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Detainees list torture, abuse by Afghan officials, filing says

PAUL KORING

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 5:02 AM EST 20/12/07

Involve roughly a quarter of prisoners interviewed in Afghan jails, according to filings ...Read the full article

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  1. Awash in Cash from Vote-Rich Ontario, Canada writes:

    And now a detainee abuse story!

    What amazing timing!

    Tomorrow I expect to see Randy White's comments and the 'soft on child abuse' stuff in the lead column.

    Listen guys, you bash and bash Harper, hoping for a change.

    Here's what it feels like:

    You guys are constantly dissing my car, and nag me about what a piece of garbage it is. Every single day.

    However, I look over your shoulder and see a '72 Ford Pinto in your driveway with a 'For Sale' sticker on the windshield.

    Exactly.

    Happy Holidays--good luck with your Pinto.
  2. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: Roughly a quarter of the prisoners interviewed in Afghan jails as part of Canada's follow-up inspections of transferred detainees said they were tortured or abused,

    and on a separate story, these same prisoners said they have no problem beheading people's in order to further their cause .
  3. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: And afghans are detained for a variety of reasons, so the previous posters are making assumptions. Supposedly we are there to help Afghan become a free democratic country and rule of law.
    Do we do as we say or what?
  4. Mike McFae from Canada writes: The word ' detainees ' is such a soft term. I suspect the Canadian military is more focused on comforting the prisoners than on comforting it's own soldiers knowing there are a bunch of media hovering around just waiting to find a ' detainee ' with a bruise so they can blast a frontpage story. Of course , the detainees must be imprisoned properly but why not run a cover story on why these people are in prison. For every looter , there are many rapists , torturers and 'beheaders'. We need some balance here rather than trying to one-up the American media coverage of Abu Ghraib.
  5. Average Dummy from NWT, Canada writes: Let us provide more safety for senior citizens here at home and forget the Afghanistan. There are more criminals and gangsters roaming free here in Canada than there is Taliban who may BOMB Canada in the future - over there. Bring the army home to clean up Canada!
  6. Al Suba from Trenton, Canada writes: If I were a 'detainee' and someone was stupid enough to ask me how I was being treated, I would string a line of b.s. the likes of which only Josef Mengele could imagine!
  7. Canada First from Canada writes: The media, goody-two-shoes, terrorist support havens & opposition blow this crap all out of proportion for their own personal gain - are we supposed to feel sympathy - take a hike.
  8. Zacarihia Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Lemmee see. I thought we beat that dead horse dead about 100 times already. OK lets beat that dead horse again.I can see the liberal drool of the editors after the poll of yesterday.So an Aghgan beats the crap out of an afghan and its Canada's fault.No its Harper's fault.If I didn t know better I would believe this paper wants harper out.Its a great balanced source of news.Or is it lets dust off this story again cause we gottem down so lets kickem good again even if we have to stretch a little.
  9. Zacarihia Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Oh yea and one last thing.for all you freaken bleading hearts to come who hate our CF why don't you call the government and tell them you want to sponsor these good detainees in your home for Christmas and live with you after that.Am I still allowed to say Christmas?Did I hurt anyone feelings.Like the kids in ottawa yesterday singing a christmas song and forced to change the word in the song from Christmas to festive.What kind of BS is that?
  10. Michael Crowell from Halifax, Canada writes: We need a Fox News in Canada and fast. I am so fed up with the left leaning media in this Country I am ill. We continue to pump out a bumper crop of leftists from our journalism schools year after year.
  11. Michael Crowell from Halifax, Canada writes: Ever notice the more right of center type post early in the morning. More than likely they are on their way to work. Take notice later in the day when the left wing get out of bed they spend the day polluting these blogs while the others are at work paying for them. Somewhat like any protest these days, always the non working type show up while the others have jobs to do to feed their families.
  12. Awash in Cash from Vote-Rich Ontario, Canada writes:

    Michael Crowell-

    You are correct.

    The other trick favored by the G&M is to change a sentence in the article at about noon, thus 'updating' it, and flushing the early bird comments down the drain.

    By 2 PM, you will come back and take a peek, and find that the 'first' comment is at 11 AM or so. Wall-to-wall CPC bashing from then on.

    I guess that's when the unemployable fall out of bed and start posting....;)
  13. James Young from Brantford, Canada writes: There is no excuse for abuse, and those responsible have to be held accountable. Above all the 'offical position' has to be that abuse and torture is not allowed.

    We, the West, must at least officially take the high ground. I am still aghast about Senior US Officials debating whether water-boarding is torture.

    Torture needs no definition. Torture is torture is torture.

    However, I would get a bit of pleasure seeing Day and MacKay subjected to a hour of so of water-boarding.

