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Family Feud: My mom's started saying grace at dinner but the rest of us don't believe in God

MICAH TOUB

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 10:35 AM EDT 27/11/07

Should we do it anyway? ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: If it's your mom's house, you ought to respect her and do as she wishes. If it's your house, she ought to reciprocate that respect (she can always pray silently before the meal). It's beyond me why a person needs an advice columnist to help them come to this conclusion.
  2. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Even though religion does seem to be making a comeback these days (see current U.S. president), it's still easier and even hip to be a cynic and make fun of believers, apparently even if they are your own mother.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bush is using religion for political purposes; don't take him seriously.
    AFTER IRAQ, I WONDERED IF HE HAD READ THE BEATITUDES
    Allow Mum to say grace by herself. Carry on quietly with your dinner and don't let it get cold. Talk quietly among yourselves if necessary.
    Opposition will likely strengthen her determination and anyway religious belief is a personal thing. If you don't believe in God don't join in in any way as that would be hypocracy.
    CYMRO
  3. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: No big deal, just sit there and be respectful of your mom's beliefs in saying grace, no matter what version of God she likes (many versions to choose from, after all). . . . if she ASKS you to give your opinion as to what your own views on various religious beliefs are (or if the subject comes up in conversation), then by all means give her your opinion; if she doesn't like your opinion, then . . . life will go on somehow. Everyone has the right to one's own opinion, after all, on this particular subject or anything else.
  4. Daria Kathnelson from Ottawa, Canada writes: I agree with Mr. Jusice -you are entitled to your own opinion and shouldn't feel obliged to agree or say grace with your mother, just because she thinks that way. While your mother recites 'grace,' you can simply sit there and listen respectfully.
  5. Phillip Patriotic from Homeandhearth, Canada writes: I find that as my parents aged, they became (more) religious: attending church, praying before a meal, etc.

    My siblings and I (as well as our spouses) do not consider ourselves to be religious but we respect our dear parents' wishes and have no qualms about 'giving thanks' when visiting them.
    Incidently, my parents do not pray when they visit our homes, but I don't think that we'd have an issue with it even if they did. Really, what harm is it doing?

    The issue is not about religion but about respect, something that certain members of the family featured in this article should learn.
  6. Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: Phillip Patriotic from Homeandhearth, Canada writes: The issue is not about religion but about respect, something that certain members of the family featured in this article should learn.

    That is 100% on the money. Nothing further needs said.
  7. CD W from Canada writes: I love it, the grand dame of atheism that taught you twits that there is no God, now is thrashing your whole upbringing because she woke up. Here is a homily for you;

    'Those who intend to seek God at the 11th hour, tend to die around 10:30'

    She has chosen 10:00, what time are you going to choose?
  8. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: And remember, there are LOTS of versions of God (we call this 'sectarianism') to choose from . . . people who pretend that they 'know' the identity of the 'true' one are simply revealing their own psychological deficits.
  9. Fugget About It from Canada writes: Phillip Patriotic & Beleaguered Middle-Class.........

    So if your respectful spouses or loved ones became Mormon or Jehovah Witness all of sudden where the teachings are rather different than traditional religion and they wanted you to join them, would you do it out of respect?

    One does not have to do what they do not believe in just out of respect for someone. If I don't feel right doing something then I do not do it and if it hurts or bothers someone then too bad. I do not have to conform (nor does anyone else) to something I do not feel comfortable doing.

    Your respected loved one should have enough understanding to know that they cannot push someone into something they are not comfortable with.
  10. Riel Canadian from Canada writes: SO, it seems that your atheists are narrow-minded simpeltons.
    I don't believe in atheists they simply don't exist.
    Just some people who are deluding themselves into believing that they know things that they could not possibly know.
  11. James Thomas from Halifax, Canada writes: Why doesn't the mother show respect to the non-believers and keep the hell quiet? Respect is a two way street!
  12. Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: Fugget About it: Obviously you didn't get the point so there would be no sense preaching to you about it. See you on the other side. Loudmouth.
  13. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: Riel: Remember the best definition of 'atheist'-- someone who disagrees with you on theology. . . . Anyway, hang in their being silent during the time that she wants to say grace: Catholic grace, Jehovah's Witness grace, Baptist grace, Druid grace, Mormon grace, Muslim grace, Anglican grace, Hindu grace, UCC grace . . . whatever it is.
  14. Hydrogen Bob from Toronto, Canada writes: A moment of silence by the family while mom says a prayer before they eat a family dinner. Think of your collective politeness, respect and silence as a sign of gratitude to your mom. You may not believe in God, but you all must appreciate your mother's contributions to the family. Show it to her by respecting this one thing.
  15. Hugh McNeil from Canada writes: Perhaps the family members could ask for a moment of silent reflection instead of grace. Those who pray can then do so, albeit silently, and the others can meditate for a moment.
  16. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    You can't shut up for 10seconds out of respect for your mom? What a bunch of self centred brats.
  17. B C from Toronto, Canada writes: Insane superstition needs to be called for what it is. Giving a respectful silence will only condone the behaviour.
  18. Tim Abbotson from Canada writes: Really?

