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Daughters of immigrants prosper, while sons struggle

TRALEE PEARCE

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:59 AM EDT 30/10/07

Young women with immigrant parents earn more money than their counterparts who have Canadian-born parents ...Read the full article

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  1. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: The title is very misleading, the article basically says: girls do better than boys, but not really.

    If they have the data to sample 97% of the population I don't see why they can't make a comparable test. Only include women who decided not have kids and live in say, Ontario, done. They obviously are using some sort of census data, an information source that would definitely include their marital/kid status and location.

    Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges then tell us that one of them is an orange so the study should not be trusted.
  2. Dave G from Canada writes: Quite frankly, Canada is a garbage can of a country.

    The most stupid, most ignorant, most selfish, xenophobic, nepotistic and ill-educated people I've met were all Canadians.

    Yes, they know when to smile and how to sound worldly wise and super confident but when examined closely they are largely just a bunch of loud-mouthed, faking, thieving racists who have no interest in anybody else but themselves. Birth rates are low here largely because of excessive individualism, greed and irresponsibility.

    I say to all first generation immigrants: don't waste your talents in this dump - go elsewhere where you won't have to wait three generations for your degrees to be of use to you. After all, you can't bequeath them and the white Canadian networks are closed off to most newcomers.
  3. Dennis sinneD. from Calgary, Canada writes:

    Tell us how you really feel, Dave G.

    .
  4. N J from Canada writes: The reason is the Employment Equity. Employment equity is meant to address discrimination problem by taking affirmative action. However, when employers are looking to apply Employment Equity to hire somebody they tend to hire women because they not only make 'visible minority' number higher but also 'percentage of female' number higher.

    This is just a guess. Second reason is that white employers feel a bit threatened by visible minority males. They feel as if the visible minority males are threatening their territory. They do not feel threatened by hiring visible minority females.

    Third reason is that Canada attracts highly skilled immigrants. They tend to be much better educated than general Canadian population. The immigrant children generally are also highly educated. Generally, the visible minority females should make much higher money than Canadian couterparts. But they do not make as much money due to discrimination. It still gives impression they are making more money due to being highly skilled and located in bigger cities.
  5. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    This trend is continuing. Women are the majority at all professional schools at Canadian universities (save for engineering), with the daughters of immigrants comprising a substantial percentage.
  6. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: no

    Dave from Canada, you have it wrong

    your post is nonsense

    canada is an excellent country, a fact made kind of obvious by the fact that folks from so many countries want to move there. if canada was as you claim, a seething racist hole run by closed shop white folks, you wouldn't see so many talented and smart people moving there from india and east asia and so on.

    Your comment is also idiotic where yoy claim: 'birth rates are low here largely because of excessive individualism'.

    That is ridiculous. There is way, way more individualism in kentucky and nebraska and kansas and texas than there is in canada, but their birth rates are not only way higher than the canadian birth rate, they are also higher than in less individualistic regions such as northern california and eastern massachusetts. And, further, the birth rates in greece and spain and parts of scandinavia are even lower than canada's, and yet those places are way less individualistic than canada is.

    so your individualism argument, like the rest of your post, is unsubstantiated nonsense.
  7. Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes:canada is an excellent country, a fact made kind of obvious by the fact that folks from so many countries want to move there.

    1. Response: www.notcanada.com

    (Note that the website was only started in 2004 by an ex-Canadian who is now an American MD).

    2. '...a seething racist hole run by closed shop white folks...'

    'Seething' it generally isn't; the Canadian way is to do things sneakily and quietly. Read this:

    http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/ee/drp-dcln/index_e.htm

    Specifically, read the summary.
  8. Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Dave G, I'd like to chat with you. Can you post a website or email address...
  9. Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: In Canada's power-structure, it's OLD MONEY families running the place, with women who bow to the power structure being 'given' (without any real accomplishments) positions in the banks, government, etc. simply because they are Womyn who won't challenge the elite or the Quebecors.
  10. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: well

    dave from canada

    i looked over your two websites

    one is a website run by a guy from overseas who is mad at canada. wow, with hundreds of thousands of foreigners moving to canada every year, you managed to find one who is really mad and disappointed at how his aspirations went in canada. shocking! so i guess that leaves about 99.9999 percent of overseas folks who moved to canada who you are not drawing our attention to

    the other website is a canada government website that found, what, that new immigrant groups are 'under-represented' in applicant numbers versus job numbers in government-linked jobs especially in the capital city region? well, sherlock, could there be any confounding factors there - like maybe do geta government linked job there do you need to be bilingual french and english, and might that be an unusual trait in folks arriving from india and hong kong and south korea and jamaica?
  11. Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Rich Asians head for Australia, N.Z., Europe or the USA.

    Working class immigrants who can't make it in their home-countries come to canada as a last resort.

    That's rarely told to canadians...but it's the truth...canada=land of last resort!!
  12. Paul Martin from Victoria, Canada writes: Visible minority immigrants come to Canada to get a better life. They are probably trying to escape real poverty, from their hell hole third world countries.