    Durgan.
  14. Russ Kehoe from Canada writes: Michael Crowell you do realize the the media is owned by right-wing individuals. Of course you do not, you don't even see how pathetically B.S. laden and ridiculously stupid your comments are.
  15. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: Since 2004, when Afganistan ranked 173 out o 178 on UN global human development index ,by 2007 it had dropped to 174 . Life expectancy under Taliban was 45.5 years ,by 2005 it had dropped to 43.1years. 6.6 MILLION Afghans do not meet their minimum daily food requirement .54% of Afghan children under 5yrs are experiencing stunted growth , 7% starve to death .Literacy rates for women have fallen from 15% under Taliban to 12.6%.Governmnet corruption sucked up most of Canada's $1.36 billion in aid , only $424,000. had a local impact
    Nato has completely failed the Afghan people, and Nato's continued presence only makes life worse for Afghans.We need to get out now , and fund food aid programs from non-politicized aid agencies.
  16. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: So far, with the exception of bleeding hearts like James young, the contributors are finally coming to grips with the media's vile precoccupation with making a case for the blood thirsty 'detainees' who are dedicated to killing NATO forces and innocent civilians. I couldn't care less what happens to them when they are turned over to their own people for imprisonment. Perhaps the media and the military bashing jerks that haunt these pages would prefer it if the captives were simply shot on sight (as they so richly deserve) and not be turned over at all. That would give them something else to really chew on.

    Seasons greeting to all of our military personnel and sincere best wishes for your noble efforts in this dreadful conflict. Ignore these ignorant louts and keep up the good work.
  17. Mary O'Hara from Canada writes: Nothing more pathetic to see than the moral high ground taken by apologists for terrorism, beheading, abuse of women, murder of homosexuals, suicide bombing...
  18. Pete Kauchak, Green Tory from Cascadia, Canada writes: Mary O'Hara from Canada writes: Nothing more pathetic to see than the moral high ground taken by apologists for terrorism, beheading, abuse of women, murder of homosexuals, suicide bombing...

    Especially when Taliban detainees are instructed to lie about these allegations.
  19. Zacarihia Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Russ Kehoe from Canada do you ever have anything to say?Your posts are pathetic and diarehia at best.Now leave the house and get in line so you don t miss the morning school bus.I know the best 3 years of your life was the ones you spent in grade 2 move along.
  20. Mister G from Canada writes: But I thought that horse was dead already? No amount off flogging is going to bring it back alive G&M. Let it go.
  21. The Centrist from Canada writes: Another good investigative piece of the Globe and Mail, like the one the Globe wrote exposing the sponsorship scandal.

    The Harper Conservative government continues to be soft on torture by handing over detainees to be allegedly abused by the Afghan authorities.

    Here I thought we were in Afghanistan to PROMOTE our way of life and democratic ideals. Our democratic ideals don't include torture.

    There is a plan however by the Harper Conservative government and its political operatives to deal with this problem. They will blame the media, the liberals, judges, civil servants, and everyone else. They will claim bias when none exists. They won't take responsibility and action. They will also personally attack any posters who disagree with Harper Conservative government policy. Thats the Harper Conservative party way, name calling and bullying.
  22. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: No media bias in Canada? Someone better tell Larry Zolf of the CBC.

    Quote 'Harper�s treatment of the media is that of an ingrate. The media made Harper. The media also first made Trudeau and Mulroney. Later, the media made both Trudeau and Mulroney and their parties suffer at the polls.

    A similar fate awaits Harper if he doesn�t change his basic suspicion and hatred of reporters and news commentators. ' Unquote
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_zolf/20060328.html

    The media see their role as social engineers, we poor fools simply expect them to report the news.
  23. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Joe Gopher: Your two contributions do a first class job of illustrating what a waste of a human being the guy who hides behind the inane alias 'The Centrist....' is. He hides his true name for good reason, I guess. Deep in his heart he may know how ridiculous he sounds when he posts a comment. My guess is Vern McFartson is the president of his fan club.
  24. Larfing Outloud from Virgin Islands (British) writes: Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario: well said Gerry, you echo my thoughts exactly.
  25. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Thank you Gerry. It's too bad that some see politics as cheering for a particular team instead of cheering for ideas and common sense and good government.
    A coworker of mine who is a rabid liberal, and whom I had many good natured discussions with, said something very wise after Stephen Harper was elected PM.
    He said that he hoped Stephen Harper was going to be the best Prime Minister Canada had yet, because Canada needs good government.
    Such a simple idea, yet so rare.
  26. Ruth Walker from Edmonton, Canada writes: Amnesty is right.

    Canada has a legal and moral obligation to ensure than torture does not occur.

    Two ways to do this are, 1) build a facility (part of the tiny reconstruction budget?) and 2) get the hell out of Afghanistan.