    And what if the mother was praying to the easter bunny or santa claus or satan. The only difference between these imaginary beings and god is that ... well, nothing. Would you now afford her the same respect? Of course you wouldn't.

    Religion gets to much respect without ever having earned it and the mother deserves to hear every bit of giggling and sniggering her family and friends can muster.
  19. martina white from St. John's, Canada writes: I am a non christian. I do not say grace and I would not participate in saying grace to mollify someone else. That being said, I would be more than willing to sit @ a table w/someone who wants to say grace themselves. I think I can wait 15 seconds to start eating. My main issue w/ christianity is its lack of tolerence, especially for other faiths/spiritual paths. It would be hypercritical for me to complain about lack of tolerence and then to do the same myself.
  20. Phillip Patriotic from Homeandhearth, Canada writes: Fugget About It from Canada:

    I don't consider respect to include making fun of others' beliefs, but then again, I may have been reared differently from you.
    Also, respect does not necessarily mean conformity.

    As for your question about following non-traditional religions, if I am visiting my parents, then yes, I would follow their beliefs, and they in turn follow mine when in my home.
    I value the time that I have left with my folks to not let such a minor issue affect our time together (especially if it makes them happy).

    If it bothers you so much, then you should have no problem telling your parents that you will either a) not be respecting their wishes or b) you will not be visiting them in their home. Either way, I think you've both lost out.
  21. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: Aren't 'deathbed conversions' a fairly common phenomenon? As human beings get older they tend to become more anxious about their own mortality

    This in no way changes the fact that religion is a fiction designed specifically to assuage this anxiety. However, I would never enable a friend or family member in making the sort of moral and intellectual compromise that religion represents. We should endeavor to be stronger and wiser, and leave religion in the past where it belongs.

    In contrast to some of the naive formulations posted above, real atheism is not a belief. It is simply the realization that the questions that religion purports to answer are nonsensical, and that the terms are undefined. Thus, the 'correct' atheistic answer to the question 'Do you believe in God?' is not 'No,' but rather 'What are you talking about? What is God?'

    Chop wood, carry water.
  22. Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: martina white from St. John's, Canada writes: I think I can wait 15 seconds to start eating. My main issue w/ christianity is its lack of tolerence, especially for other faiths/spiritual paths. It would be hypercritical for me to complain about lack of tolerence and then to do the same myself.

    To each their own, quite gracious! Others on this forum should take note of your comments, and reflect on their own positions again.
  23. Hugh McNeil from Canada writes: Riel Canadian, some of us who don't believe in prayer may or may not believe in God. I am quite certain from all the historical evidence, that if God does exist, he she or it absolutely doesn't care a whit about us. This appears to be true to the degree that if a God is watching us, it is with the same interest you might watch a pitbull fight with. Riel Canadian, you suggest we can know nothing about a God if such a thing exists.... so how can you? Because of a book written by second century story tellers relating folk tales hundreds of years old?
  24. Boomer AB from Canada writes: Personally, when I am in public or in the home of someone who doesn't share my faith (Catholic) I pray in silence before I eat. Most people are respectfull and wait till I'm done before starting. If I'm with my family we all sit in silence and pray. Most people respect my right to believe what I believe, I respect their right to believe something different. I don't attempt to make them join me; if they want to they can but I don't do anything to make them feel pressured. I've had some people react negatively. I just asked them how exactly me sitting in silence with my head down offends them in any way. They backed off fairly quickly. Incidently, I find that the people who claim to be the most unbigoted react the mostly harshly. I guess for some people tolerance is a fickle thing.
  25. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Interesting.

    Sean from Toronto has decided to spew his own personal belief that religious beliefs are a 'mental illness', specifically, a delusion.

    Where did that personal belief of Sean come from? Did the flying spaghetti monster flying over Torontgo whisper that fanciful information to him?

    Sean is welcome to read through the diagnostic manuals used by psychiatrists and other medical doctors: He will find that he is factually wrong, that to believe religiously is categorized neither as a mental illness nor as a delusion.
  26. Mike L. from Canada writes: Phillip Patriotic from Homeandhearth, Canada writes: 'Incidently, my parents do not pray when they visit our homes, but I don't think that we'd have an issue with it even if they did. Really, what harm is it doing?'

    I think you may be surprised to learn that they do pray when they visit your homes.

    They just do so silently, no doubt out of respect for you. In fact they may even be praying for you. I would be surprised if they aren't.

