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Tempted by the fruit of an offer

SIRI AGRELL

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 1:40 PM EDT 15/08/07

More jobs in the market mean more young people may postpone higher education ...Read the full article

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  1. L I from Canada writes: It seems silly to me to pass on a good offer after high school. If you earn a good deal of money for 5 years and return to university later (when the job market is more balanced) you would probably be better off than if you just went straight through to university. A little life experience adds quite a bit to the university experience, and chances are you will know what you want from that education (rather than being another clued-out student).
  2. Karina_I (my art at windstream.ca) from Canada writes: There is also another problem with the "later" education. Ability of brains to learn can diminish with age, especially if a person spent 5 years in a labour job, rather than an intellectual one. It will be much harder to successfully complete the course for those who start their post-secondary education at age 25 than those who start at 17-20.
  3. Bonnie Lass from Canada writes: Employers need skilled workers, but die to the demands of the boom, they hire unskilled workers, who, because they come to work before gaining training/credentials don't really meet the need. The employer suffers becuase they're just applying a bandaid to their problem. And the worker suffers too. Sure, they COULD return to school in 5 years or so, but many don't. Why not? Fear of failure, fear of change, fear of spending a whole lot of money only to make the same salary anyway, fear of not having a salary while in school...so many reasons. That's not at all to say that everyone should go to school straight out of high school...not at all. It's just important for youth to know that the choices they make today could affect their opportunities many years down the road.
  4. Angelique Davis from (Currently Houston, TX), Canada writes: Personally, I'm for post-secondary straight out of high school in most cases. Only when the teen has no idea what they want to do should they go straight to the work force out of hs. Spending thousands of dollars on courses you don't enjoy and with no goal in mind is a good way to make the young person hate uni./college.

    I watched my mom return to university when I was still a kid. It was really really hard for her to get back into the swing of studying and because she was older and her memory wasn't as swift as a 20yrold, she had to work twice as hard. It was tough.

    I would, and always will, advocate for higher education right out of hs. And if money is an issue, there are always solutions. There are companies (like IOCC) who will hire students for the summer if they are going back to school in September and pay them ridiculous amounts. There are co-operative education courses where you work every summer or every second semester (like Memorial University's engineering or business) and get paid quite well. These opportunities also offer good life experience and help the young person to figure out what they want in life.
  5. A. Nonymous from Dickens Ville, Canada writes: This is great, companies should hire people straight out of highschool. Most jobs these days don't need all that much skill. It's great too, because these young workers can be bullied into working longer hours , for reduced pay. Think of the savings! these are folks with no knowledge of legislation, and worker protections, it's back to the Dickens era again!

    Then, when the market falls, companies can lower their salaries, and convince them to stay, promising 'training'. When they are useless around 25, they can try to get into university. It will be tough, because the smarter/finincially better ones will have taken their place.

    Take comfort though, a steady supply or burger flippers, cable pullers and cleaners is always required.
  6. Fool Monty from Vancouver, Canada writes: there's nothing like a few years of back-breaking, mind numbing labour to teach a young person that post-secondary is a good idea. the comments thusfar have been too one-sided. i'd like to see the statistical evidence. let's see the difference in grades between a mature student and a new student. also, let's see the difference between the mature student's hugh school grades and post-secondary grades.

    time in the workforce in a manual labour job is a huge motivator for higher learning.

    These Alberta kids have a unique opportunity because of the market. Provided there's a plan there, and constructive guidance there should be every reason to take advantage.
  7. EJ Martin from Canada writes: before taking your money earned from a lucrative alberta job to finance your education at a later stage in life, try to find out the attrition rate of the program you are considering at various universities b/c it is a product you are buying, and education is not inexpensive. The Ministry of Education doesn't collect these statistics (unfortunately) but the registrars office does, so its up to the consumer (you) to explore these stats as well as the potential job market upon completion of your program.
  8. Kay Ay from East of To., Canada writes: I struggled through university straight out of high school because I had never learned how to study properly. Funny how my 90 average didn't reflect this.
    The generalized statements of "aging memory" are pretty funny....I'm guessing they are from the under 30 crowd.
    I'll be more motivated when I return to school because I know what I'll want having 15 years of work experience.
  9. Gan Nepesure from Taipei, Taiwan writes: Karina_I, I have a few things to tell you, but modesty must be thrown out the window to do it.

    I teach English out here in Taiwan, and it wasn't until I came here (after University) that I started to study what is now my second language....Mandarin Chinese.

    After working here for four years, and becoming convinced that I had the way to teach and learn a second language, I finally got a boss that showed me (unknowingly) that he had the best way to learn.
    The yield is that now fourth grade ESL students in my classes study from American fifth grader supplementary textbooks in all school subjects.
    Having the luxury of this exposure, this makes me say that there are two factors that make kids learn faster or better than adults; first is having inferior power (to parents) and second is the teacher (decisively in that order).