    That is why they strongly encourage their children, girls included, to do well in school, to get a good education, to get good jobs. Those good jobs include becoming doctors, engineers, lawyers, and other white collar jobs.

    If both white parents are born in Canada, then chances are, their children really have no idea what real poverty is like. Their children might be more inclined to take Liberal Arts education, leisure education, or something else equally useless in the job market.

    Besides, visibly minority immigrants are more likely to settle down in Southern Ontario, Montreal, or Vancouver. More opportunities in the big cities...
  13. Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams:

    1. You misrepresent www.notcanada.com.

    Dr. Reza, formerly a Canadian by birth and now a Naturalized American, largely reports the stories of others who have been haed-taxed to death, stripped of their graduate status in Canada and treated like dirt.

    2. Government jobs - there are enough white francophones who can barely speak English and yet who are employed by the federal government in droves. The French language training for anglophones is abysmal yet the exams would sorely test a PhD in French.

    Then there are those who just side-step the official hiring procedures and hire family and friends at will - like one Ms. Francine Gauthier at the Canada Border Services Agency in Ottawa (e-mal on file as proof).

    My e-mail address is: whistleblower_200@yahoo.com
  14. Mary O'Hara from Toronto, Canada writes: Dave....

    Argh.

    Oh well.... the upside of freedom of speech is that it gives some people the freedom to prove that they are total idiots.

    Dave.
  15. Mary O'Hara from Toronto, Canada writes: Now, to the point of the article.... this information is useless when all visible minorities are lumped together.

    If we take out black males, who appear to have a significant issue for a variety of reasons that have long been discussed and debated and which are not the issue here, does the observation that females do better than males still hold up?

    If not, then we are not dealing with an 'immigrant issue', are we?
  16. True Grit from Calgary, Canada writes: N J from Canada, your assessment is dead on.
  17. Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Mary O'Hara from Toronto, Canada writes: Dave....

    Argh.

    Oh well.... the upside of freedom of speech is that it gives some people the freedom to prove that they are total idiots.
    __________________
    You just described yourself very well ol' Mare!
  18. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: no

    dave from canada

    my comments about the website were based on the prominence of the display items there

    the top big photo is headed 'Dr. Khalid Rafiq is one of the hundreds of thousands of IMMIGRANTS in Canada....'

    And the 'about us' section of the website just says it is 'run by a team of former Canadian citizens'. so how many of them on the 'team' are disgruntled immigrants who left canada after getting their citizenships?

    gee, wow, you named one guy (i guess on 'the team?') who was born in canada. why should new immigrants care what a guy born in canada says about their opportunities in canada? wouldn't people who have emigrated to canada from their own overseas home towns be a better source of info for them?
  19. John Silverman from Canada writes: Interesting comment Mary O'Hara, and I'd like to see those stats too.

    I think there is some truth to how hiring a woman helps you pad the % of women AND % of minorities stats, while the same can't be said for hiring minority men.

    Also while I don't agree with this at all, I do see some evidence that people would prefer to hire and work with a minority woman then a white woman. There seems to be a misconception that they are willing to work harder and won't complain as much. In fact even with men some people have this attitude. They think native Canadian white people have a much higher sense of entitlement and may also be lazier, etc. due to lax parents, while immigrants are seen to be really hard workers.
  20. Iain Scott from Calgary, Canada writes: NJ, the issue is not employment equity. Dave G, why don't you move to Mississippi where you belong. The problem is the cultural backgrounds that these immigrants come from, and depending on that background, the expectations that these youth have may be unrealistic or rewarded, based on gender. My bet is that the 'visible minority males' who are having a problem making it come from homes where their parents do not consider the sexes to be co-equal, and that the 'visible minority females' who are succeeding above their peers come from those same homes. In other words, the boys want to live in a pre-emancipation like their fathers did, and the girls are happy to escape into one.
  21. Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams:

    Dr Reza is the website founder. He has many letters and interviews with cheated immigrants plastered all over the site. Peruse it to see.

    Had this website existed when I applied to emigrate to Canada then I wouldn't have wasted my time and money. I did not obtain postgraduate qualifications so that they would be useless to me in Canada and only of potential dubious benefit to my grandchildren.

