Skip navigation

 Login or Register | Member Centre

Restless spirits

GEOFFREY YORK AND ANTHONY REINHART

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 7:08 AM EDT 07/11/07

Youth maintain hope for a free Tibet ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. Yanxu Li from Canada writes: I was quite confused by Dalai Lama. He claimed that he wanted to reconcile with government China. On the other hand, he kept offending Chinese government by meeting European and North American leaders. His diplomacy seems very difficult for me to understand. Anyway wish him good luck.
  2. Yanxu Li from Canada writes: I was also confused by the fact that Dalai Lama is the only leader of Tibetans. He has been a leader for how many year? 40? Is that a soft of dictatorship? Is he going to be the Chairman Mao for Tibetans?
    The future of Tibet should be based on a more diversified and more educated Tibetan community. I am not sure whether Dalai Lama can be the leader to make this happen.
  3. James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: yanxu li, i would advise you to learn the difference between revered religious leaders and dictators. they are not the same thing.
  4. graeme charles from kingston, Canada writes: i bet yanxu li is a business man. watching someone strain to criticize is always hilarious....
  5. Frank Lee My Dears I Don't Give A Damn from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Yanxu li should study Tibetan history and how the Dalai Lama (as leader) has been chosen.
  6. Satburn *** from Ontario, Canada writes: The promotion of non-violent means…a bridge is the best way for all of us. The very sincere attempts of Mr Victor Wong is greatly appreciated. We also appreciate means of all Tibetan's Way of Patient and Compassion. We all see, DL as a Wolrd Teacher of Non-Violence and as a Living Liberty of Human Norms in this Violent World of Extremism.
  7. Tim Robinson from United Kingdom writes: Until China admits their policy of extermination and amends it, western opinion will always be with Tibet. The forced sterilization of Tibetan women by China in the 50's and 60's is akin to genocide, and yet the left in Canada says we must bow down to China. Bollocks. We should boycott the Olympics and disallow Chinese investment in Canada until Tibet has automony and transparency to the west. China plays us all for fools, and most countries go along. Shameful.
  8. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: Tim Robinson from United Kingdom writes: Until China admits their policy of extermination and amends it, western opinion will always be with Tibet. The forced sterilization of Tibetan women by China in the 50's and 60's is akin to genocide, and yet the left in Canada says we must bow down to China. Bollocks. We should boycott the Olympics and disallow Chinese investment in Canada until Tibet has automony and transparency to the west. China plays us all for fools, and most countries go along. Shameful.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    The interesting aftermath of this 'extermination' is that the Tibetan population has more than doubled after China took over Tibet. Somehow I think those 'sterilized women' are hardy enough to give births. Maybe we should look for another Virgin Mary out there?
  9. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: The gods may be listening but what about the godless, or ungodly?

    What else may be needed for peoples aspirations to be achieved?
  10. F H from Canada writes: Li, it's very easy to understand.

    The revered Dalai Llama has been meeting with Western leaders as he has an obligation to his people to take care of them and ensure that they have somewhere to live where they won't be in fear of being exterminated like China has so long tried to do to them. As such, one of the main reasons he's been meeting with the leaders is to ask them to take in displaced Tibetans who aren't allowed to return to their ancestral country. By doing so, he's ensuring that the more hot-headed youth won't veer from his path of peace and diplomacy and to let them known that there are options, even for people put in such desperate straits.

    It's in China's best interest to support him in doing so as it both protects China from a non-diplomatic response from the refugees that China has barred from their home country and also shows that China is strong enough not to show the terror of this gentle man that they've already shown and that they needn't act like frightened, petty children when it comes to him. They may THINK they're giving the impression of strength, but the exact opposite is what is actually happening.
  11. otto otto from baoding, China writes: Tibet is China`s,and it isn`t Canada`s.
  12. M S from Toronto, Canada writes: Looks as though the government of China has its agents monitoring the G&M website. Take your propaganda somewhere else, comrades.
  13. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: China is a COMMUNIST police state. PERIOD. . . . and Tibet does not "belong" to China -- what laughable nonsense. Is the Dalai Lama a "dictator" (Moron No. 1, above, asks) ? Gee, I dunno, maybe if the thugs from COMMUNIST China stopped their occupation, a FREE Tibet could actually, y'know, HAVE a free election, eh ? And then if COMMUNIST China decided to let other political parties exist, and let freedom exist, and turned its phony "court system" into a genuine court system, then IT could have a free election. What a concept.
  14. F H from Canada writes: No Otto, Tibet does NOT belong to China. China is an invading country, which no more legally makes Tibet China's any more than Iraq belongs to the States.
  15. George Hall from Canada writes: How anyone can defend the actions of the disgusting Chinese is beyond me..these people have no heart or soul.
    The Chinese military have murdered innocent Tibetans and destroyed ancient temples. The Chinese are pathetic to destroy these people...the Chinese won't even negotiate or talk..They are the definition of ignorance.
  16. D F from Regina, Canada writes: Maybe China is starting to come down harder because there is actually growing quiet support for the plight of the Tibetans and the way of the Dali Lama.
  17. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: No Otto, Tibet does NOT belong to China. China is an invading country, which no more legally makes Tibet China's any more than Iraq belongs to the States.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    China has declared sovereignty, had government representative, and even stationed army in Tibet for more than 300 years to say the least, and you say it does not belong to China?

