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At what price, a few votes?

Adam Radwanski, July 24, 2007 at 12:01 PM EDT

John Tory has a reputation as a decent, well-intentioned guy, and none of my personal experiences with him would suggest otherwise. But this is one of the more irresponsible ways to troll for votes I can think of.

If you really think the current school funding model is unfair, and there's no disagreement here, what you should be exploring is how to stop funding Catholic schools to the exclusion of every other religion. But there are no votes in that. So instead, Tory is prepared to sacrifice the public good in order to curry favour with other religious groups.

Maybe, to give him the benefit of the doubt, he doesn't see it that way. Maybe he thinks he'd just be making the province fairer. But even if technically it would be fairer, it would also push us toward precisely the sort of society that pretty much everyone has agreed we don't want.

Nearly every Western country is struggling with the polarization and/or ghettoization of various ethnic minorities. Canada, luckily, has struggled less than most. But if the state starts subsidizing schools in which Muslims interact only with other Muslims, Jews with other Jews, Hindus with other Hindus and so on, this is going to become a much uglier place in a hurry.

What we learn in school isn't just how to read, write and master math formulas we'll never see for the rest of our lives. It's also how to interact with others. If we start limiting that to interaction with the like-minded, kids will be horribly unprepared to get by in the pluralistic society awaiting them after they graduate. And eventually, it'll cease to be a pluralistic society at all.

***

Update: Some of the comments below - which are mercifully a lot more thoughtful than what was coming up yesterday on race and crime - take issue with my suggestion that the province stop funding Catholic schools. Just to be clear, I never suggested that could be done easily, which is why I wrote that leaders should be "exploring" the option. If they're going to strike up a panel on anything, I'd rather it be to look at something along the lines of the tricky constitutional dance that Newfoundland did in the '90s.

  1. W W from Canada writes: I have to disagree with Adam on this. Bringing Ontario faith-based schools under control of the Ministry of Education would achieve many objectives. Among others it would ensure that the students are being offered the curriculum approved by the Ontario Ministry of Education rather than the Saudi one; the teachers are certified in Ontario – not in Yemen. This would certainly serve the public more than the students.
  2. Mike R from Canada writes: He can't cease Catholic school funding. The constitution says as much and the Supreme Court has opined likewise.

    Shouldn't that be pointed out here?
  3. F H from Canada writes: If faith-based schools are to be fully funded then it must be ensured that ALL federally recognized religions get the funding no matter whether Christian, Jewish, Hindi, Wiccan or Islamic.

    Personally, I'm all for getting rid of funding for religious schools. We have perfectly good public schools already available when it comes to scholastic studies. Religious studies can still be taken after school or on the weekend and paid for by those who wish their children to receive the extra education, just as parents would have to pay for any other extracuricular activities.

    Religious schools do nothing to teach the inclusion and acceptance of all the cultures and religions that this wonderful country provides for us, but instead are a form of segregation.
  4. Robert P from Montreal, Canada writes: Mike R from Canada: You are correct. That is why Quebec had to request a change to article 93 of the constitution (in reality article 93A was added that excluded Quebec from all paragraphs of article 93). So, you are correct that this fact should be pointed out. But, be aware, that it can be done (as it was done in Quebec). Hence, the same could be done for Ontario.

    It is interesting that Quebec, once thought of as the most religious part of our country, made this secular educations system reform back in 2000. Actually, the question in Quebec today is whether to stop offering religious instruction at all in schools (as it stands now you choose to send your child to religious or a secular-morals class).
  5. Paul Jones from Kitchener, Canada writes: the State must decide, in the end, to stop funding ALL faith based schools. this is a seperation of Church and State issue. all children MUST pass the provinces required standards. if you wish for your child to receive religious education as well, send them to sunday school. or pay for a private school. taxpayer money should not be funding religion in any way.
  6. Mike R from Canada writes: Yes, but it is either disingenuous or ill informed to simply suggest the Ontario government should stop funding Catholic schools. It is considerably more complicated that this. Not only is there the constitutional issue, but there is also the historical perspective. For precisely the same reason we have protection of minority rights in terms of language (i.e. the recognition of French outside of Quebec) we have them in terms of religion (i.e. the existence of Catholic schools in Ontario). If these weren't constitutionalized we simply would not have had a country in 1867.