    I will vote with my feet and return to Western Europe, where they do understand sophistication, honesty in business dealings and sincerity.
  22. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: yawn

    dave g

    again, to summarize

    you have identified evidence of a small vocal minority of immigrants to canada being disappointed with canada and with how things went there for them

    yawn

    so you somehow think that, in combination with your own personal disappointments, proves that canada is a bad destination for immigrants ?

    huh?

    sorry, dude, anyone who has seen the bright, smiling, polite and happy faces of various colors on the streets and parks and campuses and businesses of Toronto and Vancouver knows that your exclusive and nearsighted focus on a disgruntled anti-canada minority is out to lunch.
  23. asm oak bay from Canada writes: Dave G from Canada: don't like it here? Then go. Quickly. We don't need you.
  24. gargi ganguli from montreal, Canada writes: Young 'visible minority' women are not viewed as a threat by mainstream society in the same way that 'visible minority' men are. Instead they're viewed as decorative, 'exotic' (ugh) etc, all of which ends up as 'non-threatening'. Mainstream societies which practice discrimination against a minority often end up affording greater opportunities to that minority's women for just such reasons. This is the case with African-Americans and natives.
  25. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: further

    dave from canada

    laugh out loud

    you are encouraging overseas visible minority foreigners to move to europe instead of canada so that they will not experience so much 'racism' and 'xenophobia' as in canada?

    um, do ever read about complaints from minority immigrants in cities of france and northern europe? doesn't sound like it.....
  26. Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes:

    To prve how worthless Canada has been to Chinese immigrants over the last decade it suffices for me to inform you that close 1 million Chinese-Canadians (either permanent residents or full Canadian citizens) are now residing back in their ancestral homeland.

    The question you need to ask the Candian government is how newly issued (to immigrants) Social Insurance Numbers are now inactive.

    That will give you a scale of the catastrophe/tragedy Canada is engaged in.

    ASM Oak Bay: Canada offers the world nothing useful.

    Unless you count duplicity, fickleness, cowardice, complete self-absorption, crap cusine and and even worse clothing, superficiality, volume over quality, greed, stinginess, rampant dishonesty, institutional racism (still continuing against Aboriginals today, not just against visible minority government job applicants as in my posts above) as 'good' things.

    Canada is a void of integrity. Why wasn't either Chretien or Zacardelli arrested and charged? Because corruption and nepotism are rampant here as well.
  27. asm oak bay from Canada writes: gargi ganguli from montreal, Canada: where in he** did you come up with that nonsense? Some left wing, bleeding heart 'academic journal'?
  28. Dave G from Canada writes: 'Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: further

    dave from canada...um, do ever read about complaints from minority immigrants in cities of france and northern europe? doesn't sound like it..... '

    At least they're honest about it. But their societies are far more sophisticated at an everyday level. North America is largely one hicktown full of yee-hawing rednecks.

    gargi ganguli from montreal, Canada: agreed. They're viewed as easier to sexually harass and dominate. It's that Canadian megalomania of managers/employers thinking they own you like a slave.
  29. Mary O'Hara from Toronto, Canada writes: Dave G. In order to prove to you how worthwhile Asian immigration has been to Canada and to the Asians, I would ask you to look at your nearest hospital, and ask yourself what percentage of the doctors are Asian.

    Male and female.
  30. Steve Not an Alberta Redneck from Canada writes: 'True Grit from Calgary, Canada writes: N J from Canada, your assessment is dead on.' Yes, this answers it well and the rest of the posts are just the regular rants with pointless responses. Most government and corporate offices, where the best jobs are usually found, are continuously concerned about not hiring enough women and minorities. Hiring a minority woman is an effective way of meeting both quotas.
  31. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: yawn

    dave g

    your ranting is so uninformative and unobjective

    now you point ot that many folks who left hong kong during the period of uncertainty (british to communist china transition a decade ago) decided to return home to hong kong once it proved to not have become too communist-nutty. yawn. that hardly says much about canada, which served as a safe interim haven for them.

    you might want to take a trip to vancouver and look at the elementary schools in the best neighborhoods - one generation ago they were 95 percent white, today they are 75 percent asian canadian. so much for your theory that they all fled back to their home lands.

    now, compared to europe, you describe canada as 'one hicktown full of yee-hawing rednecks'.

    gee, with your attitude, it is so hard to imagine why you aren't getting along in canada.

    well, don't let the door hit your behind on your permanent trip back to your beloved european fatherland.
  32. carol c from Canada writes: http://www.triec.ca/newsite/docs/Fact%20Sheet%20-%20Statistics.doc

    Here's some interesting statistics about recent immigrants.

    Dave, you obviously have strong feelings about Canada. I wonder if you were born here or immigrated here? I wonder why you stay in a country that you seem to hate when it's usually possible to move?

    I've lived for at least 6 months in 6 countries on 4 continents and Canada seems to be a pretty good place to be after that experience. It could improve of course, no country is perfect, but life here is pretty good in my opinion.
  33. Roberto P from Canada writes: Dave G is the most intelligent and truthful person on this board. Almost all the posts against him only verify his arguments. As a second generation Canadian born visable minority this study and others should be knocking you on the head like a bat. But it doesn't. 'Oh we're Canadian, we're so great and peaceful and blah blah blah.' Whatever. This country is run by the most polite racists on this planet. There's a white network and any visable minority who lives here more than 10 years is very aware of it. Especially those that are born here and have had to live it for decades. Take a stroll down our financial and bussiness centre on Bay Street and you'll be hard pressed to find a handful of immigrants. This is in TORONTO (the supposed melting pot of Canada that every white Canadian thinks is over run by immigrants) Cue the openly racist Canadian comments: 'well if you don't like then leave'. ..... I have a masters degree from the US worth a fortune everywhere else but here, so yes, I'm dumping your backwards hick country and going somewhere that matters. Then I'm going to join a big US fortune 500 company and mercilessly slash all your jobs. And no it's not business, it'll be personal. And no I'm not grateful to be living in Canada. I was born here like all you racists and expected the same treatment and lifestyle. I didn't choose to live here like every white Canadian thinks all visable minorities do. Spread the word Dave G. You know what you're talking about.
  34. carol c from Canada writes: 'I didn't choose to live here like every white Canadian thinks all visable minorities do.'

