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Globe essay: Aftershock of the '60s

Churches come tumbling down

MICHAEL VALPY

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 6:30 AM EST 22/12/07

Church membership has never recovered from collapse among young women in the 1960s ...Read the full article

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  1. James Cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: Christian Canada is not dying, it is being diluted out of existence.
  2. Jean Campbell from Edmonton, Canada writes: Michael Valpy... you've hit the problem head on...I was and still am one of those women who couldn't handle the patriarchial structure and attitude of the organized churches. Child abuse by those church leaders and workers has not helped my view of the church.

    I have found that I can still be a contributing member of society by volunteering and by being a decent, honest person without being a member of any church.
  3. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    The flip side to this story is that non-believers are not reproducing. Whereas church goers are not only more likely to have children but have them in larger numbers.
  4. A Yu from Barbieston, Canada writes: The reason why liberal mainline denominations started dying was they stopped standing for something. In their quest to be 'inclusive' and 'tolerant', they no longer have anything to offer that makes them distinctive. Therefore, there is no reason for anyone to consider belonging.
  5. Harvey Mushman from cambridge, Canada writes: Whatever accounts for the decline in organized religion...it's a good thing. I suspect that there is another factor which is not detailed in this article...one's standard of living. No doubt there must be a inverse correlation between household income and formal religious observance. I believe this partially would account for the decline in church attendance by second generation immigrants...who typically have higher incomes and standard of living than their newly arrived parents did.
  6. Aaron C from TO, Canada writes: Interesting. Going to church or even working at church isn't the same thing as being a Christian. I'd venture that the number of real adherents hasn't changed as dramatically as fairweather churchgoers.
  7. B Mac from Roachvale, Canada writes: Interesting discussion. Just don't try mentioning the first name of the founder of Christianity. G&M won't allow His name in the blog.

    Organized religion is failing in Canada for the same reason.
    There are tons of Christians--just not in those churches.

    Didn't he say something about a 'generation of vipers?'
  8. Action Jackson from Canada writes: This is another sign of the dumbing down of our culture. Anyone with any religious sense is more likely to fall for the un-Christian simplicities of fundamentalist sects. There's also the increased selfishness of most Canadians -- people who attend church donate much more money to help the less fortunate than non-attenders do.
  9. Mike Sumners from Anytown, Canada writes: Is Canada turning its back on religion? I hope so! We should be proud that we are one of the most secular nations on earth! As to why this happened, I think Valpy is right when he attributes the decline in religion to women. This should not be surprising given that religions the world over were invented by men to, among other things, control women. The women finally just had enough!
    This is all fine by me as I know that atheists are far more likely than religious people to be caring, giving humanitarians. Religion never had a monopoly on morality; quite the opposite!
  10. Peter Walker from Calgary, Canada writes: Some things about organised religion for me are
    don't do as I do, BUT as I say - look at the child abuse, the fundamentalists and TV evengelicals who preach one way BUT lead a completely different way of life themselves, and this goes for the Catholic Church as well. Just HOW is a fellow who has never been married and supposedly never in a relationship with a female, supposed to be taken seriously when counselling Marriage etc.

    In my view, the whole thing is a bunch of baloney, and there are too many hypocrites, Church on Sundays, being absolute A** holes every other day!! never mind the clergy (not all of them maybe, BUT enough to make the headlines).
  11. Vincent Clement from Canada writes: Yet another example of organizations that stuck to an out-of-date business model and failed to adapt to changing times.
  12. Tobin Manley from The Bronx, NYC, United States writes: This is not quite on topic, but I read a few years ago that Canada sends
    more missionaries overseas per capita than the United States.

    Recent studies by sociologists suggest that Americans over-report religiosity, while Europeans under-report the same.
    In both cases it seems cultural/political pressures have a strong impact
    on those who answer poll questions about faith.
    Perhaps Canada falls into the European camp wherein it is considered vaguely taboo, if not too American, to acknowledge religious belief.
  13. Bob ImamI from Canada writes: There is a reason that Josef Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI chose the name Benedict. He is part of a new intellectual purification of the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope himself longs for a philosophically pure even if it means smaller Church.

    The author is pretty much correct with the numbers. The relaxation of the ritual the mongrelizing of the Church had made it common and unremarkable in today's society.

    Make note of recent converst to the Roman Catholic faith. Theis ar not lghtweights... these are socially important people. For instance Tony Blair, Robert Novak, Robert Bork, Norma McCorvey, Malcolm Muggeridge,Peter Kreeft, 400 Anglican Priests who objected to the ordination of women as well as countless thousands.

    see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListofpeoplewhoconvertedtoCatholicism

    Yes a smaller, purer, more intellectually elite church.

    In the case of the Church, those who think they are smart can stay away. Those who really think deeply are welcome.
  14. Mike Sumners from Anytown, Canada writes: 'Tobin Manley from The Bronx, NYC, United States writes: This is not quite on topic, but I read a few years ago that Canada sends
    more missionaries overseas per capita than the United States.'

    Good! Let's keep sending them overseas! LOL
  15. Action Jackson from Canada writes: Mike Sumners says, 'This is all fine by me as I know that atheists are far more likely than religious people to be caring, giving umanitarians.'

    Nonsense. All the evidence points in the other direction. Have a look at this paper by Arthur C. Brooks in the Policy Review (Oct/Nov 2003) at

    http://tinyurl.com/2g5gsj

    He used data gathered from The Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey, a massive social science project conducted by universities across the USA in 2000. Brooks defined a 'religious' person as anyone who reported attending a church/synagogue, etc. at least once per week. He classified as 'secular' anyone who reported having no religion or who reported attending religious services fewer than three times per year.

    The religious people were 25% more likely than the secularists to donate to charity and 23% more likely to do volunteer work. For the religious people, average annual giving came out at $2,210, while the secularists averaged a puny $642. Even if you focus on just the nonreligious charities, 'religious people are 10 points more likely to give to these causes than secularists,' says Brooks.