    Is it perfect? No, it isn't. But neither is Canada and this all part and parcel. To simply state that Ontario should stop funding Catholic education is pretty simplistic.

    Also, I attended Catholic schools for most of my youth and the suggestion that they foster some kind of segregation is nonsense. The MO of the schools was very much the opposite. As part of the education process we spent a whole lot more time working in our multicultural community than did any public school in the area. And we didn't just study the Catholic faith - we also studied Islam, Judaism, etc... And visited and interacted with people of these faiths.
  7. D Brown from Canada writes: Religion is for the Sabbath, be it Saturday or Sunday. KEEP RELIGION OUT OF SCHOOL. We have enough separations between us.
  8. OK from Ontario from Toronto, Canada writes: Mike R - Stating that Ontario should stop funding schools is simple, not simplistic. Actually stopping said funding would be difficult, but better (and certainly less costly) than the alternative. The tax pot for education is only so big, and if you spread only a small amount of butter over a big loaf of bread, you don't get good results. The public school system is there so EVERYBODY can get a decent free education. Your 3 R's. You want to learn about the origin of the Trinity, Father Abraham or the Koran in its original Arabic, fine, but don't expect Ontario taxpayers to pay for it, and better make sure your education is up to snuff.
  9. Mike R from Canada writes: Well, the Supreme Court of Canada was asked the same question and I am pretty sure they said (with unanimity) that the funding of Ontario Catholic schools was constitutionaly protected.

    I think the recent history of this country suggests that a constitutional change would be rather difficult.

    My point is this - I don't mena to say it is right or wrong. It is certainly a matter of opinion and reasonable people can disagree. What is absurd, is to simply suggest we should cease this funding. At least without providing the full context. You want to create divisions? Do just that. Say that the "Catholics are favoured" or the "Mulsims are discriminated agianst" and provide no context whatsoever. That will divide people a lot more quickly than school funding.

    My real issue is with Adam Radwanski for doing just that and not realizing, it would seem, that this is what he has done. Just read some of the comments right here. If you want to discuss this matter - with all its considerable complexity - then fine. If you want to discuss it with a glib little "it's not fair" complaint, then you are guilty of what you are claiming to protect.
  10. D K from Calgary, Canada writes: So we extend minority rights and then, when the minority is successful, take them back? Wasn't the reason to put the protection in the Constitution to protect against knee-jerk sentiment like "no religion in schools"? And if public funding of a wide variety of religious schools caused segregation, why aren't places that practice it, like BC and Alberta, suffering from it? For that matter, why aren't private schools banned in Ontario - why is class segregation a more acceptable alternative than one based on religion?
  11. Leonard Eichel from Montreal, Canada writes: Mike R - Bill 30, as it was called then and the subject of the Supreme Court ruling back in 1995 - was upheld by the SC and found to be a legitimate exercise of Provincial constitutional power that was not in conflict with the Charter. Presumably, if John Tory, as a future Premier of the Province of Ontario, wanted to withdraw full funding for Roman Catholic schools, he could do so, as it is within the power of the Province to do that and more on all questions related to education. The question that Adam is posing is whether or not it is politically pallatable to do so or fund all religious schools equally. On that question, I tend to lean in the direction of no funding for reglious schools at all. If you start to go down that road, then you have to continually answer a growing list of demands from a multitude of religions to fund their schools. This sucks money out of the public system to the detriment to all, including any religious schools. Furthermore, I agree with Adam that going down this road is not a great vote getter either. The majority of the population is secular in this country and as such, would rather that their politicians focus on issues that are nearer and dearer to their hearts.
  12. Emperor Joshua Norton from Toronto, Canada writes: Mike R - several of my friends went to Catholic schools (though, ironically, all my Catholic friends went through the public system). From what I gather (and your post implies) the public and Catholic systems are not that different - except that the Catholic system has more theology courses. But if that were true, would that not make the Catholic school system redundant?