    How can you cry racism in one scentence then come out with a racist statement in the next? I'm a white Canadian and I'm fully aware that some visible minorities are born and raised here. Somehow I think your attitude may be more of a deterrent than your race.

    If I walked down Bay Street I wouldn't see a hell of a lot of white or other women either. Fact is that WASPY white men are still in charge of the money. It'll change in time.
  35. stand up mimi from Canada writes: Roberto P from Canada writes: 'I have a masters degree from the US worth a fortune everywhere else but here, so yes, I'm dumping your backwards hick country and going somewhere that matters. Then I'm going to join a big US fortune 500 company and mercilessly slash all your jobs.'

    A master's degree by itself is not 'worth a fortune' to most companies. I don't doubt there is still racism around, but that seems like a sense of entitlement simmering in a pot of rage. I'm not sure what you've heard about Fortune 500 companies, but I work for one in Canada and there is far less racism in my office than the main offices in the US. Just so you know.
  36. Mary O'Hara from Toronto, Canada writes: Dave G and Roberto P. Similar writing style. Similar rant. I wonder if an IP check would reveal that you are the same person.

    Please reply. Explain how, in this great white conspiracy, when you walk into a hospital, a large proportion are Asian and non-white non-asian.

    As for the value of a masters.... it's nada. What is your Masters in? Whining? And when you job up for job interviews, do you rant and rave against Canada and accuse Canadians of being racist?
  37. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: well

    roberto

    do you know what the scientific method is?

    it involves having a 'control' in your setting.

    all you have done is griped that canada is not perfect. you have not stated that 'oh, as a visible minority I lived in Paris and it was much better there, or I lived years in Alabama and it was much better there, or I lived years in Copenhagen and it was much better there...'

    no, all you have done (n equals one for number of countries) is gripe about the one Western country you have lived in for decades.

    hopefully you will outgrow your adolescent-sounding revenge motivatiosn for succeeding in business. your issues sound more to do with what is between your ears (attitude) than they do with where your ears were raised (experiences).

    There were folks with last names like Rabinowicz and Leibovitz and Weiss who sounded less angry with Germany in 1946 than you do with Canada in 2007.

    And frankly, sir, to put it in that perspective - your attitude sounds just plain nuts.
  38. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: Being a white male who makes a pretty decent salary and owns a executive size home, I think I would know of any racist networks in my area actively keeping minorities down. But I haven't been invited to any yet.

    Canada isn't perfect, but it beats ducking for cover from gunfire as a daily routine.

    Dave, like it or not, you are welcome here. I am sorry you are having such a hard time with your life. Perhaps during job interviews you show your contempt for the interviewer?

    I recommend pretending to be a nice person, and fool the racists into giving you a job.
  39. Davis Simpson from Calgary, writes: Methinks Dave G. is having a conversation with himself. I have serious doubts to whether you're even serious Dave, or just trolling for a response.

    But here are some points for you to dismiss. You keep saying Canada sucks but you insinuate that the U.S. is a fine country in which to live. So they have no racism? They acknowledge every creditential from a 3rd world country? They have no corruption? They didn't oppress the Native Americans?

    So I guess you believe Bush is a model leader? You probably think that historical records of the U.S. wiped out whole nations of Native Americans are lies. Race riots? Never happened. Not in the tolerent paradise of the United States.

    Oh, but Europe is better. The rampant Islamophobia in France doesn't exist. The race riots there don't exist. Neither do poor ghettos.

    Oh, but its all white folks everywhere who are racist. There is no intolerance in other parts of the world... like, oh say, Japan? Oh, the rampant racism in Japan towards Koreans and their refusal to acknowledge their war record is just an anomoly. India is a much better example. No racism there. They just kill you because of your religion or your sex.

