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End funding for all faith-based schools, group demands

JENNIFER LEWINGTON

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 2:07 AM EDT 28/09/07

Canadian Civil Liberties Association recommendation is sure to fuel an already-volatile debate in provincial election. ...Read the full article

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  1. Oh Really from Canada writes: These groups should not be telling me how to raise my family. I pay taxes and whether I want to have some of those taxes redirected to a school of my choice should not cause anyone to challenge me. Why are these groups so bent on telling me how to raise my family?
  2. Tired Ofitall from toronto, Canada writes: Thank you! Thank You!

    This was an awful decision when it was made by Bill Davis and its time we fixed this! End public funding for Catholic Schools!
  3. Rusty Waters from Canada writes: Religion is trouble! trouble!
  4. Frequent Reader from London, Canada writes: All schools should be the same and religion should not play any part.
    Religion can and should be taught outside of school. In such a muti-cultural society, do we really want to be building silos between our children starting at such young ages? I would hate to see the impact socially and otherwise, 10, 15 and 20 years down the road.
    Getting rid of all faith based schools and having one system for everone is the best idea I've heard in a while. Which party is promoting that in the upcoming election?
  5. Mary O'Hara from Toronto, Canada writes: Yes. Please. Thank you.
  6. scamp the from Canada writes:
    'These groups should not be telling me how to raise my family. I pay taxes and whether I want to have some of those taxes redirected to a school of my choice should not cause anyone to challenge me. Why are these groups so bent on telling me how to raise my family?'

    They're not. You can send them to your own private school. They just tax you so much, you don't really have that choice. Only rich religious people should have the freedom of where to send their kids. It's the tyranny of the majority. The majority just happen to be secular; so they will force your kids to attend secular school.

    Of course, all this is fine with public sector unions, as they can keep their monopoly.

    Freedom is not the same as democracy.
  7. Eric the Red from Canada writes: Oh Really: get back to me when churches start paying taxes.
  8. Henry Allen from Toronto, Canada writes: If parents want to indoctrinate their children with particular religious views, let them do it with their own money, but not one penny of taxpayer money. Further, the curriculum given to all children and adolescents must meet the same tests for content standards, whether schools are public or private.
  9. Bill M from Canada writes: Oh Really from Canada writes: These groups should not be telling me how to raise my family. I pay taxes and whether I want to have some of those taxes redirected to a school of my choice should not cause anyone to challenge me. Why are these groups so bent on telling me how to raise my family?

    You can't redirect your taxes to the school of your choice in Ontario. It's now all paid for by the province through income taxes. Not being religious, it bothers me that I have to pay for a segregated religious school board. It should be shut down, and have one public school system. If not, then stop the discrimination, and fund all religious schools. Or is this a case of all people being equal, just that some are more equal than others.
  10. Ryan Ginger from Ottawa, Canada writes: Get rid of the publicly funded Catholic school system. It is 2007, not 1867. It is an offense to the dignity of Canadians.
  11. Bruce LePage from Cobourg, Canada writes: Our current dual system is incredibly inefficient, with unneeded duplication of educational bureaucracies. In our part of the province, the Catholic schools are newer and offer more programming options to students. We lose many students to the Catholic system because the public schools are falling apart, and we do not have funding to offer appropriate programming, not because students and their families have converted to Catholicism! I will vote for whichever party vows to end funding to the Catholic system, and to roll the savings back into one public system for all.
  12. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: We have law for all so our schools should also reflect the separation of church and state. We don't divide businesses along religious lines, nor other public institutions.
    7/10 provinces provide a secular school system. It's time to move into the 21st century.
  13. Tim Bee from Canada writes: I don't think Catholic school funding was extended to high school by Davis.
  14. greg panke from orangeville, Canada writes: It is about time we saw some common sense being directed at the subject, even if it is long overdue. It is amazing that it is the party that spouted 'Common Sense' a few elections ago that got this issue into the front pages, they didn't have much true common sense then and they certainly haven't got it now. The Liberals are not much better, indirectly supporting the Catholic system the way they are.

    The USA fought a long time to end segregation in their schools and Canadians have always congratulated ourselves for our supposedly superior integrated system, now some here want to turn the clocks back, this time based on religion instead of race.

    It is time for state supported segregation to end in Ontario, to take the money saved and put it into creating a better public school system for the benefit of all children.
  15. Anuradha Bose from ottawa, writes: Finally, someone has the courage to tackle the elephant in the room! Thank you.
  16. Rob Misek from Canada writes: Civil Liberties? An ironic name for a group planning to remove our rights.

    Everyone agrees that education is more effective when it is supported by the parents. Similarily good moral values are learned more effectively when they are supported by the schools. This moral support from our education system is our right.

    Religion is also the spiritual component of culture. We are multicultural.