    I think the question that Adam Radwanski is raising is whether or not it is better to fund all religious school systems, to fund none of them or to leave the status quo. I think the Catholic system should be cut. I also think that it cannot be cut. Ergo, of the two remaining options, the lesser of two evils is the status quo and not what Tory has chosen to endorse.
  13. B to the A to the R to the T from the left coast., Canada writes: In the end every tax dollar that is spent on religious education takes as away from us progressing to a more fact-based, tolerant, and secular society. May of us do not want our tax dollars going to teach a method of thinking that puts faith above knowledge. Terrible idea.
  14. David D from Canada writes: The Ministry of Education already has the power through existing legislation to close schools that do not meet standards. Every year the ministry inspects and certifies or decertifies any school it wants public or private. If John Tory is worried that standards aren't being met in private schools he could propose to inspect them more often, raise the inspection standards, or even amend the Education Act to include new clauses and accrue new powers to inspectors and the Ministry.

    But is this isn't John Tory's idea anyway? Or is this is Bill Davis back from the blessed fields where former premiers go when they retire? He feels proud of what he accomplished for the Catholic faith and wants to do the same for other religions as well. Religious groups have jumped on the issue--the idea that taxpayers will fund their schools must be delicious.

    But think for a moment: take the world's most multi-ethnic jurisdiction and sort its children by religion. Send them to school with like-minded individuals only. In a world where children of different faiths don't spend at least part of their day together, can we hope to have adults who understand one another?

    Is upholding curriculum even the issue in a sectarian society?

    What about the delicate fabric of a diverse society in an age where a violent incident on the other side of the world can breed mistrust and resentment in our own cities and towns?

    In this day and age, it is more vital and necessary than ever that our children not only learn face to face, but that we all can say of any race, creed or faith, that we've know each other since childhood.

