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It's not you, it's meat

PATRICK WHITE

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 1:59 PM EDT 27/09/07

In kitchens across the country, love lives hang in the balance: Can herbivores and omnivores really co-exist? It takes soy, salad and a whole lot of compromise ...Read the full article

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  1. Luna Nova from Canada writes: Ehn - boring.
    I've been a vegetarian my entire life - whatever. My husband is a true German, meat and potatoes guy. I eat my tofu, he has his steak. No big deal. Together 12 years. Methinks if you're fighting about what each other eats, you've got far bigger problems.
  2. Dan Van Gageldonk from toronto, Canada writes: My fiancee is a vegetarian and we have no problems whatsoever. We all have our differences but if your committed to respecting your partner it shouldn't be an issue. It helps that I will eat anything so whatever she cooks I will either eat it as is or sometimes cook some meat on the side and add it at the end. I agree with Luna Nova, if this is a problem in your marriage I believe it is more of a symptom of other issues within your marriage.
  3. Craig Cooper from toronto, writes: I like my women to have close-set eyes and incisors -- and a brain that is capable of understanding why humans have those features.
  4. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Frankly, am tired of the whole thing. Never in the history of this sad planet, have we had so much overwhelming wasteful choice in what we eat.

    To sit in a restaurant and grill the server with-----

    'is there any msg in this?
    can I have the chicken salad with no chicken?
    have the veges been touched by a living creature?
    Is this tofu organic?
    Can't have any honey, been touched by the bee
    Why don't you serve BC wine?
    I smell cigarette smoke!
    Is this tap water?

    and on and on and on----------while most of our sad planet is starving, dying of thirst, and would eat just about anything.

    Vegetarians are by far, the pickiest, fussiest, pushiest people I know. I have a number as friends (mostly women), and I hate going out to eat with them, always a big uncomfortable ordeal---- so I don't, simple.

    I have heard all the arguments, and yes, agree with a lot of them. I am aware of what I consume and try to be conscious of how my habits affect my environment. However, have some perspective please.
  5. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: oh, and forgot. I work in the service industry------guess who complains the most about their meals??

    almost always
  6. Melanie Best from Toronto, Canada writes: F/A Josquin from van: Oh, presumptuous and intolerant one! You wrote that: 'Vegetarians are by far, the pickiest, fussiest, pushiest people I know. I have a number as friends (mostly women), and I hate going out to eat with them, always a big uncomfortable ordeal---- so I don't, simple. I have heard all the arguments, and yes, agree with a lot of them. I am aware of what I consume and try to be conscious of how my habits affect my environment. However, have some perspective please.' F/A Josquin from van, let me broaden your excessively narrow perspective, my firend. I can appreciate the AFFECTATIONS your vegetarian grilfriends seem to accesorize themselves with. They ARE out with you, aren't they? Let me point something out to you. Any parent with kids in school can tell you that some kids are highly allergic to peanuts, which are banned from most schools. Some people are HIGHLY allergic to shellfish; consuming it can kill them in minutes. I have heard such persons ask (esp. in Asian-cuisine restaurants): 'Can you assure me that there is absolutely no shredded shellfich in this?' I once saw someone receive an affirmative answer, and be hauled out on a strwetcher not 5 minutes after taking his first bite. Believe it of not, F/A josquin from van, some people are allergic to meat. Some of us have valid reasons to ask for assurances that no meat juices are inadvertently included in the dish I order. Believe it of not, F/A josquin from van, some people are born and bred Hindus who do not EAT meat and haven't for thousands of years. Believe it of not, F/A josquin from van, many of us have valid reasons to ask for assurances that no meat juices are inadvertently included in the dish I order. F/A josquin from van, I hope this has served to broaden your narrow and intolerant perspective.
  7. Johnny Red from Canada writes: Some people need to RELAX and not worry about it.

    The article is about conflicting diets in a relationship, in public what difference does it make if a total stranger or casual acquaintance doesn't eat meat?

    As a meat-lover myself, there's no way I could convert to a vegetarian diet (no matter how many times vegetarians try to convince me, tofu tastes awful & I can't stand soy milk) -- but if the girl I was with was truly a great match for me otherwise, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to adapt meals accordingly.

    And I can't stress this enough...RELAX people, it's not that big of a deal that we have to generalize and disparage each other.
  8. L F from Canada writes: Mr. Berry I presume is a very tolerant loving and understanding chap. With words like repulsive being used to describe kissing an omnivore he is so kind I’m sure women flock to him. I think he is rather narrow minded in his assessment of omnivores who are practising life the way it was meant to be for humans. We have teeth and digestive systems that make it preferable to digest a mixed diet and until the scientific community proves that it is safe for pregnant women and developing children to go without the amino acids and minerals that meat provides I am leery.
    Does Mr. Berry wash his mouth out after consuming vegetarian fares that is known to cause foul smelling breath such as garlic and onions or does he only think the odour of meat is unpleasant? It comes down to personal hygiene rather than food preference. I think in a free country everyone can make their own decisions on how to eat but we must also stop judging each other or expect the other side to change because you think you have “educated” them. This is not education rather brain washing pressure to convert them to your standard of what is correct.
  9. Da Puma from Canada writes:
    I'm not against vegetarianism, but I've often wondered why many of the products are based around meat? For instance, veggie burgers, veggie hot dogs, tofurkey, and the like...if a person chooses not to eat meat, why would they want to be constantly reminded of it?
  10. Dr. Sartor from Victoria, Canada writes: F/A josquin: Concerned about world hunger? Then stop taking food out of the mouths of the hungry by eating meat, which is an extremely inefficient way of producing protein. Concerned about the environment? Meat production requires vastly more land (for all the crops that need to be grown to feed the animals in the inefficient protein-conversion process), pollutes water, and massively contributes to greenhouse gases. (Google 'Livestock a major threat to environment' for the FAO report.)

