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Liberals inconsistent on Ontario schools, Tory says

MURRAY CAMPBELL AND PAUL WALDIE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:30 PM EDT 30/09/07

Tory squares off against Wynne in hotly contested riding; elsewhere on campaign trail, McGuinty suggests a 'time out' on foreign takeovers of Canadian companies ...Read the full article

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  1. Not the Alliance from In my opinion the Harper Gov't is Incompetent, but will shower some of our money on us to compensate, Canada writes: Why is it the 'right' thing to do John? The 'right' thing to do would be to take away Catholic school funding. Instead of introducing a whole new way to introduce 'unfairness', take away the one funding that makes it unfair. If not, then don't make the problem worse.

    Tory's going to stubbornly march off the cliff, deaf to all the feedback that been presented because he only sees one 'right' thing to do. Is this the type of leadership that matters?
  2. N B from Canada writes: Everyone pray to the golden cow, it's the only true religion. Holy -Cow -Holy- Cow- Holy- cow.
  3. E Campbell from Chicago, United States writes: Something has to be done with the faith based schools - either fund them all, or fund none of them. Living in Ontario until 2 years ago, I am still astounded that no one has figured this out. It's against the Canadian charter of rights and freedom's and its against common sense. I'm not catholic, but also, have no problem with Catholic schools. I do have a problem giving public tax money to just the Catholic schools, and no other religious institutions.

    It's now the year 2007 - let's act like it. Clearly, our constitution has major flaws. I'm a little unclear of why the Jewish, Muslim or other religious school boards haven't sued over this. They should!

    Let's have some sort of equality in the year 2007 - either all religious schools get funding - or none do. I don't see any other reasonable argument over this issue.
  4. J S from Canada writes: Well said.
  5. Not the Alliance from In my opinion the Harper Gov't is Incompetent, but will shower some of our money on us to compensate, Canada writes: Gov't and religion don't mix. How do you fund them all? Who decides which 'religion' is worth funding?

    Tory's solution to the unfairness will make the problem worse and will introduce a funding black hole that will suck funds out of the public system.

    Keep Gov't out of religion and vica versa.
  6. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: Liberal Education Minister Kathleen Wynne can only defend Ontario's education system in the most general of terms. By any goal, including the Liberals, our students fall short on EQAO tests as well as international tests. Yet with amazing stubborness the province continues to employ pedagogies that other countries such as Britain abandoned a long time ago. And frustrated parents are powerless to do much about it.

    And to add a new twist to a system which is costly and lacking in results, we are hearing of more incidents of overt violent behavior. Are these reports the tip of the iceberg?

    Our schools have lost intended purpose, transparency, alignment and accountability. But this is all well and good for the Working Families organization which is a collection of unionists such as OSSTF.

    But it really doesn't matter to the general good. Ontario thus far has been rich beyond it's wildest dreams and has provided the electorate with all the goodies it could possibly consume. And Dalton just announced that what we don't make at home, we'll purchase someplace else:

    Dalton just announced A re-elected Liberal government would increase spending by $50 million a year to help attract and welcome immigrants to Ontario, McGuinty said.

    Of course our non breeding population is in no position to make our own people-we gave up on this idea a long time ago.
  7. Kelly Smith from Victoria, Canada writes: I thought someone did sue and lost. The court saying something like because it's been this way with Ontario funding the Catholic Church for around 150 years, history won out.
  8. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: No thanks Tory.

    No to both teaching creationism in science class and divert half-a-billion much needed dollars from the public school system.

    As well, Ontarioans don't support this proposal because it's ridiculous, not because we simply haven't 'seen the light' yet as you so arrogantly believe.

    I'll vote liberal this time around, at least they won't be making a bad situation worse. In time, when MMP is in place, we'll deal with the catholic schools.
  9. Shawn W from Toronto, Canada writes: There really aren't words to describe how utterly stupid John Tory must be. He's running against a Premier who broke more promises than we can count, yet his policies are so universally unappealing to the general public that he really doesn't stand a chance. I think the National Post, several weeks ago, summed it up best by saying that John Tory is a victim of the 'rubber chicken dinner'. Meaning, he spent waaaayyyyy too much time at fundraisers put on by insane religious wingnuts who kept whispering in his ear that Ontario needs more faith-based education. When, in reality, to the average Ontarian, nothing could sound more absurd. Sorry John, but I think Dalton is pretty much a sure thing at this point.
  10. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Not the Alliance from In my opinion the Harper Gov't is Incompetent, but will shower some of our money on us to compensate, Canada writes: 'Tory's going to stubbornly march off the cliff, deaf to all the feedback that been presented because he only sees one 'right' thing to do. Is this the type of leadership that matters?'

    You're a bit too kind there... Your question should be 'Is this leadership at all?'