    And if the issue is the teaching of morality or ethics: look to Finland for an answer. Mandatory ethics class for all--in schools with 3 or more students from a religious group, that ethics class is offered to them in the framework of their own sacred text, teachings and tradition. Wouldn't that be a much, much better way?
  15. Jack Knight from Toronto, Canada writes: In reality/etc is there anything that is wrong/inconsistent/etc in Saskatchewan, for example, where there is a Public system and where there is a Catholic system as well? The answer is No unless you believe in the concept of one grocery store/one bank/one car dealership/one farm/etc. There would not be a lot of people who would subscribe to the latter unless you would like to be that One or that ONE who thinks he/she knows what's best for everyone else!
  16. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Why Ontarians should not vote for John Tory. Ontario residents wondering where to park their votes in the provincial election this coming October 10 have good reasons not to support John Tory and his Progressive Conservative party. A “red Tory” with NDP-liberal views on a number of issues, he has openly courted favour with homosexuals since the beginning of his leadership reign in 2004 and even before it. William Thorsell, the Globe’s former editor-in-chief who turned it into Canada’s pink newspaper, already in 2003 called for Stephen Harper to step down as candidate for leader of the new federal Conservatives and allow Tory to be crowned leader (Globe and Mail, Dec. 15, 2003). Later, during the contest for Ontario leader of the Progressive Conservative party, Tory was the only one of the three candidates to support same-sex “marriage” (LifeSiteNews, August 31, 2004). Needless to say, homosexualists were jubilant. The homosexual lobby group Equality for Gays and Lesbians Everywhere (EGALE), thanked the PC party profusely for choosing Tory. On February 24, 2005, John Tory (before he even had a seat), colluded with the NDP and Dalton McGuinty’s Liberals to ram through the Ontario Legislature Bill 171 with only a voice vote, to avoid identifying the MPPs who voted in favour. The bill enshrined same-sex “marriage” by changing 73 provincial statutes to bring about the abolition of terms such as “wives” and “husbands.” Party leaders, including Tory, “browbeat” their MPPs to go along with the scheme (LifeSiteNews.com, Feb. 24; March 4, 2005). All this happened even before Prime Minister Paul Martin got his hair-brained same-sex “marriage” bill through Parliament in Ottawa. (tbc)
  17. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: In the summer of 2005, Tory attended the 25th annual Gay Pride Awards ceremony in Toronto. At another homosexual event, a photo shows him being kissed by a transvestite, and after the imposition of the federal same-sex “marriage,” bill (June 2005) he counselled Harper not to reopen the issue because, “it is a matter of human rights” (LifeSiteNews, June 23, 2005; Jan. 12, 2006). During a keynote address to the Ontario PC Policy Conference in Niagara Falls, ON in early 2006, Tory said he wanted to make sure “every Ontarian who believes in a better province feels welcome in our party. Whether they are … gay or straight” (OntarioPC.com, Feb. 18, 2006). Nothing seems too extreme for Tory. In May 2007, he participated in the 17th annual “Inside Out Toronto Gay and Lesbian Film and Video Festival” where he was named an honourary “distinguished patron” of the Queer Youth Video Project. The festival promoted one work as “the cream of the crop of smoking-hot hardcore porn for dykes and genderqueers of all stripes.” Tory said he was “delighted” and commended the filmmakers as “a great group of men and women, including the young people who are involved.” (Toronto Star, May 26; LifeSiteNews, May 29, 2007). In the lead-up to the October 10 election, Tory has been quietly recruiting “progressive” candidates (Carol Goar, Toronto Star, May 21, 2007). His proposal to fully fund “faith-based schools,” seemingly an olive branch to people of faith, comes with strict criteria and government accountability requirements, including “the complete requirements of Ontario’s common curriculum.” In other words, Tory aspires to full government control with a curriculum ordering the teaching of sex education, including instruction on “sexual orientation” and Darwinian evolution. This is very different. The tax-credit system implemented by the former PC government, which came with no strings attached (LifeSiteNews.com, June 12, 2007). http://catholicinsight.com/online/political/printer_734.shtml