    We've had faith based education for years. There is no data to support the claim that now it will undermine Canadian tolerance. Their intolerant hypocrisy is ridiculous.

    If we let them change the constitution, what rights will they choose to remove next? With morality out of the way, what will stop their communist fascist agenda?

    I'll keep my rights. Take a hike you communist fascists. Get out of Canada.
  17. Arzie Chant from Canada writes: Bill Davis was a moron. At the next available opportunity, Ontario should eliminate public funding for Catholic school. Screw the so-called controversy from angry Bible thumpers. The decision is simple: in matters of equality, you either offer a service or perk, in this case educational funding, to all groups or none. Since we cannot afford to offer it to all religious groups, despite what John Tory says, we have no alternative but to eliminate it in its entirety.
  18. James Cyr from Balmertown, Canada writes: I agree with the Civil Liberties Association to end public funding of faith-based schools for two reasons: 1) what is applied to Catholic funding should be extended to all faiths based on the faith-based funding tenet. 2)Private schools should be privately funded. Having said that, there is an inherent danger in 'civil liberties' replacing individual rights. The latter is much more important than the former.
  19. Barry Davidson from Peterborough, Canada writes: What the article didn't mention is that the Green Party is the only party arguing for the only fair solution – having one public system.

    By funding only one system the Green Party policy promises to remove duplicate administrative, facility and transportation saving hundreds of millions of dollars which can be used to improve the quality of education.

    In 1999 the United Nations Human Rights Committee declared Ontario&8217;s policy of fully funding Roman Catholic schools, while denying full funding to other religious schools, discriminatory. In Ontario, the public school system offers free education to all Ontario residents without discrimination. Public schools may not engage in any religious indoctrination. However, Roman Catholic schools receive full and direct public funding as a distinct part of the public education system, while other religious schools must be funded through private sources. To comply with the ruling Ontario could do one of two things; extend funding to other religious schools, or end funding to Roman Catholic schools.

    Only 21% of voters support Tory&8217;s position. 53% of Ontarians agree with the Green Party. Ipsos-Reid Sept 10/07
  20. Darren X from Toronto, Canada writes: The CCLA is exactly right! Which party has the wisdom and guts to implement this sound vision? The Greens? I'm there!
  21. Rob Misek from Canada writes: For a bunch of disillusioned liberals who supposedly value taking personal liberties above all else, you don't have much respect for the rights of others.

    Recipe for a fascist. Take one liberal and add power.
  22. p m from Canada writes: every one gets it ..or no one gets it...no discrimination.

    religion should be taught at home or in the church..not in the school

    If it is allowed...then we will have the saudi's opening maddrasses here in canada, funded by the canadian taxpayer...and it the catholics get the funding, so should the others..
  23. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: While there are plenty of arguments going around about the validity (or lack thereof) of funding separate religious school boards, there remains one elephant in the room that is unspoken.

    Religious schools, by definition, may exclude students based on a variety of criteria. This creates an imbalance, since the public board is obligated to provide education to anyone who wants it.

    Imagine a world where the various religious boards only accept devout, well-behaved and compliant students into their classrooms. Problem students, morally questionable behaviour and all other potential problems simply get shunted away from those boards and back into the public system.

    I guess for some people 'freedom' is defined by how much special treatment they get. That's not the world I want to live in.
  24. A S from Toronto, Canada writes: I read in The Star that the Green Party is the only party opposing Catholic School funding. I will be voting for them now since I'm tired of waiting for Tory to back down from his insane idea and I refuse to re-elect McGuinty.
  25. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Rob Misek: 'For a bunch of disillusioned liberals who supposedly value taking personal liberties above all else, you don't have much respect for the rights of others.'

    Actually, you have your politics mixed up. Creating a separate administrative structure to provide personalized service for each religious group in the province is a VERY Liberal proposal. A Conservative proposal would be to eliminate all other boards creating a single, cost-efficient universal school board that reduces complexity and doesn't offer perks.

    You just WANT your opponents to be Liberal because that would validate your narrow, self-righteous view of the world. Well that, and the fact you're a twit.
  26. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Darren X: 'This translation provided free of charge. Have a nice day.'

    FINALLY, somebody who can translate Misek into English. Can you please explain what a 'communist fascist' is? Also, I'm dying to know what 'right' Rob currently has that he claims the Liberals are taking away from him. The right to shoot off his mouth?
  27. scamp the from Canada writes:
    'A Conservative proposal would be to eliminate all other boards creating a single, cost-efficient universal school board that reduces complexity and doesn't offer perks.'