    Dave G. You're a joke.
  40. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: ' asm oak bay from Canada writes: gargi ganguli from montreal, Canada: where in he** did you come up with that nonsense? Some left wing, bleeding heart 'academic journal'? ' . . . Yeah, and probbly that thar 'bleeding heart academic journal' has articles written by sissy-pants 'innuhleckchewulls' who use fancy-schmancy 'terms' and 'words'. MORON.
  41. John Silverman from Canada writes: The US is alot more racist then Canada, so right there we know Dave G and Roberto P are talking nonsense. Not to mention all the minorities I know who have powerful jobs in the financial and other industries, and/or were born and raised here and who do not agree at all with these comments. But let's not feed the trolls.

    asm oak bay from Canada writes: gargi ganguli from montreal, Canada: where in he** did you come up with that nonsense? Some left wing, bleeding heart 'academic journal'? '

    Huh??? I didn't see anything 'left wing' OR 'right wing' in his/her post. Just a very sensible observation. Your comment makes no sense.
  42. Richard Picard from Chelsea, QC, Canada writes: Someone here needs a nap and have his meds increased. Just sayin'...
  43. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: I don't think the idea that sex appeal allows women of visible minorities to do better in Canada than the men is too terribly hard to believe. Show me a country where that isn't true and we can all move there.

    We'll call it Utopia. It most likely isn't on earth and it certainly isn't in heaven
  44. Dave G from Canada writes: 'kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: Being a white male who makes a pretty decent salary and owns a executive size home, I think I would know of any racist networks in my area actively keeping minorities down.'

    Try writing to Dr Maria Barroados, Public Service Canada (PSC) Commissioner, and ask her whether and why there is no employment equity plan for visible minorities in PSC hiring, though there are ones for women, disabled persons and Aboriginal peoples.

    Barrados is presently hammering one out with PSC, only a mere 12 years after the federal Employment Equity Act 1995 was enacted.

    Visible minorities have resided in Canada since the beginning but particularly since the 1960s. The implications are crystal clear.
  45. stand up mimi from Canada writes: Steve Lee from Canada writes: 'Young women of immigrant parents are not yet distracted and are influenced to work hard while young women of Canadian born immigrant parents have gotten distracted and influenced by the Canadian habit of not having to work.'

    Ah yes, that 'Canadian' habit of not having to work. Thank goodness 80 percent of us can just relax on the deck all day drinking mai tais because we don't have to earn a living. Are we all rich with ill-gotten gain, or are we all on welfare? I'm confused. Please enlighten us further about Canadians and their lazy ways. I'd really like to take time out of my long work day to read about it.
  46. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: I'll let you handle that Dave. You have a way with words....

    You could quite likely be right about that. I don't have time to research it. And sure, racism is alive and well here, as it EVERYWHERE else in the world. That doesn't make everyone here a racist.

    I worry that people are not kind to you because you are not very nice, but you misinterpret that as racism. At the current rate, even your fellow visible minorities are going to feel 'racist' towards you. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

    I cannot imagine why you think you would be treated better in the US or Europe. I think you should make sure you have a job first and do some research before you move there.
  47. Dave G from Canada writes: 'carol c from Canada writes:...If I walked down Bay Street I wouldn't see a hell of a lot of white or other women either. Fact is that WASPY white men are still in charge of the money. It'll change in time. '

    In the time since Kim Campbell was temporary PM of Canada a Canadian woman (Clara Furze) was manager of the London Stock Exchange.

    Canada a progressive country, even in comparison to England??? You're having a total laugh.

    At that rate it will be 2100AD by the time women finally break through in this colonial outpost that time forgot, let alone visible minorities.
  48. B H from Toronto, Canada writes: So if I'm reading the article right, it sounds like they're just saying the income gap between men and women is smaller among children of immigrants than it is among multi-generation Canadians? I.e., the daughters of immigrants do better than multi-generation Canadian women, because those women are doing so much more badly on average? While the young men are being compared to men, who on average are doing very well? I guess this sort of makes sense if you consider that our immigration system heavily favours highly educated people who tend to have highly educated kids. But from the sound of this article, it sounds like the news is as much about how bady less-educated or rural women are doing economically in Canada as it as about how the daughters of immigrants (ie, on average the well-educated urban daughters of well-educated people) are doing. It sounds like they may be implying that for men, income is less dependent on family educational background than it is for women? So even relatively uneducated men from poor families can make a good income?

    They aren't even actually saying the young women are doing better than their brothers -- they are saying the women are doing better than other women while the men aren't doing as well as other men.
  49. carol c from Canada writes: I wonder what Micaelle Jean would have to say about that Dave? Certainly, she is an acception to the rule, but also proof that immigrant women of colour can achieve high success in Canadian society.
  50. Bake McBride from Vancouver, Canada writes: I'm 1st gen visible minority male (although i came as a tyke during late 60's). Growing up in East Van at the time I recall quite a lot of racism, but that has changed & for most - very rare today. Surely those who aren't fluent English speakers may still experience it, but often I think it's the lack of communication that frustrates a white or native-born Cdn when dealing w/immigrants who can't speak fluent Eng, rather than blatant racism.

    It's unfortunate for highly-educated immigrants whose professional educ credentials aren't recognized - that certainly has to be changed. However, most immigrants do see Canada as a land of opportunity & have hopes of their children & ea. subsequent generation doing better & accumulating greater wealth. That isn't much different than the 'old money' concept.