  18. dallas mcquarrie from regina, Canada writes: While my children were in school, I had two in the public system and one in the Catholic system in Saskatchewan. The notion that the separate system promotes segregation or does not teach tolerance of others is unmitigated nonsense. Ditto for any suggestion that it is in any way inferior acadmically to the public system. The only signifcant difference between the two systems that I could see was the display of religous symbols and the Christian Ethics class in the separate sytem - a class that stressed the ethic of service to the community (radical as that notion is today). I think the public school system would benefit enormously if had offered 'non-sectarian' classes in ethics. I have no regrets about having had children in both systems, and I think both systems can learn from each other. The right of Catholic communities in Canada to have their own school system was first guaranteed in the Quebec Act a century before Confederation and 'yes' - it is protected by the constitution. If we're going to rewrite Canada's constitution over this issue, we need a much better reason than has yet been offered.
  19. Derek N from Vaughan, Canada writes: I never understand the resenment some people have about funding for the catholic school system in Ontario. You are given the choice on your tax forms to support either the public or separate school system, it is therefore the taxes of catholic ontarians paying for their own schools. Catholic schools also imbody diversity more than the public system, where religion is taboo and expressions of opinion based on faith are dismissed. Since you'll find Catholics as being from every continent, colour, and class there is never a sense of segregation. There is no difference in the quality of education between the two school boards, but there is a difference in the boundaries you can cross. Any school system that thinks working around religion will give students an accurate way to understand the problems in this world are intensely naive. So bring on board the other faith based schools into the mainstream; but first, make followers of that faith be the primary tax donors to those schools, and second make a course in world religions mandatory to gain funding.
  20. Chris E. from Canada writes: Look south of the border. White flight is causing parents to pull their children out of the public school system and into private schools. Hispanics, blacks, and Asians are self-segregating themselves regardless of what kind of funding program applies. If things get as bad here, depending on continued high immigration numbers, this will be the way of the future.
  21. James McDowell from Kitchener, Canada writes: The interesting idea in this forum is that many people indicate they don't want their education dollars spent on the study of faith in "their" schools. They seem to imply that all children should be educated in the faith-absent way they prefer if they want "free" education. A sizable minority of people who do want their education dollars spent on the study of a faith other than Catholic not only are denied their wish, but if they insist on it, they lose "their" tax dollars to schools that don't suit them, and instead, pay out the full and high cost of the eduction they want. Just? No. Other provinces have found means of providing in-school faith instruction for families who desire it. Ontario's constitutionally-propped up system offers only Catholic or faith-free options in education. The onus is on those running the system to seek both justice and a more imaginative approach to curriculum that will provide faith exposure in school to families valuing it. Separate school systems/boards aren't an imaginative approach. I agree that rubbing shoulders with those of different culture and faith in the same school has merit. Ontario should seek an approach that maximizes integration as well as choice. I have little patience with people who insist that education in matters of faith should be relegated to Saturdays or Sundays in places of worship. Faith is a legitimate area of life and therefore worthy of in-school study. It also needs to be related to the rest of the curriculum in order to be useful to the learner. Mr. Tory's concern is important. If the incumbent minister of education and everyone under her would devote attention to the longstanding agenda Mr. Tory has again highlighted, Mr. Davis would not need to be mandated to do this under a future Tory government. Frankly, I don't see how she can feel at ease about the status quo--offering either Catholic studies or no faith instruction in tax-supported schools.
  22. Emperor Joshua Norton from Toronto, Canada writes: Derek N - it's not resentment - like you say, my taxes will go to the public system and someone else's will go to the Catholic system. My concern is that the Catholic system is no longer necessary. Having said that, it is not a remotely pressing concern and so I wonder what Tory was thinking bringing this subject up - and in particular endorsing the worst possible action.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Tory and I would still like him to win in October (and the fact that krazy KK doesn't like Tory means I am going to donate to the campaign), but this simply does not make sense.
  23. Sarah Bee from Canada writes: I usually vote NDP and I abhor the concept of faith-based schools (don't get your knickers in a twist - it's based on bitter personal experience), but Kooky Karol's argument against Tory is the best reason I can think of to vote for him!

