensive with arts, betting that urban voters care about culture ...Read the full article

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  1. Ryan Ginger from Ottawa, Canada writes: I always find it sad when any public spending in the arts needs to be rationalized on economic grounds--sad, and, alas, a distinctly Canadian trait.

    Nevertheless, from an economic perspective, Canada gets a HUGE boost from the relatively small amounts of money it spends on cultural affairs around the world. $11 million, which Dion wants, is not a large sum for a country that racked up a $13 billion surplus.
  2. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: And I remember when the liberals promised national childcare, pharmacare, and so on, the last time they were in the opposition wilderness. Didn't happen. They talk nice, liberal nice, but nothing happens when they get elected with a majority. Talks cheap, and Dion is at it again.
  3. Clem Brown from Metcalfe, On., Canada writes: The snobs had to cut back on the caviar and champagne. Too bad.
  4. Bill M from Canada writes: What's the definition of 'arts'? Is the government expected to pay for Avril Lavigne, Nickelback, and other rock acts to tour? No, didn't think so. Only ballet, opera, etc. The real popular stuff.
  5. Gerry Dunnhaupt from Toronto, Canada writes: Dion on the Canadian Culture Path. Good grief! Wine and ballet -- the Libs are really in trouble now. Meanwhile Harper follows the hockey-and-beer path. Three guesses who wins.
  6. J. Mac. from Canada writes: Dion is a sissy. What culture ? Cheese and wine or whine from the French citiczen? Always promises never action-Lieberal BS!
  7. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: A promise from Dion is about as meaningful as one from Layton considering neither of them will ever be prime minister.
  8. Ontario Man from Canada writes: Dion, please leave the money in our pockets. If we choose to support art, and many will, we will do so. If we choose to support other noble causes, like local children’s charities, we will do that. Don’t think that being in power gives you the right to tax (take money from us) and spend (on causes YOU feel will get you more votes). That’s old school corrupt politics and we won’t stand for it anymore.
  9. Here is a Comment from Ottawa, Canada writes: This whole issue about preserving and promoting Canadian culture is a load of garbage. Cultures develop naturally and change continuously. Whatever is popular will move to the forefront of what isn't will fade into irrelevance. The only reason so many Canadian artists require subsidies is because they aren't as good as their global competition. Anyone who wants to export the crap we were witness to on Canada day should be shot for treason.
  10. Don Adams from Canada writes: Arts. Artists. Pay tax dollars to support them? No way! If an artist can't 'make it' on his/her own, it's because too few appreciate the artist or the particular art. I still remember that ridiculous purchase of a canvas with 3 lines painted on it.....something a grade school child could have painted.... paid for by tax dollars! Then again, it's just another promise from Dion who's never going to be PM of this Country anyway.
  11. Mister Fartleberry from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Arts Leaders'? or self appointed blow hards from the 'A' grants list connected to the Liberal party? If you want to party at the Biennale buy your own ticket. The money would just disappear down some administrative toilet in Hull and what's left sent further down river as part of some 'inclusion' scheme. The Liberal way.
  12. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: And I remember when the liberals promised national childcare, pharmacare, and so on, the last time they were in the opposition wilderness. Didn't happen. They talk nice, liberal nice, but nothing happens when they get elected with a majority. Talks cheap, and Dion is at it again.

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    Don't lie you. The childcare program was in place but the COns cancelled it outright in favor of a baby bonus.
  13. Ontario Man from Canada writes: David N from Toronto I have not problem with your definition of culture. I am sure there are 38 million definitions in this country. My concern is who pays for it. Why do you insist that all Canadians be taxed, hand over their hard earned money, to support YOUR definition of culture. This is exactly what Dion is asking us to do. You want to support your pet project, great open your wallet. Just keep your hands out of mine.
  14. Harvey Mushman from cambridge, Canada writes: Really the amount is a pittance in the grand scheme of things. I'm really not strongly for or against the idea as it is relatively insignificant to anyone but starving artists. No matter how many millions, or billions were to be poured into this area there will always be be a zillion more starving artists crying for more support and funding for their own personal form of expression which is (of course) vital to the Canadian identity. I'm sure in the end it will garner Dion a few thousand votes...which in the grand scheme of things is also pretty insignificant.
  15. Richard Clyde from Canada writes: The pathetic provincialism that smothers Canada-- Robertson Davies warned against it in the sharpest terms-- is why I wish we had an aristocracy. Even a functional Tory party would be something, but the comments on display here do nothing to salvage my opinion of the anti-elite philistines upon whom Stephen Harper's political power apparently rests. Caviar? Nickelback? Honestly.

    I hope Dion sticks to his guns and gets the electoral authority to fire them. I also wish Canadians had a real conservative party to vote for, but for now it looks like the Liberals are the only party remotely interested in upholding the arts in Canada.
  16. Dennis B from Toronto, Canada writes: It's only $11 million for God's sake. Compared to the entire budget, this amount is diddly-squat. Besides, many economic studies have shown that investments in the arts pay off for many sectors - not just the w(h)ine-and-cheese crowd like some bloggers are claiming.

    If governments can be pressured to spend more than this on highways - and encourage more pollution in the process - why not spend this smaller amount on the arts? By cutting the funding, Harper is just being his usual vengeful, divisive, petty self.
  17. Ontario Man from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Don't lie you. The childcare program was in place but the COns cancelled it outright in favor of a baby bonus.

    Welcome to venr’s liberal fantasy. I have a young daughter, and I can assure you no Liberal childcare plan we EVER in place. It was all talk and media spin. Looks like the liberal illusion worked, on the weak minded at least. Now, I get a check every month. I know it’s not much, but infinitely better then nothing.
  18. Erik Richards from Winnipeg, MB, writes: Dennis B from Toronto, Canada writes: 'It's only $11 million for God's sake. Compared to the entire budget, this amount is diddly-squat.'