    As near as 1930s, the 9th Penchan sent a letter, on his own will, to then Chinese government to recognize Chinese sovereignty in Tibet. Then China fell into 13 years of wars till 1949, when Chinese had no time to deal with any issues other than wars. After 1949 China simply restored sovereignty.

    As for Dalai Lama himself, he refused to recognize the 10th Panchen. The Tibetan monks felt that it is too dangerous to keep Panchen in his home temple. They sent Panchen back to his hometown where he was protected against murders. China put forward a 17 point agreement to Dalai Lama. One of the points is that he has to recognize Panchen:
    http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/17-point-agreement.html
    Basically this means China restored the Tibetan power-sharing structure between the Lamas, which was established China during Qing Dynasty.

    The comparison between Iraq and USA is irrelevant. Tibetan has never been a sovereign state for at least last 300 years. There is simply NO country in this world, in modern history, that recognize Tibet as a nation.
  18. George Hall from Canada writes: When the world witnesses the ruthless imperialist murdering brutality of the Chinese leaders on an innocent country like Tibet it represents the type of people you are dealing with
  19. Mister Fartleberry from Toronto, Canada writes: After their Oscar winning repeat performance of whining about Canada welcoming the Dalai Lama maybe China will fill us in on how they lied and cheated to put a Pratt PT6 in their new military helicopter. Oh, but they were going to develop their own engine - meaning reverse engineering the Pratt. Where's the story Globe? NYT carries it.
  20. George Hall from Canada writes: Tibet definitely does not belong to China..it ws part of the British Empire not that long ago and it is still in dispute.... the Chinese at the very lest need to talk and give autonomy within China..otherwise China will remain ostracized from the greater world
  21. F H from Canada writes: "Then China fell into 13 years of wars till 1949, when Chinese had no time to deal with any issues other than wars. After 1949 China simply restored sovereignty."

    Simply stating you own something doesn't mean you ACTUALLY own something. For example, I can state I own China. Doesn't make it true though, does it?

    Tibet was last British Territory (not Chinese) until the 50's when China started their massacre of the Tibetans, destroying their temples and holy writings, stealing their land and resources and installing a puppet government. NONE of this makes Tibet theirs while the Tibetans consider themselves seperate and independant of their invading forces.

    The good Llama has offered a middle way in which Tibet has autonomy. Why is China so terrified of a reasonable compromise? Why does he terrify some of you so much? Diplomacy, human rights, freedom of religion, etc. are all things that help EVERYONE on the planet. Why does that scare the Chinese regime?
  22. Nathan Cool from Vancouver, Canada writes: Tibet should be owned by Tibetans. The flooding of Chinese migrants to the area only proves China's desperate and phony claim to the land.

    Would Mr. Li or the other Chinese agents like to explain the mass murders and monastery razings that were carried out in Tibet? Was that also for the good of Tibetans?

    What about the murdering of Tibetans fleeing the brutal occupation?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPNQHq5-XTQ

    Explain this video Mr. Li.. please.. I dare you to post a comment about that video.
  23. David R from Canada writes: X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: Tim Robinson from United Kingdom writes: Until China admits their policy of extermination and amends it, western opinion will always be with Tibet. The forced sterilization of Tibetan women by China in the 50's and 60's is akin to genocide,
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    The interesting aftermath of this 'extermination' is that the Tibetan population has more than doubled after China took over Tibet. Somehow I think those 'sterilized women' are hardy enough to give births. Maybe we should look for another Virgin Mary out there?