    I find the best Christian evangelization happens by leading a life of quiet example, not shouting it off the rooftops or rubbing non-believers noses in it. Your parents appear to have figured this out.
  27. Carey K from Canada writes: Cranky middle-aged guy story of the day. I was on my way to work this morning, riding the subway. I noticed a LDS missionary on the car going from person to person. He came up to me to ask me what I knew about the Book of Mormon. I got PO'ed with him and told him that if he didn't stop solicting I would report him to the conductor. He claimed he wasn't solicting. I pointed out that he was attempting to sell me his religion and that TTC patrons have a right to be free from religious proselytizing. He wasn't very happy about this but he stopped this behavior until I got off the car. I am really tired of having religion in public spaces -- it's a pet peeve. Anyways, I let him upset me when I should have just ignored him. I guess forgot to put on my happy face today.
  28. S Phillips from Canada writes: 'For what we are about to receive may we be thankful and ever mindfull of the needs of other, Amen'

    I am not religious but my wife's parents are. When we get together for dinner I have no problem bowing my head and sharing in this statement. You do not have to believe in a higher being to believe that there might be value in saying these words.
  29. Helen Highwater from Qualicum Beach, Canada writes: There are lots of excellent graces that don't even mention God. Perhaps this person could find some that give thanks for the food, thanks for the farmers, thanks for the soil and water, thanks for the seeds, thanks for all the other people who made it possible for the food to be on the table. They probably had more to do with it than God did anyway. Then the mother could say a grace that had meaning for everyone at the table, not just for her.
  30. Fugget About It from Victoria, Canada writes: The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    You can't shut up for 10seconds out of respect for your mom? What a bunch of self centred brats.

    Talk about self-centered.

    Beleaguered Middle-Class from Canada writes: Fugget About it: Obviously you didn't get the point so there would be no sense preaching to you about it. See you on the other side. Loudmouth.

    No, please do not preach to me. There is no other side.

    Phillip Patriotic from Homeandhearth, Canada....

    No, I do not have a problem telling people what I think. It does get in the bad books but whatever. Don't push your crap on me.
  31. Do Good from United States writes: .

    Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: '... GEORGE FREAKING BUSH!!! ...'
    .

    Tyler Williams,

    G&M is about Canada, Canadians and all having a right to freedom of expression (except those whom they wish to censor). You got a problem with that, take it up with someone who might care - like your 'GEORGE FREAKING BUSH!!!' You appear to have as much respect for humanity as your slaughtering neo-con godfather. Stop your immature ranting. If you don't like the paper or the writers, please stop reading it and get of the boards.
    .
  32. Steve Not an Alberta Redneck from Calgary, Canada writes: Carey K from Canada writes: 'I am really tired of having religion in public spaces -- it's a pet peeve. Anyways, I let him upset me when I should have just ignored him. I guess forgot to put on my happy face today.'

    I'm with you. Promoting Ponzi schemes and multilevel marketing should be illegal.
  33. Fugget About It from Victoria, Canada writes: Oh and it's called boundries, use them.
  34. former farmboy from Canada writes: The responses to this article seem to indicate my previouly-found and (newly-reinforced) observations: the athiests among us are the intolerant ones -'How could someone 'dare' believe in God when I don't...' is the mantra of those who seem to have it all figured out.

    Respect your mother and shut your pie hole for 10 seconds or so - this does not mean agreement and it shows some tolerance, which is supposed to be a strong suit in our multicultural, 'tolerant' world...
  35. Shamus M from Canada writes: 'The issue is not about religion but about respect' Thank you for being a voice of reason. Personally I do not like institutional religion, but I am religious. Each of us has views and beliefs that others do not share and yet we have to live and work with each other. So long as no one is asking me to give up my beliefs then I have no issue with them practicing their beliefs. Live and let live. Of course not all people practice this credo, religious or not, and there is a problem.
  36. Jim OKeefe from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm not religious, but I follow the golden rule - do unto others as I'd have done unto me. As I would expect others to be tolerant of my beliefs, so I will tolerate the belief of others, provided of course it is a policy of live and let live. I would not support Nazi's or fundamentalists of any stripe because they don't follow it (which is why I don't support the so-called platinum law - do unto others as they would have done unto them - a very insideous and hideous rule - imagine doing so to Paul Bernardo or Osama Bin Laden). I have no doubt that many of the extremely intolerant people here decry fundamentalist Islam because it preaches intolerance towards others of different faiths, when they themselves are intollerant of any faith. Start the witch hunt boys and girls, start the bonfires and don your white cloaks and lets purge the world. Intolerant ba$tards make me sick.
  37. James Gill from Vancouver, Canada writes: For those who are atheist, or who choose not to offer a prayer before a meal (or after, depending upon your religious practice), consider the value of a moment of quiet reflection.

    While others take the opportunity to offer a prayer, take a moment to consider the situation of those who cannot afford to feed themselves and their families properly. You don't have to believe in God to appreciate your good fortune and to resolve to do something to alleviate others' misfortune.
  38. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Wow, the board is going in to full censorship mode today.