    Someone who stubbornly sticks to his decision regardless of how pathetic it is does not make one a 'leader' - it simply means they are stubborn as hell and would make horrible leaders.... Harper and Bush prove that on a daily basis. Only conservatives think that doing what you say you are going to do regardless of how stupid it is, is worthy of worship. Hence the fact that conservativism is often referred to as a cult. So far as their reasoning goes, if a killer tells you he is going to kill you, then does it, that makes them a leader.
  11. - Barry - from toronto, Canada writes: If only there were a party whose platform proposes the elimination of the dual school system.

    Oh wait. There is one. And they were at this debate. Too bad this article didn't mention that.
  12. Yogie Bear from The Forest, Canada writes:
    Hi all

    I say if you don't like the public system you are free to send your child to a private school at your own expense. Allow Canadians to keep more of their hard earned tax dollars and if they wish to have their kids in a separate school, rather than the public system, you pay for it.

    Multiculturalism is too costly when it is implemented by the govt in power.

    Thank You
  13. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Watch this folks, I'll predict the future;

    Soon there will be a posting on this blog, someone whose name runs along the lines of 'whoretence'

    They'll be talk about lieberals, caledonia, and catholic bigotry... and, they'll all be UPPERCASE WORDS to strike fear amongst us. Then the rant will be directed towards child molestation...

    Sad but true. I never thought I could tell future, until I realize how predictable the past was.
  14. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: I think a fair arrangement would be for parents to get a refund on their share of taxes, which the government would use for public education. This savings in taxes could be used to supplement the parents cost of sending their child to a school of their choice. In addition to this, the manufacturing sector-what's left of it-should be able to designate what share of their taxes should go to the school of their choice.

    This would be fair but that's not what Ontarians want, which may explain why Ontario is very mush a province of mediocrity.
  15. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Dave do I read you that Catholic school funding is ok, but other religious schools should not be funded? Then you say that MMP will allow us to get rid of Catholic schools. How? MMP will fragment Queens Park into a mess of special interest groups and 39 MMPs not accountable to any constituents and selected by party hacks.
  16. Sober Second Thought from Toronto, Canada writes: I want to thank John Tory for bringing the faith based education issue to the front page. Now that Tory has put this out in the open, how is he, or Dalton going to put the religous school Genie back in the bottle on this? We need a referendum on the Catholic system now. Maybe its time for the Greens afterall.
  17. N B from Canada writes: What a wonderful idea, separate children by religion and better yet have the government encourage it. Religion is a business that has caused division and suffering all over the world, we in Ontario need this like a toothache!!
  18. Henry Allen from Toronto, Canada writes: Separation of church and state means no religion in publicly funded schools. Rescind the public funding of Catholic schools.
  19. Michael Canzi from Canada writes: If my public tax dollars are going to fund the schools of other religions, I should be able to work there if I'm a qualified teacher. But this won't happen. Catholic schools will not let non-Catholics teach there unless they get special permission, swim through red tape, relinquish their first born to the convent/seminary and promise to never say a disparaging word about Catholicism. Nor creationism. Nor pre-marital sex. Nor safe sex and protection from STDs. Nor......... And that's just Catholic schools.

    Catholics and members of other religions can freely teach in the public system no questions asked. But non-members of their 'special clubs' need not apply. And I should help pay to expand and perpetuate this why, John Tory?

    One public system. And maybe have students all take a Comparative Religions course in Grade 11 or 12 so that they can learn all of the similarities between most popular religions and develop the ability to see through some of the bs about 'other' religions imposed upon them by their own church and parents.
  20. Soccer Mom from Canada writes: Where is all this fear mongering coming from. These children are already in these faith based schools so if there is going to be any problems integrating after they finish school we would have seen it already. Of the 53000 students currently being taught in the faith based schools 37000 are in Christian faith based schools. Are these parents not allowed the same funding as there Catholic counterparts? Do the Catholics have a problem getting along with public school children? Wouldn’t you rather have the ability for the Public Board paying surprise visits to these schools to see what is being taught? This can only be done if they fall under the Public Board.
  21. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: NB, is Ontario different than B.C, Alberta, Manitoba? There has been no problem in these provinces. In fact Alberta has charter schools which are non faith based and have been operating successfully for a few years. These schools give parents a choice between public schools which are generally less disciplined and schools which demand a stricter code of conduct.
  22. N B from Canada writes: I agree with you

    Michael Canzi:
    One public system. And maybe have students all take a Comparative Religions course in Grade 11 or 12 so that they can learn all of the similarities between most popular religions and develop the ability to see through some of the bs about 'other' religions imposed upon them by their own church and parents.
  23. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: Sober Second Thoguht makes an excellent point. And already an incredible degree of damage has been done. The Liberals will be challenged on fairness and because they have committed to funding the status quo, they will have to defend themselves from charges of bigoty the very same charge they made of the Tories when they refused to provide full funding for Catholic school children.