    Mr X.T. how do you get your figure, this populate growth actually from tibetans or from the masses of Chinese that the gov't have forced into Tibet. Tibet has never been part of China and was invaded and taken by the Chinese, and it time the Chinese left. The Japanese use too claim China as well but we all knew that for empire and Tibet is same.
  24. whisse crappy from Canada writes: Nathan Cool "Explain this video Mr. Li.. please.. I dare you to post a comment about that video":
    Please keep your cool.
    To cross an international border is not always a legal,safe and easy thing and most international borders are patrolled with guns. Now Canadian border officers are armed with guns. Let me know what will happen when you dare not to obey the armed officers' order: don't move, or I will......
  25. The Iconoclast from Canada writes: The British invaded and looted Tibet of its cultural treasures before the Chinese. The British occupied and imposed tyrannical rule over Burma for over 100 years. In fact, all the trouble spots in the world - the Balkans, Palestine, Iraq etc. - were the result of imperialistic design and exploitation by the West. So stop this holier-than-thou hypocrisy.
  26. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: David R from Canada writes: X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: Tim Robinson from United Kingdom writes: Until China admits their policy of extermination and amends it, western opinion will always be with Tibet. The forced sterilization of Tibetan women by China in the 50's and 60's is akin to genocide,
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    The interesting aftermath of this 'extermination' is that the Tibetan population has more than doubled after China took over Tibet. Somehow I think those 'sterilized women' are hardy enough to give births. Maybe we should look for another Virgin Mary out there?

    Mr X.T. how do you get your figure, this populate growth actually from tibetans or from the masses of Chinese that the gov't have forced into Tibet. Tibet has never been part of China and was invaded and taken by the Chinese, and it time the Chinese left. The Japanese use too claim China as well but we all knew that for empire and Tibet is same.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    I am talking about TEBETAN population in Xizang, or TAR. After 50 years of 'ethnic cleansing' and 'ethnic dilution' and 'Chinese immigration into Tibet', the population of TAR still comprise 92% of Tibetan nationals. Isn't this odd?

    The tibetan population was about 1.2M in 50s. Now it is over 2 million to say the least.

    Look here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xizang
    I know this is a wiki link, but the data are from the latest census and therefore are the most reliable.
  27. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: George Hall from Canada writes: Tibet definitely does not belong to China..it ws part of the British Empire not that long ago and it is still in dispute.... the Chinese at the very lest need to talk and give autonomy within China..otherwise China will remain ostracized from the greater world
    -----------------------------------------------
    British Empire? How does that colonialism give a country its legitimacy? Was Tibet an empty piece of land without any claim before British took over?

    I know, the British were all for democracy and economic growth. that's why they used gunships to open 'free trade' of good old opium to China.
  28. gordon davies from Victoria B.C., Canada writes: With China throwing its weight around like the U.S.A. , one wonders how long its going to be before the two big bullies taunt each other into some sort of showdown with only one left not wounded .
  29. Anon Imus from Canada writes: All of you arguing based on laughably partial histories miss the point. A people is a people and should have its independence if that is what it wants now. This is, ultimately, what Canada would do if Quebec developed the clear will to leave Canada.

    I agree that the poster Yanxu Li is a Chinese government agent or otherwise a person addled by nationalist egotism. There is no logic in your words. If A offends B, we have to ask whether B is taking offense for their own selfish purposes. And hey, are you asserting that China is not a dictatorship itself?
  30. Wai Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: It seems to me that China is playing a waiting game with the Dalai Lama until he dies or retires. When he does, they will appoint a new Dalai Lama by declaring they had recognized the reborn Avalokiteśvara. This way they will get a more compliant and obedient spiritual leader. Tibet has traditionally been seen a part of China for hundreds of years but only indirectly. The Chinese had their vassal states where the people were granted autonomy in exchange for some tribute and as long they didn't cause trouble. The Chinese would punish miscreants by dispatching large armies and then withdrawing. It was only in 1950 that China took direct control of Tibet. I believe China takes a very inflexible view on Tibet because of the strategic value of the high ground. The last Chinese dynasty ignored Tibet until a British military expedition fought their way into Lhasa in 1904 and forced a treaty on the Tibetans. They also annexed a large piece of Tibetan territory which makes a part of India today. The Sino India war of 1962 started because India began incursions into Tibet to claim more land and to gain influence in Tibet. The Dalai Lama and the exiled Tibetans were covertly funded by the CIA in the 1960s. The United States supplied weapons and supplies to Tibetan resistance groups in the 1960s by airdrops. These actions is probably why China sees any loosening of control of Tibet would mean foreign military forces might arrive.
  31. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: whisse crappy from Canada writes: "To cross an international border is not always a legal,safe and easy thing and most international borders are patrolled with guns."

    You're kidding, right? You seriously don't see the difference between guards that stop people entering a country, and guards that stop people leaving? The soldiers shooting Tibetans in that video (see link below) are Chinese soldiers. The Tibetans are fleeing to India. If you and X.T. and the others defending the Chinese on this board cannot understand how repugnant that is then there is little point engaging in conversation with you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPNQHq5-XTQ
  32. Lu Ye from Halifax, Canada writes: A lot people in the west can not, will not try to understand something in different country and culture. They can never think something from other people's perspective.

    Tibet vs China situation is no different than Kurdish vs Turkey or Chechen vs Russia. But China always be picked on because China is still a so call communist country. So everything in China is evil. Every Chinese is killing Tibet people.