    No a conservative position would be to grant school vouchers or tax credits so inidividuals could choose the best school and let the free market decide which school model is the best.

    rather than handing the entire education system to a monopolistic union.
  28. Cynthia C from Toronto, Canada writes: Are people in Ontario THAT ignorant that they believe that ALL religious schools have trouble accepting people of different faiths? I went to a school that is technically religious (but will not qualify for funding because Mr. Tory considers it an 'old guard' school, and according to him (and a Globe article that is nowhere to be found as of today), they will not receive funding), yet we had kids of varying faiths, Christian or otherwise (a good number of Muslim students, by the way) and kids from all over the world. I really don't understand why people have trouble believing this.
  29. Michael Jager from Canada writes: I have been following this important subject from day one. I am currently spending 2 weeks in the UK. For a different take on this, Sunday's Guardian newspaper contained a lengthy article entitled 'Crisis of faith in first secular school'.

    Since the Globe's comment limit is 2000 characters, if you want to see another whacky side to the coin go to http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,,2175879,00.html

    Some extracts:

    'A headteacher who tried to reduce the influence of religion inside the classroom by creating the country's first secular state school had his plans blocked by senior government officials who called it a 'political impossibility'.

    The House of Lords and ministers would block the plans. Religion, they added, was 'technically embedded' in many aspects of education.'

    * Although many schools are not classified as being of religious character, if they do not carry out the daily act of worship they lose points during inspections by Ofsted. Kelley said he wanted to change that.

    * All schools, faith and non-faith alike, must teach religious education as part of the basic curriculum. In maintained schools without a religious character, this will focus on learning about different religions and the role they play in today's world, not religious instruction.'

     A spokesman for the Church of England said: 'If he is arguing for a way for individual schools to opt out of those bits of the act he does not like that is not something we would support. Either overtly or by default, this country is still a Christian one.'

    http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,,2175879,00.html
  30. scott thomas from Canada writes: The chairman of the 92,000-student Toronto Catholic District School Board has ventured outside its core area of expertise, which is religion, into what is in essence a political statement.
  31. The Objectivist from toronto, Canada writes: poster 1 oh really, then why shouldn't I be able to direct it to my kids private schools? or at least have tax deductibility? stop this juvenile 'shape the law to suit me' and instead choose what's right for all. No one is telling you have to run your life, but it should be if you opt out of ONE secular public school system, you pay for it yourself.

    'It's time to get religion out of all of the schools,' AMEN. I'd go one step further and say get religion out Canada, its simply a lever, like pride, used to control and manipulate. If you are able to step away from your own ingrained conditioning and be objective, isn't it all very cultish? I mean a bunch of man made rules telling you what to wear, to eat, how to treat women? insanity and shouldn't be a part of Canada.
  32. gerhard beck from Canada writes: One public school system. If anyone wants a different (religious) school let him pay separately for it, as long as the basic educational principles are taught in this PRIVATE school. And for Rob Misek, you dont seem to have have had much of even a basic education, communist fascists? Where in H. do they come from? Take H for history or hell, depending on your background.
  33. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Cynthia C: 'we had kids of varying faiths, Christian or otherwise (a good number of Muslim students, by the way) and kids from all over the world. I really don't understand why people have trouble believing this.'

    Cynthia, personally I don't care who your school does and does not accept, but you cannot deny that your school CAN pick and choose its students right? So, if your school were to be publicly funded, taxes would be diverted to pay for a school that is allowed to pick and choose the best students, leaving the rest for the public system.

    That is the very nature of private schools. Of course students are well-educated and well-behaved, because the ones who are NOT are simply removed to the public system... which doesn't have the luxury of refusing students.

    It is the difference between a private country club and a public golf course. You want your club. You just want the cost to be covered by people who aren't allowed to join.
  34. John Collier from Durban, South Africa writes: I'm against segregation. I grew up with it in Quebec, and even I, who knew better, had trouble not falling into thinking that the Catholic kids were not as good somehow. I have no idea what they thought of us. It is divisive and has no place in a publicly funded system.
  35. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Rob Misek:
    "It's clear that you fear faith because you lack it."

    No. I fear government waste because my taxes are high enough already and I shouldn't have to pay more to fund a bigot's club.

    "Will banning faith preserve your fragile egos."

    What does a public school system have to do with banning faith? Oh that's right, you don't go to church. You belong to a secret sect that can only pray in a school.

    "I'm here to tell you, it isn't going to happen in Canada."

    I appreciate the ominous, veiled threat implied here but the fact is you're in the minority... and dramatically so. The fact that you're not bright enough to recognize it should only serve to reinforce the resolve of people who oppose you. You're still a twit.
  36. Geoffrey Knapper from Toronto, Canada writes: Finally some people with the gumption to stand up for what is right! End religious school funding -- religion has no place in a 21'st century public education system. The constitutional amendment that guaranteed roman catholic schools never contemplated a secular public system, it was made as a reaction to a burgeoning protestant system. To defend its existence on the basis is it in the constitution is disingenuous to say the least.