    Spoken like a Liberal.
  19. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: David N from Toronto, Canada writes: I have long felt that the end game of the Manning/Harper political project is to hand this country over to the Americans. An integral part of this programme is to destroy sources of Canadian cultural identity and slashing cultural funding is a central plank. You can just imagine what these traitors would really like to do to the Canada Council and the CBC.

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    David I agree with your conclusion. The ecidence is there is spadesnot only in the 'cultural' millieu. We cannot ever allow this bunch to gain a majority even for one term. They are nothing but a bunch of rabble rousers at best - ashames of Canada what it is and what it could become.
  20. Daniel Sturgis from Rabat, Morocco writes: Dion, he's not perfect, his English is middling, he puts his foot in his mouth, but not as much as Layton. I'll still vote for Dion because, though imperfect, he has something Harper's secretive info-control-freak government will never attain - integrity! Harper's big election promise was lowering the GST by a whopping one percent. Expect another 1% to conveniently and popularly disappear just before the next election in order to impress the masses. Meanwhile, any corporate interest Harper owes a favour to will make billions in contracts. The surpluses generated by the former Liberal government, which were chugging to pay off the debt racked up by the Mulroney conservatives, will have dissappeared. In the midst of the biggest economic boom Canada has seen since the gold rush days, the oil money that should pay off our National debt in a few years, will instead have been frittered away in popular moves to secure an election victory. We'll be left, in future decades, with more debt in return for short term bonuses, a beefed up military with cost inefficient equipment, and a devestated environment. Oh - and no artistic merit. Fiberals - yes, after a long and tired reign, some corruption crept in. Once caught, the Liberals didn't try to hide or deny it, but rather faced facts and ordered a non-partisan inquiry. The Harper conservatives steal every day, but are more careful about it. Instead of getting duped into money for nothing adscams, they will instead be overpaying for uncontested contracts to their 'friends' at the expense of our national economy. We'll have no plan in Afghanistan, a place quickly becoming a quagmire thanks to the pointless Iraq war. Iraq, aside from taking much needed resources away from the Afghan mission, did little more than explode momentum for anti-Western terrorist sympathies. Canadian soldiers are now paying the price. Sorry for the rant, it just bugs me how people are so blindly pro-Harper, who is blindly pro-Bush.
  21. Old blue from Canada writes: Mr. Dion has demonstrated that he can eat hotdogs with a knife and fork thereby showing ordinary beer and popcorn consumers some class and style. I fully hope and expect that passing a law forcing consumers to follow his lead is considered a top priority by his government.
  22. Ontario Man from Canada writes: Erik Richards from Winnipeg, MB, writes: Dennis B from Toronto, Canada writes: 'It's only $11 million for God's sake. Compared to the entire budget, this amount is diddly-squat.'

    I am glad to hear our healthcare and educations systems are all in fantastic shape. I mean we really don’t need to spend $11 million on new diagnostic imaging systems, or cardiology units, or on cancer centres, or nursing support, or hospital infrastructure. All these things are adequately funded, which leaves Dion with taxpayer cash on hand just burning a hole in his pocket.

    As written above, spoken like a true, out of touch, self absorbed, delusional, liberal. I guess it is hard to make priorities for Dion.
  23. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: The hateful vindictive COns show their true colors on this issue. They envision a populace walking around in blue private school uniforms and then, when they graduate, in blue suits working for American or other suitable foreign companies keeping their mouths shut while the country gets raped of all that it is.

    They want a nation of oil diggers under complete and total control and homeless immigrunts doing the the other dirty work like serving coffee and cleaning houses. Arts ? Yea, arts LOL !!

    The dear little leader is about as artful as a bull in a china shop. No wonder citizens just want to pie them and pie them again. The only piece of art they would ever fall to their knees in front of this the new portrait of Mike Harris hannging in the Onrtario legislature or Ralf Klein's dinasaur etchings.
  24. Don Adams from Canada writes: Hey Vern. I suppose you back paying starving artists to keep on producing? Guys like the one who 'painted' using human feces? Guys like the one who used dead animals and took pictures? Come on buddy, give me a break!

    If people want something, let them open their wallets. 11 million may be in insignifigant amount to some people, but we can do a lot more good with the 11 million spending it in other areas than 'the arts'
  25. Jack Ryan from Toronto, Canada writes: Smart move. With this gamble, there is much to gain and virtually nothing to lose. As is evident on this message board, the only people who oppose promoting Canadian culture and art are Harper's sheep and American wannabees: people who would never vote Liberal anyways. Everyone else; that is, most Canadians; care about Canadian artists and take pride in Canadian culture and are happy to see fellow Canadians find success on the international stage.
  26. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Look donnie if you don't want to look at a piece of someone elses 'art' then don't go. It's real simple - built for a simple mind like yours.

    donnie, don't waste any more time on this one because you will have less time to cheerlead stevie's next move - burning books.
  27. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: It's too bad that conservatives think the only way to export/promote Canadian culture is by buying weapons from the United States.

    With record budget surpluses set in place by the Liberals and the conservatives spending like drunken sailors, one has to wonder if the only reason their budget (which amounts to 33 cents per Canadian - a huge amount according to Don Adams who also convieniently has no problem over-spending a billion dollars on tanks) cut all these programs is that the conservatives really do hate Canada.

    I mean we all hear that conservatives hate Canada, and our gut feeling points towards that time and again, but these types of actions simply prove it. The conservatives hate Canada so much, that they hate the idea that Canadian arts and culture is being supported. They would probably direct that money to Fox news if they could.
  28. anu bose from ottawa, Canada writes: Another Grit promise-only to be broken if elected.
  29. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Ontario Man from Canada writes: Erik Richards from Winnipeg, MB, writes:
    'I am glad to hear our healthcare and educations systems are all in fantastic shape. I mean we really don’t need to spend $11 million on new diagnostic imaging systems, or cardiology units, or on cancer centres, or nursing support, or hospital infrastructure. All these things are adequately funded, which leaves Dion with taxpayer cash on hand just burning a hole in his pocket.'