    Maybe not like Canada, China has a long history (5000 years vs 50?). The boarder of China changes over time. Land (not personal freedom) is very important. You have to understand what China goes through to understand better about the situation.
  33. Julien Savoie from Toronto, writes: Lu Ye, are you saying Canada has a history of only 50 years, because you're saying that I think someone needs to refresh their knowledge before taking their citizen test

    All i have to say is that the Dalai Llama speach at Roger's Centre was very good, i'm glad he didn't mention anything about religion or political views
  34. Far East from Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes:
    You're kidding, right? You seriously don't see the difference between guards that stop people entering a country, and guards that stop people leaving? The soldiers shooting Tibetans in that video (see link below) are Chinese soldiers. The Tibetans are fleeing to India. If you and X.T. and the others defending the Chinese on this board cannot understand how repugnant that is then there is little point engaging in conversation with you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPNQHq5-XTQ

    ------

    The same video has been "quoted" many times. Shooting some innocent ppl is absolutely wrong.

    But, hey, who knows what happened before this video had been taken. Are they entering or leaving? nobody knows. Are they plainclothes terrorists? nobody knows. What had happened before the shooting? nobody knows. Maybe they were warned but they would not listen to the soldier (imagine you were caught on US highway and would not leave you hands on the wheel even the police warned you), maybe they were terrorists. I mean, who knows. One thing I know for sure, that's not the PROPER way to cross the border.

    I could find tons of videos on youtube.com about soldiers from US or Canada or other peace making counties shooting Iraq ppl. They are still there and doing the same thing everyday.

    I wanna know who the hell invented guns.
  35. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: Lu Yi, you want us to understand what China goes through. We in turn want you to understand what the Tibetans go through.

    You mention Chechnia and the Kurds. Two points:
    1) You assume you know where people posting here stand on this issue. You don't. I would guess that most people take slightly different views on each of these situations.
    2) For myself, while I support the right of all people to self-determine, I feel particular empathy for those that attempt to achieve this through the difficult but holy path of non-violence, and consequently will put far more effort into supporting them.
  36. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: Far East, the provenence of that footage is pretty clear, as is the dialogue surrounding it. There is no question that those were unarmed Tibetan civilians fleeing from Tibet into India, and that they were gunned down by Chinese troops.
  37. whisse crappy from Canada writes: don't move, or I will shoot!
  38. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes: Far East, the provenence of that footage is pretty clear, as is the dialogue surrounding it. There is no question that those were unarmed Tibetan civilians fleeing from Tibet into India, and that they were gunned down by Chinese troops.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yeah right. A murky video by some hippies. Best partial and unclear story ever.
  39. jamie yavis from New West, Canada writes: Having just came back from Tibet, where I traveled extensively by "for-locals-only" community buses from Lhasa to Tingri (close to Everest) I of course have an opinion on this conversation.

    However, what I saw and witnessed there in a week cannot possibly describe and accurately portray the 1300 year history of China & Tibet; Neither can this knee-jerk journalism from the Globe and Mail.

    I can say that the story is much more complex than what appears at first glance, and challenge anyone to go there and come back with as much sympathy for the Tibetan Buddhist leaders, as they had before going.

    In my personal and quite possible short sighted opinion, because of the shortness of my stay, I would say that China was the best thing that ever happened to Tibet.

  40. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: China invaded Tibet and "stationed troops" there . . . 300 years ago, so THAT means that . . . Tibet "belongs" to China ? HA HA ! Where did you pull THAT justification from ? Oh, wait . . . I think I KNOW where you pulled that one from.
  41. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: Truth is the enemy of COMMUNIST governments (and many others), like the one in China.
  42. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: X.T. I am much more inclined to believe the first hand accounts and video footage of that atrocity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPNQHq5-XTQ), especially given the way China reacts publically to our diplomats and press around such issues, than I am to accept your facile denials.
  43. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes: X.T. I am much more inclined to believe the first hand accounts and video footage of that atrocity
    ----------------------------------
    How do you know this thing is not made up? The video is murky and i can't even tell who is firing. Yes, I can tell there are some bona fide Tibetans in there.
  44. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: "How do you know this thing is not made up? The video is murky and i can't even tell who is firing. Yes, I can tell there are some bona fide Tibetans in there."

    The people orginating the video had no reason to lie. That combined with Chinese actions over the last 50 years rendering it entirely believable. I believe accounts of things from sources I trust even without pictures.
  45. Jigs Karma from Toronto, Canada writes: For the record, there were just one adult and around 25 kids (under 13 yrs) who were trying to cross the border that were shot at. It's scary to think how some of these chinese govt. agents are trying so hard to justify this horrendous act. But what else can we expect from a govt. that tries to run over protestors with Tanks (Tianamen rings a bell?).