    It just stands to reason -- if you reject the God of love for some bleak nihilism, you'll live a much more self-centred life.
  16. Open Mike from Vancouver, Canada writes: In addition to oppressive patriarchy, pedophilia, irrelevance, homophobic cruelty, arrogance, complicity with reactionary and oppressive regimes (that of the thuggish Maurice Duplessis, for a local example)---oh heck, the list just goes on and on, doesn't it?----there may be another reason why Canadian organised Christianity is sitting in the garage breathing its own fumes. We haven't had a full-mobilisation war in sixty years. It may be that, cut off from all that grief and pain, organised religion withers just as fatally as through the avoidable consequences of its own patriarchal stupidity.
  17. nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: if the major organised religions in Canada saw, understood, and practised the belief that women are the complete and total equals of men, then perhaps what they had to say might interest women who know this fact to be true every day they go to work. they have only their own sexism to blame for the declining attendance of those they would encourage to be subservient not to some god, but to other humans and for arbitrary and selfish reasons.
  18. Mike Sumners from Anytown, Canada writes: Action Jackson says:'...if you reject the God of love for some bleak nihilism, you'll live a much more self-centred life.'

    LOL Well, I guess that explains the Inquisition, muslim misogyny, pedophilia in the catholic church, polygamy, stoning...the list of selfless acts by religious people just goes on and on.

    As for the study you quoted, organized religion often 'requires' its members to give money and time. The food and clothing given to the poor is often 'given' on condition that the unfortunates 'accept God'; get 'em when they're really cold and hungry, they'll convert! ;-)

    Finally, I do not see my life as one of 'bleak nihilism'. On the contrary, I enjoy music, literature and trolling for religious nuts on the Internet. Above all, I enjoy the freedom to think for myself and I have the responsibility to answer to my fellow Human Beings for my actions, not to some make-believe friend.
  19. dave sharpe from Canada writes: all church's should be banned, they are criminal organizations preying on the weak
  20. Israel Goldstein from Detroit, United States writes: The efforts of Feminism in the 60s have led to this result. Score 1 for Feminism and 0 for Christianity.
  21. K S from Toronto, Canada writes: Could it be that we are living in a more progressive and liberal society where people are allowed to think for themselves and have finally realized there is no god? Duh.
  22. M E from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm skeptical of this study as most polls suggest that women outnumber men when it comes to attending religious services--not surprising in that religious institutions are pro-family and encourage men to honor their responsibilities to their children.
  23. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: Could the decline in church attendance from the 1960s find any correlation with the rise of television?
  24. Randal Oulton from Canada writes: >> Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: Could the decline in church attendance from the 1960s find any correlation with the rise of television?

    Hmm. Not really. The cartoons on Sunday morning always stank, remember?
  25. Action Jackson from Canada writes: Mike Sumners says, 'As for the study you quoted, organized religion often 'requires' its members to give money and time. The food and clothing given to the poor is often 'given' on condition that the unfortunates 'accept God'; get 'em when they're really cold and hungry, they'll convert!'

    Um, no, people in organized religion are not required to do anything. And I challenge you to find one case in which a large Canadian church has required anyone to convert before giving assistance. That just doesn't happen, Dumbo. And if you had actually read what I posted, you would know that religious people give far more even to the nonreligious charities than secularists do.

    As for all this silliness about sexism in organized religion: the United Church has been ordaining women since 1936 and has had a female moderator. It overcame sexism in its structures quicker than most institutions in our society, and yet this denomination has seen among the steepest drops in membership.

    No, it's the general dumbing down of our culture. Canadians, like Americans (as shown in a recent National Endowment for the Arts study), don't read as much as they used to. And when reading rates drop, intelligence generally drops too. That's the major trend that correlates well with the decline in church attendance.
  26. robert quinn from Japan writes: Without providing any hard numbers, Mr. Valpy implies that during the 60's white Canadian women marched off to university en masse. Heads filled with fresh feminist principles, they then entered the workforce as free-thinking professionals, having sloughed off outmoded constaints the likes of home, hearth and church. Divorce statistics from the 70's on up to present times would appear to confirm some of Valpy's thesis, but I would be interested in learning the exact percentage of Canadian womenhood to pass through the doors of post-secondary enlightenment during that turbulent decade. And what of those not blessed with our world-beating academic tutelage? Did blue collar women abandon orthodox faith settings with the same alacrity as their privileged sisters? If so, why? If not, why not?

    No mention of 1988 either. That seminal decision on the part of the United Church had no impact on the rolls? I wonder.
  27. Mike Sumners from Anytown, Canada writes: Action Jackson says 'Um, no, people in organized religion are not required to do anything. And I challenge you to find one case in which a large Canadian church has required anyone to convert before giving assistance. That just doesn't happen, Dumbo.'

    LOL A little thin skinned, are we? A little vicious? No turning the other cheek? No lessons learned from the 'God of love'? ;^)
    You should meet all of my relatives in the Salvation Army; they'll give the poor food and a blanket, just as long as the poor admit that God exists and that the Salvation Army is right. And yes, my relatives are required to do quite a bit in order to stay in the 'Army's' good graces: big houses with no mortgages, free leased cars, free vacations...the higher you get in the 'Army', the more perks you get......all ya gotta do is toe the party line your whole life...

    Someone pass the collection plate, please!
  28. Frank King from Whitby, Ontario, Canada writes: There is one good thing about this 'decline': the wheat and chaff are being separated. If you go to church today, it quite often means you are serious about your faith, since most people around you will think you are, at best 'quaint' for going and, at worst, idiotic and delusional. That wasn't necessarily the case before the 1960s.
  29. George S from Toronto, Canada writes: One observation I have from my neighborhood perspecitive is the the attendence at the Mosque not to far from my home. You cannot find parking anywhere around here when they have their service and the sidewalks are packed with pedestrians walking to the mosque as well. Lots of men seem to be active members as well. I believe they are having one of their Eid Celebrations (sp?) right now so it is extra packed right now. Think the Christian Churches should take a lesson from the people running the Mosque if they want to increase their attendence and membership.
  30. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: A church committee has unanimously advised the congregation to vote on Jan. 27 to leave the building, put it up for sale and merge with two other United churches in the city.