    As written above, spoken like a true, out of touch, self absorbed, delusional, conservative. And what exactly are the conservatives doing about the issues you supposedly care so much about???

    Nothing!

    They have announced 5 Billion dollars - detailed in 78 press releases in just the first 13 days of summer - and none of them have to do with anything that most Canadians would consider a 'priority' - nothing health-care or education related.

    Another conservative double-speak, stand-for-nothing hypocrite....
  30. Don't Feed The Trolls!! - Nathan from Canada writes: Name one successful society or culture where major support from the country's leaders was not a major influence behind some of the most impressive works to come out of that culture.

    This promotes a positive image of Canada, promotes creativity, which is certainly a vital part of any forward moving economy, and provides incentives for numerous aspiring artists to pursue artistic endeavours, in order to get some small piece of that small pie.

    Perhaps we could do without the wine and caviar, but I think support of cultural endeavours inside Canada and promoting Canadian arts overseas is a great idea.

    That's my 2 cents - and that's about what we'd each have to pay in taxes on a monthly basis to support this program. It's a shame it was cut in the first place. Efficiencies my a**. That sucks.
  31. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Why should the taxpayers be asked to give money to have parents enrol their kids in sports? Some balanced thinking from the feds would be appreciated!
  32. D G from Toronto, Canada writes: To all you screaming about tax dollars. I don't have kids, never intend to, own a house in toronto and pay school tax so YOUR KIDS CAN GO TO SCHOOL. I don't complain about it but I would like to see alot more money going to promoting the arts. This country could use more people with an appreciation for it. And to Clem Brown - you obviously have never known an artist or a writer. The ones I know (many of which are amazing at their craft) survive on very VERY little money (we are talking kraft dinner kinda thing, certainly not caviar) yet are providing the world with some amazing works that will be around for YOUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN to appreciate.
  33. Red Ensign is our glory! Real Canadian pride! from Canada writes: sounds more like a liberal job interview for prospective media employees.
  34. Leonardo da Vinci from Tittenhurst, Canada writes: Wow! It looks and sounds as if Mr. Dion has actually READ Richard Florida books. It looks and sounds as if Mr. Dion understands the economic arguments favoring cultural industries put forth by Charles Landry. Creativity creates currency, but not necessarily cultural product. Stephane Dion seems to understand this in a way that eludes Ontario politicians, who continue to spread their misunderstanding of the creative cities movement, which is that that 'creativity' results in 'world class'. Nothing could be further from the truth. What creativity DOES is add effervescence to community life. Both Florida and Landry are more than willing to admit that probably 90% of creative effort produces economic activity only and does not advance the cultural agenda. So what, they argue, as long as creativity improves the local quality of life and creates economic activity, then creativity is paying off. This is something that Canadian politicians in the ROC have not understood. Perhaps it takes a Stephane Dion, coming from a province that routinely turns any and all creative activity into an assertion of cultural identity as well as an economic exercise in profit-making, to help Canadians understand this most basic principal of cultural development. There is one glitch, however. 'Cultural development' is something that 'Canadians' sacrificed on the altar of multiculturalism. So encouraging 'creativity' in the ROC will eventually be reduced to an exercise in massaging various 'ethnoracial minority creative classes' which will only serve to exacerbate the myriad solitudes that the ROC currently enjoys, as opposed to the two solitudes that allegedly held Canada back for so long. Stephane Dion clearly knows what he's talking about here - way, way more than any other politician who has commented on this. But are Canadians in the ROC sophisticated enough to 'hear' the message? I doubt it.
  35. Don't Feed The Trolls!! - Nathan from Canada writes: Good point Catherine - I also think that it's kind of ridiculous that the government has a program to help rich kids join elite sports clubs while kids whose parents couldn't afford it in the first place still can't afford it.

    Meanwhile, after spending millions and millions promoting sports for rich kids, the Conservative Party appears to have no intention of restoring any support for this program.

    I think their idea is to buy more guns and hockey sticks rather than more saxophones and paint brushes. It may appeal to his target crowd, but honestly, which one produces images of the Canada you want to be living in 20 years from now?
  36. Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Catherine the reason for the 'tax break' as opposed to the liberal spin of tax payer money to parents to enrol your kids is sports is two fold: 1) Recent statistics on child obesity suggest that child obesity is an epidemic so the more we can encourage our kids to be active the less obese the will be and 2) a tax break paid now to encourage healthy lifestyles in kids will be a future savings on healthcare system in the long run. Any other dumb partisan questions you have?
  37. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Remember when Mike Harris criticized education in the 'arts' favoring technical areas and engineering ? He actually skewed funding away from university funding for the so-called 'arts' areas.

    So where do these same neocons take their lead ?
  38. Joe Loria from Calgary, Canada writes: Call me cynical, but I see this move by Dion as primarily an attempt to raise donations for the Liberal Party from the arts community and arts patrons. I can see the likes of Margaret Atwood rallying her many friends to hold some kind of book reading/concert/whatever to raise money, some of which would go to the Liberal Party.

    Those people who agree with Dion should ask themselves if this is the proper role of the FEDERAL government. Section 92 of The BNA ACT (still part of our Constitution) gives the provinces responsibility over social programs. I would argue that supporting starving artists is a kind of welfare.