    The Harper government is covering up because they know full well that the vast majority of Canadians would not tolerate their shameful practices. There is no justification for torture.
  27. albert latreille from ottawa, Canada writes: And what exactly would the wise,taliban prisoner say.Yes i am treated very well i want to stay in jail??They know what our NDP,LIBERAL do gooders will do,give them each $10,000,000.00 and put our soldiers on trial.What evil ,evil people we have in opposition and their followers are just as bad.Instead of taking prisoners,just kill them and we wont have this crap to worry about.War isnt about taking prisoners,its about winning.
  28. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: What else is new. This is in every terrorist training manual that has ever been written. 'Claim you were tortured.' Bet they don't like the food much either.
  29. Barrie Hebb from Halifax, Canada writes: Even though I think Canada should not be in Afghanistan in the first place, the fact is that Canada is currently there and undergoing operations. When a country invades another country, no matter what the intentions are, it does take responsibility for the outcome of its actions. Canada is in this case fully responsible for the torturing and beatings of human beings - something that seriously alters any past history of peacekeeping. Canada detained the people and then transferred them when it is not obliged to to another party that there is ample evidence to suggest the prisoners are being tortured. It is like pushing someone into a pool knowing they canot swim and saying that 'I only pushed him and that does not equal drowining - it was the water that killed the person.' If the Canadian government cannot take responsibility; how can it expect the Afghan government to be responsible for its actions? Why is the standard always higher for others?
  30. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: Wow, what stagering journalism. Imagine prisoners complaining of torture and poor treatment. I wonder if these honourable men are being 100% truthful.
  31. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Ruth Walker: Give your head a shake. You state: ' .....the vast majority of Canadians would not tolerate their shameful practices'.

    The vast 'majority' of contributors right here shoot that comment down in flames.

    We Canadians have nothing to be ashamed beyond such things as comments like yours. Try getting on board with the 'majority', you may get to like it.
  32. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Now Barrie Hebb joins the ranks of the bleeding heart apologists for the terrorists.
  33. t scot from Canada writes: Mary O'hara..may I say that I find right wing women particularily repugnant. I picture you being dragged around by the hair and loving it.
  34. Mikey from the GWN ___ from Canada writes: The Centrist

    'Here I thought we were in Afghanistan to PROMOTE our way of life and democratic ideals. Our democratic ideals don't include torture.'

    Let's see - one allegation that has some physical evidence of being true. And the Afghan offical responsible is now under arrest and investigation. It's that promoting the rule of law?

    Or would you rather we leave and allow the previous status quo to continue?

    CHeers

    Mikey
  35. stevie to legalize pot , bring in death penalty for political crimes(Grower's Poll) from Canada writes: Awash in Cash from Vote-Rich Ontario, Canada writes:
    And now a detainee abuse story!
    Exactly.
    Happy Holidays--good luck with your Pinto.
    Posted 20/12/07 at 4:53 AM EST |

    Mentor police , mentor army , mentor civil servants ? Mentor jail guards and wardons , outlaw private prisons run by CIA , private American companies , warlords , drug lords ? Just spitballing eh ?

    Not stevie's fault that he is bought and paid for by Freedom Watch eh ? Never critize someone who is infected or otherwise incapacitated !
  36. t scot from Canada writes: Jerry Pankhurst....The fact is Jerr that right wing ideologues like you represent a minority of about 25% at best. Sometimes you can temporarily convince another 10% of the weaker minded people to join you, but that's it.
  37. A good Canadian from Canada writes: Where is that news article that was going to be written about how 'detainees' in Afghanistan were being held in squalid conditions, sleeping in unheated rooms on a mat on the floor, eating poor food, and using a communal toilet? You know...the one that was scraped when the reported saw the guards slept on mats on the floor in unheated rooms, and ate the same food as the prisoners?

    Considering how the Taliban merciless hunt down, attack, and kill Afghan police and thier familes, I am surprised any of those detainees are still alive to be interviewed.
  38. Allan Eizinas from Simcoe, Canada writes: .
    The Harper political machine has already admitted that they target public opinion boards. They pay individuals to constantly monitor the larger newspaper boards and place pro-Harper posts as early as possible. Some of the names that they use are telling.

    By the looks of this thread, they are doing their job well and earning their pay.

    I am more interested in the 'non-paid' public opinion.

    That is the one reflected in the polls.
  39. Earth is the insane asylum for the universe from Canada writes: albert latreille from ottawa, Canada writes:

    War isnt about taking prisoners,its about winning.

    I don't care about Taliban prisoners.If they are indeed Taliban.Anyone who knows anything about Afghanistan should know these people will kill anyone in a second who they feel doesn't adhere to their strict rules.No prison,no torture,just death.
    As to war being about winning.That applies to both sides,and therein lies the crux of the issue.
  40. Lee Turner from Canada writes: So, the Afghan prison official who was arrested and removed from his position, torture cited as the reason, was what then? A secret Taliban plant that tortured his own people to make the Karzai 'government' Harper and the CF look bad?