    Multiple of my posts have been deleted, apparently because censorship-happy readers are complaining about them and requesting that they be deleted.

    My post of around 11:55 was deleted within minutes, where I pointed out the irony in the 11:36 post from 'Do Good' who, whilst praising widespread free speech, suggested that I personally 'get off the boards'!
  39. Simply Red from Canada writes: Wow... way to get people wound up -- ask them a question about religion. There's nothing wrong with stopping to reflect on reasons why you should be thankful for your many gifts in life. Or for the meal, or for your mother. Thirty seconds spent in quiet contemplation of bounty won't kill/hurt anybody. This family can discuss their reasons for not believing at the appropriate time -- which is NOT while Mom is about to pray. When I stay with my husband's family, I go to church with them, even though they're a different religion than me. It's a family ritual, it only takes an hour out of my day, and it makes them so pleased. They're under no illusion that I'm going to convert -- my husband and I made that very clear before marriage -- but it's the least I can do to show my appreciation for two terrific in-laws. We always have a lively discussion about the quality of the preaching etc. after the service. In the same way, my husband and I alternate houses of worship on Christmas and Easter -- one year his, next year mine. The result is that we're welcome when we appear at each other's church. It's really just respect -- an important ingredient in all relationships -- whether parent-child, spousal or otherwise. I suspect this family has forgotten to respect their mother -- they wouldn't talk this way to co-workers, would they? Then why is it okay to behave thus to their mother?
  40. Simply Red from Canada writes: Oh, and Tyler Williams -- the Globe may have used George Bush as an example of a hypocrite because he has used religion as a smokescreen for so many of his more unsavoury activities (war, rendition, fake mission accomplished, 'God bless America') that many people are uncomfortable around those who profess faith now.
    I suspect many Canadians prefer a leader who keeps his/her relgiion to himself/herself.... instead of using it as a shield against those who would question his/her judgment.
  41. Clara Bayliss from Canada writes: I also see this as an issue of respect. If mum had decided to stop eating meat, would the family mock her and put steak on her plate?
    I don't necessarily see this as a religious problem, but one of faith. We all have faith in something, we all send out small 'prayers' every day; to the car (please please start, it's -30) to the neighbour's dog (please please stop barking). So mum wants to send out a message of thanks before she eats, so what? A moment of silent contemplation is a good thing, and a way to centre yourself before you eat. What you personally decide to contemplate is your own business.
  42. Do Good from United States writes: .

    Tyler Williams,

    The G&M and it's boards are it's home. Let's get you to think intelligently here. If someone came to your home and started to insult/attack you, would you not ask him to leave? In doing so, you would have censored him because his behavior was unacceptable to you. Your comments while not welcome on G&M may be more accepted in another house/media that prefers to give a platform to your kind. Your rather viscous comments and tone do not promote free and reasonable discussion of the actual issues in a philosophical and intelligent manner, on this board. Can you understand this? So stop your immature ranting. If you don't like the paper or the writers, please stop reading it and get of the boards.
    .
  43. Fugget About It from Victoria, Canada writes: Tyler Williams is not American.
  44. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Well, this board would probably appear quite familiar to George Orwell.

    Let's see, a total of four of my posts have been deleted by the censorship-happy folks.

    One of my posts post simply commented on the question of tolerance regarding two posts (10:50 and 10:51) - apparently readers are not allowed to read it.

    Another of my posts commented, ironically, on the 'wish to censor' comment in the 11:36 post. That post of mine has been deleted.

    The other commentary, that apparently readers are also not allowed to read since it has been deleted twice, questioned a Bush comment in the article. (Amusingly, readers are allowed, however, to read two posts criticizing that commentary of mine!)

    Well, it looks like the censorship-happy folks definitely got their way on this board today. You folks go bake yourselves a George Orwell cake and enjoy, and remember your own clear message - why debate when you can censor instead!

  45. BEN DOVER from WESTERN CANADA, Canada writes: Bow your head. Shut up and eat your dinner. And be thankful!
  46. Matt Toma from Vancouver, Canada writes: Tolerance and respect cuts both ways. Those with religous beliefs that feel the need to express them should not expect those without them to do the same.

    Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. Now I wish someone would tell that to the people that feel the need to knock and my door and tell my that they can save my from my sins.
  47. Tommy Atkins from Canada writes: As G.K. Chesterton said: If there were no God, there would be no Atheists.
  48. John Silverman from Canada writes: I'm an athiest but in this situation, which I do find myself sometimes, you show respect and bow your head in silence. No one said you have to pray, but honour your mother at least.

    Besides, since I complain about the interolerance of religion, I'd be hypocrit if I didn't show at least some tolerance to religion itself. Lead by example I say. Though the key word here is 'some'.
  49. Rick Sieb from Edmonton, Canada writes: Everyone believes in God or they wouldn't be able to tolerate life.
  50. Sean L. from Toronto, Canada writes: John Silverman, as an athiest, I would normanlly agree with you. When I am in the home of religious people, I go through the motions of observing their traditions.