    The Liberals may decide to procrastinate until the next election and at that point campaign to remove full funding from Catholic schools. There's little doubt that this will go to the supreme court but there will be a twist-demographically there will be a far greater number of faith based citizens in Ontario and far fewer secularists. We will also note the closure of numerous public schools as well as the opening of numerous faith based schools. This trend in demographics cannot be ignored-Ontario's secular community is dangerously close to entering the demographic death spiral from which no society ever recovers.
  24. B I from Toronto, Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: These schools give parents a choice between public schools which are generally less disciplined and schools which demand a stricter code of conduct.

    Nonsene! Charter schools have failed miserably in most American states and it is failing in the most 'Amercian' Canadian province of Alberta as well. This 'charter school' rhetoric about it being more 'disciplined' is total crap from the same people who tell us private health care is good for us - the National Citizens Coalition jerks who hate Canadian way of life. These people hate universal health care, hate universal education and want to be American so badly that they have to trash everything that is good about our country.
  25. snaglepussed in Ottawa from Canada writes: Not only Catholics received provincial funding for schools. The Penetanguashine Protestant School Board received 2 million dollars from the McGuinty government in 2006. Money that McGuinty ripped out of the public education system to fund Protestant schools, even though such schools, as he says, segregates and divides our children. What a hypocrite! If re-elected, he will get his due for tricking the voters on this issue.
  26. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: B I from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Nonsene! Charter schools have failed miserably in most American states

    ---------------------------------
    Facts please.
  27. Michiel Horn from Canada writes: Most Ontarians have never wanted to fund separate schools. They were imposed on the province back in the 1850s and 1860s, when Ontario (Canada West) and Quebec (Canada East) were united, with a majority of legislators in Quebec supported by a minority in Ontario overruling the clear wishes of the majority of legislattors and voters in this province. The arrangement, which covered only the common schools (up to grade 8) was then enshrined in the British North America Act, and Ontario has been stuck with it ever since.

    The decision by the government led by William Davis to extend public funding of separate schools to grade 13 was both unnecessary and bad public policy. It was also unpopular and contributed to the PC defeat in 1985. The current PC proposal is bad public policy as well as bad politics. It will very likely cost the PCs an election the party would otherwise have won. It may also cost Mr. Tory a victory in Don Valley West.

    The courageous and appropriate thing to do would be to withdraw public funding from separate schools. That is probably impossible from a constitutional point of view. But let us at least not compound the mistake imposed on us more than a hundred years ago. Two wrongs don't make a right.
  28. Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes: Dave Jansen,
    It's too bad that you can't reason ,as you have such partianship views.
    It seems ANY Tory plan,is outright 'wrong' by you[and Vern McPherson].
    There is only a very small porrtion of the population that would like their schools funded.
    They DO pay into the educational system.
    6 other Provinces have already provided this,with no outlash,or scare-mongering claims,that the McGuinty Govt. has seemingly convinced Ontarians to buy into.
    For all of the people that make claims of justice,fairness,and tolerence,where are you now?
    McGuinty wants everyone to believe that it is such a huge cost to taxpayers.
    But yet,other provinces have done this,without even media focus.
    If Catholic schools are to be funded publicly,then why not the few other students,that are left out? They pay for school taxes.
    I hope this issue eventually backfires on the Lying McGuinty.
    Such a liar in politics should not be rewarded with another term,no matter what Party they're from.
  29. Osman Aboul-Nasr, Proud Canadian from Simpsonville, SC, United States writes: 'Faith based' initiatives are an indirect way of supporting religion. They free the resources 'faith based' institutions would have otherwise used in spreading their 'faith.' The government has the critical mass to provide these services directly.
  30. billy bob from Timmins, Canada writes: All or most of these so called religions are based on guys talking to angels.Maybe there should be a debate about the plausability of that!
  31. Anthony B from Sydney, NS, Canada writes: 'Faith' is a private and personal thing. The government has no business funding personal convictions and the segregation of children based upon parental beliefs.
  32. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: BI what is your proof that it is failing in Alberta or even the U.S.? You sound like the kind of person that wants the government to take care of you from cradle to grave. No room for initiative and free thinking.

  33. N B from Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud

    What is the problem with public schools where children of all faiths can learn that we are all the same and share the same wants and needs.
  34. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: Nancy,

    The problem lies within the Ontarian mentality. We subscribe to a theory called Stateism. This means that the state assumes many of our adult responsibilities, such as the cost of education, medicare, and other entitlements. In a sense our adult population is very juvenile, spending it's income on toys rather than necessities. This makes them less responsible especially when compared with adults from the 40's, 50's or 60's.