    Atwood et al should concentrate their efforts on the most limp-wristed and rich province--Ontario--and lobby McGuinty to spend more on the arts. Then all the freeloading, mediocre artists can move to Ontario, making everybody in the rest of the country happy.
  39. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: This from Mike Harris in 2000 just in case anyone thought I make things up: ' Premier Mike Harris told reporters recently: 'The demand for new programs is not in liberal arts.' He said the government is responding to student demand and needs of the marketplace. ' There is much more for lazy COns posters to verify and learn but like I said they are the laziest bunch of citizens we own - prefering to pontificate first and obfuscate and lie and withdraw later than to learn first and offer 'educated' opinipn. Or just plain lie for openers. Then again plain stupidity is always an option. Just for starters go here: http://communications.uwo.ca/western_news/story.html?listing_id=4369 Want more ' Go here: ''Funding of higher education in this country needn't be an either-or proposition between technology or liberal arts and sciences,' the CEOs say, adding that it is 'critical that all universities in Canada receive sufficient funding to ensure a well-educated workforce and a new generation of leadership.' The statement comes a little more than a month after Ontario Premier Mike Harris warned universities and colleges that they must do more to ensure that the province has a workforce trained to fill high-tech jobs. He also unveiled a $660-million financing package for these institutions, with most of the money earmarked for buildings and equipment geared to practical, technical education rather than the liberal arts.' http://www.sfu.ca/arts/articles/endorse.htm COns aren't very artistic. (that's an understatement). Worse, they think no one else should be either. So when they get in positions where they can influence things like funding and thinking and appreciation of thigns humanistic or artistic what do they do ? THEY HIDE !!!
  40. Scott LaRocque from writes: To Catherine....if it promotes physical fitness and healthy lifestyle is worth consideration otherwise no. And btw its not just hockey as you put it. According to CCRA the criteria that must be met is: ongoing (either a minimum of eight weeks duration with a minimum of one session per week or, in the case of children's camps, five consecutive days); supervised; suitable for children; and substantially all of the activities must include a significant amount of physical activity that contributes to cardio-respiratory endurance plus one or more of: muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility, or balance. The goal of the tax break is to promote healthy lifestyle in our children. And if you need me to tell what the tax break is involved in the physical fitness tax credit......that just goes to show how under informed your opinion is on the tax credit is.
  41. D G from Toronto, Canada writes: Catherine Willkie re Scott LaRocque - VERY WELL SAID!
  42. Karen Johnson from Edmonton, Canada writes: I find it interesting that the only 'international support' monies cancelled were those in support of cultural exports. Canada (and each of the provinces) spends millions on international trade missions and to smooth the way for private businesses to increase their private trade. But we will all snivel about a paltry (yes relatively paltry) amount to support the exposure of our artists internationally. Why is it OK to pay money to support companies exporting unprocessed natural resources (with an accompanying loss of value add jobs) but not cultural exports (the ultimate in value add jobs)?

    Need I remind all of the people who believe the US doesn't support their artists in this way; even Bushes government has similar programs in place.
  43. Scott LaRocque from writes: Catherine at least I do a little research and get my facts and data straight before i formualte an opinion on a program or tax credit. I suggest you do the same.
  44. Don Adams from Canada writes: Dammit Joe....we've got too many already! Send them to Newfie :-)
  45. Don Adams from Canada writes: BTW Vern, did you take your little plastic bag with you? :-)

    Catherine, how many hours a day do you allow your kids to watch TV and play on computers?
  46. Dan Van Gageldonk from toronto, Canada writes: I don't know the answer to this however why is it that people freak out over Harper cutting these programs without knowing whether or not these programs were actually effective. I don't know if they were or weren't but that would be the deciding factor in how I feel about this. The vitriol on this page is typical of these comment boards. Harper cut something so he doesn't care about it. What if this money was wasted people? Oh well who cares about function when you have an opportunity to vent nonsense.

    And to Catherine Wilkie: You actually have a problem with tax breaks to encourage a healthy lifestyle in our kids? What gives there? What do you have against sports that makes you think only rich kids participate in sports? So is your point that Liberals love arts but hate sports and the cons hate arts but love sports? Your wacked.
  47. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: So, vabid supporters of the tax break for sports for kids. Tell me, does the tax break also occur for dance arts?
  48. Don Adams from Canada writes: Catherine. Nope. Not enough participation to be worth it.
  49. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: I will answer your questions about Liberals hating sports but loving the arts. Firstly, I don't speak for the Liberals. Rather, I speak from the perspective of a mom with kids with a talent for the piano and I find it irritating that my federal gov't subsidizes families who can afford to get their kids to the arena.
    Mike Harris finished kids taking physical education in secondary school. Maybe all gov'ts need to use the public education system to promote both health and arts.
  50. Don Adams from Canada writes: Basic Conservative tenet....... cut funding for special interest groups. A few people want to promote their own special interest, let them, but also let them fund it.

    Basic Liberal tenet.......... dive in to the tax trough, get all the taxpayer money you can for special interests, then, when the money runs out, raise taxes.

    Most people prefer the Cons thinking on this subject :-)
  51. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Don Adams: Canadians forwarding the nation on a creative tenet are 'special interest?'
  52. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Catherine the reason for the 'tax break' as opposed to the liberal spin of tax payer money to parents to enrol your kids is sports is two fold: 1) Recent statistics on child obesity suggest that child obesity is an epidemic so the more we can encourage our kids to be active the less obese the will be and 2) a tax break paid now to encourage healthy lifestyles in kids will be a future savings on healthcare system in the long run. Any other dumb partisan questions you have?