    However this is clearly not the case this article is talking about. This family has been living together for years as agnostics, and as described by her child, the mother has undergone a sudden change in her beliefs and behaviors.

    There is more to this than just social nicieties to be observed, her CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR, first merits some investigation by her familiy to ensure that there are no underlying problems which have been the catalyst of this change.

    The child percieves there is a problem, but does not know how to handle it. Ignoring it, mocking it, or facilitating it are all equally poor approaches.
  51. Ken Cowan from Paris, France writes: As someone said, respect is a two-way street. I do not think that the rest of the family should mock their mother, but I also don't see why the mother feels that grace has to be said out loud. Silent prayer is , I suppose, just as effective as prayer spoken out loud. So while the rest of the family digs in, the mother can still say a prayer in her head before eating. Otherwise, asking everyone else to be quiet while she says grace out loud is foisting her belief onto the rest of the family; They are obviously not interested in hearing such nonsense - so why should they be subjected to it?
  52. Carey K from Canada writes: I'm not religious but I am spiritual. I think that most Canadians have a lot to be thankful for even if one doesn't believe in an omnipotent deity. I guess one can have a moment of silence just to reflect upon one's good fortune for living in this great country. Being grateful doesn't have to be about religion or God.
  53. Sask Langer from Canada writes: Congratulations, Sean L. You read a book by Richard Dawkins. A whole book. Yay for you.

    It's not hard to close your eyes for 30 seconds and listen to what someone else says. If anything, you'll learn a bit about this 'Religion' thing, which I gather is important to a few people. And if that offends you, then you're too sensitive.

    From now on I'll just list 'casual observer' when someone asks my religion, since atheists are now just as annoying as the hard-line religious.
  54. Do Good from United States writes: .

    Matt Toma from Vancouver, Canada writes: Tolerance and respect cuts both ways. Those with religous beliefs that feel the need to express them should not expect those without them to do the same.

    Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. Now I wish someone would tell that to the people that feel the need to knock and my door and tell my that they can save my from my sins.

    -----------------------

    Matt Toma,

    You are right. Humanity, regardless of beliefs, needs to be tolerant and respectful with all. Individual or group freedom however, should not include harming or hurting others or humanity. Religions are capable of both good and harm through their collective cult, and are unproven beliefs and rituals bound with prejudice and fear. It is the biggest hurdle to humanities survival and progress.

    You know, I'd like to knock on your door and tell you you're already saved.
  55. M. K. from Calgary, Canada writes: This dilemma really is all about grace. I do not share the beliefs of those around me who say 'Grace' when they sit down to a meal, but I have an opportunity to exhibit grace of character by maintaining a congenial and respectful silence until they've finished. It never lasts long enough for my supper to get cold, and this little bit of generosity and courtesy on my part costs me absolutely nothing.

    Then, too, while I may not be offering thanks to the other person's god, I do still have time to reflect on my good fortune in having a meal to sit down to and company to sit down with. It doesn't matter what or whom I decide to thank - maybe I can just thank my lucky stars or the chef in the kitchen - But I am grateful for what I have. Or I should be.

    I've found myself thinking more and more about the conflict between believers and nonbelievers lately. It occurs to me that if a person really is comfortable with his view of the world and all matters theological, then he shouldn't feel compelled to demonstrate his contempt for the other side at every opportunity. When I hear someone - theist or atheist - making a big ruckus about the other person's beliefs, I suspect the person he's really trying to convince is himself.
  56. Do Good from United States writes: .

    M. K.,

    I agree with you whole heartedly.
    .
  57. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Well, intriguingly (ahem, George Orwell, ahem), the following post of mine was somehow deleted after it was posted, so here it is again:

    Sean from Toronto continues to repeat his own personal (and incorrect) belief that 'being religious' is 'a delusion'.

    Sean should have read the psychiatry manuals that I directed his attention to (available online to the public). In texts such as those he would have read:

    'A DELUSION is a false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary AND THESE BELIEFS ARE NOT ORDINARILY ACCEPTED BY OTHER MEMBERS OF THE PERSON'S CULTURE'.

    Well, looking at Canadian culture, since the majority of Canadians identified themselves as Christian in the latest government Statscan survey, that indeed means that Sean's belief is wrong - that is, to the contrary, 'being religious' is NOT 'a delusion'.

    It is very weird that Sean trumpets his own personal belief as 'fact', since his personal belief in fact contradicts the established definition of 'delusion' (see above) that has been accepted and defined by the specialists in the field in question!
  58. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: Rick Sieb from Edmonton, Canada writes: Everyone believes in God or they wouldn't be able to tolerate life.

    I would counter Rick, that nobody believes in God, but that relatively few have sufficient intellectual integrity to make that admission.