    Craig Cooper: I imagine some women would like to meet a man smart enough to understand that morality is all about deciding what we ought not to do, despite being able to do it (e.g., rape, murder, lying, stealing).

    But animals eat others animals, don't they? Cows? Pigs? Deer? Rabbits? Serves them right when we eat them.

    As the cannibal said, 'If God didn't want us to eat other people, why did He make them out of meat?'
  11. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Heh Melanie, I travel for a living and eat around the world, on a weekly basis. I enjoy vegetarian dishes as much as the next person, often more.

    I want to thank you for bolstering my argument. Allergic to meat juice indeed. We were built for meat.

    Indians don't eat meat purely for religious reasons, not for health. Don't get me started on religion, you will regret it.

    Balance is the answer no------yin and yang in everything, and all that

    I am serious.
  12. grover station from Hamilton, Canada writes: Two cannibals are eating a clown. One says to the other 'Does this taste funny to you?'
  13. Melanie Best from Toronto, Canada writes: F/A Josquin:

    You imply that other people's beliefs and feelings mean nothing to you. I - and probably most others - already knew that. I chose to not use the term 'odious intolerant gasbag' in my earlier postinf since I consider discretion to be the better part of valour. But you are not familiar with those concepts, so you forced my hand.

    CLICK.
  14. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: I once saw a program where the woman being interviewed called herself a 'Flexitarian'

    will eat meat once a month and only if it is organic------

    the announcer had a hard time controlling the giggles.

    Balance------hard to achieve at times, but much healthier, and probably good for the planet as well.
  15. C Darwin from Ottawa, Canada writes: Dear Melanie Best,

    Natural selection.

    Regards,

    Charles.
  16. w forward from United States writes: F/A josquin from van, I agree with you entirely. I have gone from vegetarian to omnivore and back depending on the available supply of organic vegetables and free-range or wild meat. My friends consist veggies and omnis and we share meals regularly without a hitch. Turning this into an issue of conflict is the product of a group of individuals with too much time on thier hands and little challenge in life.

    Mr. Berry sounds like a bad date indeed. I would counter that the stench of sanctimony from 'moral' vegetarians is far more repugnant than the sight of a piece of flesh on a cutting board.
  17. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Dr Sartor-----oh dear, here we go----I have read, heard and digested all the arguments. I don't condone the way we produce it either.

    We need changes in ALL our food-producing practises (flora and fauna).

    Balance man
  18. Franklin Mint from Toronto, Canada writes: Melanie Best:

    You go, girl! From where I stand, the current score is:

    Melanie Best - 10 VERSUS F/A Josquin - 0

    Melanie, angry waitservice employees think they have cornered the market on 'how to behave.' F/A Josquin is likely among the waitserving hordes who approach their clients with the usual canadian: 'So, what'll you guys be having?' or 'What can I git fer youz guyz.'

    Melanie, you stooped to conquer, and you gave a very good show. Thanks a bunch. I appreciate your humour as well as your balanced perspective.
  19. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: That's right Melanie-----a gasbag, who believes the world will have a chance if we find a balance in everything. If you notice ( in my ranting) I desire a little pragmatism is all..

    We need to take a deep breath, calm down a bit, and tackle things(everything) with a level head. That's all I am saying. Poking fun at extremists is my way of proving my point. Extremists in any human activity (eating, in this case) always always go too far, and become a little ridiculous, and a little dangerous at the same time.

    Being strictly this or strictly that has never solved anything.

    And you really didn't click off----you were dying to see if I would answer.
  20. Johnny Red from Canada writes: Franklin, I dare you to try being a waiter for one week.

    F/A is the only balanced perspective on this thread.
  21. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Franklin-----I always find the people with the best, the most interesting stories, are the smokers outside at the tables.

    Not the puckered up sour pusses inside, smugly peering out the windows.
  22. It is Me from Canada writes: I am a vegetarian and I think a few clarifications are in order:

    -Granted, extremism is always bad, but under 'normal' circumstances, eating meat has no justification whatsoever. The truly ethical thing to do is to just back-off meat. Of course, when situations are not 'normal' (ex, war, food shortages, crisis, etc) then the conditions have changed and in extreme caes, I would even eat another human being if that was required for my survival.

    -Humans were not 'made' to eat meat. What does that even mean? If we base our biology with that of true meat eaters, there are more differences than similarities. Try cooling your body through your mouth.

    -Even if we were 'naturally' inclined to eat meat, natural inclination shoudl not dicatate our actions. 'Is' does not entail 'ought'.

    -Ethical vegeterians have no right to impose thier beliefs on others, granted. But they do have a right to voice thier concerns and to make it known that they feel eating meat is morally wrong. Most people would also voice thier opinions when they encounter somethign they consider to be 'wrong'.

    -Balance is not always the goal in life. Complete extremism isn't either. But a 90-10 or even an 80-20 approach is sometimes the way to go.
  23. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: AND NO-----for those of you who will hang me for that.