    Scary.
  24. Michael H from Edmonton, Canada writes: The last thing that is needed in this country is more religion-based schools. I agree that there are some legal issues with closing down Catholic schools but we need to move towards a completely secular school system if we are to get around the problems with such things as refusing to teach evolution, sex education, and anything else that religious organizations have issues with.
  25. Mike R from Canada writes: Oh man.

    I went to a Catholic school and, believe it or not, I learned about evolution and sex and all that other stuff religious organizations have issue with.

    Understand before you write. Please.
  26. Rob R from Canada writes: This is a cynical vote grabbing ploy by Tory that will hurt him in the election. This idiotic idea will segregate schools and communities more - what happened to multiculturalism and letting kids learn and play together? If we continue to segregate kids then the idea of multicultuarism is dead! Who is going to pay for the $400-500miilion (minimum - I'll bet they are a lot higher!)) costs of this nonsense? There are only so many tax dollars to go around and this will either drain funds from the two existing systems or will require an increase in personal taxes no matter what Tory says!
  27. Mike R from Canada writes: I would generally ask if any of those people who are claiming that Catholic schools promote this notion of segregation have actually spent any time in a Catholic school? The last one I was in was very racially diverse and, best I could tell, the students respected the racial backgrounds of their peers.

    I'm not trying to say that is it fair that only Catholic schools are funded. But, I do find the argument that they lead to some kind of segregated society that breeds intolerance patently absurd. Where is the empirical evidence to support the claim? I certainly haven't seen it and, as I have said, my experience certainly doesn't support the argument.

    Those of you who would blindly claim that the Catholic system is leading us toward an intolerant society, without ever having been closely associated with the Catholic school experience or evidence to support your claims, are the ones who are guilty of intolerance. A little ironic, but mostly sad.
  28. Independent Conservative from Your town, Canada writes: Thank goodness somebody has the guts to really identify the problem. As a born and raised Catholic I think the seperate school funding formula is a stupid idea that should be discarded to the historical wastebin where it belongs. Does Tory plan to include Pagan schools too? Somebody has to ask Tory, which public schools he is going to close in order to pay for segregating our society.
  29. Ken Ketchum from Ottawa, Canada writes:
    Quebec and Newfoundland each requested and received constitutional amendments to get rid of their confessional school systems. Ontario should do the same. Mr. Tory would take us in the exact opposite of the direction.
  30. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: I've seen several posts that a) point out the similarities between the public and Catholic systems and b) dismiss the notion of a cultural barrier being created by the different school systems. These posts pretty much ignore two glaring facts:

    a) If the public and Catholic systems are THAT similar, then you've just created a solid justification for elimination of one of those systems and removal of the VERY heavy administrative infrastructure that support them... competing infrastructures that we all pay for.

    b) the point of the article wasn't that the Catholic school board would create cultural barriers, it is that Tory's notion of creating a collection of faith-based school systems WOULD create cultural barriers. Many cultures are already insular by nature and encouraging that division by allowing these people to isolate themselves only emphasizes their differences.

    I know Catholic board supporters are rabid and touchy... I've seen it for YEARS in Ontario. The thing is, and I know this is going to just kill you, but some issues in the world aren't all about YOU. There is a bigger picture to be considered here and there's just no place for your narrow little mind.
  31. Rick Czarnota from Calgary, writes: One public education system should be funded. If you want your kids to go a school preaching a certain religion pay for it yourself.
  32. Mike R from Canada writes: Well, my narrow little mind notwithstanding....you'll, on closer inspection, note that my post didn't actually advocate for two systems. In fact, I think I was rather clear that I was not opining on that issue. Rather, I simply have a problem with the often articulated notion that the Catholic system - and by extension other faith based schools - create a segregated society. If you can show me evidence that they do, then I will gladly revisit my position. My experience and, I think that of the last 20 years in Ontario, suggests otherwise. And the 20 years is just the full funding. Catholic schools have been around a whole lot longer in the province. Regarding your first point. I also don't recall saying that the two systems were that similar. The three Rs type of education, of course, is very similar. The rest of it is not. The learning about yours and other faiths. The emphasis on community service. That stuff is quite different and what people are looking to preserve in both the Catholic schools and the other faith based schools that already exist. But, could Ontarians survive one public system? For sure. I don't disagree. Would Catholic Ontarians survive? I suspect so. These aren't my issues. My issue is, again, with the notion that Tory is about to create culrtual barriers, as you put it (reminder - he is only advocating study of the issue). These schools already exist. It's just that they cost money for the parents right now (another "cultural barrier" I would think). How, then, would subsidy create more barriers? How many more students would enter these schools? A lot? A few? I certainly don't know. Do you? I think that would be rather germaine to the discussion of a segregated society.
  33. Emperor Joshua Norton from Toronto, Canada writes: Mike R - I can speak of only the Peel region school systems and the public and Catholic systems are very similar (they put the HQs of the two across the road from each other so people can walk back and forth easily).