    Whether life is 'tolerable' or not (on this basis or any other) is, I will admit, a rather profound question.
  59. Sean L. from Toronto, Canada writes: Sask Langer from Canada writes: Congratulations, Sean L. You read a book by Richard Dawkins.

    Sorry to disappoint you - have never read his book. Atheism is not a belief - although apparently many people do not seem to understand this.

    I have however read extensively on religion, out of historical interest, and in several fields of science while pursuing my degrees. There is little intellectual value to receive from listening to unlearned parroting of the bible, and as I already stated - I am tolerant of persons beliefs in their home and observe their dinner table rituals when a guest.

    Like Tyler, you seem to have missed my point entirely. I suggest enrolling in an ESL course and work your way back up to reading a newspaper.

    The point you keep failing to get is that this woman underwent a sudden change in personality.
  60. Just Sayin' from Canada writes: At some level I am a little bit sympathetic to the Mother's situation here (even though I don't have a religious bone in my body). She deserves her family ridicule, however. Imagine if you were raised in a family, and were a lifelong fan of the Montreal Canadiens and all of a sudden came home decked out in Boston Bruins gears and announced a change in your allegiance. I suspect that you would be right in expecting a healthy dose of taunting and mocking from your family (and not all of it would be a function of the annual slaughter Montreal reigns down on Boston).

    All she has done is switch teams. Its not like she has made a life or death decision here. That ridicule should only intensify if she tries to convert her family into Bruins fans.

    BTW ... both Bruins and Habs fans should take their hats off at the table.
  61. Do Good from United States writes: .

    Canadian Infidel,

    I understand and agree with what you said, although I wouldn't put it that way. You may have confused the hell out of Tyler Williams.
    .
  62. Sean Kelly from Nova Scotia, Canada writes: Canadian Infidel, I can understand you don't have the highest regard for religion, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it robs people of their self worth.

    You're right in saying that religion often manifests after someone has had a traumatic experience, some people use it to realign themselves.

    In this case, it seems to give this person's mother comfort. I could hardly say that her honest fait is a delusion - even if I did believe in an omnipotent, monotheistic, god - the same one who purportedly gave wealth to the likes of Paris Hilton and power to the current U.S. President.
  63. Kerwin Myler from Montreal, Canada writes: I'm not religious, but was raised christian, and I feel a little uncomfortable about paying 'lip service' --mumbling along-- to religious traditions at family gatherings when it's time for grace. So I do what I would do if I were at anybody else's house, in particular at the home of religious non-christians, or at a non-christian wedding, for example: I close or lower my eyes and sit silently, just out of respect for other people. It doesn't hurt me to do that, and it's a good compromise.
  64. Glenn Finockio from Winnipeg, writes: If I wanted to say my own 'grace' which involved denouncing all religions, gods, deities and otherwise... would you respect me and let me say it?
  65. Jim Whitney from Kearney, Canada writes: If the mother wanted to say a prayer and thank the clouds and the monkeys for a beautiful meal, the family would be allowed to laugh. Maybe in the minds of the children, thanking an imaginary friend is also funny.

    I say laughter trumps all. My vote goes to the kids.
  66. Sean L. from Toronto, Canada writes: Tyler: you continue to read what you want into my response and try to mischaracterize my answer.

    Tyler, read this slowly so you can grasp the fine distinction between delusional (the pathology) and a delusion (the linguistic term).

    Psychiatry has nothing to do with the linguistic definition of a delusion. Religious beliefs are delusions. If you plan to offer scientific evidence of god - I will be happy to test your theory, however until you offer up proof I am afraid that these beliefs of yours are still just a delusion (as in a false belief, not a pathological condition).

    While physiatrists have excluded the delusion of religion from the diagnosis of the pathology of a delusional mental state - this omission does not validate your beliefs, nor does it make the application of original linguistic intent of the term delusional to be any less correct.

    As I clearly stated, the condition which merits the concern here is the nature of her change - the sudden reversal of beliefs.

    By the way, under strict interpretation of the pathological condition, in her sub-culture (her family) the norm was for agonistic. Did you actually pass PSY101? If you did, I suggest that you take some English courses as well, so you can better understand what you read.
  67. robert F from Toronto, Canada writes: Well I guess it depends on where/when/how.

    If it's your mom's home, then let her do as she wishes. As long as she understands you do not share here belief and will just sit quieting and wait.

    If it's your home, it's up to you on whether this should be allowed out loud. Not being religious is often mistaken for someone who doesn't mind, when in fact often one will mind. I don't want a prayer meeting in my home, as my lack of faith in one or another particular religion does not mean I endorse it's spreading in my home.

    Now if she forces the issue, or uses the prayer as an opportunity to vent..well shut her down.
  68. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with any of you. I've read most of the preceding posts and I can count on one hand the posts that didn't display a) sarcasm b) prejudice or c) arrogance.