    I don't condone smoking, in fact, will be vocal on that when needed-----I just refuse to join the hanging posse.
  24. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: there we go------'says it is me from Canada----eating meat is morally wrong'

    morally wrong----thank you Ayattolah---I had no idea I was such a sinner until you told me.
  25. web warlock from Toronto, Canada writes: Dr. Andrew Weil, former vegetarian, now eats fish for nutritional reasons. That's MEAT.
    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400149

    Why does he eat meat? There are links between insufficient omega 3 intake and mental and emotional problems.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1924088,00.html
  26. Kevin Dooley from Canada writes: This article and much of the discussion on this board is absolutely fatuous silliness. I'm a veggie, and have been for many many years. My wife is a meat eater. We have absolutely no problems with it because we accept one another as we actually are. I do the cooking, mostly because I really enjoy cooking and she doesn't. So, as a result our daughter is a vegetarian as well. We don't begrudge my wife her meat, as long as I don't have to cook it (which would be a mistake anyway because I don't know how to cook with meat). No big deal.

    And as far as the discussion on this board... why is there this enduring myth about vegetarians being fussy and judgmental? In my experience it's the meat eaters who tend to be defensive. They often see my refusal to eat meat as a moral judgment on them rather than a personal decision that doesn't actually have anything to do with them. I don't care what you eat - wood chips, rocks and bits of glass, whatever. So why do you feel threatened by what I don't eat?
  27. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: heh Kevin------did you read the post that says it is 'morally wrong' to eat meat?

    I don't care what you think of my eating habits. I care about extremism in all areas of our lives. This thread is just one example of going overboard, and quite possibly doing more harm than good ,o oneself and one' environment.

    You notice I do not disagree with the anger against meat production. I often go for weeks without meat protein, and when I have it, am aware of any ramifications.

    I rail against the rabid, noisy adherents to vegetarianism, to any 'holier than thou' movement.
  28. It is Me from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: 'there we go------'says it is me from Canada----eating meat is morally wrong'

    morally wrong----thank you Ayattolah---I had no idea I was such a sinner until you told me. '

    Hmm, so I guess you never make moral judgements? A kind of 'relativist' are you? Does that mean that if I say 'beating children is morally wrong' I am now a religious fanatic? Come on F/A. You can do better than that.
  29. Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: I am an omnivore and once dated a vegan. Talk about picky, that was a mistake! I could date a vegetarian but never again a vegan. These people are so extreme and narrow in their food consumption.
  30. Franklin Mint from Toronto, Canada writes: F/A Josquin:

    People who choose to follow the dietary guidelines of their religion which predates this country by several thousands of years can hardly be referred to as fanatics, which you say.

    However, you come across as some kind of Nutritional Nazi, berating any and everyone who dares diverge from your perspective.

    Get back on the Lithium, man. You seem to need it really badly.
  31. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Now how did we get to 'beating children' please, let's not get carried away.

    We are talking about a little strip of chicken, a small bit of medium rare beef.
  32. Luna Nova from Canada writes: EXACTLY Kevin! You've got it spot on. I generally don't even tell people I'm a vegetarian because automatically it becomes a point of debate. I don't want to hear about how we are born to eat meat and what you think about vegetarians. I don't eat meat. Why do you care? It's been over 25 years, you're not likely to change my mind. I also don't care if you do eat meat. My pet peeve, those who try and taunt with 'you think i'm bad for eating meat' or 'look at this bloody steak - don't you want it?'.
    Most people I work with don't even know I'm veggie. If there is absolutely nothing to eat in a restaurant or a work event, I get a salad and be done with it. As for F/A, your chosen profession is to work in the meal service industry. If you don't want to entertain questions about the food, change jobs. Cause you sound pretty miserable and cynical to me.
  33. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Franklin, Franklin how mistaken can you be-----you have missed my point completely, which isn't all that surprising.
  34. It is Me from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: 'Now how did we get to 'beating children' please, let's not get carried away'.

    Come on F/A. Be honest here. No one is claiming to be 'holier than thou'. What I did do was make a moral judgement and then you labeled me a religious fanatic? The 'beating' example was meant to show that we ALL make moral judgements and that doesn't turn us into fanatics. You talk of 'balance' but who's being extremist now?
  35. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: So long everyone,

    off to have my breakfast----a soy protein shake, with banana and blueberries, and then later, perhaps a nice piece of salmon and some grilled veggies.
  36. Kevin Dooley from Canada writes: F/A josquin - my point is that, in my experience, most vegetarians make a personal choice that is *interpreted* as a moral judgment by meat eaters, who then get defensive and attack the vegetarian for being judgmental. Even if the vegetarian makes the decision to eschew meat for moral reasons, and even if they tell you what their moral objection to meat is, there is no particular reason to believe that this has anything to do with you. Vegetarians are typically quite able to operate in a relativistic moral universe, because we can see quite clearly that our moral compass is not the same as yours. Just because you might be a moral absolutist doesn't mean that everybody is.
  37. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Can't go until I answer this one------Luna, it is not the questions re food in a restaurant that annoy me. It is the absolute certainty the customer harbours that it is his right to have exactly what he wants, and to hell with the world.

    my point-----we are a spoiled, close-minded, mouthy animal, always have been.

    We in the rich countries now have something else to whine about-----our food. What a f----- luxury. How dare we.

    That is my point
  38. Pepper Gee from Toronto, Canada writes: I must say that tofu comes in many textures and flavours - it is not always gelatinous and does not taste like cardboard. People that have this vision of tofu have not experienced the wonderful and diverse world of tofu!

    And all of you - especially that ranter F/A josquin from van - lighten up! I wouldn't kiss you either, corpse lips!
  39. Anthony Sexton from Canada writes: You think extremist vegans are bad, wait till you meet someone who insists on only raw food (yes, both meat and veggies).