    The second part of my message (if anyone's still paying attention) is that currently jobs are being lost in Canada to those outsourced internationally who are better educated, and not an overpaid Canadian. For the benefit of Canadians, I'd recommend to anyone to stay in school.
  10. Marilyn King from Sault Ste. Marie, ON, Canada writes: Waiting lists at post-secondary institutions will also push more young people into the work force. For example, if there are waiting lists for entry into Bachelor of Science in Nursing programs in the Colleges/Universities in Southern Ontario, these potential students may think they cannot enter a nursing program for at least a year. For those in Southern Ontario who are confronted with waiting lists and delaying their education there may be openings at Colleges or Universities in Northern Ontario.
  11. Chris Yang from Canada writes: There's a huge influx of students coming into post secondary institutions... if anything it seems that more Canadians are going to University. This creates another problem because universities are struggling to meet the demand for post secondary education. I think that everyone needs to at least finish high school, and then attend a college/university program for a few years to see if it's a good fit for them. If not, they can stop and train at an apprenticeship program or whatever else... if they're young it's not too late to do anything, but it's a good idea to keep your options open.
  12. The Adult from Canada writes: I went back to University part-time at age 30. I have a full time job, a wife and now a 2 year old son. I have finally started my last year and I graduate at the end of Winter 2008!! It has been hard and long, but I have done it. And I will probably go on to grad school in Septmeber 2008....

    It shows that you are never too old to go back to school and upgrade your skills. It can always be done if that's what you really want.

    Don't you think?
  13. The Adult from Canada writes: OH, and I forgot to mention that when I finally graduate with my BA, I will be 38 years old.... yup...... 38.....

    still young enough, I think.
  14. The Adult from Canada writes: A. Nonymous from Dickens Ville said: "Then, when the market falls, companies can lower their salaries, and convince them to stay, promising 'training'. When they are useless around 25, they can try to get into university. It will be tough, because the smarter/finincially better ones will have taken their place."

    Useless at 25? Tough because other will have taken thier place?

    See my two posts above. I went back at 30 and am graduating at 38! Yes, it has been tough, but what isn't tough in this life? No excuses, if you want to go back and be "useful" after 25, then it can be done. I have done it.
  15. Mark OMeara from Vancouver, Canada writes: There's another reason to stay out of school. The student loan nightmares. Everyone says Education is and Investment. If you dont have parental support, when you end up with 60K in loans from a 4 year degree, and the Student loan centre has lost your documentation and defaulted you and your credit rating is destroyed, you can easily see that even with out the bungling of the NSLSC, education can be a BAD investment. Crunch the numbers... what is the return? 15 years of paying $600 a month...

    A toyota matrix financing is 1.9% but a student loan is 8.5 - 11.5 percent...

    See education and student loan horror stories at studentloanfairness.ca
  16. J C from Canada writes: I see the main benefit of going to university straight out of high school is the residence experience. It allows students a unique opportunity to grow and mature and to figure things out on their own in a semi protected environment that is away from home. The ability to maintain a work/play (party) balance is another useful skill.

    Earning a degree can be done at anytime, but it's easiest when you have no other responsibilities (ie. when you are young). It gets more difficult with wife, kids, mortgage.

    Working a well paying blue collar job can also be done at anytime.

    Living in university residence with a bunch of other first year students is a once in a lifetime opportunity that many remember very fondly.
  17. Rick Drysdale from Calgary, Canada writes: Bonnie Lass from Canada
    You sound like your 16 or so. Whats with the "washed up at 25 line"

    If that was so the whole economy would be washed up as it is people older than 25 who for the most part run things.

    I agree that there are too many people going straight from high school to university. Actually there are too many people going to university period.
    The value of a university education has been devalued over the past 30 or so years. The trades are a good and lucrative way to make a living. Some make as much or more than most professionals. And the work is not as mind numbing.
  18. Steve Lawrence from Canada writes: Timing is everything. If first getting an education first, means coming out at the start of the next recession, you can bet that the person who will remain employed is the one with experience rather than the degree.

    Sooner or later, the Alberta oil boom will end (I'm betting sooner) and those who worked at getting a job that gave them experience will be better placed than the bulk of students with B.A.s and community college diplomas. A small group will enter at the bottom rung with a marketable degree. But these people aren't those who are taking "labour" jobs.

    A buddy of mine who like me - "invested" in education in the '70s and came out into the teeth of the recession in the '80s commented to me that at his H.S. reunion, the ones who were best off were those who grabbed a good job right out of H.S, bought a house when they were cheap and are now approaching an early retirement with a pension. He'll need to work until he's 70.