    I think the prospect of introducing competition in schools would be more than the poor Ontarian can handle. If this was to occur, they'd be stressed wondering if their kid-likely singular- was placed in the best school. It makes for better play if they don't have to worry about this sort of thing.
  35. Peter Sibold from Canada writes: One Ontario...come on....we lost that with the first round of funding of separate schools. Having opened the 'gates to hell'.....I just cann't see how we can legally or morally not allow funding for other religious based schools in Ontario. How can anyone say we have 'one ontario' when Catholics and non-catholics no longer intergrate in school? Sad, sad, sad....personally I would never had met my best friend if we both had attended school today....we woudl never had attended the same school in today's system! What every.....either everyone gets the funding or no one! It is pure discrimination otherwise.....and .....Canada is a multi-culture...mulit-fath society! The two founding nations concept is outdated....so are two school systems in Ontario...Tory is right....and I'm not even a PC!
    Regardless...cann't wait until we have a 'visible minority' running Ontario....we will then deal a 'fair deck' to all!
  36. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: N B from Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud

    What is the problem with public schools where children of all faiths can learn that we are all the same and share the same wants and needs.

    ----------------------------------

    So lets attend the public school on odd days and the school of one's choice on even days.
  37. B I from Toronto, Canada writes: 9% of U.S. charter schools had closed in a decade according to an American survey in 2004 from the Center for Education Reform. They become private schools on their own with little or no government accountability. They eventually morph into something very different from accredited curriculum while taking money from the public purse. That's why they fail and that's a kind of failure that John Tory and his Conservative meatheads want to bring to Ontario.
  38. fuzzy bare from Ontario, Canada writes: I believe John Tory made the right choice in proposing to fund faith based schools that teach the provincial curriculum. The alternative choices are the status quo, where only children of Catholic faith and public schools receive provincial funding or withdrawing funding for the Catholic school system. It isn't fair to fund Catholic schools and not those of other faiths.

    Those against funding other faith based schools and continuing to fund Catholic schools are favouring one group of children over another. The intolerance of those who support this option is not pretty. It appears the majority of people in Ontario are far less tolerant than the people from the western provinces who fund schools of other faiths, including Catholic. I am not anti-Catholic and believe their school system is equal to or in some cases superior to the publice school system but I believe in equal treatment and the same opportunity for all children, regardless of faith.
  39. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: 'Dave do I read you that Catholic school funding is ok, but other religious schools should not be funded?'

    Clearly you have read what you wanted to read. No point debating with you.
  40. Justin Campbell from Ottawa, Canada writes: Kelly Smith from Victoria, Canada writes: 'I thought someone did sue and lost. The court saying something like because it's been this way with Ontario funding the Catholic Church for around 150 years, history won out.'

    Sorry, Kelly, but you're wrong. Whether there was in fact a suit, I'm not sure; however, the reason the status quo remains the status quo is because of a little thing we have called the Constitution. In that crazy document of ours, it says (in essence) that Catholic schools are entitled to public funding.

    So in other words -- and despite my own opposition to the priveleged status of Catholics -- it's the Constitution that wins, not 'history'. So save your criticisms of the Courts and instead (maybe) heap them on the fathers of Confederation.
  41. Cyrus Ofpersia from Canada writes: B I, I don't quite understand your 9% stat. Are you saying 91% of the private schools were fine, and 9% were closed?
  42. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: NB, no problem if public schools were disciplined and provided protection and tolerance for students of different faiths. Many students are set upon by bullies who do not respect the different religions. Many students feel more comfortable and secure in a school setting where they have common beliefs.

    pass wind - this was a pretty decent discussion before you introduced petty name calling.
  43. Vern McPherson from writes: Outside of education, since when do citizens decide what programs their tax money goes to ? What kind of nonsense is that ? What kind of liberterian bull$hi! is that ? You can't decide to fund one road an not the next. Or one transit system but not the other ! Or this health care and not the other.

    For our new American friend here our Canadian constitution provides for separate school funding and that is all there is to it. It's not a question of fairness today or not. If citizens don't want thet they can mount a referendum and have it changed in accordance with the stated methods for ammending the constitution. But to decimate the public school system with faith based schools publically funded is nonsense and will never work. There are too many religions in Ontari oespecially in the urban areas. This is not Alberta or even empty BC. We have 300,000 kids of various faiths in TORONTO ALONE !! We start funding every faith school that comes along pretty soon there won't be any public school system.
  44. B I from Toronto, Canada writes: Cyrus Ofpersia from Canada writes: B I, I don't quite understand your 9% stat. Are you saying 91% of the private schools were fine, and 9% were closed?

    Nope. That was a 2004 stat. Since then many states have shown that public school kids perform better in standardized testing than charter school kids because they stray from accredited curriculum. The charter school idea is a Republican invention in the U.S. so they can teach kids silly ideas like God created the world in 7 days or whatever nonsense it is you dinosaur-ish goons in the religious world like to fancy.

    The 9% was a worrying trend three years ago and the 2009 survey will show that charter school have gotten worse since then.
  45. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Yes BI, 9% closing a decade does not sound bad, less than 1 in 10.