    I'd be the last guy to tell unhappy immigrants where to go. My parents would've preferred the USA, but their immigration policy at the time wasn't as open & I have absolutely no regrets about my parents' decision & my fate.
  51. Dave G from Canada writes: 'carol c from Canada writes: I wonder what Micaelle Jean would have to say about that Dave? Certainly, she is an acception to the rule, but also proof that immigrant women of colour can achieve high success in Canadian society. '

    She has little/no power and was chosen precisely because she is/was everything the Liberal Party could not offer from its immediate Cabinet ranks - a black woman professional.

    Glad that Jean has the position but let's not kid ourselves, there's only one vacancy and it doesn't require a graduate degree or specific experience to fill it. It's a sinecure, patronage-based political appointment.

    Let's get back to reality and start talking about the decimated hopes of non-white Canadian graduates who effectively only subsidize their white colleagues in universities and colleges all across this land.

    When the employment rate for visibile minorities in the federal public service is just 8% today then you and I both know there's a real problem.
  52. stand up mimi from Canada writes: B H from Toronto - that's how I interpreted the study, too - as showing rural and less educated women doing poorly, while men of the same background and location do well. Why the gap? Is it because in a small town, men might make a decent salary at the local plant, which is male-dominated, and the only other jobs around are at Tim Horton's? Or is it because more women in rural areas choose to stay home with the kids? Housing is cheaper there and leaving the work force may actually be an option, whereas in urban areas it's often not a possibility. There seem to be a lot of factors such as location and personal choice that make the comparisons between the groups a bit meaningless.
  53. carol c from Canada writes: There certainly is a problem Dave, I'm not debating that racism exists in Canada. Racism exists everywhere. I'm simply suggesting that there's less of it in Canada than other countries I've lived in.

    Have you lived elsewhere? What do you compare your experience in Canda with?
  54. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: more high paying rural jobs have physical demands that common perception thinks is best suited for men. While not fair, there may be some truth to it, although not in every case of course

    Plus to hire a girl on the rig means taking all the snap-on calenders down. It just takes some getting used to. In time...
  55. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: wow

    dave g, haven't you moved back to your beloved European fatherland yet?

    by now i thought you'd be packed up and walking out to the airport taxi.

    why are you staying one extra minute in a country that makes you so bitter and unhappy and disappointed?
  56. Dave G from Canada writes: carol c:

    UK (substantially), Italy, USA, Germany (substantially), Czech Republic, Jamaica, Thailand, and Canada (substantially).
  57. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: incidentally

    who on earth measures their success in a country based on employment in the federal public service?

    wouldn't fewer working in Ottawa be not necessarily a sign of a 'real problem' but rather a sign of a real success?

    after all, a lot of folks wonder if the federal public service is a place that accumulates (like dust in the corners of a room) folks who are useless and unproductive and who couldn't make it in the real world.

    by that perspective, the fact that a given group has few workers sucking tax money off the federal teat should probably be worn like a badge of honor!

    what cushy job would anyone want in the federal public service, by the way - perhaps a 35 hour work week as an assistant deputy executive liason in public relations for the undersceretary's secretary of intergovernmental affairs, with 6 weeks vacation a year?

    when you get that job, is that when you know you've 'made it', and you can then set aside your angry bitterness against so many around you?

    wouldn't most folks rather make it in the real world?
  58. Dave G from Canada writes: 'Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes:...why are you staying one extra minute in a country that makes you so bitter and unhappy and disappointed?'

    Unlike some, I actually believe in slow revenge. From within.
  59. carol c from Canada writes: 'I actually believe in slow revenge.'

    I dunno Dave, spending your life miserable so you can exact revenge on a faceless and nameless force in a society doesn't seem like a good way to spend your short time on the planet to me. But, you know, it's up to you. Keep in mind though that you reap what you sow.
  60. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: no

    wrong question, carol c

    hey dave, what job workplaces were you working at in the UK and Germany and the USA and the czech republic and jamaica and thailand?

    the fact that you have 'lived' somewhere means nothing to the question of comparing racism in the workplace. The meaningful question is, what workplaces have you actually been employed in, to see first hand how the promotions and hirings were being handled.

    if you were fully employed in all those countries, why do you move so often from country to country? Do you leave each country on such a blameful and bitter note as the one on which you are currently fleeing canada?
  61. Roberto P from Canada writes: Dave's right again. Michaelle Jean's posting is a blatent publicity stunt to appease minorities. It's outright insulting and only highlights that there's no minorities in important political positions. Tyler, Mimi and whoever else. I'm sure you'd like to believe I'm some crazy, conspiracy driven, angry at the world guy, stomping around in interviews demanding recognition for academic accomplishments. Unfortunately for your ego and country, I'm not. I'm a professional in the real world. There are some visable minorities outside of the Asian demographic who are hired to important position which match their creditentials and education, but they're an insignificant statistic in Canada. Take a look at all the major banks and financial industries senior management and its super obvious about what Dave and I are talking about. I speak for the thousands of immigrants tired of quitely being passed over by less educated, experienced and qualified 6 foot tall WASP's who fit white Canadians stereotypical profile of a leader. Take a look at who's in charge of your company. 99% of your CEO or senior staff fit this stereotype. I'm also irritated when Canadians compare their racism to other countries and prouldly proclaim how their not as racist. That's the most pathetic argument a true racist can claim. The facts don't support Canada is less racist than the US. There's a much higher proportion of minorities in senior positions throughout the US. I guess sometimes they actually reward talent above their own stereotypes. Look at the CEO of AMEX. Better yet, look at Obama, Condaleza Rice, Colin Powel, etc etc. The US even has organizations for Black Mayors. The day I see a black man or visable minority running a major financial institution in Canada, or better yet in a significant government position I'll personally appoligize to every one of you.
  62. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: wow