    What about the prisoner with obvious physical signs of torture? He totured himself?

    If there's a problem, deal with it and move on. Pointing fingers, laying blame or spinning the story don't do anything to solve the problem, it's still going to exist after wasting great energy trying to prove that it does not. Admit torture is an ongoing problem, and do something about it.
  41. terry greenberg from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Lots of opportunity here in this thread for folks to defend torture and abuse, but in the end, it just means our debt of guilt to the Afghans will be greater.

    When it is time for Canada to pay REPARATIONS for our crimes against Afghanistan, we should consider how we will compensate the victims of our sanctioned and assisted torture and abuse.
  42. True North from Canada writes: Detainees are not convicts but many people here have tried and convicted them before they even get to whatever court system Afghanistan is struggling with.
  43. prospector from blackfly country from Canada writes: For another perspective on this article, read Peter Worthington's piece in today's Toronto Sun.
  44. Dick Dupa from Toronto, Canada writes: Any TAPES? Destroy it promptly!!!
  45. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: What country doesn't torture prisoners when it's in their interests. No country is innocent.
  46. Clive Gingell from Ottawa, Canada writes: The solution is obvious and simple; assign operation of all detention facilities to 'Amnesty' personnel, then, (if any of them survive), they can advise our troops and the Afghan government on the correct procedures.
  47. Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: Geoffrey May can you provide a source for your numbers? You say 'Nato has completely failed the Afghan people, and Nato's continued presence only makes life worse for Afghans' Here are some results of NATO being in Afghanistan: 1. Millions of girls are back in school with 400,000 new female students starting school for the first time this year; 2. Over 100,000 women benefited from micro finance loans to set up their own business; 3. Over a quarter of parliamentarians are women; 4. Over 7 million girls and boys are in school or higher education; 5. 83% of the population now has access to medical facilities, compared to 9 percent in 2004; 6. 76% of children under the age of five have been immunized against childhood diseases; 7. More than 4000 medical facilities opened since 2004; 8. Over 600 midwives were trained and deployed in every province of Afghanistan; 9. GDP growth estimates of between12-14% for the current year; 10. Government revenues increased by around 25% from 2005/06 to 2006/07; 11. Income per capita of $355, compared to $180 three years ago; 12. Afghanistan is one of the fastest growing economies in South-East Asia; 13. Over 4000 km of roads have been completed; 14. Work has begun on 20,000 new homes for Afghans returning to Kabul; 15. Over 1 billion square metres (roughly 32 km X 32 km) of mine contaminated land cleared; 16. 10 universities are operating around the country, against one (barely functioning) under the Taliban; and 17. 17,000 communities benefited from development programmes such as wells, schools, hospitals and roads through the Government’s National Solidarity Program (NSP) http://www.nato.int/issues/afghanistan/factsheets/reconst_develop.html
  48. Earth is the insane asylum for the universe from Canada writes: prospector from blackfly country from Canada writes:
    Peter Worthington's column is a good one until the last few words.The ones that say being steadily won.
    Most reporters in Afghanistan say the place is more dangerous now than at any other time in the last six years.Also most of the Taliban is safely tucked away inside Pakistan.The Taliban fight their way on their terms not NATO's.This is common knowledge.