    No, this has nothing to do with decline in population generally, whether here or in most western democratic countries. Nope, the decline in numbers who attend organized religious institutions isn't following the same pattern as the overall decline in student population in schools.

    No, this has nothing to do with a national phenomina of declining student population, where we also see the merging of schools, whether here, or another province in Canada.

    Making 'guesses' while remaining in one's bubble, makes for weak social science.

    Women seemed to get 'blamed' for overall church numbers, but the fact remains, that population, and lack thereof, are the culprits. And no, women do not need to go out and reproduce more. This globe doesn't need more people, and particular high end consumption users. The planet couldn't handle it.
  31. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: Another thing - public funding of state funded religious instruction needs to go. It's parents' overall responsibility to provide for their children's religious/moral instruction.
    As the article stated, by the 2nd generation of new immigrants grow up, they too don't attend institutionalized religious institutions, so obviously, we are publicly funding 'instruction' that has lack of overall effect - religious adherents. So why fund poor outcomes?
    In other kinds of scientific or research based results showed this - over the long run- it would be suggesting that we are wasting scarce resources - on poor outcomes, and suggest putting our public dollars elsewhere, for more bang for a buck.
  32. Billy Shakes from Montreal, Canada writes: I think that a large part of why the flocks are dwindling is that the messenger has failed, not the message. The corruption of many churches has only reinforced the view that these places are more secular in nature than they are spiritual havens.

    One need not attend church regularly to be spiritual as there is no theological basis requiring one to do so. What is required is to have a personal relationship with God. The last time I checked, God didn't neccessarrily live in a concrete spire, temple, or mosque.
  33. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: Randal Oulton from Canada writes: Hmm. Not really. The cartoons on Sunday morning always stank, remember?
    ----------------

    I meant from a cultural perspective as opposed to the day, but, thanks for the laugh. My teachers forecast this decline and said that we really needed another war [with thousands of casualties] to fill the churches.
  34. Remy Martin from Canada writes: B Mac from Roachvale, Canada writes: Interesting discussion. Just don't try mentioning the first name of the founder of Christianity. G&M won't allow His name in the blog.

    Oh yes you can write Je$u$ on this blog ,in fact, in its true meaning !
  35. Darryl Williams from Dartmouth, NS, Canada writes: Interesting topic. I just finished reading 'The End of Faith' by Sam Harris, who has a lot to say about all organized religions. It's a very interesting read, whether you are religious or not.

    In addition to some of the points raised in the article I would also say that the decline of church attendance coincides with the rise of mass media - mostly TV, as someone mentioned earlier. Not so much as 'whats on TV to watch on Sunday mornings instead of going to church', but the fact that there's a big wide world out there with all kinds of people with different opinions and ideas.
  36. Action Jackson from Canada writes: Enjoy your stoning, Mike Sumners. I don't know about the Salvation Army, but they're peripheral. The mainline Protestant churches do a lot more charity work than they do, and you won't find any United Church, Anglican or Presbyterian charity effort inquiring about someone's beliefs before offering them assistance.

    You've made a series of flip, obnoxious insults of all religious people based on nothing but a few scraps of anecdotal evidence. 'Greed'?!?!?!? Are you serious? The same churches that have for years criticized our materialistic, increasingly laissez-faire system are driven by greed? Have you even heard of the National Council of Churches? You've just got to be joking.
  37. Raymond P from Canada writes: The role of women for the decline in religious belief has been overstated. Women took control of their lives away from all forms of patriarcal control including abusive husbands. This is a positive and I hope it happens for all other male-dominated religions as well. What is not delved into is and was the systemic child abuse by priests and the role it played in alienating the public at large. If a priest was discovered to have a penchant for young children he was transferred elsewhere to continue the abuse. As reports of child abuse grew in number people stayed away. Blaming women for the decline in church membership is a very small factor. Nonetheless this was an interesting article.
  38. John Hidden from Puntarenas Costa Rica via satellite link, United States writes: J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    The flip side to this story is that non-believers are not reproducing. Whereas church goers are not only more likely to have children but have them in larger numbers. * Posted 22/12/07 at 12:26 AM EST

    Would you care to confirm scientific proof of your statement please
  39. Mark Mitchell from London, Canada writes: Santa Claus, Je$u$, the Easter Bunny, I love em all. Honestly, does this not show a rise in the intelligence of our society? To quote Bill Maher, religion is like mercury. Its something that is drilled into your as a kid. However, once you grow up and realize that its poison, you have it drilled out.
  40. S Phillips from Canada writes: Frankly I would wonder about the agenda for a man who would take up the priesthood in modern day Canada. As it is for the other churches and for Islam I wonder how their followers can buy in and put up with the hocus pocus of their respective faiths.

    Funny how I am starting to think of it more in terms of our 1st nations people as in the idea of a creator, not necessarily in the image of man. Someone, something that started it all and made us responsible for its upkeep. Blend in with this for me the 10 commandments and I feel okay.
  41. Geoff Brookes from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Without wanting to join in on the ping pong of pro- anc con- Christianity comments, I will offer my personal contribution to the overall statistics, and my personal theory as to the future: My parents stopped going to one of the main Protestant denomenations mentioned in the article in the 1960's. I am 1 of 3 brothers. 2 of us began attending Protestant denominations not mentioned in the article, about 15 years ago, and continue to do so. The 3rd brother is considering attending, and has attended for special occassions, as have my parents, in recent years. I do think that any organization has to take a strong position on what it believes in and stands for. If it fails to do this, it will eventually make itself irrelevant, even for its own members. I think that the future of Christian churches, and perhaps Christianity itself, is tied to this logical principle. Having said this, I also believe that any organization has to challenge its own orthodoxy from time to time, not with a view to creating a new logic and dogma from scratch, but with a view to making sure that it is being faithful to the original logic and dogma in the context of a changing human society. As individuals as well as collective organizations, we sometimes don't get it right, and those that follow us will correct us eventually. I think that this process has been playing out, for better or worse, in many denominations within Christianity. If membership has waned over the past 40 years, perhaps it will be better for it in the long run, if it means that the message is refined and refocused (even corrected!). And, regardless of whether one is pro or con, we should all be thankful that we live in a country where we can all choose for ourselves, and have the opportunity to read about trends in religious attendance, and share our views on-line!
  42. Antonio Teixeira from Cuiaba, writes: I went many times in this Church but girls did not care about me. So, I married a Muslim South Asian lady and now she has Muslim kids.