    And for jamie who believes "China was the best thing that happened for Tibet", I wonder which places you travelled around. Because, when I travelled to "TAR" (TAR is just a part of Tibet) and other eastern regions (known as Amdo), I really didn't notice any good things for my fellow brothers and sisters. Little Tibetan kids were wasting their lives smoking and hanging around in the streets. Discotheques, "bars"(brothels) filled with young Tibetans can be found in Lhasa.
    And for some of the Chinese people, as a Tibetan, I have to say it is your government and their system that we fight against.
  46. F H from Canada writes: "The Iconoclast from Canada writes: The British invaded and looted Tibet of its cultural treasures before the Chinese. "

    Neither of which is acceptable.

    The beauty of Western Civilization is that we CAN question our leaders and acknowledge and PROTEST the hideous things we've done in the past (and still do today). Sadly, the good people of China, Burma and Tibet don't have that option.
  47. F H from Canada writes: "Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xizang
    I know this is a wiki link, but the data are from the latest census and therefore are the most reliable."

    LOL! NO data from Wikipedia is reliable! What data do you have from respected sources?
  48. F H from Canada writes: "Tibet vs China situation is no different than Kurdish vs Turkey or Chechen vs Russia. But China always be picked on because China is still a so call communist country. So everything in China is evil. Every Chinese is killing Tibet people"

    What are you talking about? If enough people vote to leave Canada in a referendum, they'll be free to do so. All we're asking is that China (and Turkey and Russia) respect the will of the people. And no, we're quite aware of the difference between the Chinese administration and the Chinese people.
  49. F H from Canada writes: "Far East says: I wanna know who invented guns."

    Well, China invented gun powder. Does that help?
  50. M K from Ottawa, Canada writes: I think the vassal state interpretation holds best. Tibet was Chinese like Panama is American. It was a de fecto control versus a de jure control, whereas now it is both.

    X.T., I think the problems stems from the fact that Tibetans are asserting their right to self-determination. We have our own separatists in Canada too, but I don't see Pauline Marois being dragged outside her home and shot. A rational society tries to manage feelings of regional alienation by compromise. An irrational society uses violence to solve the problem, ignorant of the fact that it simply radicalizes the opposition.
  51. allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: The only thing the dali llama wants is to restore the elitist aristocracy that existed there previously, not deomocracy. The usa and canada only want to tear apart china their arch enemy so appearing to look as they are friends of the dolly LLama is for appearances only. so phoney anyone with half a brain can see through it.
  52. allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: Mr. Justice from Canada writes: Truth is the enemy of COMMUNIST governments (and many others), like the one in China.

    YOU wouldnt know "truth" even if an apple fell on your head in the process.
  53. allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: yanxu li, i would advise you to learn the difference between revered religious leaders and dictators. they are not the same thing

    You mean like ossama bin laden?
  54. allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: F H from Canada writes:
    Tibet was last British Territory (not Chinese) until the 50's when China started their massacre of the Tibetans, destroying their temples and holy writings, stealing their land and resources and installing a puppet government. NONE of this makes Tibet theirs while the Tibetans consider themselves seperate and independant of their invading forces.

    The good Llama has offered a middle way in which Tibet has autonomy. Why is China so terrified of a reasonable compromise? Why does he terrify some of you so much? Diplomacy, human rights, freedom of religion, etc. are all things that help EVERYONE on the planet. Why does that scare the Chinese regime?

    Interesting that tibet was once british terrortory, now the good dolly LLama only wants a reasonable compromise with china, all of tibet restored to his form of aristocracy, what does this have to do with freedom of religion? what religion? what human rights?

  55. whisse crappy from Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: "Far East says: I wanna know who invented guns." Well, China invented gun powder. Does that help?

    Well, China did that to make beatiful fireworks now enjoyed here in cottage country. Hope that helps.
  56. Yanxu Li from Canada writes: I feel funny when people challenged my comments on Dalai Rama, but never seem willing to challenge Dalai Rama. I am not sure whether it is because of the power of religion or doctrine. Seems to me those are brainstormed by a kind of belief under a dictatorship.

    Hee...they are only my comments on a political show of Dalai Rama! Not my political show! What are you guys thinking about?

    Is that political show really helpful for Tibetan? Will it help Tibetans to gain sympathy from 1.3 billion Chinese people there? I doubt it.

    For those who don't like my comments. It is your freedom not to like them. But if you guys are arrogant enough not to think, not to listen to people like me, how would you get my understanding and my support?

    And if you are racist enough to call me Chinese, or skeptical enough to call me an agent of China, that is your freedom. Who cares those who speak without thinking.
  57. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: Yanxu Li from Canada writes: "Is that political show really helpful for Tibetan? Will it help Tibetans to gain sympathy from 1.3 billion Chinese people there? I doubt it."