    'cooking kills the nutrients'

    snort
  40. Melanie Best from Toronto, Canada writes: KEVIN DOOLEY:

    Thank you for your most reasonable and reasoned perspective. I wish I had written that myself. Hats off to you, Kevin!
  41. Luna Nova from Canada writes: But, er, F/A, if I'm paying for the food and ingesting it, can I not inquire about what's in it? I don't think that's all that selfish and arrogant.
    What if I asked to 'hold the olives'? Does that cause your moral compass to spin out of control in rage and frustration at my egotism? Please. Again -change careers, buddy. You're burnt out! Find something you like to do (and someone you like to be with, for that matter, because you seem to be having a problem there, too!)
  42. It is Me from Canada writes: Just thought I'd add:

    There is nothing, nothing wrong in making moral judgements about our actions in the world. Granted, those judgements may be wrong (we must be opne to that possibility) but that does not bar us from making them in the first place.

    Ethical vegetarians shouldn't be shy about stating thier moral objections to meat eating (of course, with tact and at the appropriate time). When meat eaters get upset at vegetarians for making those judgements, vegetarians shouldn't try to apologize for it. If it bothers the meat eaters so much, there must be a reason for it.

    When people ask me why I don't eat meat, I tell them: 'It's a moral issue'. Doing this does not entail a moral judgement on the meat eater as a whole--no one is flawless and we all engage in 'immoral' actions during our life times. I am sure there are really bad vegeterians out there and some really good meat eaters. I've met both kinds.
  43. Melanie Best from Toronto, Canada writes: Luna Nova:

    I think that F/A's recent identification as an arrogant gasbag stabnds uncontested. Don't waste your fingertips on the dime that is not worth stooping over to pick up. Just kick it aside so that older foklks and the disabled don't trip on it. It's called 'conserving energy so you'll have some when you run across someone worth spending some energy on.'

    F/A Josquin, enjoy the salmonella (I hope). ;-)
  44. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Luna, go to Burma and say 'hold the olives'

    go to Bangladesh and tell them MSG is bad for migraines----

    go to Haiti and tell them they may have a peanut allergy.

    It is the hypocrisy, the selfishness, and the righteousness of the Melanies and the Franklins of this world that make me rant. Or is it the lack of planetary perspective perhaps?

    you and I would have more in common than you think, believe it or not
  45. B to the A to the R to the T from The left coast, Canada writes: F/A - Recently I was talking to a Chef in Australia who put things in perspective very nicely. 'Vegetarians aren't too picky or fussy. The rest of our culture isn't fussy enough. See, there is nothing more personal than what a person puts into their body.' When we met, my wife was vegan and I was vegetarian. She found previous relationships with meat eaters difficult not because she had expectations of her boyfriends but because they thought she had them. Now, I'm vegetarian who's a vegan at home. When we travel we usually adopt a vegetarian diet as its hard to travel as a vegan, especially in a country that is not English speaking. In Vancouver we frequent the many veggie restaurants (like the Nam and Foundation Lounge) or stick to ethnic joints that serve Thai, Indian, and Chinese vegetarian cuisine where there are numerous vegan options. If vegetarians complain about food more thsan others, F/A, it is because we're often relegated to a salad or steamed veggies at wedding, conferences, etc. It seems people in the service industry do not know what a complete meal is...you know carbs, fibre, protein, and a bit of fat. Furthurmore, why are meat eaters so defensive? Whenever some one mentions our diet choice. Some meat eater at the table goes on a diatribe about the virtues of meat. What is most important is to be choosy with what one eats. Ask questions. What is it? Where did it come from? How did it get here? How was it prepared? We don't want the world to change for us, we just want our boundaries respected.
  46. carol c from Canada writes: My partner is vegan, and I reckon it IS a morally superior way to eat. It is better for the environment and means nothing dies because of your or my cravings. Not killing other creatures = morally superior. Yes, there is a lot of physical evidence to show we are omnivores. So what? We have the technological capacity and food choices to get proper nutrition without eating flesh, so why don't we? Just because we are designed to walk doesn't mean we shouldn't catch the bus occasionally, or heck, even a plane.

    I still eat meat a couple of times a week thought, I do seem to require some of it. I have a lot of food allergies (dairy, wheat and sugar) that aggrivate my colitis. So when I ask if something contains wheat and then get a vicious case of the noxious farts in your restaurant I may just sit on your whiny head. HA!

    So many people ask me what I we eat, it's amazing. No meat, no dairy, no sugar, no wheat. I cook a lot, and we eat really well. This week featured brown rice bowls with veggies, nuts and tahini sauce, north african sweet potato peanut stew, grilled tofu with squash and kale. It's actually pretty easy with a bit of googling and effort. Much better for us than pre-packaged stuff too.
  47. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: And for anyone who thinks I have gone overboard on this issue---

    give your head a shake. Food is what keeps the billions of us alive no?

    Food and water, wars are fought over these.

    And our little attitudes to the production of and the distribution directly affect the planet.
  48. You (R Cote, from Toronto (South), Canada) wrote: Re: TOFU - 'It can have the consistency of a jellyfish and taste like cardboard'

    I'm fed up with this comparison -- and how many people eat raw red meat?
  49. It is Me from Canada writes: carol c from Canada writes: 'I reckon it IS a morally superior way to eat.'