    like wow

    i have never read a post that sounded so much like the pathetic creature Gollum from Lord of the Rings

    Dave now says that yes, he is bitterly frustrated and resentful of horrible, awful, disgusting canada, but that instead of going back to his beloved Europe he has instead decided to stay in Canada because, my precious, 'unlike some, I actually believe in slow revenge, from within'...

    What the f-ck does that deranged-sounding comment mean? Should anyone be phoning the police? Are you adding cyanide to the drinks of white folks at the bar down the street, or tossing the body of the occasional employment executive into Lake Ontario?
  63. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Hey!

    I just had an idea.

    Maybe the reason that Roberto is having trouble getting ahead has to do with his inability to spell, as in:

    'visable minorities'

    'their creditentials'

    'tired of quitely being passed'

    'and prouldly proclaim how their not as racist'

    'The day I see a black man or visable minority'

    'I'll personally appoligize'

    GONG!
  64. stand up mimi from Canada writes: So Roberto, according to you, if the US appoints a black person as secretary of state, that means they reward talent above stereotypes. If Canada appoints one as GG it's a 'blatant publicity stunt'.

    There are all kinds of non-whites in government positions in Canada. Look around. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but if you think it's better in the US based on how many black mayors there are (in a country ten times the size of Canada with a far larger African-American population) I think you might be in for a surprise.
  65. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: I thought Condaleza Rice and Colin Powel were just appointed to patronize visible minorities? Shows what I know.

    Its not like Bush actually listens to anything they say. He only listens to his Dick Chaney ;)
  66. carol c from Canada writes: Last time I checked Governer General is a significant government position.

    Comparing black people in Canada and the US is a little difficult. 12.8% of the US population is black (population about 300 million). 1.97% of Canada's population is black (population 3.4 million). So saying that there are a much higher proportion of black people in positions of authority in the US may be a reflection of a higher population.

    I wonder what a black person living in the American south would have to say about the lack of racism in the US? I understand that it's still a huge problem there.
  67. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: wow

    sounds like somebody should phone the police about dave (and roberto -are they indeed the same person?)

    dave just wrote to me: 'Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams from seattle, you become more obnoxious the more you are allowed to breathe our valuable and finite air'.

    wow, nice job at a thinly veiled threat of violence there, dave!

    So, dave, when those riots come in canada that you predict, will you be the first out there with a baseball bat to aim at the heads of folks who remind you of Tyler Williams?
  68. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: Dave so eloquently stated:

    'you can just see the riots breaking out all over when the next recession hits this country.'

    I am sure you'll be there with the megaphone. While you waste you time with that, other visible minorities will be acquiring careers and making money. You'll have to drive them to their destinations.
  69. F Day from Edmonton, Canada writes: I think that some of the people here should stop getting outraged so often. After all, this is a discussion and a chance to express your informed thoughts; not a lets-insult-each-other arena!
    That said, I work for a very well to do investment firm and I do notice the differences in the subtle manner people are treated for a variety of reasons. I don't believe that most mainstream Canadians truly understand what racism is in the modern workplace. It is NOT usually blatant, but it emerges more subconsciously in the level of comfort people feel towards one another. It means that the visible minority employee must struggle much harder to reach the same goal as a 'white' employee.
  70. jck from ontario from Canada writes: The Last two Governors General were non white . Sorry I forgot the GG job is retirement home for the CBC
  71. mike clark from 7 Islands, Canada writes: Dear David G. You mush have a big chip on your shoulder the comments you make are your opinion and really not worth the time it takes to answer you, but you are really well educated and must have a very good job like taking out your garbage while we pay for you. So have a nice day.
  72. Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams from seattle, United States:

    You're 'living' proof that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

    Instead of picking on others for their spelling you should check your own typos; for a start, look at the way you consistently abuse the first letter in the word Canada.

    Imbeciles who live in glasshouses and all of that...

    With more than four decades of experience on this planet, in contrast to your full one, I 'don't move so often'. I work in international law and have the privilege to travel abroad in and through my work.

    Finally, I simply don't intend to run away from North America simply because some obnoxious and undignified pubescent North American tells/shouts at me me that it's time to go.