    I'm an athiest. I've been one as long as I can remember. I've encountered many people of various faiths and I've even (gasp!) attended weddings and funerals in CHURCHES! To my knowledge, I have offended exactly ZERO people in almost forty years of being true to myself. It's simple really:

    1. I don't bow my head, kneel or clasp my hands to mimic the actions of prayer. I simply sit (or stand) quietly with my head up and my hands at rest.

    2. I don't sing along, pray along or say amen. In fact, I don't make any noise. I just wait until it's over.

    3. I don't mock or criticize any of the actions I witness. In return, I do not accept any pressure or criticism of my lack of participation.

    What bothers me are these endless posts that encourage disrespect, prejudice and intolerance from BOTH sides. I don't care what you believe. I care that between the lot of you there isn't an ounce of integrity. I can't wait to meet your children.
  69. K Ordos from Canada writes: Being atheist, I don't see any point in talking to myself before commencing a meal. However, in your Mom's house, I would think that her rules apply. If she wants to say grace, there really isn't any harm in it. If she insists on the rest of you taking part, I don't feel that's right because it would be forcing her beliefs and religious practices on you. Also, shame to all of you religious posters trying to push your views on people posting in this forum. Believe in your gods all you want, just keep it to yourselves!
  70. John L. Murlowe from Colony of Vancouver Island, Canada writes:
    Can anyone explain to me what is wrong with being thankful ?
  71. Flames Forever from Canada writes: Definition of an athiest : All dressed up, nowhere to go!
  72. c rob from Canada writes: If my mother wanted to say a prayer of thanks to a mushroom, I would bow my head and respect her wishes to do do. And as she prays, I would thank my lucky stars that she is still in my life, to love and respect as she, and many mothers, so justly deserve.
    Religion be damned. It's you mother. Be thankful she is still around to begin with.
  73. John Silverman from Canada writes: Sean L - there is truth to what you say. Such a sudden shift in personality is always a cause for concern and should be investigated. A visit to a doctor would be prudent.
  74. snow crash from Canada writes: I'm not religious but when I'm over at my in-laws for dinner and they want to say grace, I don't make a big deal about it. Same thing at work. There's a collegue who talks about her visits to her astrologer. It wouldn't be polite to laugh out loud.
  75. Mike L. from Canada writes: James Gill from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'For those who are atheist, or who choose not to offer a prayer before a meal (or after, depending upon your religious practice), consider the value of a moment of quiet reflection.'

    In my tradition (Benedictine Roman Catholic), we ask the Lord to bless us and the food before the meal, and we give thanks after the meal. So a meal in my house, for an atheist, could have TWO moments of quiet reflection. I would think that for an atheist, this would be as valuable as prayer is to a Christian, provided that he/she uses the time to reflect on others instead 'me, myself, and I', unfortunately a concept obviously quite foreign to many posters on this forum.

    I know what I speak of. I fancied myself an atheist for 22 years until I figured G-d was no more nonsensical than the theory that the universe, life and humans just somehow appeared, and eventually will fade into oblivion. In that period I thought I was the most important person on earth. Surprise folks, you aren't. Not even G.W. Bush. But you can get a lot out of life if you treat the next person as if he or she was the most important person on earth. Benedictines call it 'treat every person as if he were Christ himself', for '...the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.' (Mt. 25:40).
  76. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Interesting.

    Sean from Toronto is resorting to a pathetically weak tactic in his debating, that being the frequent use of personal insults.

    His long string of useless personal insults includes:

    'read this slowly so you can grasp'
    'did you actually pass psychology 101?'
    'i suggest enrolling in a class in English as a Second Language'
    'work your way up to reading a newspaper'
    'your reading comprehension is as poor as your understanding of psychiatry'

    In any event, setting aside the useless distraction of Sean's frequent personal insults, and setting aside for a moment his amusing attempt at massive back-peddling in his 2:05 post, a point needs to be made clear:

    It was SEAN HIMSELF who originally USED the term 'delusion' in the psychiatric sense!

    Indeed, in his 11:01 am post Sean wrote, as point of fact, 'this deluded behavior IS a mental illness'. Those are Sean's words!

    Now, amusingly, Sean has since back-peddled in multiple posts, FIRST to instead say that mental illness is merely a possibility here (a possibility I never disagreed with, despite Sean's attempts to ram false words in my mouth suggesting otherwise) and LATER to pretend that he never meant 'deluded' in the psychiatry sense at all! Laugh out loud!

    'THIS deluded behavior IS a mental illness': Those were Sean's words (!), it was HE who invoked the psychiatry sense of the term 'delusion' in the first place!

    Of course, Sean is quite welcome finally to distance himself from and to renounce his original foolish choice of words - but wow, for him to try to use personal insults in his effort to paint anyone else but HIMSELF as responsible for his own foolish original statement?