    Well put. Really well put. A vegetrian is NOT in any way a fully 'better moral person' than a meat eater. Some vegeterians can be pretty sh**ty people. But when it comes to their diet (which is what we discussing) they do have a morally better one.
  50. A S from Toronto, Canada writes: I've been vegetarian for the better part of my life. Growing up in a Hindu home, I never 'missed' meat since Indian cuisine is so diverse. On occasion, I'll have fish, but I can't cook it - grosses me out! As for the better half, he's not veg, but he loves my veg cooking :-)
  51. Laura Dover from Calgary, Canada writes: F/A Josquin - I've been a vegetarian for a long time, and I find that I am usually the one making compromises. If I invited someone to my house to eat, I would make sure that they could eat what I was serving, but I find that often people won't do that for a known vegetarian. To me, that's impolite, but I don't complain and I don't glower in the corner either. I peck at the salad and eat later. The hardest part of being vegetarian is not going without meat, but the social part. People bond together through food. A lot of people are hostile to vegetarianism even if they don't say it outright. They tend to have more issues with me being vegetarian than I do with their meat-eating.
  52. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Heh B A R and T,

    when I travel and eat out I------hmmmm---- I guess I just eat, and try to make sure it is somewhat healthy and perhaps politcally correct if possible.
  53. web warlock from Toronto, Canada writes: As it happens I quite enjoy raw meat, including raw red meat. I've enjoyed many meals that included steak tartar and found it quite energizing. I also enjoy raw beef at sushi restaurants.

    I find that all the vegans I know are rather pale and thin and have health problems. I've tried vegetarianism, but it doesn't work for me: I get sick. I know vegans who developed health problems and were warned by their doctors that they had to include some meat protein, even if it's just cheese and milk, or they would die.

    No matter how much vegetarian propaganda says it's so, the facts are that not everyone can survive and be healthy on vegetables alone. Vegetable and animal sources of omega 3 fatty acids are processed differently by the body, and some people can't process them well at all; they need omega 3 from fish. As just one example, that could be why people diagnosed with ADD do much better with Omega 3 supplementation. The brain is after all composed of Omega 3 fatty acids.
  54. ss dd from vancouver, Canada writes: Has anybody noticed how some of these annoying vegetarians tend to become, given time, just a little bit too haughty and always claim the high moral ground ? They would go as far as arguing that animals have some inherent right to life, even those intentionally grown for slaughter. At the same time, no vegetable whatsoever seems to qualify for the slightest break.

    Now, here's the question: why should a chicken have more 'rights' to live than a salad ? :-)
  55. Cameron Reid from Canada writes: It is Me- in regards to you statement that 'Ethical vegetarians shouldn't be shy about stating thier moral objections to meat eating' , I invite you to replace the phrase 'ethincal vegetarians' with 'evangelical Christians' and the phrase 'meat eating' with 'homsexuality.'

    Personally, I'd rather share a table with an evangelical Christian than an Ethical vegetarian- at least most of them have the good sense to keep their socially intolorant views quiet in mixed company, something that can't be said for most 'ethical' vegetarians.

    Seriously, if you're a normal person (ie an omnivore) and yes, with 96-98% of us being non vegetarians that does make us the norm, don't bother dating an 'ethical' veggie long term unless you enjoy being condescended to on a daily basis. They're just like every other fanatic group that believe they have THE right answer- they don't see the world in shades of grey and they feel that the position of moral superiority they feel they occupy gives them the right to 'educate' everyone around them. I dated a Vegan once and it wasn't long before even her having 3 tounge piercings didn't make up for the unwanted garbage I had to listen to on a daily basis.
  56. Jamie King from Niagara-on-the-Lake, Canada writes: Re: F/A josquin from van, Canada writing: To sit in a restaurant and grill the server with----- 'is there any msg in this? can I have the chicken salad with no chicken? have the veges been touched by a living creature? Is this tofu organic? ETC... As a meat-eater, I tend to agree with many Darwinian fans who espouse the whole 'survival of the fittest' doctrine, and apply it as justification for their carnivorous ways. THIS BEING SAID, I have been married for twelve wonderful years to a vegetarian who I am convinced is on the vanguard of the newest battleground on the natural selection front. The way the world is shaping up nowadays, I dare say that carnivores are about to become an extinct breed. Back to your comments thought- F/A josquin, although I tend to agree (personally) with your frustration re: the 'ordering dance' as I call it, I have quickly and sensibly come to the conclusion that any reasonable restaurant should be quickly able to provide these answers. In addition, they should actually actively engage diners in such conversations to ensure they're providing appropriate service. If my wife is spending $50 per plate, why in the world can't she have some input with regards to what she chooses to eat? Besides the ethical choices some people choose to make, many people also cope with allergies that more or less dictate what they can or cannot eat. This is really simple. Tolerance. Live and let live. Get off the soapbox. Order a nice non-organic steak and chill out.
  57. B to the A to the R to the T from The left coast, Canada writes: F/A It takes less land to grow the same amount of plant food than it takes to grow meat food. The use of water in meat production is high as well. What do you do with the waste? Not all of it makes good fertaliser.

    It isn't hypocrisy. Its a call to world leaders to have environmentally sustainable food production.

    What upsets me is our Beef and Cattle associations who spend money and Canadian influence in third world countries on lobbying and advertising of Alberta Beef or meat eating in general. Not only is it a terrible waste of resources to ship it or grow it there, but why would you promote a habit that gives us health issues to a society that gets most of thier calories from plant food.
  58. It is Me from Canada writes: Cameron Reid from Canada:

    OK, I did what you suggested and re-phrased my statement.

    Here's the point you're missing--and it's a fundamental one. The moral view I hold is not based on any 'divine', 'super-natural' or 'etrenally true' ethic. My view is based on pure reasoning. As such, i admit that I may be wrong. Yes, I may be wrong. Second, my view is not a fundamentalist one. As I said in one of my earlier posts, given the right circumstances, I would even eat another human being if I had to survive (lke the famous Uruguayian rugby players).

    I don't have THE right answer as you suggest. What I do have is a moral belief and I am willing to state it and to debate it with you or anyone. And if I am proven, wrong, I will change.

    Now given this, if you still rather share a table with an evangelical Christian instead of me, that's not my loss.
  59. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Jamie, I travel every week, everywhere, and have for 30 years.