    The futility of this situation is obvious.And someone doesn't have to be a military genius to figure out how difficult it is to beat the majority of an enemy when they reside in a different country than the one you're fighting in.
  49. matthew parsons from Edmonton, Canada writes: So a quater of those interviewed claimed torture? And three quaters did not? So again Canadians jump to the defence of the minority and automatically assume that everything they say must be gospel. We are there to assist in three things, all of which happen sequentially. 1- SECURITY. 2-GOVERNEANCE. 3-RECONSTRUCTION. Without the first you cannnot have the second or third. SO get over it. Why did nobody complain when we were in Kabul? For longer than we have been in Kandahar! People say that NATO has failed Afghanistan. All that has happened is that the citizens of NATO countries have failed themselves. Everyday there is more claims of increasing violence in the south. Guess what, it's because we now hunt the enemy, and it's thsame in Helmand as well. That never really happened prior to 2006, so the enemy had free movement. As for the prisoner abuse 'allegations', give me a break! We are not there to impose our way of life on them at all. We are there to teach them how to govern themselves and be an effective country. If torture is part f their culture then it should stay so. Any attempt to blame the Forces or Government because one prisoner got worked by one guard in Afghanistan is as much as clutching at straws as the Mulroney-Schrieber thing. If these are the only two things the opposition has going for them, then they are more hurting than I thought. Lets get the PM fired because of what a Taliban soldier said! Lets get the PM fired over what happened to another PM 15 years ago! Remember Canada, for just a dollar a day you can sponsor a young Taliban fighter. Your dollar will give him more credibility that your own nations soldiers, buy him more airtime, pay for weapons, and assist the establishment of the Jack Layton/Stephane Dion 'free the enemy' scholarship fund!
  50. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: 'The public release of such information [number of detainees] would jeopardize the operational security of our mission and put the lives of those serving in Afghanistan at greater risk.'
    ____________________
    What utter nonsense!!! The mission, if it is indeed to introduce democratic principles and human rights to Afghanistan, is under far greater risk when the West tolerates the kind of inhuman treatment to which people accused or under suspicion are subjected by warlords and the various fighting factions in the region. If we are perceived and in fact seen to tolerate man's inhumanity to man, to turn a blind eye to it, to detain people in secrecy, and to keep the truth under cover, we only demonstrate that, when it really matters, we sing the same tunes sung by repressive regimes. If we, with our tanks and guns and planes and bombs cannot demonstrate, go out of our way to demonstrate, what humane treatment and accountability looks like, what it means, and how it works, and how damaging it is to society, then what the hell are we doing there!!!
  51. bruce weaver from Canada writes: Who cares
  52. matthew parsons from Edmonton, Canada writes: People demand freedom of the press, and access to all info on the war?! And then call information security 'utter nonsense? Hey, Andre, we didn't win 2 world wars by flapping our gums about all the missions and plans and secrets did we. And look what it has done for us so far. There are plenty of un-desirables in Canada that would love to send some of that info home.
  53. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...the Neoconned who support this barbarism are displaying a wonton disregard for our people in uniform....when we condone brabaric treatment of prisoners, we cheapen the lives and welfare of our own....something that the Idiot in Chief and our own Stevie Side-kick really fail to understand.....
  54. I R from Canada writes: matthew parsons from Edmonton, Canada writes: People demand freedom of the press, and access to all info on the war?!...
    --------------
    Matthew, I disagree with your comments. World War II was not won in the conventional sense. What it was was a victory over unbridled nationalism and fascism. That is the war that Canada and the Commonwealth fought - maybe not the war the United States recalls fighting.

    I think things can be reduced to three phrases:

    1. Do as I say, not as I do.
    2. If they do it, then we should be allowed to do it too.
    3. My ends are justified by 'whatever it takes'.

    Not one of these phrases is representative of Canadian values or of the values of civilized nations.
  55. Jack Robertson from Toronto, Canada writes: If the government of Hamid Karzai is truly independent, then it is not the business of Canada or of any other NATO participant in the Afghanistan quagmire to second-guess the conduct of Afghan officials in the country's internal affairs. It is also more than a bit offensive that certain elements of the Canadian media show more concern for the 'rights' of captured Islamic terrorists than for the fate of our own soldiers. Many, if not most of the prisoners in question wouldn't think twice about slitting the throat of one of our soldiers or of any other Westerner. Perhaps Canada's bleeding hearts should bear that in mind when they are weeping into their granola over the fate of their beloved Taliban friends. If they are truly concerned about the fate of Afghanistan's prisoners, they could help to ensure humane treatment by volunteering to run the country's prisons in a more 'caring' manner. Good luck.
  56. Interested Observer from Vancouver, Canada writes: matthew parsons from Edmonton your proctologist called here! They found your head.

    Absolutely nothing to do with OIL. Nothing. No OIL in Afghanistan - not about OIL.

    We are starting a women's driving school - yeah - that't the ticket. School for WOMEN. Teached driving. We are there to allow women to be taught how to drive - get it.

    Nothing to do with OIL. Nothing at all.

    We are going to Burma and enroll Ma Khin Khin Leh next!
  57. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: ATT Greg Van Zant

    My post based on info from article on WSWS, their sources are
    United Nations , Afghanistan Human Development Report 2007 ,
    SENLIS Council 'Stumbling toward Chaos, Afghanistan on the Brink'

    These are both neutral sources with expertise in development issues , whereas , the source you quote is Nato , an organization with no background in development, and an organization that is definatley not neutral.

    I highly recommend Marc Herold's 'Afghanistan, as an empty Space '
  58. Brian Sexsmith from Toronto, Canada writes: Why not just change the laws of Canada so that we condone and support torture? No one is going to be punished for aiding and abetting the crime anyway. Once that is out of the way, Mary O'Hara and Gerry Pankhusrt can get down to the business of re-instating the death penalty and persecuting minority groups.
  59. vic w from Canada writes: Awash in Cash

    You sure like hitting the Enter key

    No matter what pseudonym you use

    We know that you're the same conservative troll

    It makes for good PR

    Hard hitting
  60. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Brian Sexsmith: Sorry I can't oblige you. If you want the death penalty and minority persecution, go for it but don't seek my help. Shame on you.