    Too funny!
  77. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: I say grace and thank the lord for all that I have been blessed with. Other people may or may not join me. That is their option.
  78. can I vote again from around-Kingston, Canada writes: wow, lots of comments on religion ...completely miss the point. The point was made early in the posts by someone saying the disrespect shown to the mother of the household is not called for.
    on that note, the father (we'll call him...uh...HOMER) deserves the disrespectful little twits he's raised, and if HOMER isn't careful he'll loose his life-long companion in the process. bloody awful if you ask me, no call for that level of childish disrespect in anyone's home.
  79. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Interesting.

    In the area of hurling personal insults, it appears that Sean in Toronto is in good company, with 'Do Good' now writing to Sean:

    'Sean, you are dealing with a nut case parasite with little intellect, ie. Tyler Williams'.

    Um, sticks and stones, yawn...
  80. Tango Tiago from hoopville, Canada writes: I guess you're not very thankful, everything in this world has been due to yourself. I guess advance mathematics, the circle of life, and the many other things in life that money can't buy, are all due to you! We should be thanking you! There is no G-d, only you!
  81. Tango Tiago from hoopville, Canada writes: All the things you are NOT thanful for (table, house, food) are all material possesions. You truly do worship money more than anything else. What a surprise.
  82. Mike L. from Canada writes: Do Good from United States writes: 'However, god is a delusion...'

    Maybe he is, maybe He isn't. However if you wager he is, you run a very serious risk at the end of your life should it happen He isn't. If you wager He isn't, then if it turns out He isn't, you have one a very important wager with eternal rewards; if it turns out he is, then you have lost nothing and have lived a good clean life.

    Look it up. It's called 'Pascal's Wager'...
  83. Michael Tripper from Vancouver, Canada writes: uhhm the 'proper respect' is to not just to go along to get along with belief in the tooth fairy from an adult - if your mom is off her rocker and going mad let her know you do not agree and if she wants to idiotically mumble prior to eating - let her - just don't sit there like a lump of coal.

    You have absolutely no need to be there while she is in her mumbo-jumbo.

    It's not respect that is lacking but sense from your mom - just because she has a womb is no reason to worship her - worms have mom/dads as well.

    Blind obedience is a problem that always must be confronted.

    If your mom is uncomfortable because of her beliefs, that's her problem, not yours or your family's - as a matter of fact you seem like a mindless drone who wants others to suffer out of 'respect' - hardly a team player in the family are you - you like stirring up trouble just to puff up your own presence in the family methinks.

    You are a whining loser.
  84. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Do Good from United States writes: 'However, god is a delusion and religions are power struggles for the control and manipulation of humanity.'

    Which is of course merely an opinion. One which you are free to have and express of course, but still little more than an opinion.

    I am the first person to admonish those who insist on literal interpretations of metaphorical texts, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water in assuming there is no value in recognizing universal ethical principles.

    If the problem for you is form, then I say change the form, but let's not pretend your statment above provided any useful refuting facts.
  85. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: I was about to post an opinion when I read Mark's first post. He said it better than I could.
  86. can I vote again from around-Kingston, Canada writes: [Michael Tripper] having a bad day? The story wasn't about maiming dogs and cats or human sacrifices

    The best solution at this stage in the wee kiddies life is... MOVE OUT. Remember the old saying? 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you'
  87. edward prior from Montreal, Canada writes: Been through this exact scenario with members of my family in the course of which, I have been asked by the religious members 'aren't you going to join in?' A. No. Grace was one thing, but all to often the evangelical element was actually using the occasion to preach rather than offer grace. Occasionally I would excuse myself from the table until the ritual was over; just commence eating as I usually do; look at the ceiling and count the sparkles in the spackle or simply decline the invitation in the first place. If I happened to invite family to my place, they were free to say grace in the silence of their thoughts or, if that was unacceptable, then they were equally free to decline my invitation. The religious were critical of my behaviour. Fine, but I stood my ground and insisted that if grace was to be a part of the dinner, then, for the one time out of 50 that we were a mix of religious and non-religious, then grace could be entirely non-denominational. If the underlying meaning was true thankfulness, then god need not be invoked for the feeling to be sincere, or, if it was necessary to invoke god, then grace was being used for an altogether different purpose. So, if mom wants to say grace, leave it be gratefulness, pure and simple and something that everyone can feel comfortable with
  88. can I vote again from around-Kingston, Canada writes: [edward prior from Montreal] I see you are a Gemini, always suggesting compromises... notable but in this case running a household isn't by consensus, the more successful ones are run by a benevolent dictator....

    And the golden rule (of course the kids should respect their parents), no I'm talking about the golden rule of; 'he/she who has the gold makes the rules'
  89. Shawn Bull from Canada writes:

    Michael Tripper from Vancouver: Life hasn't turned out the way you wanted eh? Sorry to hear about both your lack of repect for your parents and yourself. Maybe this will change when you grow up and learn to forgive.