    Actually, the opinions of 1.3 billion Chinese don't seem to count for much in China. The opinion of a few dozen high government officials are what sets the agenda, and the policy. To democrates this is pretty frightening.
  58. Brian V from Canada writes: Far East: You are full of s---t!
  59. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: "Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xizang
    I know this is a wiki link, but the data are from the latest census and therefore are the most reliable."

    LOL! NO data from Wikipedia is reliable! What data do you have from respected sources?
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Can you read? Those data are from the latest census, i.e. the numbers from National Bureau of Statusitics. If you think that is not reliable enough, then there is simply NO reliable source for these numbers.

    The only reason that I did not provide you with the orginal sources, is that I do not think you can read Chinese.

    Maybe you can go home and spend next 10 years to learn Chinese and come back. Then I will provide you with sources written in orginal language.
  60. whisse crappy from Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada: “Actually, the opinions of 1.3 billion Chinese don't seem to count for much in China. The opinion of a few dozen high government officials are what sets the agenda, and the policy.&8221;

    Sovereignty is often non- politika and non-partisan in any country. In fact, as many as some of the 1.3 billion hated the one-party rule, the anti-secession stand taken by the ruling party adds to its legitimacy. Should the communist party do otherwise, it will be thrown out of power in no time.
    It is dismal but reality. His Holiness Lama got it, but, this makes him a less playful card. So as the tile of this article suggested,
    be ready to discard the Lama after golden medal and red carpet,

    let&8217;s throw flame among the Tibetan kids.
  61. vic w from Canada writes: I wonder what we were doing the Native Canadians in the 50's and 60's
  62. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: M K from Ottawa, Canada writes: I think the vassal state interpretation holds best. Tibet was Chinese like Panama is American. It was a de fecto control versus a de jure control, whereas now it is both.

    X.T., I think the problems stems from the fact that Tibetans are asserting their right to self-determination.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Not really.

    Tibet IS territory of China. The truth is, the previous system of ruling under Dalai and Panchen, is an invention of Qing Dynasty. The so-called call for self-determination is simply some media hype from the West. From my own experience post 1989, I see those 'exiles' of every type most likely do not represent what those people inside the country, but represent their own interests or the guy who pays them. Chalabi is a good example of this. And current iraqi government.
  63. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: China is run by a Communist thugocracy. If that bit of truth "offends" someone, TOO BAD.
  64. James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: "allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: yanxu li, i would advise you to learn the difference between revered religious leaders and dictators. they are not the same thing

    You mean like ossama bin laden?"

    ----------

    osama bin laden is not the recognized leader of a major world religion. the dalai lama is. and equating the dalai lama with osama bin laden is foolish to the extreme. i hope i have cleared that up for you somewhat.
  65. whisse crappy from Canada writes: Mr. Justice from Canada writes: China is run by a Communist thugocracy. If that bit of truth "offends" someone, TOO BAD
    China is run by a Communist party, one party ruling. I agree. This dose not offend me.("Thug" or not, look south of the border in the scorched house and you will know.)
    But denying the fact that Tibet IS territory of China (communism or not) offends any kind of Justice from anywhere and I doubt that act upon this will do us Canadian any good.
    e.g. Dermot Travis, executive director of the Canada-Tibet Committee, said he noticed that Bombardier yesterday was awarded a $590-million deal in China to supply rail cars to China. So go head.
    Would any of the elite corporate or government guys mention in public that the rail cars will be made in Bombardier’s joint-venture manufactory in China by Chinese auto workers???
  66. name user from Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: "
    Simply stating you own something doesn't mean you ACTUALLY own something. For example, I can state I own China. Doesn't make it true though, does it?

    You are ridiculous! If that was the case, have you ever heard a fight between China and British Empire in the 1950s for Tibet, when China liberated Tibet?

    There was a brief history that British wanted to occupy Tibet, but FAILED. No wonder so many decedents of her majesty in this continent keep whining that China invaded Tibet. Keep crying, but won't help.
  67. Brian V from Canada writes: As someone has stated: From my own experience post 1989, I see those 'exiles' of every type most likely do not represent what those people inside the country, but represent their own interests or the guy who pays them. Chalabi is a good example of this. And current iraqi government. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    There is no Logic in the above.

    Anyway, Tibet now, is a part of China. It is too late to argue otherwise without more bloodshed. The Dalai Lama, does not want to separate from China, as he has no choise, the Chinese have made sure of that with the massive influx of Han Chinese into the territory. On a side note, the population growth there is because of this influx, whatever someone else wants to believe. I dont buy it.

    Can the Chinese govnt discuss with the respected worldwide, Dalai Lama what he has to offer for his people and come to some sort of a mutual understanding, as it stands at present? NOT what history dictates.