    Where was the love? I am human too.
  43. Jean-Michel Rocheleau from Montreal, Canada writes: It is all too easy in a modern secularist world for people to be dismissive of religion in light of well-publicized abuse scandals, fundamentalist zeal and the politicizing that gives rise to widespread violence past and present. If your theology cannot separate faith from the abuses of faith, then perhaps you might consider applying the same line of reasoning to politics in general, the global economy, climate change, or whatever. At the end of it all, you might arrive at the disturbing conclusion that institutional abuses are happening at every turn. Wouldn't it be so much better if politicians concentrated on providing their constituents with guidance and leadership? If global economics were more equitable in the distribution of wealth? If nations and industry could agree to stop flinging garbage up into the atmosphere? Comprehensive secularism gives rise to its own form of religion, with some rather odious superstitions masquerading as fad theories, pseudo-sciences and herd mentalities. None of what has been produced in a secular context can be considered enduring. Lately, I've been studying how faith can survive the most severe degradations of the human condition as experienced at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Pure faith is a powerful and mysterious thing. There is no secular substitute.
  44. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: When I was a little Anglican girl in the Sixties, Mum would get us up, make us Sunday breakfast and as a family, we'd go to church every week. Mum of course belonged to the 'women's auxiliary' and 'convened the annual Christmas bazaar' several times, etc. Of course she didn't work -- this was Smalltown Maritmes Canada: she stayed home and raised her family, and all her social and organizational needs and skills were spent on the church. But she was of the last generation of non-working Mums, and once Mums were out working five days a week alongside of Dads, the Mums wanted to sleep in on Sunday too! Day of rest, anyone? After the Sixties, churches lost a whole lot of free labour when women went to work. In the Eighties, I used to take my kids to church. The church did not welcome us in any way, other than to call me now and then and ask me for: money for missions baking babysitting. I wasn't made to feel part of anything. Just a whole lot like free labour. My kids are baptised but we quit going to church decades ago now. I studied a course in Christianity at university, hoping to rekindle my faith -- however the course had the opposite effect, and convinced me that my faith was dwindling because I knew better. It's all okay: I believe we can be good and spiritual people without attending an institutionalized house of religion. Many people in the sixties only attended out of societal expectation anyway. 'I swear there ain't to heaven, and I pray there ain't no hell.'
  45. Darcy Day from Canada writes: This article is deceptive because it lumps all denominations in together to decide that 'Christianity is dying'. Not so. In reality the United and Anglican churches and all other liberal denominations' numbers are plummetting off a cliff, and they are not all becoming secular liberals. This is a topic talked about in low whispers in these churches. Many are jumping the fence to the conservative churches.

    The conservative churches' numbers: evangelical, independents, Orthodox and Catholic are exploding.

    The real story is death of liberal Anglican and United churches and the growth of the conservative churches.
    But lump all the denominations, numbers together for an average and you get an unreal picture of this article.

    The real story is there is a strong future for Christianity, and the numbers show it is anything but Anglican, United or liberal.
  46. John Hidden from Puntarenas Costa Rica via satellite link, United States writes: as an atheist i would like nothing more than to see the death of organized religion, leaving people to decide for themselves if the Great Manitou exist or not.

    On the other hand i would really like to see some organization without ties to religions take in hand the civic duties of caring for the less priviledged, giving solace to the poor souls that have been crushed by the forces of nature, give direction to the lives of our youth by educating them with real knowledge and science, and finally make the last days of our senior citizens bearable to the best of our abilities.

    To this organization i would gladly participate with a good chunk of my income. Sure, as a good atheist i would criticise and clamour that thing could be done better, but on the whole things would be decent.

    Ohhh but wait... this organization already exist and runs pretty smoothly even with its hic-ups... it is call democratic government.

    Seasons best wishes to all...
  47. Brant Zatterberg from Napanee, Canada writes: There is one reason for decline that has not been discussed - technology. When most of these churches were built they were the only game in town. Their construction, their windows and the oration of the minister was a wonderment to people. Church was a place to gather on Sunday's to exchange gossip and create social networks. Churches, in their day were on the leading edge and captured the imagination of Canadians.

    Between the late 1950s and 2007 Churches have fallen behind. People can network 24-7 and no longer need to attend church to feel part of their community.

    Sixty-eight percent of Canada's population uses the internet. Maybe Canadians have not left faith - maybe they're just waiting for organized religion to catch-up.
  48. Anthony B from Sydney, NS, Canada writes: Churches are so yesterday. Christianity is not about where you're SEEN on Sunday; it's what you DO the rest of the week. I have no problem with the teachings of Christ; it's what our society is built upon - do no harm, love your neighbour, feed the poor, heal the sick, etc. - but organized religion is all about power and control. Maybe what we need, in a secular society, is to teach our children the principles of Christ without the dogma of religion.
  49. Geriatric Personage from NB, Canada writes: John Hidden from Puntarenas Costa Rica via satellite link, United States writes:'Ohhh but wait... this organization already exist(s) and runs pretty smoothly even with its hic-ups... it is call democratic government.' BUT there is not in Canada any form of democratic government or there WOULD be euthanesia clinics, you would not be discriminated against (as in marriage, naming and death ceremonies) according to your religion or lack thereof. It WOULD be legal to help a lifelong friend die peacefully as he wants............. etc.
  50. Henry Allen from East Bank, Don River, Canada writes: The article tends to focus on the '60s as the period when feminism expressed itself by rejecting male domination expressed by many religions. I agree. However, little is stated in the article about why this period also affected young men, though it does touch on alternative movements like transcendental meditation. After all, the '60s was also a period of change in direction for young men. For the first time, young men began to question their own culture-given right to supremacy over women. Therefore, any authority that suppressed women, including established religions, began to be questioned by young men, as well. But, there was an over-arching impact felt by both young women and men during the '60s. Since birth they had lived with threats of the nuclear Cold War. Those who don't understand the Cold War have little understanding of this periodic threat of a nuclear holocaust on the '60s generation. This ongoing nuclear threat, brought to a head by the Vietnam War, led to heavy questioning of all authority figures and institutions, including governments, industry, military and organized religions. If a better way was to be created, young women and men thought, then all these institutions, again including established religions, must be critically questioned for their parts in creating a world that was driving itself towards annihilation. The '60s was a period of powerful protest and critical examination and no institution was spared, including organized religions.
  51. I R from White Rock, BC, Canada writes: And what exactly is the Christian religion? I am sure that you will find that some so-called sects are busy increasing their numbers while predominantly main-stream religions are on the decline. And why is that? Rampant proselytizing from the US? A tide of evangelical enlightenment? Or maybe just the intolerant and beguiling having a voice in high places...?