    Lets provide a quality secular public school system and leave religion to the individuals homes, churches, mosques and temples -- where it belongs.
  37. Tired Ofitall from toronto, Canada writes: If the claim here is that the Green Party is all for removal of funding for Catholic schools - then they get my vote! I have been a Conservative supporter my entire voting life and John Tory's insane stance on funding for all religous schools has taken this nonsense too far. This man is so out of touch with reality!
  38. Eric MacKinnon from Canada writes: The education minister's response is the right one - ignore this off-the-wall proposal from CCLA. Those who speak of removing "religion" from the schools mean all other religions but their own which is secular humanism. They certainly are not for "liberty" when it comes to choice in education.
  39. The Real PS from Canada writes: Henry Allen from Toronto, Canada writes: If parents want to indoctrinate their children with particular religious views, let them do it with their own money, but not one penny of taxpayer money.

    Henry, where do you think the taxpayer money comes from? It's (partially) from the parents who want to "indoctrinate their children" as you put it (not that I agree with that definition) so why should they have to pay for other people's kids going to school and then pay again for their own kids.

    It's just fundamentally unfair.
  40. L White from Canada writes: Rob Misek -- You're a hysterical fear-mongerer. No one is trying to ban faith. I would argue that teachers are not qualified to instruct my children on faith. That's why I leave that important job to my pastor and my family.
  41. dave srigley from TO, Canada writes: John Tory isn't "out of touch with reality" at all. He knows that there are huge numbers of votes to be won in the Islamic community on this issue. It's unhyphenated-Canadians who had better get in touch with reality. Islam is making huge political inroads in this country and demographically it will soon have more potential votes than the Quebecois separatists. We need to ask ourselves NOW if this is what we want for the future of our nation.
  42. Paul Bullock from Jersey, United Kingdom writes: It is patently obvious that segregation in early life leads to segregation in later life. Canada does not need this. The segregation of Catholic students, while unjustifiable, has not been a disaster because so much of Christendom is similar. Segregation of all faiths currently resident in Canada from each other will be a disaster because the differences will be accentuated, little common ground will be found, and Canada will find itself a state of many nations in 2 generations.

    Thankfully, we are a state based on rule of law not one's God du jour. Educational funding must reflect this.

    Misek, I strongly suspect you're (irrationally) also against burqas and sikhs' daggers but you're going to get more not less of them under your plan.
  43. L R from cambridge, Canada writes: how about teaching world religion in the public school system? Let's educate eachother about all beliefs and customs and grow maybe a little more tolerance.
  44. Tired Ofitall from toronto, Canada writes: Based on the latest demographics information I could find, Catholics make up 37% of Ontario's population. Hardly a majority but......

    Any major party would consider ir political suicide to attempt to put any repeal of Catholic funding on their election platform - as Catholics would likely unite en masse to ensure that party never got elected. Its a terrible thought but likely true.

    The only way we could end this insanity would be through courage of one leader - someone who would champion this change.

    I cannot think of any leader who would have the balls to do this.
  45. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Eric MacKinnon: "Those who speak of removing "religion" from the schools mean all other religions but their own which is secular humanism."

    Please. That's an old and pitiful tactic employed by religions in the United States to blur the separation between church and state. They do it by claiming that NOT being religious is a religion. It's a ludicrous argument, born out of desperation.

    Secular humanism isn't a religion, it's a philosophy, and not a particularly popular one at that. Schools are not being taken over by secular humanists and you damn well know it.

    I hate stuff like this. It always brings the wingnuts out of the woodwork.
  46. Noise Machine from London, Canada writes: One would think that the civil liberties people would want to end the practice of infanticide, but they don't. Liberalism with it's emphasis on indulging the individual has resulted in 20 000 teen abortions nation wide and a culture based upon materialism ( consumption ( which is having a deleterious affect on our biosphere -global warming. We do not need more secular values but more restraint, self control, humility, and sharing, which are he core values of most religions. And the education system in Ontario is too expensive, pedagogically challenged, and in need of a massive tune-up which could easily be provided by competition.
  47. William Vander Wilp from Kingston, Canada writes: If we're going to try to remove religion from public schools, the posters on this board demonstrate the need to acknowledge that atheism/secular humanism is as much a belief system ("religion") as any other ang get rid of that, too. The number of so called tolerant people posting here who apparently don't see the irony in vitrolic attacks on anyone supporting religious funding is sad.