    China is for a Harmonised Society, as Mr. Hu has proclaimed, can this talk with the Dalai Lama not improve that Harmonisation, with little ill effect to China as a whole but in fact improve Chinas standing?

    Something to think about!
  68. name user from Canada writes: China invaded Tibet and "stationed troops" there . . . 300 years ago, so THAT means that . . . Tibet "belongs" to China ? HA HA ! Where did you pull THAT justification from ? Oh, wait . . . I think I KNOW where you pulled that one from.

    If that's not enough to prove that Tibet belongs to China 300 years ago, how can you prove that this land does not belong to Indians?
  69. name user from Canada writes: M K from Ottawa, Canada writes:
    X.T., I think the problems stems from the fact that Tibetans are asserting their right to self-determination. We have our own separatists in Canada too, but I don't see Pauline Marois being dragged outside her home and shot. A rational society tries to manage feelings of regional alienation by compromise. An irrational society uses violence to solve the problem, ignorant of the fact that it simply radicalizes the opposition.

    Remind you Tibetens don't want to separate from China. Only tiny fraction of Tibetens exiled to other countries want Tibet separate from China, so that they can return and hold back the privilege they used to have to reestablish the slavery system in Tibet.
  70. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user, I think you need to explain how you see the situation of First Nations of Canada being in any way comparable to the situation of Tibetans, in or outside of Tibet. It seems to me the differences are far greater than any similarities, and that comparing the two doesn't strengthen any argument whatsoever.
  71. F H from Canada writes: "All American writes: so phoney anyone with half a brain can see through it. "

    Only someone with half a brain would think that.
  72. name user from Canada writes: Mr. Justice from Canada writes: China is run by a Communist thugocracy. If that bit of truth "offends" someone, TOO BAD.

    Too bad, Canada governs the thugocracy like you.!
  73. F H from Canada writes: "Yanxzu Li writes: For those who don't like my comments. It is your freedom not to like them. But if you guys are arrogant enough not to think, not to listen to people like me, how would you get my understanding and my support?"

    I agree that it's peoples freedom not to like it but it's also your freedom to write it and I, for one, hope you keep on writing.

    We may well learn from you but at the same time, you may learn from some of us.
  74. name user from Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user, I think you need to explain how you see the situation of First Nations of Canada being in any way comparable to the situation of Tibetans, in or outside of Tibet. It seems to me the differences are far greater than any similarities, and that comparing the two doesn't strengthen any argument whatsoever.

    You are right, it's too different. In fact, the situation is much worse here. Why do first nation people have to stay in such frigid Arctic circle?
  75. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user from Canada writes: "Why do first nation people have to stay in such frigid Arctic circle?"

    They don't have to.
  76. F H from Canada writes: They don't have to. They can move whenever and to wherever they want. Do Tibetans have that freedom?
  77. name user from Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: They don't have to. They can move whenever and to wherever they want. Do Tibetans have that freedom?

    Sure they can move if they want. You will see Tibetans in many Chinese cities selling their local products. Tibetans are not limited to Tibet, but also in neighboring provinces. Tibet becomes a hot spot because some external forces want to take it.
  78. Anon Imus from Canada writes: Like pretty much every globe debate online, this one stalls at the unbridgeable divide between those who are reasonable and well-informed and make full use of our rational and critical human capacities (and of the spell-checker) vs people who don't (e.g. "name user," "whisse crappy," "X.T." and "allcanadian allamerican").
  79. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user, I'm not sure what your point is except that you support the Chinese dictatorship.
  80. whisse crappy from Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user from Canada writes: "Why do first nation people have to stay in such frigid Arctic circle?"
    They don't have to.
    F H from Canada writes: Do Tibetans have that freedom?

    Don’t think it&8217;s a good comparison because
    1. UN&8217;s recent condemnation on Canada&8217;s aboriginal people treatment.
    2. Most of the real aboriginal population has been killed by Europeans
    and the disease brought in, while most Tibetans survived.
    3. Now the residual Indians left, so few, in the barren &8220;reserves&8221; treated with &8220;boarding school&8221;, alcohol and the highest suicide rate (how hopeful they are!)
    They make no big noise now.
    4. Are you guys ready to pack up to go back to Europe and give the land back to the rightful owner aboriginal American?
  81. whisse crappy from Canada writes: Anon Imus from Canada writes: Like pretty much every globe debate online, this one stalls at the unbridgeable divide between those who are reasonable and well-informed and make full use of our rational and critical human capacities (and of the spell-checker) vs people who don't (e.g. "name user," "whisse crappy," "X.T." and "allcanadian allamerican").

    Please point out which points in my post are not "full use of our rational and critical human capacities" ?
  82. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: whisse crappy from Canada writes: "Are you guys ready to pack up to go back to Europe "

    If you're from Canada, as your name indicates, are you also ready to return to the land of your ancestry? If you're First Nations (which I doubt), then why are you arguing against the Tibetan cause?