    I can assure you, the western world is fixated on food, obscenely so. the rest just eat to survive.

    Give me a break-------We can sit here and justify our pickiness til the sun goes down. In the end, it is just that, pickiness. Do you know, I have never had a complaint re food served from an asian, never. However, I can't count how many times a 30-40 something north american (vegetarian or not), has grimaced, complained and pouted for hours. (I work with an airline)

    We could learn a few lessons.
  60. It is Me from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van:

    Did you have your 'soy protein shake, with banana and blueberries' already?
  61. carol c from Canada writes: 'I know vegans who developed health problems and were warned by their doctors that they had to include some meat protein, even if it's just cheese and milk, or they would die. '

    Oh horsepucky. Certainly vegans have to be very careful to include certain foods and supplements in their diets and to pay a lot of attention to getting proper nutrition, but to suggest that's impossible is simply untrue. For some people I think this may very well be the case, but one look at Brendan Brazier a vegan and a professional triathelete tells us this simply isn't true.

    I wonder where you get your information about fish vs. plant based sources of Omega oils, I couldn't find anything that would indicate this after a wee google. The Lyon study which included both plant and fish based sources of omega oils doubled previous results for cardiovascual health measurements. Omega oils are present in a lot of foods - avocados, walnuts, hemp seeds and oil, flax seeds and oil, leafy greens that can be eaten in a vegan diet.
  62. It is Me from Canada writes: I really don't understand why people have such a hard time stating and defending moral principles?

    Ethical issues have been debated ever since Socrates and Aristotle. What's the big deal? Do none of you, for example, think that it's morally wrong to, for example, murder another person? Do none of you wonder whether or not the war in Iraq is morally justified or not?

    The problem is that religious fundamentalists have hijacked the moral debate--they've even hijacked the word itself!! So now when anyone uses the word 'moral', they equtae it to some sort of fanatic view.

    Try calling J.S. Mill a fanatic! I don't think so.
  63. It is Me from Canada writes: web warlock from Toronto says: 'I know vegans who developed health problems'.

    And I know meat-eaters that have developped health problems.

    Your point was?
  64. web warlock from Toronto, Canada writes: It's absolutely not horse pucky. The guy was dying from lack of animal protein. To suggest that it's possible for everyone to survive without animal protein is dangerous and irresponsible. He was a sworn vegan; believe me, if he could have survived without eating milk or cheese he would have found a way.

    To quote from Andrew Weil's site (which I linked to above)
    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400149 'Vegetarian sources, such as walnuts and flaxseeds contain a precursor omega-3 (alpha-linolenic acid called ALA) that the body must convert to EPA and DHA.'

    Got that? A precursor. That means it must be additionally processed; some people can't do this additional processing. They MUST eat fish to get the proper amounts; eating too much of the vegetarian source of ALA actually interferes with the conversion process and makes the health problems worse.

    Again, I link to an article about Joseph Hibbeln, MD, one of the leading authorities on the relationship between fat consumption and mental health. Please read it.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1924088,00.html
  65. Laura Dover from Calgary, Canada writes: Web Warlock - just so you know, Seventh Day Adventists (lacto-ovo vegetarians mostly) have a longer life expectancy than other North Americans. So do Mormons, who aren't vegetarian, but Seventh Day Adventists also have longer life expectancies than Mormons. I am not saying that vegetarianism is the perfect diet, but it's not a bad one overall.
  66. ss dd from vancouver, Canada writes: Well, it seems the argument is hopeless as the strategic high moral ground had been already conquered by the 'way of the future' vegetarians. A better aproach would be letting the 'morally superior' to keep arguing their useless case, while starving their organisms of neccesary proteins and fats. It's nothing but a another silly fad, and eventually the good old natural selection will take care of things.
    The advantage is that pretty much all these irritating characters will remove themselves from humanity's gene pool due to their inevitably damaged DNA.
    The only drawback is that it would take rather long... :-)
  67. B to the A to the R to the T from The left coast, Canada writes: Web Warlock... Many, many, studies have proven that a vegetarian diet even a vegan one is safe... Millions of people have found the way. If some one needs abnormally large amounts of DHA all then need to do is google it.
  68. Beech Nut from in the sticks, Canada writes: Vegetarianism is a religion. Vegans are the fundamentalist branch of the same church...
  69. Kevin Dooley from Canada writes: I find the diet-induced 'health problems' argument against vegetarianism particularly fatuous. Case in point, my 2-year-old daughter is a vegetarian and has been since the day she was born. If she were small or had even the slightest health problems, you know that people would instantly blame the diet. But it turns out that she's a healthy, smart, robust kid, one of the biggest and most active in her daycare class. Yet nobody, not even I would claim that it's the vegetarian diet that makes her so robust. We're just really lucky and we know it.

    Conversely, one of her closest friends is very small but otherwise healthy. Everybody (doctors, grandparents, etc) told her parents that this other girl's vegetarian diet was stunting her growth and they guilted the parents into adding a daily dose of meat into her diet. Then they started giving her hormone injections... because she's just small and that's what she actually needed.

    Conclusion, people go looking for health problems to blame on vegetarianism. It's possible to eat an unhealthy vegetarian diet (corn chips and beer), just as it's possible to eat an unhealthy meat-based diet (hot dogs and beer). But there's nothing intrinsically unhealthy to either as long it's balanced and sensible. And, in fact, because of the popular anti-vegetarian fear-mongering, I believe that vegetarians are actually more likely to make an effort to eat a balanced diet.
  70. web warlock from Toronto, Canada writes: That's true, Laura, and those studies are known for not controlling for other factors; such as drug and alcohol intake, which could just as easily be responsible for their longer lifespans.