    Dave, sorry you have trouble with my questions, but you did not respond to how MMP will get rid of Catholic schools.
  46. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: According S.Q.E. statistics as well as research by the Fraser Institute, education improves when money follows the child. B.C., Alberta, and Quebec have the best educational results in Canada while the Maritime provinces the worst, with Ontario close to the bottom. The Maritime have zero choice which is what the Ontario public seems to want for Ontario but we don't want the excellent results which come with enhanced competition which occurs in B.C., Alberta, and Quebec.

    It's clear that Unions are driving the no choice, no accountability, no transparency, no alignment, no malpractice mentality which weighs like a giant anchor around the necks of our students.
  47. M W from Berkeley, Canada writes: Imagine the savings if someone had the courage to eliminate catholic school funding. There will be thousands of Catholic parents who can stand the thought of their children mixing with the masses, and will elect for private schooling. No to mention duplication and busing.
  48. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: Imagine the savings if someone had the courage to eliminate catholic school funding

    -----------------------------.

    Think of the cost in not developing the child's mind to the point of parity with the children of B.C. Alberta and Quebec, not to mention New Zealand, Norway, or Australia.
  49. N B from Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud
    Protection and tolerance is in short supply in all schools everywhere in the world. If children must be separated to protect their differences what happens later in life ,will we never be able to live together. Years ago a friend of mine that was brought up in Canada and when to school with me for years went back to Ireland to visit relatives. When he returned he told me of the religious caused bombings and mistrust of people of the other religion. After knowing my friend for fifteen years I had to ask what religion his family was.

    Yes to public schools
  50. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: 'Dave, sorry you have trouble with my questions, but you did not respond to how MMP will get rid of Catholic schools.' My apologies - didn't think you were serious. Here goes; I'm voting Liberal, not because I support funding of Catholic schools, but because with the first-past-the-post system, if I vote for the green party who want to convert the catholic schools to regular public schools, I might as well be voting for the conservatives since they could weasel their way by and get elected in my riding. The whole religious-school funding issue isn't high on my list, but I sure as hell won't be voting for a party that will make the situation worse. With MMP - I could vote for my current MPP, and vote for the green party. With enough support or holding the balance of power, we could finally have one public school system. Hence why I believe with MMP we will eventually rid ourselves of all publically funded religious endeavors. Ironically real conservatives should also want one public school system as well instead of readily funding two seperate administrations. So much for 'fiscal' conservativism. As well, your fears on MMP appear rather unfounded. If you don't like the way a certain party will select it's members to form the list - *don't vote for them*. The MMPs will be as accountable as anyone else, since they are voted into office. Again - if the conservatives will present a list of MPPs that is hidden in secrecy, don't vote for them - it's as simple as that. As for this whole 'special interest group' - you will require at least 3% of the vote to equal one MPP - 3% isn't just chump change. It represents the wishes of real people. Another way to look at it is that the conservatives with 33% of the vote simply represent 11 Special Interest Groups - pretty ridiculous, no? With MMP - 10% of the vote will equal 10% of the seats. Currently you can get 75% of the seats with 43% of the vote - hardly democratic.
  51. Jo Blo from Canada writes: Michael Canzi from Canada writes: 'If my public tax dollars are going to fund the schools of other religions, I should be able to work there if I'm a qualified teacher. '

    You aren't the only person who pays taxes in Ontario. Persons who send their kids to private schools also pay school taxes, but they have nothing to show for it. Part of the school taxes paid by parents who send their children to religious/ethnic schools should be redirected to those schools.***

    In exchange, those schools should teach the Ontario curriculum, submit their students to provincial testing, and submit to inspections by education ministry officials. That's not a radical new system; that's the way it works in 5 other provinces.
  52. jake and pete from Canada writes: We in our family have the means to send our kids to private school but have choose not to. My brothers have sent their kids to Private school, and what a difference I can see! The local school my kids are involved with are community embraced, help out your sisters and brothers. The private school agenda seems to prosper the ELITE.
  53. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: NB, when you use Ireland as an example, sorry it does not apply. The Irish had been killing one another for well over a 100 years and have just recently started living peacefully together. Try examples of tolerance such as Holland and the Scandinavian countries.
    As for later in life if one learns tolerance and respect for others with a touch of awareness of the dark side at an early age then one is prepared for most situations.

  54. Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes: Maybe instead of talking about "faith based education",we should be talking about school curriculum,and teaching methods.
    Let's get back to the basics,I before E,except after C.
    For years,I felt that the schools not only expected me to be a parent,but also a teacher,for hours each night.
    The fundamentals of teaching ,seem to be long gone,unfortunetely.
    This nonsense of "phonics" and all the "new " teaching methods,have left many kids disadvantaged,and unable to comprehend or spell.
    Many of us remember the basics of education,before the convoluted methods arrived.
    Let's get back to the fundamental basics of learning,instead of this over-studied,over-funded method of teaching!
    Many kids finishing high school in this Province,can barely read.
  55. MARLON LEVIN from Toronto, Canada writes: To the man who questioned what is being taught in Jewish Schools...more tolerance for other religions and for the world at large than the anti-semetic cr--p being taught in the muslim schools and mosques in Canada, USA and that mess called England and France and of course, in the Arab towns and cities in Judea and Sumeria!