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    scottybeammeup, if you believe what you wrote above you are the sole Canadian who does. Don't be stupid all your life and consider stevie needs the target group's votes. If he cared about obesity why is he so chubby ?
  53. Scott LaRocque from writes: Again Catherine your like talking to a brick wll.....do your own research. According the CCRA website this crites must be met: 1. The program must be suitable for children under 16 years of age. 2. The program operates at least once a week for a minimum of eight consecutive weeks or over a period of at least five consecutive days. 3. If your program operates for a minimum of eight consecutive weeks with one or more sessions per week.approximately 90% of the activities in the program include a significant amount of physical activity that contributes to cardio-respiratory endurance plus one or more of muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility or balance. OR 3. if your program operates for at least five consecutive days, physical activities make up 50% or more of structured program hours and 90% of these physical activities include a significant amount of physical activity that contributes to cardio-respiratory endurance plus one or more of muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility or balance. 4. A supervisor present and sufficiently engaged to encourage active participation by the children. So yes dance programs for kids qualifies, at least my daughters does. Catherine I should start charging you for tax advise.
  54. Don Adams from Canada writes: Ahhhh. NOW you're talking Catherine. Mandatory phys ed for 1 hr a day in elementary schools, 2 hrs a day in high schools. Could do it quite easily...extend the school day. Be terrific for the kids health. But will it ever happen? Nope. Teachers union doesn't want it.
  55. Scott LaRocque from writes: Ask yourself this Vern if you think the physical activity tax break is a bad program and does not encourage all Canadian's to enroll their kids in physical activities give your reasoning why this tax break should not be in place. Is it because a Conservative thought of it? Vern maybe you should take your your liberal partisan glasses off and start giving me VALID points as to why this tax break so bad for Canadians.
  56. Don Adams from Canada writes: In many cases, Catherine, yes. Waste of tax dollars. Glad your kids are into music. Music's good. But, they sure don't get any exercise sitting on a stool playing piano. And you still haven't answered my question re # of hours your kids spend in front of the TV or a computer.
  57. Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Catherine I never said some Dion's ideas did not...however before you critisize something look at the merit of program first before you start swinging your good liberal/bad conservative hammer. You have to admit with rising healthcare costs and an increasing population getting are kids on the road to physical fitness and promoting a healthy lifestyle in kids is a great idea.
  58. Don Adams from Canada writes: Catherine, you blame it on Mike Harris, but has McSquinty brought it back? Has he even mentioned it?
  59. Don Adams from Canada writes: Vernie, you're not playing nice today. Forget to take your meds again? Gonna tell Rob on you :-)
  60. spicydoc is working on getting out from Canada writes:

    One thing these propaganda pieces never do is spell out exactly who got the 11 million dollars for what.

    Get the details and then decide whether or not handouts are warranted..

    Dion is simply trying to act 'cultured' while simultaneously painting the CPC as hicks.

    Problem is, Dion doesn't care about 'culture'. He only cares about getting enough snobs to believe his arrogant lies so that he can get his hands in the till.

    The LPC ran the show for 13 years. Do a Google search--they slashed EVERYTHING to try to balance the budget (and steal for themselves of course)--the 'arts' especially.

    To portray themselves as the party of the cognizanti is ludicrous.
  61. Wall Flower from Ottawa, Canada writes: This rightwing versus leftwing divide over the value of Arts for this country plays to all of the stereotypes out there, especially when reading some of the posts on these boards.

    The fact that anyone could dispute the value of investing in culture and the undeniable economic contribution that this sector is mind boggling.

    Perhaps this is just a matter of different upbringing? Although I have to say that anyone with remote intelligence should be able to see that cutting funding in this sector is a serious mistake.
  62. Don Adams from Canada writes: And, no, Catherine.... ballroom dancing doesn't qualify as physical activity.... at least, not the way kids do it :-)
  63. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada writes: Basic Conservative tenet....... cut funding for special interest groups. A few people want to promote their own special interest, let them, but also let them fund it.
    Basic Liberal tenet.......... dive in to the tax trough, get all the taxpayer money you can for special interests, then, when the money runs out, raise taxes.Most people prefer the Cons thinking on this subject :-)

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    donnie you are being dishonest and disengenuous and it's glaring. Middle class hockey moms are a special interest group for stevie because they are HIS CONSTITUENCY. stevie has said as mush and has targeted them specifically because he is sucking for their vote- not EVERY family in Canada . That makes them a special interest group.

    There are plenty of families in Toronto for example or anywhere and everywhere in canada who can't afford sports camps or can't afford sports programs. What's in stevie's program for them ? NOTHING !!!

    Given the choice - why do you lie ?
  64. Don Adams from Canada writes: Hey Spicy, welcome aboard. Catherine and Vernie are being obstreporous again. I've got to go tell John Tory how to govern Ontario once he gets in but you can take over here :-)
  65. Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Vern after reading your posts maybe we should take money from the arts and invest more money in mental health or having a tax break for having minimum grade 6 education. At least Catherine arguements is relevant to the topic at hand. If you are the typical voter who supports Dion that really doesn't say much for him does it?
  66. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Don Adams: If you remember, Mike Harris changed the secondary school from 5 to 4 years. Problem is that he also mandated a core curriculum that left university bound kids with the problem of achieving their mandated courses and something had to give...phys ed. I do believe, as you do, that phys ed should be delivered to our kids on an orchestrated fashion as soon as they enter the educational system. Cheapest way to provide what is needed with the facilities taxpayers have funded.
    Now, if the Conservative gov't had given provincial gov'ts the monies they're giving directly to 'some' families we wouldn't have a disagreement.
    Makes you believe that the altruistic concern of my kid's health has more to do with the Conservatives targetting a voter target and aiming money at it.
  67. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Ask yourself this Vern if you think the physical activity tax break is a bad program and does not encourage all Canadian's to enroll their kids in physical activities give your reasoning why this tax break should not be in place. Is it because a Conservative thought of it? Vern maybe you should take your your liberal partisan glasses off and start giving me VALID points as to why this tax break so bad for Canadians.

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    pal, I did not say there was something wrong with encouraging physical activity for kids. Now you tell me what is in the program for families who cannot afford sports camps and hockey camps or the kind of specified organized physical activity the program asks for verification for ? All kids are not and will never benefit from a program designed for special interest middle class families. The program does not apply to all kids scotty just a few kids.