    For all the religious people in power these days, there sure is a great deal of war, misery, economic upset etc. I wonder if there is a correlation and a causation...
  52. Journey Man from Ontario, Canada writes: It is interesting that this article is presented just before the most sacred of Chistian holidays...

    You know, the Winter Solstice: tree worship, magic elves who bring gifts, flying reindeer, mistletoe, Yule log, feasting, etc.

    But before you know it we will be ready for the next big one, Spring Equinox: a magic rabbit that brings candy hens, eggs, feasting, etc.

    And then in the Fall: “All Saints Day”, or Samhain (Halloween) and all of it’s Christian symbolism such as ghouls, witches, back cats, etc.

    It is comforting to me that the religion of my distant ancestors has come back so strongly. Times change, but people really don't.
  53. John Hidden from Puntarenas Costa Rica via satellite link, United States writes: Geriatric Personage i do agree with your wishes...

    But our democratic government allows you to do more than organized religion would in all circumstances. (except the stoning or flogging of women of course and other barbaric practices).

    You would never be allowed euthanasia in any religion that i know of and i am ready to be corrected on this.

    As for the need to keep needling our government to be better... go for it, i will shoulder you.
  54. Cyrus Of Persia from Canada writes: Darcy Day's perspective is sound.

    The African Anglican churches are also growing, and they too are conservative, while the NA Anglican and Episcopal numbers plummet.

    What's doubly ironic and revealing about this stat is that it has been suggested among the putatively liberal and tolerant NA Anglicans and Episcopalians that their African peers are backward. Sounds bigotted and reactionary, hardly liberal and tolerant.

    A typical example of how many who sincerely believe themselves to be tolerant really mean they will tolerate anyone except those who disagree with them.

  55. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: I think that mainstream people are attracted to evangelical churches for the theatre, the entertainment aspects.

    Speaking in tongues and spirited singing are much more engaging interesting than long didactic sermons.

    If you got to give up your day of rest, it should at least be entertaining.
  56. Canadian Infidel from Cranbrook, B.C., Canada writes: While it's true that Women have wanted Changes in their Church's to match their new and greater Self-Images, they have also taken to Voltaire,Jefferson,Locke,Ingersol,Payne,Harris, Dawkins,Dennet and many other's whom proclaim there is no 'God' and that this is 'Wishful thinking' at it's worst. Like Santa Clause they have finely decided 'both God's and Santa's are Myth's'. This while Canada has with supine stupidity enshrined protection of Mythical Belief's in our Constitution usurping our Common Laws, with constant infiltration from the Oslam faith into our daily lives. While Christianity is trying to accommodate Women, Islam holds them in contempt. It's time our Constitution removed protection of 'Religion' for it is fostering a deadly head on in the not to distant future. Controversial scientist and evolutionist Richard Dawkins, dubbed 'Darwin's Rottweiler,' calls religion a 'virus' and faith-based education 'child abuse'. I agree all Mystical teachings to a child or the uneducated,disabled etc. is litter-ally 'raping of the mind' and criminal. It's time we grew up and placed these Religions in Museums of silly past thinking of humans.
    Enjoy the Solstice!
  57. A Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: For many here the debate seems to be about atheism versus church goers. In reality there are a lot of people who believe God exists , but do not believe in the role the 'church' has assumed for itself.

    I see some posters claim that while the mainstream Christian churches are dying, their members are simply crossing over to more conservative ones., However, if you read the article, the census indicates that is not the case.

    Finally. pre-1960 many people belonged to churches and affiliate religious organizations like the orange lodge, and the knights of columbus for security reasons. These organizations were also insurance trusts and welfare providers. Membership had its privileges and members could turn to them if they fell on hard financial times.
    When governments expanded their social security net and became the main provider of social services, including welfare; one practical reason for adhering to a particular church disappeared. It is just one more reason, on top of the others discussed here, why active church membership has declined since the sixties.
  58. Cyrus Of Persia from Canada writes: Richard Dawkins also believes in an infinite number of universes, which is as at least as unreasonable, by his own logical standards, as believing in a supernatural being.
  59. Anthony B from Sydney, NS, Canada writes: MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: 'I think that mainstream people are attracted to evangelical churches for the theatre, the entertainment aspects.'