    I look so very forward to your reader's comments!
  56. N B from Canada writes: EJ Ravensbud

    Holland and the Scandinavian --- You must be joking!
  57. fuzzy bare from Ontario, Canada writes: Dave Jansen... it wasn't necessary for you to state that you were a Liberal. It is very obvious as you have all those great qualities; Arrogance, Intolerance and not adverse to fiddlng with the facts to support your comments.
  58. Michael Canzi from Canada writes: Jo Blo,

    Why should I give money for you to teach religious beliefs I do not believe in outside of your place of worhsip? Schools should be for education. Leave it to your church/mosque/synagogue/etc. to do the indoctrinal dirty work.

    Ontario is much more diverse and larger than any other province. Comparing our situation to white bread Alberta is apples to oranges, man. The GTA alone has almost as many people as all of Alberta and over 50% of the people here are non-white and bring a wider range of cultures and religions. The situations and solutions are more complex. Sorry, but it's true.

    And does bringing in Quebec really help your argument for inclusion? How's tolerance for the English language and English language schools doing there? Exactly.
  59. Mike McFee from Ottawa, Canada writes: Good luck with the faith-based education system.... You have just lost the election.........
  60. M B from Canada writes: Nancy Wilson--Here it comes, the teacher-bashing. It is parents like you that helped me make my decision to retire after 33 years of teaching.

    Of course parents are expected to be teachers. Duh? That is part of your job. No school system can do it all. Support from parents is essential, and those kids who are lucky enough to have parents who realize that and who actually get involved in their kids education are the lucky ones. Unfortunately, many aren't so lucky.
  61. Clark The Mighty Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: John Tory has been Swift-boated.

    Tory = John Kerry.

    Mcquinty = W. Bush
  62. Wulfher SkullSplitter from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Religion is a form of social control for the ignorant masses, nothing more. We need better tools in this day and age.
  63. Jo Blo from Canada writes: MARLON LEVIN from Toronto, Canada writes: "To the man who questioned what is being taught in Jewish Schools...more tolerance for other religions and for the world at large than the anti-semetic cr--p being taught in the muslim schools and mosques in Canada, USA and that mess called England and France and of course, in the Arab towns and cities in Judea and Sumeria!"********

    So what do you propose: funding only jewish schools? What's your point?******

    What about Yeshivas that only teach the Torah, to the exclusion of everything else? Funding faith based schools (that already exist, by the way), would force them to teach the Ontario curriculum, and be open to inspection by ministry of education officials. A few months back, the Quebec Education ministry cracked down on a Yeshiva that was not teaching the provincial curriculum at all!******

    Oh, and it's Samaria, not Sumeria....
  64. Clark The Mighty Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: The "better tool" is ideological public schools?

    Wrong!

    Public schools in the province of Ontario are not "neutral"...they preach their own religion, as ordered to by the faceless bureaucrats of the Ontario College of Teachers!
  65. N B from Canada writes: Wulfher SkullSplitter from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Religion is a form of social control for the ignorant masses, nothing more. We need better tools in this day and age.

    Everyone pray to the golden cow, it's the only true religion. Holy -Cow -Holy- Cow- Holy- cow.
  66. Pedropolus Woodhalipus from Toronto, Canada writes: Let's get back to the basics,I before E,except after C.

    Liberals laugh at such a suggestion even when new research claims that traditional subjects such as penmanship and memory work systematically build a more powerful brain, enhance reading skills, and develop the frontal cortex.

    Liberals are quite happy to have the provinces children rely on calculators, cheat sheets and power point presentations-a sign of a weak frontal cortex. This is all well and good, but please give us choice.
  67. M B from Canada writes: Wulfher SkullSplitter from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Religion is a form of social control for the ignorant masses, nothing more. We need better tools in this day and age.

    You are absolutely, 100% correct, sir. Unfortunately, brainwashing is hard to undo.
  68. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Dave, I dont necessarily approve of separate schools but I believe if people are not satisfied with the public system they should have a choice, especially if they feel it is for the protection of their children. If people want a faith based or charter school that is their business as long as the school follows a national or provincial curriculum.
    McGuinty is two faced in his dismissal of Tory's view as the Liberals accused the Torys of bigotry by refusing to fund faith based education in the past. The debate between Tory and Wynne brought this to light.
    As far as the MMP system is concerned I cannot understand what 39 MPPs are responsible for if they have not been elected by the constituents. They are like our undemocratic unelected senate. I prefer the first past the post as who comes in first wins. It is the same as a race, only one person wins. In this case if you did not vote for the winner - you lose.
    If you want more fairness use the French example - if no one achieves 50% plus one of the vote a runoff is held a week later with the top two choices. The additional cost is minimal as the election machinery is already in place.
  69. Michael Canzi from Canada writes: Pedro,

    Do you mean liberals or the Liberal party?