    Can you understand that ? The rest of us can ? What's wrong with your head ?
  68. Duncan McCockenue from Calgary, Canada writes: Vern, you are a dimly lit bulb; but in your own mind, you shine so bright! What money does this idiot Dion have to spend? Do you recall Martin going on a shopping spree with the voters last go round, because he knew he would never win? Hell, you'd believe Dion if he promised to personally paint you a picture if he won the next election. Its not the fact that he's promising 11 million, its the fact that this 'promise' has nothing solid to it. And not only that, this has nothing to do with actually promoting art; its 'purchasing blocks of tickets' and 'topping up sales' for artists that came up short. Like Layton travelling around saying he'd build a house for everyone on welfare... hardly a promise if you're not the one signing cheques.
    P.S. And I have seasons tickets to the Ballet and the Opera; which I do appreciate, and thus contribute to the cause. And by no means do I wish everyone would pay out of their pockets via taxes to subsidize my attending these events.
  69. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: 'Ostreporous', Don? Are you having a 'mensa' moment? LOL!
  70. Don Adams from Canada writes: OK Vern. For those that can't afford hockey, how about putting the kids into boxing, track and field, soccer camps....any physical activity. Be good for the little dough balls, which is what so many kids are today!
  71. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada writes: Ahhhh. NOW you're talking Catherine. Mandatory phys ed for 1 hr a day in elementary schools, 2 hrs a day in high schools. Could do it quite easily...extend the school day. Be terrific for the kids health. But will it ever happen? Nope. Teachers union doesn't want it.

    -------------------------------

    donnie you are one exasperating liar. Tell us why the teacher's union is against Phys Ed ?
  72. Don Adams from Canada writes: Cathy, I'll bring up your thoughts to John Tory. Bye, gotta' run :-)
  73. Wall Flower from Ottawa, Canada writes: Has it ever occured to anyone that with a $13 billion surplus, one does not have to pick between funding for sports and funding for the arts? There is plenty available for both. There will be even more available after we pull out of Afghanistan in 2009.

    Both sports and the arts are essential in a society that considers itself as advanced and enlightened. Both areas are currently quite underfunded in my opinion. Amateur sports is in serious need of a boost just like culture cannot afford such cuts, especially with the ginormous surplus we currently have.

    I still can't believe that Harper eliminated the prestigious Fullbright scholarship. Talk about displaying a backwood, shortsighted and ignorant mentality. That was embarassing.
  74. Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Vern....as I stated before and has criteria for tax break reads any physical activity if it meets the criteria. That can be a one week summer camp for $50. Save a $1 a week Vern and send your kid camp and then claim your tax credit.
  75. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Vern after reading your posts maybe we should take money from the arts and invest more money in mental health or having a tax break for having minimum grade 6 education. At least Catherine arguements is relevant to the topic at hand. If you are the typical voter who supports Dion that really doesn't say much for him does it?

    ------------------------------------

    COns manual, page 42, para 3:

    'When confronted with fact, use personal attack'.

    Listen you dummy end kisser go to the mirror and sing the happy stevie song but don't think Canadians are schoolchildren like the dear little leader does.

    FACT: stevie targeted middle class families earning plenty of money unabashadly in this phoney 'I care about obesity' thingy utilizing the tax system in order to court their votes. That is the fact of the matter and you can attack all you want DUMMY !!

    Try another page of the manual.
  76. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Vern....as I stated before and has criteria for tax break reads any physical activity if it meets the criteria. That can be a one week summer camp for $50. Save a $1 a week Vern and send your kid camp and then claim your tax credit.

    ---------------------

    You are a moron and a stupid one at that. tax credit on 50 bucks ???
    50 a week for summer camp ? Where, in Canmore ? ROTFLMAO !!!!

    Oh Canada we stand on guard for thee !
  77. Scott LaRocque from writes: Holy Vern...your blood pressure....you still haven't explained to me why this tax credit is bad for Canadians. Care to actually elaborate on a real point Vern?

    Oh and btw where do i get a copy of this Cons manual? I heard the liberals had plans for one but couldn't afford it.
  78. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada writes: OK Vern. For those that can't afford hockey, how about putting the kids into boxing, track and field, soccer camps....any physical activity. Be good for the little dough balls, which is what so many kids are today!

    --------------------------------

    donnie if you think Canadians are buying this CRAP then your brain is a large ball of pizza dough. Just give it up eh. It looks bad on ya.
  79. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Scott LaRocque; No. You haven't explained why Mr. Dion's focus on culture/arts is bad for Canadians.
  80. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: $11 million covers Sidney Crosbey's new salary for a bit more than one year, yet I heard no one complaining about millionaire hockey players. While our top writers have undoubtedly earned millions over their entire careers, none of them will come close to earning the kind of money Crosbey will earn.

    Perhaps our culture is best defined by that which we are most willing to support financially, independent of government aid or promotion. If it is, we are people who enjoy watching millionaires punch each other while wearing skates.

    I always have to laugh when I read the comments against the arts and artists. Inevitably someone argues that only elitist groups are interested in any form of entertainment that doesn't involve balls, pucks or blood, the suggestion always being that anyone who watches a play, reads a book, listens to anything but hip-hop or hard rock is an effeminate pansy or some sort of nose-in-the-air snob who was never allowed to play sports as a child.

    Well, that might be true some of the time, but why take such a hostile stand to something you don't, can't or won't understand? Why make derogatory comments about people who look at the world differently, who have different tastes and, most importantly, have no intention of beating you into seeing the world through their eyes?

    And before you get that snide smile going and leap to your inevitable conclusion that I am one of those elitist snobs who is at the ballet day and night sipping my champagne, I watch football (the CFL because it is just better than the NFL), drink beer, like to read and listen to all types of music and have been to plays. You see, it is possible to have it all if you just make the effort.
  81. Hail Babcock from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Why is this even a story?