    Don't take it from me:

    Try Paul Appleby, he's Senior Statistician with Cancer Research UK as well as Secretary of Oxford Vegetarians

    http://www.ivu.org/congress/2002/texts/bowler-saturday.html

    As expected, Paul showed that eating meat has been linked to heart disease, and this is the main area in which a vegetarian diet does seem to confer long-term benefits. Overall, vegetarians tend to have lower blood pressure, lower blood cholesterol and are less likely to be overweight than the general population. One study concluded that the number of women who die from breast cancer is significantly higher in the vegetarian population - Paul speculated that this may be due to the fact that vegetarian women are more likely than the general population not to have children, and childbearing has a protective effect against breast cancer. One study, mainly based on the Seventh Day Adventist population in California, found that vegetarians on average live 1.5 to 2 years longer than their counterparts. Paul suggested that the vegetarian population in this study were generally non-smokers, with a relatively high socio-economic status, who exercised regularly and were not generally overweight. However, Paul's wider analysis of all the main studies carried out on vegetarians and non-vegetarians since the 1950s revealed that there is no significant difference in life-span between vegetarians and non-vegetarians.

    Paul Doherty, you sound emotionally unbalanced; violent even. Perhaps you should eat more fish; I hear Omega 3's can help reduce rage amongst the prison population, maybe it would help you with your anger problems.
  71. B to the A to the R to the T from The left coast, Canada writes: ss dd - Yes silly Fad practiced by Buddhists and Hindus for thousands of years. It will go away soom. Sure.
  72. Paul Doherty from Toronto, Canada writes: Beech Nut:

    Vegetarianism is a religion? Gee, who knew? I guess in 35 years the vegetarian Avatar forgot to tap me on the shoulder and welcome me to the club, huh?

    Beech Nut, you named yourself well. Most Canadian nutbars try to tart up their dysfunctions in political/moral agendae. It's nice to meet an outfront deficient who is willing to admit his inferiority and misinformedness for a change.
  73. Malachi Arreak from Pond Inlet, Canada writes: Not at all surprising that none of the vegetarians note that all plants are living things, nor that vegetables or other edible plants are not available in all areas of Canada or the world.
    If u tried to be a vegetarian up in the Arctic, you would starve fast, although in this day and age, you may have to forego any fresh produce since we seem to get only the leftovers from the South.
    I agree with some of the comments about the fact that some of us would eat anything, especially fresh foods and to have the luxury of the vast selections in Southern Canada. All southerners are spoiled, just like brats who throw temper tantrums. Be thankful that you have enough in your larder, whether it be animal or plant remains and that there are over 2 billion people who do not even have enough to eat.
    Sheesh, no wonder Canada is sinking so fast morally, everyone wants to convert all others to their own beliefs, and no one bothers to follow the real morals, the 10 Commandments. It says to respect other people's freedom of choice, which is what vegetarianism is, a choice by individuals.
    Irrespective of what your position is, respect for others seems to have disappeared from our so called modern civilizations. For those of us who do not live south of 60, the healthiest foods are wild game and fish. It seems though, the Arctic latitudes may be conducive to growing really good vegetables, albeit in greenhouses. Just be thankful we have choices in what we eat in Canada and that we can disagree about our opinions about food. Thank God we are not in a repressive country such as Myanmar, where disagreement to the powers that be result in bloodshed. Seems some of the comments would likely lead to that, given their druthers.
  74. Jamie King from Niagara-on-the-Lake, Canada writes: Re: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Jamie, I travel every week, everywhere, and have for 30 years. I can assure you, the western world is fixated on food, obscenely so. the rest just eat to survive. Agreed - the western world is fixated on food. Similarly - many other cultures are - good cooking is something that is recognized and celebrated throughout many cultures and many histories. The fact it - if we simply want to eat - let's all grab a bag of rice and a carrot from a local grocery store. This isn't the issue - the issue is one of the rights and entitlements of those who choose to be patrons of dining establishments. Diners should have rights to full disclosure when dining in any establishment - this is very reasonable. I agree with you that the economies of the western and third world economies relationships with food are not only distressing - they are pretty much criminal. This is another issue altogether though for which I believe we share the same beliefs. When comparing the plight of a family seeking sustenance in Darfur to a wincing 30 something on a plane who is complaining about their last meal - I couldn't agree more - it's a very unflattering illustration of an unacceptable reality. Best - and still, honestly - enjoy the non-org steak - I hope to enjoy one myself soon. Jamie
  75. B to the A to the R to the T from The left coast, Canada writes: Malachi - No one suggested a veggie diet is possible for everyone. It is though for the vast majority. If I was on a island in the middle of the ocean, I'd hunt and fish for food too. But in Vancouver, I do not have to. I can lead a healthy life as a vegan.

    The ten commandments say nothing of Choice. What Bible are you reading??? Who says all the 10 commandments are 'the real morals'. You??? I do not think they are. Do you respect that?
  76. Malachi Arreak from Pond Inlet, Canada writes: B A R..sounds like horse pucky, eh? You have that choice, boy/girl/ transvestite...we don't. I am sure you could lead a healthy life, but does that give you a healthy mind? I respect your position. I guess you only read certain sections, the ones you wish to disprove or use. If you have ever been in the Arctic, you would notice just how small you really are and that indeed, there is a Creator.
    If the Bible is God's word, then those are his morals...BTW...your morals are based on society, in this case, Canada's and the Euro-Canadians used the 10 commandments as the basis for Human Rights. Time will tell if these are the 'REAL' morals or not.
    I have always tried to respect other people's positions, even if they are contrary to my own, just like I respect your opinion for being a non-believer.
  77. ss dd from vancouver, Canada writes: 'Yes silly Fad practiced by Buddhists and Hindus for thousands of years. It will go away soom. Sure'

    You are SO wrong. Buddhists and hindus DO eat meat, there's no ban against it in neither religion. Of course some of them might decide not to, but that's a personal decision (some christians and atheists/agnostics do the same). The above conclusion about natural selection doing its job STANDS, unless you can prove the existence of successful multiple CONSECUTIVE generations of vegans/vegetarians.