    I can't speak for Mary but I feel pretty sure she agrees. I never did think you were to bright. Thanks for the confirmation.
  61. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: If multiculturalism is such a great thing we should be happy to see the Afgans practicing their culture by beating information out of prisoners.
    If we should interfere with their culture on this, then shouldn't we also interfere with their culture of not letting little girls go to school and of executing homosexuals?
  62. Terry F from Edmonton, Canada writes: The Taliban screams torture and our wimpy westerners get weak in the knees. Whatever these guys get at the hands of their own countrymen is fine by me. To me, real torture is having no choice but to jump from a window ledge 110 stories up after a 767 slams into your building. Carry on, Afghanis.
  63. The Bubble from Canada writes: The postings already made here are something I have never heard in my daily life after forty seven years of living in Canada. I never have met any men including the men I know who have gone to Afghanistan to fight speak with such language. The two guys I know who have fought in Afghanistan are quiet men who talk about their jobs of administration in one case and being a gunner in another. They don't hate like the posters on this board. The frightening thing here is that not all of the posters here working to discredit the globe are working for Harper, some actually have this much hatred in them, it's daunting to read these comments. I believe some of the posters are actually trying to make people believe Canadians are a hateful society of racists on purpose which is truly reprehensible. Interested Observer actually cheering torture on and referencing an American fictional drama is evidence that truth is less important than the fellows above wanting to project thier own merciless hatred. Even at Christmas time the mostly men above have no compassion, they demonstrate the point we are in Canada's history, we are at the end of the rule of men who only have their self interest at heart and their venom shows what happens when they start to understand they are losing thier power in Canada. Harper needs to be voted out so we can remove this now lunatic fringe from having any power.
  64. James C. from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Zacarihia Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Am I still allowed to say Christmas?Did I hurt anyone feelings.Like the kids in ottawa yesterday singing a christmas song and forced to change the word in the song from Christmas to festive.What kind of BS is that?'

    __________

    where can i find that story? never heard about it. truly ridiculous if true.

    as for this detainee story, it seems to be a carbon copy of the one that appeared a month or two ago, which was a carbon copy of one that appeared a few months before that...
  65. Clive Gingell from Ottawa, Canada writes: James C:

    From the Ottawa Citizen:

    http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=5e75dcb8-8f3c-4a8f-b277-660aa1ed2ad3&k=67716
  66. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Geoffrey May from Canada writes: ATT Greg Van Zant

    My post based on info from article on WSWS, their sources are
    United Nations , Afghanistan Human Development Report 2007 ,
    SENLIS Council 'Stumbling toward Chaos, Afghanistan on the Brink'

    These are both neutral sources with expertise in development issues
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The UN is neutral? Better go do a bit of homework on that one.
  67. Clive Gingell from Ottawa, Canada writes: A better link:

    http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=8c422608-6a16-4e3e-bbf0-ed78e10dee24
  68. Interested Observer from Vancouver, Canada writes: Terry F from Edmonton - exactly!

    After all it was their ideology - ie non-Christian - that we are their to extinguish.

    Who cares if Osama was offered up for trial and the US turned the offer down to impose a 'shock and awe/ campain?

    Where else can we test out our weapons with impunity - they had weapons of mass distraction.

    So what if we blame an entire nation of Afghanistan for an attack carried out by Saudi Arabian men, trained in the US and financed and aided by Germany. WHITE people live there - allies - not those turban wearing brownies!! Kill them all - they did it gwb said so - the world's bastion of truth!

    Afghanistan/bombing WTC = Canada/bombing LAX
  69. James C. from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Zacarihia Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Am I still allowed to say Christmas?Did I hurt anyone feelings.Like the kids in ottawa yesterday singing a christmas song and forced to change the word in the song from Christmas to festive.What kind of BS is that?'

    __________

    where can i find that story? never heard about it. truly ridiculous if true.