    Why are there more stories about what Dion would do then on what Harper is doing? Besides the articles that are subtly attacking Harper.
  82. Wall Flower from Ottawa, Canada writes: Yeah Scott. I'd like an answer to that one too.
  83. Scott LaRocque from writes: Actually Catherine at this point I don't think Dion's idea is bad for Canadians. However, the proof is in the pudding so I would like to see facts and data before coming to a final conclusion. Just want to make sure this money earmarked for the arts does not end up in the hands of Dion's liberal friends. As long as Jacques Corriveau is not running the program it should be ok.
  84. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Holy Vern...your blood pressure....you still haven't explained to me why this tax credit is bad for Canadians. Care to actually elaborate on a real point Vern?Oh and btw where do i get a copy of this Cons manual? I heard the liberals had plans for one but couldn't afford it. ---------------------------------- Read my posts and weap scotty. You lost this one. With the level of intellectual gear you were evidently blessed with I wonder if you have ever won anything. I guess some are born followers, some achieve following and some have following thrust upon them. Which was it for you scootie ? Tax breaks on 50 bucks when the taxible income is lower than it needs to be to take advantage of the tax break. It's like giving low income earners - and there are lots of them in COnsworld - a tax break on broker commissions or a special tax refund on a new fully loaded Lexus LMAO !!! Then all the COns cheerleaders shout and stomp their feet at what a benevolent leader the dear little leader is before they get their half donut and tepid coffee. And your friend jim flaherty did just that on Chevys and Buicks built near his riding but not on small engined Hondas made 50 miles away. Just who do you people and stevie think you are talking to ?
  85. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Scott Larocque: We agree.
  86. Brian Sexsmith from Toronto, Canada writes: I'd rather see 11M go to arts promotion internationally than 600M go to 20 year old tanks that can't be used in the desert until millions more are spent to air-condition them. The theo-cons idea of culture is the Museum of Creation Science (oxy moron) in Big Valley.
  87. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Actually Catherine at this point I don't think Dion's idea is bad for Canadians. However, the proof is in the pudding so I would like to see facts and data before coming to a final conclusion. Just want to make sure this money earmarked for the arts does not end up in the hands of Dion's liberal friends. As long as Jacques Corriveau is not running the program it should be ok.

    ------------------------------

    And there is another page of the COns manual. Page 54 para 1 through 3:

    'When challenged, introduce adscam'

    scootie, baby you are taking my advice !!! LMAO !!!!
  88. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Trillian Rand; Good comment. Most of us enjoy a balance for our lives. I had to smile though when I mentioned my kid enjoyed dance arts. It was assumed it would be a daughter. However, not necessarily so.
  89. Rick Czarnota from Calgary, writes: A Liberal government would reverse the Conservative government's $11.8-million cut to cultural diplomacy, and add another $11-million to promote and tour Canadian artists abroad.

    And that is why I would never support Dion or the Liberals. I don't get up, work every day and pay taxes for someone to sit on their arse and write poetry on the taxpayers dime.

    If the arts are your passion right on. Write, sing, draw, paint or play music on your own time. Taxpayers arent' bucking up so I can spend my entire day pursuing my passion of playing hockey.

    If you are good enough to make a living off of your art good for you. If not get a job and pursue your passion for the arts on your own time...like everyone else does with theirs.
  90. spicydoc is working on getting out from Canada writes:

    Triian Rand--

    You right about Crosbey's salary.

    Thing is, Canadian taxes aren't paying for it, American sports fans are.

    I enjoy nice wine. I guess I should declare wine-sipping an 'art', suggest that my enjoyment contributes to the enrichment of 'culture', and ask Dion to buy it for me.

    Why not.

    Point is, 'culture' is a dynamic between people who create it and people who consume it.

    Who gets to decide when a 'cultural' item deserves tax money (presumably because there is insufficient natural mdemand to support it)?

    Dion? Don't make me laugh.

    I don't care if artists and art-lovers have a thing for each other. Go for it and support each other. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

    Unless you want to pay for my expensive wines, too.
  91. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Rick Czarnota: Point is that the taxpayers are subsidizing sports. A balanced approach would be to support the arts/culture as well.
  92. PRAGMATIC PUNDIT from Canada writes:
    Catheeeee Wilkeeeee - thank you for confirming the vision of your ubernerd geekasaurus brood. Bet you all spent a lot of time stuffed in lockers. Long live Star Trek!!
  93. Don't Feed The Trolls!! - Nathan from Canada writes: The tax credit is ideally designed to benefit the Conservative Party's core constituency, while doing little to target the lack of access to organized programs for those who stand to benefit the most from it: children of poor parents.

    While I often believe that markets decide things well, I think it would be a more effective use of this money to support programs in community centres, with lots of subsidies for poor families, and allow the children and parents to choose the programs they wanted. The community centres are there with the facilities needed to do this. It's easy. The programs would be available to all classes and more affordable to those who couldn't typically afford to.

    A tax credit is an insult to families who are too poor to send their kids to sports camps and don't make enough money to pay taxes.

    Think about the children! The sports tax rebate was a move obviously used to get votes from their target audience (fair enough, because it's not a small number of people), but is actually a fairly poor use of resources if the goal is to get more kids active.

    Anyways, almost back on topic... I think if private school tuition and sports camps are tax deductible, then so should music and arts lessons.
  94. Scott LaRocque from writes: Well Vern as far as my adscam reference, the old saying goes once bitten twice shy.

    Oh and btw the $50 camp i am refering to is in small town Alberta, Rocky Mountain House. My kids are going next week. Can't wait to drop them off in my lexus Vern...lol.

    Catherine yes we do agree on funding for the arts. Its how it will be delivered to the arts community that is the real issue for me. I hope we can enlighten each other with real/vaild discussion in the future.
  95. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Rick Czarnota from Calgary, writes:

    ------------------

    Just how phu...... dull is it in your life ? How angry are you really ? Can you tell us wrickie ? Is the 4 thoudsands of a cent per day killing you ?