    And because the Pat Robertsons and Gerry Falwells of the world took note of P.T.Barnum's immortal words: 'There's a sucker born every minute.'
  60. James McDowell from Kitchener, Canada writes: We're witnessing the fallout from wrong belief and practices within Canadian Christianity, both past and present. Some, Christian or not, use the situation to slam Christians and Churches, adding insult to self-inflicted injury. Some of the negativity is warranted, some is not very accurate. But institutional Canadian Christianity needs a thorough reformation. There are a number of other areas of Canadian life in which fallout is occuring. Wrong values and practices eventually get exposed. Nevertheless, sometimes institutions are propped up by public funding or regulations. This helps them to survive without reformation. We Canadians get cynical about them, but they don't actually die off. Consider the Senate, for example. Michael Valpy's insights are appreciated, particularly his reflection on changes for Canadian women. A number of other readers have added their own insight. Canada still has millions of Christians; some are perplexed, many are faithful to the truths they have found in the Christ, and some--fewer than I wish for--are newbies who have found something important. The quiet goodness of Christians and Churches is usually taken for granted. The failings are uppermost in many minds. And the need for reformation is acute.
  61. Murray Braithwaite from Canada writes: It seems there are numerous factors contributing the the overall decline of organized religion and the differing rates of decline or gain among different Christian sects. The fundamental question is whether the organization and its doctrines are adding sufficient value to the lives of the would-be adherents. In former times attendance was more of a social expectation, so conforming to maintain community social standing was a factor, which seems these days to be much diminished. The 1960s may have been no more than a tipping point where the social-expectation-conformity monopoly was broken, resulting in declining attendance, but of people who may not have been core believers to begin with.
  62. LostInSpace Forever from Canada writes: Religion has discredited itself repeatedly in this and the previous century. It has become a synonym for ignorance and intolerance, and of course in a world like today where information is freely available and choices are so many, it cannot survive.

    Even as we speak, the world's second largest religion is in the process of self destructing... or self detonating, rather.
  63. Andrew Slater from Canada writes: Tracking the numbers attending mainline denominational churches in not a particularly good way to measure whether Christianity is on the decline. Going to Church does not make you a Christian or even a 'good' person. Being a disciple of the Lord is what counts. There are many of those in Canada today and there is no formal membership roll. However, it is disconcerting to compare what is happening in the Northern Hemisphere spiritually to say, what is occurring in places like China, where 60,000 additional people embrace Him every day or Africa and South America where similar things are happening. He has His own way of keeping the numbers up; the question is whether we want to be part of it or not.
  64. Canadian Infidel from Cranbrook, B.C., Canada writes: Cyrus Of Persia from Canada writes: Richard Dawkins also believes in an infinite number of universes, which is as at least as unreasonable, by his own logical standards, as believing in a supernatural being.

    Richard is using 'reason' and the majority of scientists agree with his thought's in this respect. This however, is an 'unknown', but quite simply a logical thought.

    Religion or belief's in Mystic's is neither 'reasoned or logical thought'.

    If you don't believe in an infinite Universe then please define the perimeters of our Universe?
  65. Kelly Kavanaugh from Etobicoke, Canada writes: 'Many are called...few are elected' A sounding quote
    from the New Testament..and so prophetic in these times!
    Notice the words 'many' and 'few'...ditto!
  66. Paula Conning from Orangeville, Canada writes: Interesting hypothesis that church attendance is down because women won't put up with the patriarcal nonsense anymore. Personally, I think it's down because we have fewer premature deaths with the advent of antibiotics and modern medicine. If your child or other loved one dies young you have a strong desire to believe in a better afterlife and organized religion feeds that basic need. Prior to the sixies everyone experienced tragic loss,, now it's much less common. We don't need the god, heaven myth as a salve for our aching hearts anymore. And awful tragedies do happen- tsunamies, hurricanes- and they effect everyone whether they've lived a virtuous life is irrelevant. So the myths just don't make sense anymore.
  67. E. Biggs from Canada writes: You have to make a big difference between the old mainline churches, United, Anglican etc. and the newer denominations. You go on a Sunday to a newer denomination and watch the crowds of young families etc. going in and the building programs to accomodate them. Look at the young highly educated university types going to the newer denominations especially in the burbs. I do not go myself but have been highly interested in watching this and have done the little experiment myself so have seen it first hand. Was in one church a year ago who were sending missionaries to Que. which I found highly amusing. I would like to ask a bunch of you what you do believe in, the Gov.? After reading a bunch of these posts it is no wonder Canada is in such a screwed up mess. There are always you bunch of loonies who come out of the woodwork when the word religion is mentioned, me thinks you have some real deep seated issues that need addressing. I am not religious and do not attend church except when invited by a friend to the newer denominations, but not willing to right off what they appear to have, good social network, friends, many with good families and a sustaining belief in something higher than themselves. Have to go Christmas shopping. Have a good day.
  68. bill wilson from Taiwan writes: Really. I was taken through the door, but I would not stay. Recently I went back for a service (parent's anniversary - Catholic church) for the first time in 20 years. All I can say is that it was like attending a cult meeting. Chanting ridiculous phrases that basically say sacrifice for god and god will help you. No wonder no one goes. People are smart enough these days to need a conversation, not a slavish devotion, and Christianity, Islam, etc are not built that way...they were built for an uneducated population that did not question and was happy not to question. Old line religions have well outlived their usefulness, except for the old that go more for tradition than belief.
  69. Victorian Canuck from Toyama, Japan writes: This article is fascinating and perhaps this discussion is long overdue.

    In response to some posts about charity. Perhaps it is true that regular church attenders are more likely to donate because of the collection plate handed out weekly; however, these charities are always linked to the denomination (missionaries taking a large chunk).

    Although church attendance is down (Some protestant sects in particular, according to the article), Canadians are donating more cash than ever before. Our standard of living has gone up, and perhaps businesses are making more charitable donations.

    The article is 'dead on' when pointing the figure at the women's movement to the decline of church attendance. I remember sitting in church as a teenager and hearing the pasture talk about Adam and Eve. He explained that 'Eve was made from Adam's rib; not from his feet, so she walks below him; not from his head (which would mean above him I guess), but she was made from his rib: under his arm to be comforted.' I literally wanted to get up and yell, 'you really think all women need to be comforted?? I only went to church because it pleased my father. My mother did not attend, and perhaps if this pasture knew her then he would clearly realize that his analogy is flawed. She would have probably thrown a shoe at him if she were there.