    Two salient differences are:
    1) There are no exiled First Nations leaders
    2) First Nations peoples can and do participate in and criticize the Canadian government

    When the Chinese government allows the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet and live as a free man while fighting for the rights of Tibetans, as First Nations leaders do in Canada, then we will be talking about situations that may be comparable.
  83. name user from Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user, I'm not sure what your point is except that you support the Chinese dictatorship.

    What do you know other than "dictatorship"?
  84. name user from Canada writes: Ted Harrison from Canada writes:

    Two salient differences are:
    1) There are no exiled First Nations leaders
    2) First Nations peoples can and do participate in and criticize the Canadian government

    Than what? First Nation people are still poor, and their land is still being taken away. Tibetans' life in China are much improved than ever. Dalai Lama and their associates can only make Tibet's situation worse.
  85. Far East from Canada writes: Brian V from Canada writes: Far East: You are full of s---t!

    ---
    Thanks buddy. I figured out s---t = smart if you know how to count. :-)
  86. Ted Harrison from Canada writes: name user, what do you mean by

    - "What do you know other than "dictatorship"? "

    and by

    "Than what?"

    ?
  87. James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: "name user from Canada writes: Than what? First Nation people are still poor, and their land is still being taken away. Tibetans' life in China are much improved than ever. Dalai Lama and their associates can only make Tibet's situation worse."

    ----------

    if you've been reading this newspaper, you'd know that land is now being RETURNED to the native people, not taken away. the Tsawwassen band just signed a new deal with the government lst month, for one. they are also being given resource rights, and capital to maintain and improve their land and infrastructure. returning the land is a slow process but its being worked out. further, most canadians recognize the fact we need to give some of the land back. thats a huge difference from the analogy you're trying to make between native canadians and tibet.

    here's a question for those who oppose the dalai lama: he has given up his independence aspirations for tibet, now he is only advocating more cultural autonomy for tibet WITHIN china. it would seem to me that it would be to the advantage of both tibetans and the chinese leadership to 1. allow the dalai lama to return to china, 2. accommodate the request for more autonomy, which would likely lead to 3. the dalai lama and tibet would be out of the news and china might not have to deal with the dalai lama making these overseas visits to gain support for his NEW (new for at least 20 years now) position of cultural autonomy, and not independence.

    now my question: why is beijing still referring to him as a "separatist" when he has long ago given up this idea, and why wont beijing allow him to return and live in a tibet with more cultural autonomy?
  88. allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: If you have so much faith in the dali LLama let him run for prime minister of canada, let him set up a buddhist aristocracy here and have him dictate what to think and what to do, see how far that goes. Not far Im sure, so why should it anywhere else?
  89. James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: i think i know the answer to my question...
  90. whisse crappy from Canada writes: Easy, easy, everybody. Why return to the ancestry land? You think to killed most of the aboriginals and grab their land is easy ? No. I stay. And you, go? Two salient differences are: 1) There are no exiled First Nations leaders because there was not many people left and no CIAs secret operations as was with His Holiness in the 50s. 2) The almost extinct First Nations peoples can and do participate in and criticize the Canadian government and please, read the recent UN condemnation on Canadas treatment on Aboriginals. I am not a big fun for any dictatorship and I dont think Chinese people (including Tibetan )enjoys the full democratic rights under communist rule. But, when His Holiness is talking about Tibet within China, I feel strongly the authors treat him like a less useful card and cannot wait to throw the flame among the Tibetan kids. I wonder where did your guys get your knowledge about Tibet. I read a book or two so prove me wrong (surely I might be wrong) by putting your arguments out instead of naming names and ancestry land. P.S. if land is now being RETURNED to the native people, then where the heck we are now standing on? Then we should be packing up for the steamship back to Europe now. That is serious kidding. James Dude.
  91. James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong, China writes: "whisse crappy from Canada writes: Then we should be packing up for the steamship back to Europe now. That is serious kidding. James Dude."

    ----------

    thank you whisse crappy.... dude. but i believe your steamship might be heading in a different direction than mine.
  92. X. T. from Waterloo, Canada writes: James C. from Shenzhen, Guangdong:
    I don't think this site provides the length to go through your points. Since you are currently living in China, why don't you go there and check it out? Just witness that 'ethnic cleansing', that 'force sterilization of femal Tebetans', and that 'ethnic dilution' first hand and cme back to tell the story.

    Also, I believe you also need to do some serious research on Tibet's history, instead of reading the cow pie from this newspaper or the Communist propaganda.

    I suggest one trip to what used to be Kham, called Jiuzhaogou. And then going to Xizang and see for yourself. Trust me it will be fun.