    How about this for a solution: Cancel all public funding to all schools. Reduce everyone's taxes by that amount and leave it up to the parents to decide where to send their kids and their money. I suspect that those who are already used to putting their money where their mouths are (in addition to supporting the public system with their taxes) will have no problem with that. The rest of you, who are so eager to put your own restrictions on the spending of other peoples' tax money, can then vote with your own wallets.
  48. asm oak bay from Canada writes: I wonder if the so-called Civil Liberties Assocaition would play this fast and loose with the entrenched constitutional rights of aboriginals or the criminally accused as they do with those of Catholics? Somehow I doubt it. I wonder if they would say that right to counsel is fine, but only if you can afford it. legal adi should be done away with? Somehow I doubt it. How then is it any different to say that Catholics have a right to a Catholic education, but only if they pay for it themselves with their after tax dollars. Why should Catholics be forced to subsidize a secular school system that they do not want and do not use? A shameful day for so called civil libertarians. Finally, can't the Globe do something about the anti catholic bigots who tiresomely and continually plague any post board concerning Catholic issues? They are small minded, ignorant bigots and they should not be given a national platform.
  49. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: Yeah OK. Good luck with getting rid of the Catholic School system. My three children go to Catholic schools and none are Cathloic. I went there originally because it had a better program for Autism then the public system.

    Once in the system I realized it has better everything then the public system so I put my two daughters in to the Catholic system.

    It is run more efficiently, schools to many children and is a part of our system. You will not get rid of it. The people will not let you.
  50. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For William Vander Wilp: "the posters on this board demonstrate the need to acknowledge that atheism/secular humanism is as much a belief system ("religion") as any other ang get rid of that, too"

    To be clear, a lack of belief is a belief? How many "practicing" athiests do you know? Have you ever seen an agnostic spend an hour going through complex weekly religious rites? People who do not believe are not part of some secret society just because you wish it so. Your argument isn't even rational.

    "Cancel all public funding to all schools. Reduce everyone's taxes by that amount and leave it up to the parents to decide where to send their kids and their money."

    Great solution! Kick ALL poor people out of school! Eliminate services for the disenfranchised! Please think through your "ideas".
  51. B D from Canada, Canada writes: There should be one public schoolboard. To be fair, people who elect to send their kids to a private or religious school should receive some form of tax credit, or they are effectively paying twice. ALL schools in Ontario, whether public or private, should be required to conform to a baseline Ontario curriculum (that includes a module on world religions) and should be under a common regulatory body. And the curriculum should raise the bar.
  52. James C. from chaozhou, guangdong, China writes: arent catholic schools protected by the constitution in some way? as one of the founding nations of the country i dont think its that easy or simple to take away the right for catholics to have their own publicly funded school system. someone correct me if i'm wrong please.
  53. Tired Ofitall from toronto, Canada writes: Goodness.....you certainly can tell who the Catholics are here. The reason we 'target' Catholics is that they are the only religion being given full public funding - something we oppose for all religions. It just so happens that Catholics are enjoying this because of the idiocy of a politician 30-some years ago.

    This has nothing to do with being anti-religious or supporting some pro-demonic cult......it has everythign to do with separation of church and state - the fundamentals of a good democratic society.

    Freedom of religion is always guaranteed - as is freedom from religion!

    Let the public schools do their job - educate - and let the churches (and whatever the buildings of other religions are called) do theri job and thats provide spiritual guidance for their people.
  54. J Broomer from Toronto, Canada writes: Nearing the end of the 2006/07 school year, my sister-in-law faced a choice, send her daughter (now entered into grade 9) to her home public school (which now basically has the reputation of a war zone, much like every other public high school in north Etobicoke) or send her to the brand new (as in so new they haven't completed construction, slated for late in the year) Catholic high school, which is only a five minute walk from home. Wow, what a tough decision to make. Incredibly, this isn't the only new contruction in our area by the Catholic Board. All I hear at our school council meetings and in the media is how TDSB schools are falling apart and parents need to give more time and money to support our childrens' education. Meanwhile the Catholic Board appears to be awash in money, some of it mine. If I have to convert to ensure my kids go to that same high school in three years, I surely will, just to get my fair share of my taxes returned to me.
  55. d w from Canada writes: Faith based schools are not fully funded by the government in most cases. Shutting down of faith based schools would cost the government, and ultimately our taxes would go up.
  56. Opinion in Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Finally, a position with sense. Either fund ALL religions or NO religion. I favour the latter. The status quo cannot and should not prevail: it is highly discriminatory and unfair.
  57. DESMOND C PREECE from Canada writes: Rob Misek wrote Tolerance, Equality, Truth and Morality are the touchstones of Religion.
    History refutes that statement.
    At last another group has taken a stand against Faith Based schooling.
    I stand by my comments, made last week. that the current system and the proposal of John Tory has and will lead to Ghettoes of Superstition.
  58. M Spiker from Stittsville, Canada writes: In Ottawa we take it one step further (down Bill Davis's stupidity trail), we also segregate by language.

    How can growing up with only children of your own religion and/or ethnicity be good for Ontario?