    as for this detainee story, it seems to be a carbon copy of the one that appeared a month or two ago, which was a carbon copy of one that appeared a few months before that...
  70. Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: Geoffrey May from Canada - The World Socialist Web Site is neutral? From their site 'The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system. Its aim is the establishment of world socialism.' WSWS is Neutral and are experts in development issues? Are you serious? This report is based on statistics gathered in 2005. Some other key findings not mentioned on socialist propaganda sites: -the country’s progress towards meeting the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), the Report says since 2002, the country has maintained a steady growth rate and is likely to achieve its poverty goal by 2020. -The country does better on women’s political representation than its South Asian neighbours with 25 percent of seats reserved for women in the lower house of the National Assembly -'Mr. Massoud observed that one of the reasons for low levels of development in Afghanistan is the lack of security in some parts of the country. “I hope the recommendations of the Report are included in the framework of the Afghanistan National Development Strategy and would help in strengthening democracy in Afghanistan”, Mr. Massoud noted. At the launch, Mr. Asplund pointed out, “The findings of the 2007 Afghanistan Human Development Report reveal that despite decades of war, Afghanistan has made measurable progress with regard to some key dimensions of human development. While Afghanistan still faces many challenges, this Report itself is a major step forward. The Report emphasises the need to expand prospects of life and human development across the length and breadth of the country,” Mr. Asplund said. (Bo Asplund. is the Resident Representative of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in Afghanistan) Who is providing the security again? You also suggest that NATO has no expertise in development? They have made available 26.8 Billion in Afghanstan alone since 2001. Are you saying their claims are false?
  71. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: No Greg , I didn't say the WSWS was neutral , I said their sources were
  72. Wilf Kruggel from Canada writes: I also do not know why these detainees are such a news worthy item. because are not these people the same types where families get paid to have their children blow themselves up taking as many innocent people with them that they can? Somebody needs to give their heads a collective shake. Actually, I'm surprised that this segment was not 'closed to comment'. Freedom of the press is alive, sometimes, Wilf
  73. James C. from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Interested Observer from Vancouver, Canada writes: Afghanistan/bombing WTC = Canada/bombing LAX'

    __________

    the taliban knew that al qaeda had already carried out various terrorist acts and had more planned. can you prove that the canadian government knew that ahmed ressam (potential LAX bomber) was a potential terrorist and that he was planning to explode a bomb in LA?

    awaiting your evidence. but i dont expect you'll be providing any.

    clive gingell, thanks for the links for the other story.
  74. The Bubble from Canada writes: You can tell many of the posters are coordinated on these blogs because of the way they only will rebut people who they think they can whip into a frenzy and that when a normal poster says something truthful, they ignore it and then send in several comments to bury it. It's Christmas guys, and some of you are spinning hatred for a living, do you see the irony? The posters above are the same mentality as the men who exterminated the Beothuk and killed native north americans indescriminately in the early part of our history. There is always an element of evil in society, it fits with the philosophy that God and Satan are within us all and you are either closer to one or the other. People who support torture are the physical manifestation of what happens when Satan walks unencumbered.
    We've had evil in the past in the form of Nazi's, we need to put the meanies back in the box, Harper and Bush have opened the lid again.
  75. James C. from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: Geoffrey May from Canada - The World Socialist Web Site is neutral? From their site 'The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system. Its aim is the establishment of world socialism.''

    _________

    greg, theres nothing to take seriously on that website. its strong point is all the (unintentional) hilarity it provides and its free.

    'Interested Observer from Vancouver, Canada writes: So what if we blame an entire nation of Afghanistan for an attack carried out by Saudi Arabian men, trained in the US and financed and aided by Germany. WHITE people live there - allies - not those turban wearing brownies!! Kill them all'

    _________

    is this how you refer to all non-whites? you ought to be ashamed of your post.
  76. Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes- 'Interested Observer actually cheering torture on and referencing an American fictional drama is evidence that truth is less important than the fellows above wanting to project thier own merciless hatred...Harper needs to be voted out so we can remove this now lunatic fringe from having any power. '

    Intresting Observer does not represent Harper supporters, his comments are attempts of sarcasm - stereotyping the right with ridiculous comments instead of attempting to contribute to the discussion.
  77. Mike Sumners from Anytown, Canada writes: And, of course, we all know that the Taliban always tell the truth and nothing but the truth! ;-)
  78. CD W from nice small town, Canada writes: Let me guess, they were made to listen to tapes of Margaret Atwood reading her books. Horrible conditions.
  79. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Bubble, you notice a common thread among the conservative posters? That's because the common threads are facts and logic.
    And as we all know, Maggie Thatcher said the facts of life are conservative.
    If you take an honest look at the arguments you will see facts and logic being used by the conservatives and emotion used by the lefties.
  80. The Bubble from Canada writes: It's not working either way.
  81. Clive Gingell from Ottawa, Canada writes: Nice try, The Bubble, but the pre-9/11 planning was undertaken during Mr Clinton's watch, as were the embassy bombings in Africa, the USS Cole, et al.