    By the way, on the same line of reasoning, I don't know of any vegan eskimo... :-)
  78. Paul Doherty from Toronto, Canada writes: Dear Malachi Arreak from Pond Inlet, Canada:

    Please stopm proselytizing. I'm going to spew my delicious vegetarian lunch if I have to read any more of your sanctimonious drivel.
  79. B to the A to the R to the T from the left coast, Canada writes: Malachi Arreak from Pond Inlet - You do not have to go to the arctic to notice how small we are. Do not confuse my living in a city with a lack of experience, respect, and awe of the natural world.
  80. Cameron Reid from Canada writes: It is Me- you're missing the entire point I was making- it doesnt matter where you derive your belief from, the statement you made was intolerant and ignorant, which is what my substitution game was intended to demonstrate. Why you believe what you believe has no bearing on the facts of the issue, which is that it's no more acceptable to berate people about not being vegetarians than it is to berate someone for being homosexual.

    As for the ethical argument- hogwash. I'm against UNNEEDED cruelty to animals, but at the end of the day its a matter of supreme indiffernce to me how an animal feels about being my dinner. We're on top of the food chain and I don't think we need to apologize for it anymore than a shark does. I don't think that's immoral, or enethical- I think that ethics of that kind only really apply to other humans.
  81. B to the A to the R to the T from the left coast, Canada writes: ss dd - read my other posts. You are right natural selection will take care of things. Obese meat eaters will die off, and will have issues reproducing due to health problems.

    I stand my my assertion that large populations of Vegetarian Buddhists and Hindus as well as western vegetarian societies, like The Farm. Have proven vegetarianism and veganism is safe. You can say otherwise, but it does not make it so.
  82. carol c from Canada writes: 'Vegetarian sources, such as walnuts and flaxseeds contain a precursor omega-3 (alpha-linolenic acid called ALA) that the body must convert to EPA and DHA.'

    Yes, yes I do see that web warlock. I also see the last line which reads, 'Eat more oily fish or take fish oil supplements, walnuts, flax seeds, and omega-3 fortified eggs. Your body and mind will thank you.'

    It seems you have a point however. The omega 3 oil in most plant based sources does contains ALA, not EPA and DHA which are the long chain acids that are used by the brain and in tissue inflammation. The body is able to convert ALA into EPA and DHA, but it is not very efficiently. Interestingly the omega eggs which are from chickens fed with flax seed do contain ALA. From personal experience I notice the same results in tissue inflamation when I eat oily fish and when I eat hemp nuts. I wonder how great the variation in absorption of EPA and DHA is in different individuals? I wonder if vegans learn to absorb these amino-acids more efficiently. That would seem to make sense.
  83. Bake McBride from vancouver, Canada writes: We would not be where we are today with our technological advances (& all its pros & cons, but obviously more good than bad) if early man hadn't started making tools to hunt animals.

    I tried vegetarianism for about a yr during the mid-90s. All I could think of was steak & I decided to end it with a 16 oz rib steak grilled to perfection at Hy's Encore.
  84. Chris Bobbitt from United States writes: Wasn't the original article about mixed couples? My wife and I have been vegan for many years, and LOV before then. Neither of us was interested in dating non-vegans. We both see meat-eating as not only morally reprehensible, but, more to the point, just plain GROSS. Leather, too. I would certainly not fault a Mormon for not wanting to date habitual drunkards, even if they only drink at a bar and come home stinking of whiskey. Neither would we date a smoker. We've been very happily married for over 10 years now. Our eight year old is tall for his age, in excellent health, and academically at the top of his class. He has been vegan since way before conception. He loves tofu!We've taught him not to criticise his classmates over their food, but he knows what meat is and thinks it's both sad and disgusting that some people still eat it. Btw, some kinds of soymilk and flax oil are fortified with extra DHA Omega 3 from algae (same as where fish get it). We feel that there's just no excuse for wrecking the environment and wrecking our collective health and imho our collective karma by consuming animal products. We're not sanctimonious about our diet, but we are very relieved that we share the same attitudes on most things. What one puts into one's body is fundamental.
  85. ss dd from vancouver, Canada writes: "I stand my my assertion..."

    You can stand anyway you like it, I couldn't care less, as long as you stop preaching me your vegan nonsense. I'm not interested, and do not intend to become a convert anytime soon.
    Since we both agree that natural selection DOES solve problems (including the food related ones) why don't we leave it at that ?
    Eat your leaves in peace, and have a long happy life. Myself, I feel like having a steak tonight... :-)
  86. web warlock from Toronto, Canada writes: Hi Carol,

    I believe the variation in conversion rates can be quite high, there's evidence that females can convert ALA to EPA and DHA much more efficiently than males. Also there are suggestions of genetic variations eg. North American natives, Inuit, Norwegians, Welsh-Irish and others may have more problems with the conversion process. There's also mounting evidence that a high intake of ALA eg. vegans and the Western diet, interferes with the conversion process. Some of this evidence suggests that children are particularly at risk as the body uses ALA instead of EPA/DHA to build the brain.

    There appears to be a wide variety of opinion on this topic, but I can't seem to find very many studies with a significant number of subjects. Most people agree that the increase of ALA in the diet to the detriment