    Since then I studied English lit in Uni. Many classic writers depict the church's attempt to establish gender roles for women. Faith was a measure to keep women in check, and they were judged more harshly than men were in matters concerning morality. It's about gender roles, and in today's Canada the genders should not be funneled into certain lifestyles. All organized religions should take note, and I hope the gov't does as well, so church's can no longer be considered tax exempt.
  70. Chris E. from vancouver, Canada writes: There is a new religion.

    Under its umbrella are its core tenets: multiculturalism, pan-humanism, and global convergence of consumer values.

    Its articles of faith are defended vigorously, in the hopes that all people of the earth will join hands around WalMart / Starbucks.
  71. Ex Drone from Ottawa, Canada writes: I find it surprising that, in the 21st century, people still believe in myths and superstition. There is hope, though. The StatsCan report called 'Religion in Canada (May 2003)' showed that people reporting no religious affiliation increased from 1% in 1971 to 12% in 1991 to 16% in 2001, with the largest proportion being those younger than the general population. The StatsCan report is produced every five years. I eagerly await reading about the latest increase in rationality in Canada.
  72. stephen ottridge from vancouver, Canada writes: In the far distant past , the priest was the educated man in the village, he dispensed advice, wisdom perhaps. Life was brutal, people working the land. Church was the gathering place, the social event of the week.
    Later you had clubs meeting in church halls. Then came TV, less need of going out for entertainment. People became much more educated about the world, they travelled, science brought us more and more wondrous knowledge. People did not need priests telling us how to live our lives, how things worked. People migrated from the villages into towns and cities so close knit communities dwindled.
    I am very thankful that my Christian heritage has produced a wealthy society. I am very wary of the moslem influence that is manifesting itself in our society. I cannot understand why more women are not speaking out about this medieval religion.
  73. James Cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: It can be said that Christianity has as its fundamental tenets values that have been adopted by the west. Values such as respect for people and their property, respect for law and respect for family, and above all, respect for the individual are all Christian values. The three basic values (reason, purpose, self-esteem) have the corresponding virtues of rationality, independence, integrity, honesty and justice. Like it or not, these are Christain tenets. These values have nothing to do with modern organized religion. One doesn't need to go to Church to hold these values. Indeed, one doesn't have to believe in God (although this is also a part of Christianity) to embrace these values. It is these values, however, that are being diluted out of existence by alternate scenarios.
  74. Darcy Day from Canada writes: Further to my comments on the death of liberal Christianity and the healthy growth of conservative Christianity, this G&M story is up:

    'Blair converts to Catholicism'
  75. A Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: I think that many people who believe in God today also believe in the 'heresy' of deism. Most who do , do not even recognize the term 'deism' , even though they unknowingly adhere to it.

    For deists, membership in a particular church or denomination is irrelevant , although some choose to do so.
  76. Robin H From Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: This thread says it all. It's all men commenting here. Women are always secondary within in these religious power structures, yet thankfully now their energies fuel other areas that bring real value to all our lives. Religions, all of them serve to demean women.
  77. CD W from Canada writes: The United Church and now the Anglican Church essentially believe in nothing. Every time I find myself in one of these places, the reverend is saying things like, well this no longer applies, and let us remove this page from the bible. Done long enough, there is nothing left between the covers. Thankfully I find myself a Canadian Baptist of the Southern Convention. My Catholic friends also find themselves under attack by religious liberalism. The watering down of religious devotion by milquetoast sometime adherents is a call to the rest of us to stand by our beliefs. So bring on the Human Rights freaks to attack us, it is our daily bread I suppose.
  78. Wave Rider from Salish Sea, Canada writes: 'Scholars find significant, as well, the marked decline in occasional attendance, which means the churches are losing prospective membership recruits.'
    Obviously as people become more reasonable they are less susceptible to religious indoctrination. Its 2008 and people are far less likely to adhere to superstition.
    Unfortunately, here in Vancouver they recently built a $30 million church right next to a high school that would be a death trap in a relatively large earthquake. Wouldn't the parishioner's god love them more if they had put the money into a seismic upgrade of the school?
    I'm truly happy for both women and men who decide not to follow down a fool's path and hope that those who currently follow any monotheistic religion will soon emancipate themselves.
  79. John James from Canada writes: As one of the posters here put it: church attendance is declining as people just know better. Attendance in mosques and temples just appears to be greater as their are fewer of these places than churches. Also, as the article correctly observes, after the first generation, attendance at these places will also decline.
  80. Trish Menheere from Canada writes: Why have so many women checked out of conservative Christianity? Here's an analogy. Imagine how it would feel to be part of a sports team where you were never allowed to play, but were expected to sit on the sidelines to cheer on those on the field. Imagine you were constantly reminded of your inferior status by being expected to cater to those allowed to play. Oh, and if something went wrong, it somehow had to be your fault. How long would you keep showing up for games? I am a female raised Catholic. Although I dearly miss the sense of community I had going to church as a child, a cannot participate in an institution where I am clearly a second-class citizen. The current pope continues to promote this inequity. Women will continue to pull away from the Church as long as they are not allowed to hold positions of power and are told that they are not allowed to make their own choices on reproduction. I cannot support an institution that had tried to hide abuses against women and children. For an institution to remain relevant, it must be a product of its own time. The Catholic Church refuses to move into the present. How unfortunate. Many bloggers here have provided thoughtful, interesting and important ideas. I find it surprising, however, that well over 90% of all comments are from (where discernible) males. Or perhaps it isn't surprising - many of us have been silenced by conservative Christianity for so long that we don't even bother to participate in the conversation any more.
  81. b mac from Canada writes: The Liberal Party of Canada & Canadian TelevisionBosses have banned the phrase 'Merry Christmas'. Liberals are now commiting a sin if they say 'Merry Christmas.'
    ...................................................
    So Merry Christmas to the few free Canadians that are left.
  82. Robert McDougall from Mississauga, Canada writes: I think Mr. Valpy is right on. From my own perspective, I feel that Canadians achieved a religious detente in the 1960s -- at the time of the Quiet Revolution -- but I think it started before that: during the War (WWII) and coincided with the movement of people from rural Canada to the cities. For more on this, I have commented in some more detail at:
    http://www.ramacresearch.ca/Demography/BobsBlog/Integration/Integration.htm
  83. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Every time there's a Christian holiday there's a plethora of articles just like this one.... they are getting really tiresome.
  84. Cyrus Of Persia from Canada writes: Canadian Infidel, Dawkins argues, not for an infinite universe--that is, the only universe we know, which is limited by the Big Bang--but, given that limitation, he postulates an infinte number of universes, which is pure conjecture.
  85. John Ishmael from Brampton ON, Canada writes: To all I say: A peaceful, loving Christmas.>>>

    To those who do not practice my faith I say: A peaceful, loving year end as you contemplate your own faith - or lack of any.
  86. Kevin McDougald from Winnipeg, Canada writes: I think Brant Zatterberg and Stephen Ottridge are both on to something. The decline in church attendance has coincided with what was perhaps the single biggest culture shift in Canadian history: the decline of rural and small-town Canada.