    (17 million taxpayers and 11 million funding by 365 days)

    I need to state the facts but only to confuse angry COns.

    'Oh look mister COns inspector - I got 500 bucks funding but i painted 1200 pictures didn't I ? '
  96. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Scott LaRocque: Nice to agree.
  97. T C from Mississauga, Canada writes: Really helpful posts in identifying Who's Who in Canadian Idiots.
  98. spicydoc is working on getting out from Canada writes:

    Vern--

    Reducing the money issue to 'pennies a day' per person, trying to trivialize it, is specious.

    Millions is millions, so stop the spin.

    Rick and others make a key point:

    Even if Canadian taxpayers are 'okay' with supporting arts or whatever, should we ever belive that the LPC will mange the books honestly?

    This is the big issue with Dion.

    He can promise anything and only 20% of Canadians will believe his lies.

    The other 80% already know that:

    a) he will forget about the promise--BTW, most people seem to forget thet Chretien promised to decrim pot in April 2003!! What happened?

    b) the LPC will cook the books to make sure that the LPC does okay and the arts get stiffed.

    The LPC still cannot be trusted to handle our money. Forget it.
  99. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: Scott LaRocque from writes: Well Vern as far as my adscam reference, the old saying goes once bitten twice shy. Oh and btw the $50 camp i am refering to is in small town Alberta, Rocky Mountain House. My kids are going next week. Can't wait to drop them off in my lexus Vern...lol.

    ------------------------------------

    You live in the mountains and you send your kids to a camp in the mountains that is subsidized by taxpayers ?

    Are you aware a disabled person in Fredricton payed 700 bucks in income taxes last year and will pay more this year in order to subsidize your kids camp ?

    What a champion ! Great citizenship there scootie.

    Love those targeted tax cuts to special interest groups - eh donnie ?

    And they come on here and brag about it and tell us what a lovely program it is LOL !!!

    I'm having nausea !!! The odor is overpowering. I might need a gravol !
  100. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: spicydoc is working on getting out from Canada writes:

    ---------------------

    spyapple what page of the manual is that nonsense out of ??

    The issue is whether COns are really angry at artsy stuff anyway and cut funding in favor of rich middle class hockey/soccer moms. What do you say on that ?

    'Even if Canadian taxpayers are 'okay' with supporting arts or whatever, should we ever belive that the LPC will mange the books honestly?'

    spyapple that is page 63 para 4.

    Tell you what spyer. myron thompson is doing nothing anymore why not have him be the arts inspector so we all can be certain 11 lousy million bucks is producing the kind of roadside oil paintings and ceramic dogs playing poker we all love ?

    Now there is a solid rural grassroots based COns program.
  101. Michael H from Edmonton, Canada writes: People complaining about $11 million in proposed arts spending-there are better uses of that money. Well, there were better uses for the $5 billion in GST revenue (better tax cuts even); there were better uses for the $1 billion plus in 'choice in child care'; there were better uses than the $2 billion for tax cuts in Quebec; there were better uses than the $1 billion in tanks (which the military had intended to get out of completely and which are a poor choice for winning 'hearts and minds' in Afghanistan; there were better uses of the $600 million to select research institutions and the list goes on and on; there were better uses of government jets than to fly Harper and his son to hockey games in Toronto. On that last point alone, my guess is that at least $11 million could have been saved in unnecessary travel expenses to date. There has been no shortage of useless and expensive budget items that this government has introduced to date. Don't expect greedy, selfish, angry, old, ultraconservative males to get it. The only thing they understand is disinformation on crime and punishment and that 'might makes right'.
  102. Scott LaRocque from writes: Hey Vern...your making this too easy. Debating you is like shooting fish in a barrel.

    First off the who ever said the camp is subsidized? Since you cut and past my posts, show me where it says subsidy?

    Secondly, little geography lesson for you Vern, the mountains are about 2 hours away. The name of the town is Rocky Mountain House. Founded by David Thompson, one the oldest towns in Alberta.

    Don't expect anymore replies from me Vern, your not worth the time.
  103. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: spicydoc is working on getting out:

    Your point is valid, to a point. Cities, municipalities and provinces have all allowed tax breaks to professional sports teams at many levels to build new facilities or have made adjustments to revenue sharing plans that benefit the teams.

    As well, Mr Harper is allowing parents a $500 tax credit for children to partake in sports. We all pay for this. I see no similar credit for children to learn to play a musical instrument or to learn any 'art' form for that matter.

    I have little problem with the tax adjustments or Mr Harper's funding of children's sports, I would just like to see parity between the forms of entertainment our governments choose to support.
  104. Vern McPherson from lakeopeongo, Canada writes: COns: ' We cut funding because we want to be sure we are getting value for money'

    Citizen: ' How do we do that ?'

    Well, ...... how do you do that ? Does it take 15 months to figure out we need an arts inspector ? LOL !!!

    The COns never for a monent thought these issues would come up because they had worked out their arguments for the election that never was last Soring. So now we can clearly see the emptiness, and shortsightedness of it all and the nonsense of some of their angry and stupid moves.
  105. Dennis Petruk from Canada writes: Funding for the 'arts' should be an optional choice for taxpayers.

    I don't go to ballets, or operas, so why should my tax dollars go towards these?

    Same as the CBC. Why should I support the CBC, when they obviously support the Liberal Party of Canada, and I don't support the LPC?

    Arts, womens group and all the other special interest groups should NOT get government funding, because not every Canadian supports their agenda. If their agenda is popular with many Canadians, they should have no problem fund raising.
    I suspect the opposite is true, and this is why the special interest groups are whining to high heaven when their funding gets cut or eliminated.

    Good job Harper and Conservatives.
    • Posted 11/07/07 at 11:51 AM EDT |