    The current curriculum in Ontario schools was introduced by the Conservatives, not the Liberals. Remember getting rid of Grade 13 to save money went hand in hand with the new curriculum's introduction, too. Two great decisions - not.
  70. M B from Canada writes: Those who say that funding faith-based schools would open them up to ministerial inspection are missing a point here. There is NOTHING to stop the Govt. from requiring that ALL schools must follow the provincial curriculum and that ALL schools must be open to inspection. The funding issue is separate.
  71. Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes: M B.
    Thank Goodness you left the teaching profession.
    As a parent, I expect to spend some time in teaching to my children.
    But when schooling provides such little education,that parents are expected to provide the basic ABC's of education,then what do I need you for?
    I'm sure many parents feel as I do.
    The very basics of education have been left for the parents to teach.
    For many,after working long days,and looking after the needs of the family,is it so much to expect,that the fundamentals of learning,be taught at school?
  72. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Man, a lot of you must of had religion driven into your skulls by your mothers and grandmothers when you were kids for to have such a hate for religion. I always was sceptical but accepted a lot of the golden rule stuff. It did me no harm. I made my own choices on what I believed and what I didn't. Chill out people, hate and intolerance does not become you, especially ones who had taught school for 33 years.
  73. Pandora Spocks from Kingston, Canada writes: Good God, this thread is full of stupid. Ontario is mediocre? Ontario is doing just fine, thanks. Creating jobs, leading North America in vehicle production, solid high-tech and banking sectors. Why do you hate Ontario? Get rid of Catholic schools? Brilliant. What do you propose to do with the 600,000 students who attend them? What about the inevitable constitutional challenge? McGuinty is Swift-Boating Tory? That was a self-inflicted swift-boating. Unless McGuinty managed to sneak faith based schools into the Tory platform while it was being printed at Kinkos. Private schools that teach a religious curriculum are inspected twice a year by the government if they offer provincial diplomas. They are already "part of the system" in that sense. As for the "one religion is funded and another isn't" argument - there are historical reasons for this. Read a book. Unanswered questions for Tory: Do non-religious teachers get to teach at a religious school? Do all students get to attend regardless of faith? If not, why not? If my tax dollars are funding your mardrassa, shouldn't I be able to send my kid there? Or do religious schools get to accept public money and still be exclusive? How is that fair, exactly? And would they even acccept the funding if it came with such strings? And "Bill Davis will solve this" isn't an answer, John. Suffice to say the whole thing is a great deal more complicated than this Globe discussion suggests. And it is VERY clear that John Tory (and the Green Party) didn't do their homework before they blundered into this clusterfrick of an issue. This is one time where the status quo suits me just fine.
  74. fuzzy bare from Ontario, Canada writes: If you like our system of appointing political hacks to our Senate, you will love the MPP system. The voters of Ontario will elect 90 MPs who will be responsible to the riding electorate. The political parties will appoint 37 MPPs who will be responsible to the political party or party leader who appointed them. Something like giving the party leader 38 votes in the Legislature. The elected MPs will have larger ridings and more people to represent making the elected MPs less accessible to the people they represent. The appointed MPPs have no riding to represent and no input from their electorate. They cannot be removed from office by the voters, only the party leaders can drop their names from the list of MPPs, almost like tenure with the job security of the Senate. A Legislature with 30% of the Members appointed by political party leaders and the remainder elected. Similiar to blending the Senate and Parliament into one Legislature. Is there a more undemocratic electoral system than MPP? Other than a Communist government.
  75. M B from Canada writes: Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes: M B.
    Thank Goodness you left the teaching profession.

    How rude! Thankfully I had many rewarding years with my students. I enjoyed everyone of them.

    What do you need us for? Well, dear, try going it on your own.
  76. Pandora Spocks from Kingston, Canada writes: "There is NOTHING to stop the Govt. from requiring that ALL schools must follow the provincial curriculum and that ALL schools must be open to inspection."

    They already are. Twice a year if they want to issue a provincial diploma.

    Confusion about this is generated by Tory, who for some reason would have you believe religious schools are unregulated.
  77. Clark The Mighty Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Mcquinty is swift-boating Tory.

    He's going after one aspect of the platform, distorting it, smearing...and refusing to answer questions about his own policy and personal history (Catholic schools supplied the money for that family for a long time, as Ms. Mcquinty brought home the bacon while Dalton floundered!)

    Liberals in Ontario will do anything to hold on to power.