    In Canada's early years, 80 percent of Canada's population lived on farms and in small towns. Rural and small-town Canada remained the majority into the early '20s.

    The Great Depression and World War II temporarily slowed the decline of rural and small-town Canada, which still accounted for more than two-fifths of Canada's population well into the '40s.

    But rural and small-town Canada's luck ran out after the end of the war. Canadians started leaving the farms. The populations of the small towns, where the churches were at the centre of social life and people took note of who showed up and didn't show up for Sunday services, fell rapidly. Residents of tight-knit urban neighbourhoods opted for the anonymity of suburban life where, again, there was less peer pressure to attend Sunday services.

    Today, Canada's population is about 80 percent urban and 20 percent rural/small-town: we're the opposite of what we were in 1867. It was a transformation that changed the Canadian way of life forever, including religion's place in our society.
  87. James McGillawee from Oshawa, Canada writes: Royalty and Religion are all wrong. The only proper logical system is moral law. When all scientific evidence and logic is considered, the only conclusion one can come to is that both religion and royalty are the biggest con job that our species has suffered and is continuing to be plagued by followed not far behind by politics.
    When you factor in that DNA analysis that proves there is only one strain not 4 races and that the species is somewhat 'plastic' in response to environmental and food source factors, yet psychologically easily conned by myths and illogical premises, it would appear to be doomed to repeat numerous mistakes repeatedly. Only a serious perceived threat from without may bring about logical corrective measures to ensure survival and greater intellectual progress.
  88. Travlaki Souvlaki from Vancouver, Canada writes: Is Christian Canada dying? Fading away to insignificance, maybe. Let's hope so, anyway.
  89. b mac from Canada writes: James McGillawee from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'Royalty and Religion are all wrong. The only proper logical system is moral law'
    ............................................................................................

    Sorry James but religions are based on moral law. Whewre have you been?
  90. Jesse Winger from Calgary, Canada writes: Losing my religion was so easy. What to make of that?
    I'm still searching for something inside.
  91. CD W from Canada writes: For our female Catholic friends, it is the way of your church. If you disagree, that makes you a Protestant! Go figure.
  92. Joseph Wayland from United States writes: The Christian church is fading away and becoming irrelevant? Finally some truly 'Good News' !
    Unfortunately this isn't happening quickly enough for the students of Halton Catholic District School Board. What a shameful event that is for Canadians - especially those fighting the Taliban for the principles of freedom of opinion and thought.
  93. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: I was raised a strict Catholic but now consider myself an atheist. This article does not surprise me at all. All of my current friends do not attend church regularly, whereas when I was a kid most of my friends and neighbors attended church regularly (in the 60's). I attribute this decline primarily to the rise of our scientific knowledge and understanding of our natural world. Religion was initially formed in part to explain the unexplainable. Hundreds of years ago, when an earthquake occurred and killed people it was God's revenge. Now, we know the cause of natural disasters and can even predict them (e.g. hurricanes). In 2007, we have a much better understanding of evolution, microorganisms, viruses, human disease, medicine, ecological destruction, physics, chemistry... I do not need a priest or pastor or rabbi to tell me how to live my life. I am a humanist. I donate to charity, volunteer in homeless shelters and treat people like I would want to be treated. Some of my beliefs are based on religious teachings, however I see them more as common sense truths and organized religions are not exclusive in generating these ideas. We are all linked together on this planet with every other organism. My understanding and education about our world gives me enormous feelings of awe and inspiration. I do not need a God or Church to tell me what I already know.
  94. globefan EH from Canada writes: I still wonder why we would need a celibate male , in clothes most women would die for ,to interpret anything said by a mystical character with little historical evidence to support his existence let alone what he said.

    Please pass the collection plate and keep these poor people in a style to which they have clearly become accustomed.

    Women know things and virgin birth isn't one of them. Something made up by men who wanted their wives to be as perfect as mother..what is that anyway?

    Imagine..a world without religion or the industry of religion...that works for me.
  95. Rev Ash from Moose Jaw, Canada writes: As a pastor I watch with sadness the decline of the church in Canada, but note with joy the flourishing of the same in many other parts of the world. Many churches have made no attempt to bring their 'offerings' up to a reasonable culutral level, while not accepting a generally immoral culture but living in it and not ignoring it. This is why churches that are more interested in steeples and buildings are slowly dying away.

    Changing culture, newer and more permissive forms of technology and entertainment are also eroding the population of the church. But I would prefer not to be like Quebec where so many identify with the Christian faith but so few practice or observe it. Make a committment and stick with it! I am pleased to be in a church with people, young and old, who truly follow the Christian faith as best they can but only with the aid of God.

    The church in Canada will not die, but yes, it will change, even if it must get smaller in the process. As we realize we must engage culture without falling prey to it, the church will rebound, as it has been doing for 2000 years.

    To those who can accept it, have a Merry Christmas, and not a Happy Holiday.
  96. Kevin Desmoulin from Toronto, Canada writes: No wonder to why the numbers at church has dropped esp among young women, It is the only institution that holds women back from positions of power. I have only the United Church making head way.
    Get with the times.
    This among other things such child abuse, pushing morality on ot