    I don't think that the Catholic system creates segregation, but I suspect that other faith-based schools will. Do you see a Jewish student being accepted in a Muslim-based school or vice-versa? But speaking of immigrants coming to Canada, one of the biggest ways that those families become integrated into Canadian culture is to have their kids interact with other Canadian kids. The majority of them, I suspect, will not want their kids to go to faith-based schools (subsidized or not). But those that do - those that want to segregate immigrant groups - are going to love this idea. That is sufficient reason that this should be dropped.
  34. ajay - from Toronto, Canada writes: Hey Adam,

    Hindi is not a religion, I think you mean Hindu.
  35. Mary Smith from Ottawa, Canada writes: Quebec and Newfoundland both got rid of the public paying for a catholic education system, so it can be done. Religion is a private matter and should be separated from government services. With the Catholic church's dwindling numbers, this should be a no brainer.
  36. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Ex-diplomat will carry banner for Tories in Montreal by-election SIDHARTHA BANERJEE Canadian Press July 25, 2007 at 1:35 AM EDT MONTREAL — The political battle for the multicultural federal riding of Outremont is going to have a decidedly international flavour to it. A Conservative Party official said Tuesday that the party will run former diplomat Gilles Duguay in the Montreal riding. The Montreal-born Mr. Duguay is a career diplomat who has served as the Canadian ambassador in Morocco, Cameroon, Romania, Bulgaria and Moldova. Most recently, Mr. Duguay served as the Canadian representative at the International Civil Aviation Organization. He has also worked for Power Corp., the Montreal-based holding company. There are also vacancies in the Toronto Centre and Willowdale ridings in Ontario, both formerly held by the Liberals. But Mr. Harper has until Dec. 30 and Jan. 9, 2008, respectively, to call by-elections in those ridings. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here you have it folks, Harper is driving the wedge between Power Corp. and Liberano Gang. Just to keep up this spirit John Tory should quit Ontario PC leadership, and become Conservative candidate in Toronto Centre running against Bob Rae on a pink ticket.
  37. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Mike R: I was in no way attempting to single you out. There are several posts that specifically point out the similarities between the public and Catholic systems.

    However, with regard to the issue of cultural isolation I'd assert that your experience with the public/Catholic relationship is in no way representative of the impact of more isolated cultures.

    Haven't you been to a culturally pure pocket of a major city? I have.

    Try to get a job in some Richmond Malls if you don't speak Chinese as a first language. They simply won't hire you. Don't bother to apply.

    Haven't you met a family of Middle-Eastern descent who won't let their daughter or son fraternize with someone from a different culture? I have.

    A friend met and fell in love with an Iranian girl in University and her family disowned her when they married.

    Could you imagine if every culture out there were permitted to (on public funds) establish completely isolated education systems for their kids? They'd be lucky if they came out speaking English. I respect your experience with the Catholic board but it is hardly representative of the experiences of foreign cultures and languages.
  38. Chris E. from Canada writes: If civic involvement includes participation in extra-curricular school activities, the signs do not bode well for the fledgling concept of multiculturalism. "In 2002, economists Dora Costa at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Matthew Kahn at Tufts University surveyed 15 recent economics papers on the impact of diversity on social capital and found that all had “the same punch line: heterogeneity reduces civic engagement. In more diverse communities, people participate less as measured by how they allocate their time, their money, their voting and their willingness to take risks to help others.” Jonathan Tilove, Newhouse News, July 8, 2007 A review on Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam's research. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1182137136260661.xml&coll=7
  39. Mark-Alan Whittle from Hamilton, ON, Canada, Canada writes: Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill on the issue of religious school funding.

    All Mr. Tory is trying to do is be fair to hard-working Ontario tax-payers get the best education for their children while retaining cultural and religious norms that are within the family.

    No funding need be removed from the public system, despite declining enrolement which would produce a surplus is redundant staff where dealt with (laid off permanently) to right size each boards staffing levels.

    But implying that public schools deliver well rounded students asny better than any other private or religious scholl is utter nonsense.