    But if Mcquinty loses, at least his wife can go back to teaching at a publicly funded CATHOLIC SCHOOL!
  78. Jo Blo from Canada writes: Michael Canzi from Canada writes: "Jo Blo, Why should I give money for you to teach religious beliefs I do not believe in outside of your place of worhsip? Schools should be for education. Leave it to your church/mosque/synagogue/etc. to do the indoctrinal dirty work."********** First, I dont teach. I'm actually an agnostic. I found religion class quite irritating. The issue, however, is one of fairness. The money, that the parents have already paid towards school taxes, should be redirected to the religion based school where they send their kids to, to teach them the Ontario curriculum, suing certified teachers. Any extra hours for teaching religion would not be covered, as it is not in other provinces. I can't see why a non-catholic/jewish/muslim/armenian teacher couldn't teach in such schools, non religious subjects, and I don't think that this issue is settled in Ontario, **** "Ontario is much more diverse and larger than any other province. Comparing our situation to white bread Alberta is apples to oranges, man. The GTA alone has almost as many people as all of Alberta and over 50% of the people here are non-white and bring a wider range of cultures and religions. The situations and solutions are more complex. Sorry, but it's true."******** That doesn't mean that the system should build them schools. They establish (and pay up-front) for the building, and then the province funds the school per capita, as is done in the public system. Nothing revolutionary here. Tory is not proposing to BUILD schools.******** "And does bringing in Quebec really help your argument for inclusion? How's tolerance for the English language and English language schools doing there? Exactly. " Quebec got rid of separate schools (i.e. no catholic/protestant), in favour or french/english school boards, but funds religious/ethnic schools to 50%. What's your point about tolerance, and how does this relate to this topic?
  79. Annie Turner from by the flowing avon, Canada writes: No matter what Tory says it will be a mess..Constitutional mess..good luck on that one.
  80. Vern McPherson from writes: Nancy Wilson from Timmins, Canada writes

    ---------------------------

    SO it's the teacher's unions you hate ?

    Lady of your kids are finishing high school and can't read it's your fault not some teacher. How much did you spend on video games for them ? Or reading material in your home ? How much attention were you paying when they weren't reading through the years ? They certainly didn't just suddenly lose reading skills i ngrade 12.

    -----------------------------------

    To the other goof who mentions "penmmanship" LO L!!

    Horse riding develops arse muscels too ! penmanship WOW !!!
  81. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Pandora why would you want to send your child to a school that does not follow your beliefs or personal values? Why would teachers want to teach in a school where they did not believe in the basic religious values that the school was founded on? Your examples do not carry much weight.
  82. Clark The Mighty Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: M.B. you were a teacher during an era of government expansion, lax standards, and huge government debt.

    You likely couldn't get hired today. You received a salary higher than you deserved. You weren't tested to make sure you knew how to teach. You got paid for holidaying in the summers. Good for you!

    Don't brag about it.

    Because now you're OLD.

    You're lucky the public health care system will use our tax dollars to, again, keep you going for a while.
  83. Not the Alliance from In my opinion the Harper Gov't is Incompetent, but will shower some of our money on us to compensate, Canada writes: Clark The Mighty Clark - give it up with the "Swift-boating" analogy.

    Tory was a dope for bringing this issue up in a blatant attempt to pander for votes. He's a numbskull for being so thickheaded that he's ignoring the response. He's proving what type of leader he would be - straight over the cliff into the abyss.

    He's swift boating himself.
  84. Osman Aboul-Nasr, Proud Canadian from Simpsonville, SC, United States writes: To MARLON LEVIN from Toronto, Canada, whether what you say about teaching in Jewish schools is correct (I doubt it, I doubt ANY religious school teaches tolerance of other religions) or as Jo Blo from Canada wrote. This is EXACTLY the reason that the state should not sponsor "faith based" schools. Btw, I am Muslim, but I would not ant my mosque to get any of my tax money.
  85. Pandora Spocks from Kingston, Canada writes: "He's going after one aspect of the platform, distorting it, smearing...and refusing to answer questions about his own policy and personal history (Catholic schools supplied the money for that family for a long time, as Ms. Mcquinty brought home the bacon while Dalton floundered!)"

    Actually, he's addressed this at length, I believe.

    But I bet you that John Tory's "personal history" as the father of Negative Billing and Downsizing at Rogers doen't matter as much to you. After all, a duplicitous scheme to separate customers from their money and a cavalier attitude towards the firing of workers is FAR less important than the fact that McGuinty's parents paid (yes, paid, back then) to send him to Catholic schools, or the $40k a year his wife earns as a part-time elementary school teacher.

    Face it -- Tory didn't think his plan all the way through and thought he use the old "claritas cluster" approach to getting votes - and got caught with his pants down.

    He's no more a friend of religious education than I am a pterodactyl.
  86. Clark The Mighty Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Tory is being swift-boated.

    However, like Kerry, it could have been stopped.

    All Tory had to do was say "hey, I'm listening...I'll hold a referendum on the issue."

    Then he'd win.

    Just like Kerry simply had to meet his attacks head on.