    My own experience was of seeing people with a fraction of my education and skills, safely ensconsed, 2 or 3 levels up, with twice my pay. There was no possibility of promotion to narrow the gap. And I was the lucky one who at least had a job!
  19. Ice Rider from Canada writes: Kudos to the headline writer. Great play on a Squeeze lyric. But now the darn song is in my head and I can't get it out.
  20. P W from Kelowna, Canada writes: I went to University straight out of HS. It was the biggest mistake of my life - at least I thought so at the time. I wasn't mature enough, responsible enough and emotionally tough enough to take on all the responsibility that going to Uni includes. At the time I wanted to take a year off and work, but since I wasn't able to get govt student loans, it was the bank of mom and dad footing the bill. End result, my first year of Uni was a washout. Imagine an 18/19 year old, out on his own for the first time leaving smalltown BC in the dust - it was a very good year but not for studying - at least I think so as I don't recall many weekends during that year. It took me two years to make up for that one blown year. For those that will now turn their claws to me as I don't have studnet loans - WRONG - I have a loan with my parents (at 8%) which I am paying back at the same rate that my wife is paying her Govt student back. So I can sympathize with those that want to take a year off and work. . . But I was also an RA (resident advisor) in the Uni residence and I saw year after year students saying that they will take a year off to make $ and come back in a few years. Of the 6 that I have kept in touch with, none have gone back to school. Most have mortgages, kids, spouses etc. and are working in retail or labour. Once you get off track (educationally speaking), it is very very hard to get back. for those that do - good on you! If asked by new HS grads what to do, I tell them to go to school. It may be a tough (or rough or very fun) first year, but you'll get over it. and it will benefit you in the long run.
  21. The Great Gazoo from Toronto, Canada writes: .

    A masters in film studies/psychology/history/literature/etc will get you a cubicle at the local call center folks.

    So this is just all spin from universities. Kids are getting decent paying jobs instead of wasting time on astronomically expensive worthless degrees.

    *
  22. Journey Man from Ontario, Canada writes: I have completed a two college diplomas, a university degree (B.A.Sc.), and an industrial apprenticeship (in that order). Each experience has been beneficial, and has helped me progress throughout my career.

    My recommendation to young people who are not afraid to get their hands dirty and work hard is to seek apprenticeship training straight after high-school. This approach has been around for centuries for a good reason. The apprentice learns on the job, earns good money, and the theory is covered in a college environment.

    Too many of our young people have been steered towards university by a system that ignores the reality of what our economy needs, and what can lead to a fulfilling life. This system also produces highly impractical people such as engineers who have no practical sense. Have any of you met the engineer who can't handle a screwdriver…I have!

    In time, the "journey-person" can proceed to further college or university education. The biggest barrier to this natural progression currently is an elitist university system, especially here in Ontario, where previous learning at college is essentially ignored.
  23. Ed Anger from Canada writes: I especially like Rick Drysdales advice that we have to many people in university right now..... when they should be pumping oil in that god loving province of Alberta.

    Glad I dont have you as a parent. Education = higher paying job, better job 100% of the time. just ask anyone who's been successful the hard way. They always tell their kids to stay in school so they wont have to work as hard as they did.

    Oh yeah professional dont usualy have mind numbing jobs. The mind is numbed when you put nut a on bolt b for 20 years or in albertas case, ged er down little doggy and pump that ther oil fo 20 years.
  24. Mike B from Canada writes: Karina my art is whatever, I worked for nine years before I got the nerve to attend university. I graduated with an Honours degree in Science, then completed my MBA. Myself and my "mature" friend finished at the top of our class, while the rest of the youngsters floundered around trying to figure out what they were doing and why. I think after you realize the alternatives, you see that the brain of diminished capacity to learn is much more willing and able to focus.

    The best educations are built on strong foundations, not on a childish belief of "but it's easy, I did it last year in high school".
  25. Journey Man from Ontario, Canada writes: Ed Anger: You must not get out of the house much. "Education = higher paying job, better job 100% of the time."

    You should meet the waitress at the diner with a M.A. in Sociology; the cab driver with a B.A. in Art History; the cashier at the coffee shop with PhD in Philosophy (all with huge student loans hanging over their heads on a minimum wage)...

    ...the welder in Alberta making $40/hr; the plumber in Toronto making $36/hr....Need I say more.

    And there is something satisfying with building things. At the end of the day you can stand back and see what you have accomplished. But then you would have had to have had that experience to appreciate what I'm saying.
  26. Bonnie Lass from Canada writes: Education in and of itself is not necessarily going to get you anywhere. You have to be strategic about your choices. Many in-demand jobs require trades or college training rather than university, for example. Apprenticeship programs are a great way to earn and learn. University isn't for everyone. And it's only an investment if your choice is well-researched and you know where your education will take you.
  27. L R from Toronto, Canada writes: Part of the problem - which I don't think anyone has commented on so far - is the perception students have of post-secondary education and the work world. A lot of students (in my experience anyway) seem to think that just because they did well in highschool, that university will be a breeze. Others seem to think that university is just one big party and it doesn't really matter if you don't work, or that professors and whoever else will be there to hold your hand and pat you on the back instead of realising that you're an adult (supposedly) and you're on your own (mostly). Equally, people love the prospect of earning "the big bucks" - especially when they've been slogging away at a part-time job paying less than minimum wage for however long. Thinking that the work world will be so much easier and more interesting than having your nose stuck in a bunch of books, they set out without thinking of the challenges that the work world presents, and how unglamorous it can often be. While I don't recommend kids should go out and waste either their money or (more likely) their parents money on an education if they're not ready or they don't really want one, I think they need to suck it up and deal with the reality that life isn't always going to be how you think it should be. Whether you decide to go to school then work or vice versa, there will be things you love about it and things you don't - having realistic expectations when going into a situation should, in theory, help people make decisions that are well-thought out and more rational then just thinking about the $$$.

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