    Look around you at the rising tide of youth crime, almost every one of those thugs went to public school to learn their craft, a mixture of immaturity, arrogance and amoral vacuity, to name a few.

    Thes criminals went to public school not private religious schools where violence is practically unheard of because there are consequences.

    In, public school nothing is actually done about it, just endless discussions going nowhere fast. Put a little discipline back in public schools and you will have a good start at turning the tide on teen violence.
  40. by polar from Canada writes: Yesterday, schools for Catholics was a good idea. Today, it's a divisive issue. We need divisions like we need Quebec's Separatists: not at all. One public schools and thousand religions.
  41. by polar from Canada writes: Mark Alan Whittle: Here we go with pointing fingers. What are we going to do when we have denominational schools and kids gets into trouble? Are we going to keep statistics on which religious denomination produces more criminals?
  42. F H from Canada writes: "James McDowell writes: They seem to imply that all children should be educated in the faith-absent way they prefer if they want "free" education. A sizable minority of people who do want their education dollars spent on the study of a faith other than Catholic not only are denied their wish, but if they insist on it, they lose "their" tax dollars to schools that don't suit them, and instead, pay out the full and high cost of the eduction they want."

    No one is denying anyone an education in their faith. To do so would be to close all churches, Sunday schools and remove all religious texts that the parents can use to teach their children at home after school (where they get their regular education) or on the weekends.
  43. F H from Canada writes: "Mike R from Canada writes: I would generally ask if any of those people who are claiming that Catholic schools promote this notion of segregation have actually spent any time in a Catholic school? The last one I was in was very racially diverse and, best I could tell, the students respected the racial backgrounds of their peers."

    It's not about segregation of race but of segration of faiths. Not healthy in this wonderfully diverse world we now live in. Just look at the States in Iraq. The average politician and troop doesn't have the faintest idea about what the differences are between the main faith groups there, which is why they're so shocked that a formerly secular country is now having civil war after being invaded. How many deaths have occured because of that?
  44. Chris E. from Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: "It's not about segregation of race but of segregation of faiths. Not healthy in this wonderfully diverse world we now live in." Wonderfully diverse world? India and China, the world's most populous countries, are racially homogeneous and don't allow immigration. Sub-Saharan Africa is homogeneously black, with the exception of some whites who are finding it increasingly difficult to stay on in South Africa. The Middle East is unwelcoming to other races, and few people from the first world want to migrate there. Mexico and Latin America are racially stable. Japan and the Koreas don't allow immigration. The diverse world is an illusion. Western countries, with recklessly suicidal immigration policies, are the only ones diversifying themselves.
  45. Thomas Mueller from Rothesay, Canada writes: Neither John Tory nor the Golbe and Mail should argue with success. Banning Catholic Separate Schools or expanding the mandate of separate schools to include other faiths would ultimately harm education for everybody. At first glace, it may appear patently unfair to allow Catholics their faith based schools while simultaneously denying the same to other faiths. Consider that even under financial handicap; Catholic schools have historically outperformed their public equivalents. As a result, public schools have repeatedly modified their delivery of curriculum to match the performance of Catholic schools. The resulting competition has resulted in a co-evolution benefiting both systems. It is no coincidence; provinces supporting Catholic separate education always outperform provinces that do not. This does not justify specious pleas to open an educational Pandora's box to faith-based schools of any denomination. To do so would balkanize our educational system to the point; many students would never "learn" a Canadian identity. Catholic schools, like other public schools, are decidedly multi-ethnic and even inter-denominational. This explains the presence of the many Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists (among others) whose parents value the principles of multicultural tolerance and the benefits that an alternative Catholic education can provide. Ontario tampers with the constitutionally defined mandate of education at its peril.

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Adam Radwanski

Adam Radwanski is a member of The Globe and Mail's editorial board. He blogs on all matters political, with commentary and analysis of what's making news (and what should be making news).

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