    I will go when I am ready, not before, and I will go after I have collected my refund.
  73. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: so

    Day from Edmonton

    Please list the countries that you have worked in to compare Canada to - did you work in France and Germany and the Netherlands and Denmark and Alabama?

    Nobody on this board who is reasonable is denying that there is racism in Canada. Of course there is. But...

    Go up and read over the posts - the reasons that there is a heated debate here is that two post writers (well, maybe they are the same person) keep arguing that Canada - yes, specifically and only Canada - is the singularly absolutely most racist, redneck, xenophobic, backwards hell-hole on the planet as afar as racist discrimination goes.

    And the shifting data sets and shifting content they focus on in their arguments suggest that they do not know what they are talking about as far as nation to nation comparisons go.
  74. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: 'I will go when I am ready, not before, and I will go after I have collected my refund'

    If Canada was as bad as you say, you wouldn't have that privilege.
  75. Roberto P from Canada writes: Tyler, thanks for the spell checking. That was incredible insight into my comment. Especially the GONG part. Too bad I dont care enough to spell check so I can impress you.

    You guys sort this out amongst yourself. I'm smart enough to realize nothing will change. Canadians aren't racist, they'd vote for a minority if given the chance, they hire minorities in equal proportion to the demographic.....pat yourselves on the back. Canadians have convinced themselves of this nonsense to the point it's senseless using facts or scientific research. Also, I don't know Dave but he makes some very valid comments. He's also the only other person not completely brainwashed by Canadian propoganda.
  76. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: what a laugh

    what a freaking laugh

    dave now belches out: 'With more than four decades of experience on this planet...',

    what is that supposed to mean, dave? that you are now in your 40s? Gee, wow, Dave, aren't you special in that regard. Not!

    Well, I'm in my 40s, too, so I guess we've both had 'more than four decades of experience on this planet', as you weirdly put it.

    What planet were you on before you got to this one?
  77. Dave G from Canada writes: 'Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: so

    Day from Edmonton

    Please list the countries that you have worked in to compare Canada to - did you work in France and Germany and the Netherlands and Denmark and Alabama?

    Nobody on this board who is reasonable is denying that there is racism in Canada. Of course there is. But...'

    My God, this 'patriotic' expatriate Canadian living in American has finally learnt to speak/write the truth.

    This must be a Canadian/North American first. With that out of the way we can begin to attack the constant denial mode. Historic progress has been made here this afternoon on this thread.

    Honesty in North America; who would have believed it??? I'm astonished that true civilization is finally creeping in this direction.
  78. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: hey

    dave

    why don't you word things a bit more honestly to readers?

    suddenly you weirdly belch out at me: 'I simply don't intend to run away from North America simply because some obnoxious and undignified pubescent North American....'

    Hey, dude, listen, allow me to quote what you yourself wrote a few hours ago:

    'I will vote with my feet and return to Western Europe, where they do understand sophistication, honesty in business dealings and sincerity.'

    That was you talking, there, dude, not me. All I did was to repeat what you said your own plan was.
  79. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: Ok, i think we've finally digressed to the point when we should all stop posting, go home, crack a beer, make love to our significant others and reminisce about how we'd have never been able to do this in China.

    Cheers, and good luck to all who seek it.
  80. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: hey dave,

    what a laugh!

    in your latest post, you write:

    'you're a coward who wouldn't dare say what he's written here to a non-white male - if you did, then you know your life expectancy would be very short indeed'.

    what is that weird and racist comment supposed to mean, dave? do you realize that you just clearly implied that non-white males, unlike white males, react with lethal uncontrollable violence to unwanted argument?

    dude, i am actually quite happy to say anything I've said on this board face to face to black folks - in fact, one of the folks who i email-forward the content of these kinds of boards to is a black american who enjoys reading the back and forth on these sorts of topics.

    so it is really unclear who you think you are to be proclaiming yourself as some kind of speaker on behalf of non-white folks, as if you somehow deserve to speak on their behalf or as if you somehow know that they would all violently react to my comments. I can assure you that they would not.

    And given your weirdly vile comment about 'like all rectums/recta you're full of and caked in faeces', it is unclear why any group anywhere would want you speaking on their behalf, dude!
  81. Dave G from Canada writes: Tyler Williams from seattle, United States:

    You should try using cannabis, 'dude'. Your boss won't see the same level of hyperactivity.

    My forty-three year old neighbour, despite being North American, has never called me 'dude'.

    I always thought that term was reserved for the 'hip and cool' under-30 somethings.

    How's the weather in Seattle 'dude'; are you really even there I wonder - not just mentally but physically too?
  82. Dave G from Canada writes: Nice post JR. Very perceptive and sharply articulated.
  83. George BrownIII from Christmas Island writes: Dave have yourself checked out before you go postal.
  84. kid ego from Victoria, Canada writes: Dave G from Canada writes: Nice post JR. Very perceptive and sharply articulated.

    Yes I especially like the part where I as part of the evil white Canada tried to get 'em but failed. funny I don't remember doing that.
    • Posted 30/10/07 at 6:23 PM EDT |