    Messrs Harper & Bush weren't in the picture at that time, so I think you can leave them out of your self-flagellating, (ostensibly done on behalf of us 'awful Westerners'), weepfest.
  82. The Bubble from Canada writes: Gopherboy all I see from the cons is hatred, pure unbridled hatred.
  83. Paul, Bytown, from Canada writes: Easy solution: Do as they do. Shoot to kill and take no prisoners.
  84. Interested Observer from Vancouver, Canada writes: James C. from Chaozhou, Guangdong - exactly. The WTC attack has many deficienciesit assigning blame. If what we are to believe is true - it was a top secret mission carried out by a 'sleeper cell'. How can we blame an entire country except through hyperbole? If the guilty party was Osama Bin Laden - who 'masterminded' the 'crime' why do we join an illegan war to punish the innocent? If Osama Bin Laden was offered up for trial - which he was - why did the US ignore this offer, reject this offer, to imose a military occupation - complete with nuclear bombs, torture, human right abuses and a litany of other autrocities? Install their puppet regime, allow tribal war lords into government to continue on doing the very actions we said we abhor? What if 9/11 was - if not inside job - known and allowed to be perpetrated? goggle cheney/war games/ '9/11' I dare you to look for the truth and reject the US Hegemony appologists. 9/11 had as much to do with Afghanistan as Canada had to do with the bombing of LAX. If we are to go into the world and bomb/torture every country whosegovernment does not allign with the US = why is it only those with geopolitical OIL interests we go after? Why is Burma sacrosanct - because China is their daddy - not as easy to pick on Burma as it is a backwater nation that has strategic value - is it!!
  85. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Hey Bubble, why did Al Qaeda blow up that night club in Bali, was it because they knew Al Gore was going there? They were just a bit early?
  86. James Cyr from Balmertown, Ontario, Canada writes: The 'I am being tortured ' line will continually be touted by most Afghan prisioners because it represents a way out of a possible long jail sentence. I don't understand what Canada is supposed to do, with the obvious (and impractical) solution being direct involvement into the Afghan prision system. NATO soldiers are there to neutralize the Taliban and to try and make the country safe for its citizens. It would be unrealistic for Canada to establish a Canadian-run prison, and we will not be bringing them over to Canada for 'rehabilitation'. Do-gooder groups like Amnesty Interenational Canada and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association advocate not turning over prisioners to Afghan control, which could have more disastrous consequences in the long run. It is up to the UN to establish a western-style prison in Afghanistan if the meddling do-gooders so desire; it is not up to Canada.
  87. The Bubble from Canada writes: Clive you have proven that the cons are working on this site concertedly by referencing a term I used over a week ago. I hope Harper doesn't get elected because I fully believe that I will be targeted and that the cons will move on everyone who has caused them grief on these blogs and elsewhere if they are elected.
    Harper and Bush have cynically used the 911 event to move thier agenda, this is obvious and it continues, for you to be so hate filled and misguided about the whole thing is the proof that the only thing Harper and Bush wanted was to awaken the hatred in men like you to further their selfish aims.
  88. Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: Geoffrey May from Canada writes: No Greg , I didn't say the WSWS was neutral , I said their sources were

    Sorry I missed the part about the - SENLIS Council report 'Stumbling toward Chaos, Afghanistan on the Brink' and thought when you said 'These are both neutral sources with expertise in development issues' you were reffering to the UN and WSWS.

    The Senlis Council also recommends in their report that NATO increase its presence as a solution.

    'To start regaining the hearts and minds of ordinary Afghans, an expanded, caveatfree ‘NATO Plus&8217; presence must be established.

    A proportional level of commitment from every NATO member state is an important benchmark, and would send out a clear message that NATO is a unified entity with the capacity to project itself globally. A force of 80,000 troops &8211; over double the present total &8211; should be achievable within a relatively short time-frame. '

    http://www.senliscouncil.net/modules/publications/Afghanistanonthebrink/securityrecommendations
  89. Cuban Cigar from Canada writes: Wilf Kruggel from Canada writes: are not these people the same types where families get paid to have their children blow themselves up taking as many innocent people with them that they can?

    I don't know Wilf. Are they?
    Can you also be sure they are guilty?

    Or are you assuming that becuase they are Afghani or muslims, this must be the case, because as everyone (you know) knows, these people are all the same everywhere in the world - going around selling their children to blow themselves up to kill innocent people.

    (And we are there to save them, when we need so much help here).
  90. The Bubble from Canada writes: Gopherboy there is no reason to respond to your infantile arguments, it's christmas and the game plan of the cons has been exposed and it's showing in the polls, Canadians do not want people like you having any influence any more.
  91. Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: Clive you have proven that the cons are working on this site concertedly by referencing a term I used over a week ago. I hope Harper doesn't get elected because I fully believe that I will be targeted and that the cons will move on everyone who has caused them grief on these blogs and elsewhere if they are elected

    Did you ask Santa for a tinfoil hat for Christmas?
  92. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Keep it up bubble, you're a fine example of the best the Librano Party has to offer.

    BTW, the liberal party tortured me, please hand over a million dollars.
  93. The Bubble from Canada writes: CD W
    It takes someone with a little more intelligence to understand Margaret Atwood.
    I would like to point out the novel The Handmaid's Tale if you've never read it, there are a lot of characters like you in it.