    I agree that if we allow this for Catholics we should allow it for other religions but multiple wrongs do not make it right. The Ontario system is immoral, devisive, expensive, and destroying public education in this province. On the other hand it is creating jobs for teachers and school administrators.

    For comparison: I used to live in a Massachusetts town with the same population as Stittsville. It had 1 elementary school and 1 high school. Stittsville has at least 6 elementary but only 1 (English-Catholic) high school -- where is the logic in this and who do you think is getting a better education!
  59. B C from Toronto, Canada writes: Religion is a cancerous growth on society. It fuels ethnic hatred and endangers rational thought. Finally a group with the guts to state the obvious: we must fight back against the quest for power by the religious within our midst.
  60. Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes: I agree with ending Faith based school funding.
    The thing that struck me as hypocritical,was Mcguinty's fierce attack on John Tory for his stance.
    I don't agree with John Tory's position,but for McGuinty to condemn Tory for supporting faith based funding,while McGuinty sends his kids to faith based schools,and his wife works at a faith based school....
    Hypocracy??
  61. Mark Bezanson from Pairs, Ontario, Canada writes: This debate seems to avoid the core question as to the nature of persons. I believe the current resurgence in religious radicalism among many nations and societies may well be a reaction to a secular philosophy that suggests the spiritual part human nature is secondary and irrelevant. Many youth today are searching for spiritual resources as part of their overall growth and maturity. Perhaps we need legislation for both faith-based and public schools to include comparative religious studies, and then allow for individual study of specific religions based on student interest. Faith perspectives and ethics are often linked. Our students do need to reflect on the meaning of the good, the just, and the basics of virtue. Faith-based and public schools will assist this process, especially if comparative studies of religion are taught with a critical ethics perspective.
  62. frederick duquette from Edmonton, Canada writes: It would be useful to know roughly what it would cost to end funding to Catholic schools: who owns the school property? If its the church, then they could sell to hungry land developers - would the public board have to spend billions in a schools construction project, land acquisition, court and lawsuits costs, bussing students; we are talking about 40% of the school population. Maybe Ontario is getting a deal with the status quo.

    Its amazing how virulently anti-religous sentiment runs: rather than the debate focus on the behemoth that the public boards have bloated into, costing billions per year, we are worried about a marginalized, harmless, irrelevant and declining percentage of the population costing us what the janitors union will expect as a raise for next year. They should be funded as an endangered species.
  63. Ken Ketchum from Ottawa, Canada writes: The CCLA is exactly right, but only the green party has the guts to promise to do this. That's why I'm strongly considering voting green next month.
  64. XiaoYan Zhang from Toronto, Canada writes: This is an excellent initiative and will truly strengthen the progressive and secular base of Canada. Religion should always be a private matter and thus should be treated as such especially when it comes to public funding. Tory's idea of public funding to all religion based school would severely polarize the society and encourage the division instead of integration of the people from different background. After all, we have migrated to this promising land to seek the common ground, harmony, and humanity. As a Christian, I feel privileged to have the freedom to practice religion, but not a right to demand to be funded by other tax payers.
  65. Harper is Da Man? from Canada writes: The irony of a "civil liberties" group trying to BAN an entire school system is too much!
  66. Ferris Bueller from Canada writes: Tired Ofitall from toronto, Canada writes: Based on the latest demographics information I could find, Catholics make up 37% of Ontario's population. Hardly a majority but......

    Quebec and NF were 80-90 percent catholic and they got it done.
    True, it will take someone with conviction and principles -
    But wouldn't it be better to allow Full school chocie for all parents rather than work the opposite direction to ensure mediocrity?
  67. Robert West from Canada writes: It is time to get the government out of the education system altogether.
    This whole quaint notion that governments should educate kids only started about 120 years ago.
    Government run education is mind control just like religious educational institutions.
  68. Peter S from Toronto, Canada writes: One more reason to vote Green in the provincial election as they are the only party willing to take a stand against funding ANY religious schooling.
  69. Henry Allen from Toronto, Canada writes: The Real PS, if parents want to pay for public education through their tax dollars and then also pay out of their pockets for the separate religious indoctrination of their children, that is their choice. However, I strongly disagree that taxpayers should be required to pay for this separate religious indoctrination. You express discomfort with the word indoctrination. The word is entirely appropriate. Indoctrination means the process of teaching a partisan or sectarian point of view, a perfect definition of religious teaching.
  70. Noise Machine from London, Canada writes: The fact of the mater is that the secularists want their own belief system to be publicly funded at the expense of all others. They try to pretend that they are value neutral but nothing could be more disengenuious. Public schools are teaming with radical liberalism, and some schools are on the verge of anarchy. And as in tune parents know there are peer lessons (latent values) in concert with the radical liberal values (manifest) promoted by the school board.

    If these folks had an ounce of spine they'd be willing to allow their product to compete in a free market type of environment, which could easily be done via a voucher system. But rather than put their money where their mouths are, they argue for a totalitarian system in which parents really do not have any choice. This is wrong!!!!
  71. Tommy Shanks from Canada writes: "It's time to get religion out of all of the schools," says Noa Mendelsohn Aviv...

    but Noa, secularism IS a religion
  72. Bart Farquart from Calgaria, Canada writes:
    The CCLA idea is defensible.

    John Tory's idea is also defensible.

    What is not acceptable is the status quo, where one faith (in fact one denomination of one faith) gets funding to the exclusion of all others.

    McGuinty's defense of highly selective faith-based school funding, particularly in light of his personal links to Catholicism, reflect poorly upon him.

    And this is not just an Ontario issue.
  73. Delphine St. Jacques from Barrie, Canada writes: To Rob Misek: I was raised and educated as a Catholic in the Catholic education system, as my children are now. However, if it is the same kind of tolerance and morality that you have been espousing on this forum that is taught in our Catholic schools, then I want no part of it.

    That said, I wholly agree that Catholic based education should not be publically funded. Churches, which already enjoy tax exemptions and which, for the most part, sit idle for most of the week, should be undertaking the task of religious education. I send my children to school to learn the 3 r's, not one of which should include religion. They go to church for that. Moreover, as a parent, it is MY obligation to teach my children values, morals and tolerance. Not the eduation system!
  74. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Tommy Shanks: "secularism IS a religion"

    Uh sure, but just because someone is not a member of an organized religion, that does not make them somehow secularist by default. The fact that you can't pigeonhole "non-believers" into a neat little derogatory reference really bothers you, doesn't it?

    In any case, "secularism" is not taught in public schools. There is, to my knowledge, no religious classes taught in public schools so your argument is moot.
  75. Gavin Neil from Canada writes: Extending funding to catholic schools was a political reality back when the constitution was framed. Two wrongs don't make a right. We've done as much as w can to make the catholic system as public and secular as possible, but just because we can't get rid of it altogether doesn't mean we should extend funding to every other faith. Anyone who says that just because catholics get it everyone should is making a completely irrational argument. It's also impractical (how big a community will be entitled to funding) and potentially anti-Canadian (what if my church teaches that whites are superior or that the holocaust was a myth or that martyrdom in the name of creating a Canadian-Islamic state is laudable?).

    The mere fact that the catholic system exists is NOT relevant to the present debate.
  76. Gail Thomas from Canada writes: Religion is not a cancer on our society as stated above. It is ignorance and want, accompanied by intolerance, much of which is shown by most comments here. Our society is becoming more and more like "old Rome" with secularism, idol worship, consumption and will eventually fall. People that believe in nothing, have nothing and nothing matters anymore.
  77. Noise Machine from London, Canada writes: Here are some secular values

    Choice, except in education
    women can chose to abort and 20 000 teens per year in Canada make this choice

    Same Sex Relationships
    no problem here but should it be openly promoted by entering a float in the Toronto Gay Parade?

    Materialism
    This is promoted in a latent way

    Entitlement
    students want to wear provocative clothes, socialize during class time, and project their failures onto the system. Taking responsibility for their actions is happening less and less.

    Glorification of the Career
    Classrooms do not encourage girls to think of motherhood or being home makers. This antiquated idea went out the window when school boards ditched Dick and Jane. Girls must pursue something more nobel.

    If it Feels Good, Do It

    no fault divorce, fifty ways to leave your lover, if you can't love the one you want, love the one you're with

    Result

    fertility problem 1.4 children per female
    we're dying folks

    Global Warming
    our massive consumption is having a deleterious affect on the biosphere

    Greed
    Canada gives less than 1.4% of GDP to foreign aid. Pearson suggested 7%
    Canada is the fourth largest consumer of world resources

    Abdication of International Responsibilities
    we support the UN when it fits

    Self Centerdness

    We are the antithesis of John F. Kennedy's slogan of, "Ask not what your country can do for you;ask what you can do for your country." Trudeau argued just the opposite.
  78. Brent Van Osch from Kitchener, Canada writes: Wow, I didn't realize that many people are so threatened by religion. I guess freedom of religion is okay so long as it isn't being practiced. "Cancerous" and "hatred" associated with religions... I must have missed the day they taught that lesson at my Catholic elementry school. Then, because there were no Catholic high schools where I lived, I went to a public high school. Despite coming from a Catholic school, believe it or not, I already knew most of the non-Catholic kids who were to be my classmates because they were my neighbours, my teammates at hockey, members of other clubs (dare I say 4-H?), kids of my parent's friends. So this hogwash about faith based school funding creating isolation from society doesn't mix with me as it doesn't relate to my own personal experience. Moreover, who is to say putting everyone in the same system is going to create this ideal homogeneous yet multicultural society? So we expect our public education system to not only educate, but to assimilate? Isn't that asking a bit much? Do you not realize the kids congregate into their own little groups now, regardless? Are you afraid that if a Muslim-based school is set-up, that those kids are going to turn out to be jihadists? I'm not. (That said, I haven't a clue to vote for next month).
  79. Mike B from Kingston, Canada writes: Gotta love the Education Minister. "I'm not going to talk about this we are in the middle of an election campaign". She must be taking a page from the Kim Campbell election strategy..... My goodness.
  80. G. Canadian from Canada writes: For all of you who think there should be no religion in school, what do you think secularism and humanism are if not religions. Why should public schools teach tolerance as if tolerance was a virtue? Why must they teach that homosexual lifestyles are okay? Isn't that imposing a viewpoint on people? Isn't that intolerant? Extreme environmentalism, where people end up treating the earth as if it was a god or goddess, is likewise a religion.
  81. Bubbles McBubbles from Trawna, Canada writes: It's easy to see where this is going. The major parties are gutless. They will never alienate such a large block of voters by eliminating funding to the Catholic system. We will soon be facing a Supreme Court challenge to "level" the so-called playing field and we will be forced to fund every state-sanctioned cult out there. At which point I will be starting my own fully-funded religious training school - The Church of the Chocolate Bunny. My creed: Eat me!
  82. asm oak bay from Canada writes: Why are secularists so threatened by people of faith? I am a practicing Catholic and I am not the least bit threatened by the prospect of Jewish or Muslim children being educated in faith based schools. This is how we develop well rounded, thoughtful, intelligent children into adults who know how to incorporate their faith into all aspects of their being. Secondly, why do secularists want people of faith to fund secular schools? Is it to allow secularists a free ride? I think so. It is utterly unfair to expect people of faith to fund the secular system and then have to use their after tax dollars to fund the faith based education system that is designed to meet the needs of their own children.
  83. Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes: Gavin Neil from Canada writes: Extending funding to catholic schools was a political reality back when the constitution was framed. Two wrongs don't make a right. We've done as much as w can to make the catholic system as public and secular as possible, but just because we can't get rid of it altogether doesn't mean we should extend funding to every other faith. Anyone who says that just because catholics get it everyone should is making a completely irrational argument. It's also impractical (how big a community will be entitled to funding) and potentially anti-Canadian (what if my church teaches that whites are superior or that the holocaust was a myth or that martyrdom in the name of creating a Canadian-Islamic state is laudable?).

    The mere fact that the catholic system exists is NOT relevant to the present debate.
    Posted 24/09/07 at 10:00 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
    Not relevent???? It defines the word "relevent".
  84. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: Wow, if this thing spreads any further then all those so called Ontario Canadians living in Lebanon will want a funded school. Believe it or knot!
  85. Noise Machine from London, Canada writes: We need a voucher system

    Let market forces drive the success of the school

    Gut the system of expensive middle-men
    principals, trustees, superintendents etc

    Let parents have the power to influence the agenda of their child's school

    Get rid of the blood-sucking socialists who advocate totalitarian education.

    Make some noise!!!!!
  86. Anti Fascist from Canada writes: What a brilliant stroke of insight. Welcome to the present folks, it is well past time for all religion to be booted out public schools. I would also call for taxation on all monies given to all religious institutions. Time to step out of the age of superstition.
  87. Jake Richardson from kingston, Canada writes: Amazing that one has to read this comment board to discover that this proposal mirrors the green party's position. Perhaps if they, the choice of 1 in 10 Ontarians, had been at the debate, we would have already known this fact.
  88. Graham Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Religious groups have had a free ride at the tax payers expense for far too long. Government should stop funding religious activities of any kind thus upholding the basic democratic principle of separation of Church and State. If the Catholic School Board is the first casualty of this long over due policy then so be it.
  89. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: To be clear:

    1. I am NOT a secularist. Secularism is a particular philosophy and just because I don't believe in YOUR religion, that doesn't automatically make me a secularist. It isn't a default category, so get over it.

    2. I do NOT want to have my taxes thinly spread trying to fund potentially dozens of different school boards. If I have to pay the money, I would prefer it to be used EFFICIENTLY.

    3. Separate and Private schools, by definition, have the option to reject students while the Public Board does not. By the very nature of the process, private schools have the advantage of claiming superior quality by off-loading their problems onto someone else. I have no interest in paying for government-approved elitism.

    If any of this is unclear, or if any of you would like to specifically address these issues, I'd be happy to listen. If you want to question my integrity or my honesty, you'd better learn a lot more about me than you know now.