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He ain't creepy, he's my doula

ADRIANA BARTON

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 12:23 PM EDT 08/01/08

Men are taking an interest in prenatal care, but their presence in the delivery room remains controversial ...Read the full article

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  1. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: What gives? If this was in any shape or form an article describing how a woman was marginalized there would be 100 comments already.

    Saying that, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a dude massaging my wife during her childbirth either.
  2. Bonnie Lass from Canada writes: RD...does your wife see a male doctor? Do you know what a pap smear involves? Are you ok with that? I'm not sure I see how a male doula is different from a male doctor. I certainly don't think my gynecologist 'gets off' off performing internal exams. Why would I think that about another male health professional whose job involves touching me?
  3. Chris H from Canada writes: I like the idea of the father having support. I've never given birth, but I suspect that I will know how when the time comes. And when I need help with the basics (barring emergency stuff), I would like my husband to be the one, not a team of nurses, midwives, etc. I like that these men are able to provide fathers with the support to support their birthing partners. Neat idea.

    (and WTF? I am outraged with these men being barred from joining professional organizations. Totally unacceptable, a stupid permutation of feminism... not even feminism AT ALL! We are all in this together)
  4. CD W from Canada writes: nope its creepy if it is not the bio father.
  5. Chris Eaton from Fredericton, NB, writes: Sexism is apparently alive and well.
  6. Larry Hill from Canada writes: I was at the birth of my daughters. Two of the most spiritual moments in my life. I was close by at the birth of my grand daughter (space restrictions in the delivery room) but did not directly attend her birth.

    Far as I am concerned, it would be up to the woman giving birth. Anything that can give her confidence and support during this stressful time is OK by me.
  7. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: The only male that touches my wife is me. The only female that touches me is my wife. It's not sexist, it's just natural laws...
  8. Mary T from Toronto, Canada writes: Lyndon, what happens if your wife needs urgent medical care and the only person able to provide it is a man? I guess you'd rather lose her than have another man touch her, right?
  9. Kay Ay from Canada writes: Society expects the man/dad to be equal in all aspects of child care whether he wants to or not is good at it or not.
    However suspicion pops up when men choose 'caring' professions like doula's, nurses, preschool teachers, even elementary school teachers.

    This is a very confusing message to be sending.
  10. Jim Bradley from Ottawa, Canada writes: Kay Ay - Well said! Society seems to presume all men to be sick and perverted to some degree.
  11. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: I don't know. I suppose it sould be a good thing for fathers to feel there is empahy for them in the delivery rooms and I have had female nurses attending my birth experiences that made me feel like I should 'grin and bear' my labours like a 'good little girl'. But, I am somewhat suspicious of men that take up 'doula-ism'. It's not medical school and it's not nursing. It's far more personal, in a way, and very involved with female energy. It is a little creepy and I agree with Lyndon Tree...
  12. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: Kay Ay:
    The difference is we're not talking about life and death here, we're talking about rub-downs and talk-talk. See, you half to be smarter than that.
  13. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: A good girl says: 'Don't hand me no lines and keep your hands to yourself.'
  14. Marie Lake from Calgary, Canada writes: As a woman who has given birth to three children, I personally find the doula concept to be a bit too 'touchy-feely' for me. If I hadn't had my husband with me, perhaps a doula would have been helpful. But in general, they just seem to be part of a whole mystical female-energy pregnancy culture that just isn't my style. So personally, I would not have wanted any doula with me during childbirth.

    As for the male/female question: I can say that when I ended up in the ER during an early term miscarriage, the male nurse on duty was one of the most supportive and comforting professionals I have come across. He made the experience much better than it could have been, and was definetely more understanding and kind than the female doctor I saw that night.

    So I think it really comes down to the individual. And as the wife of a stay-at-home Dad, and the daughter of a male nurse, I can say first hand that there are certainly men out there more than capable of the kind of caring roles we usually expect women to fill.
  15. rad fem from Toronto, Canada writes: She 'half to be smarter,' does she? Ah, the irony.

    I have no qualms about male doulas and I wouldn't hesitate to use the services of one. Typically we see women getting cramped and crushed by restrictive gender roles by the learned posters on these boards, but I see now that the few men with the cajones to trangress expected gender roles are crushed with equal fervor. I suppose you're all suspicious of anything that falls outside your extremely limited personal experience. You lot must be tons of fun at dinner parties!
  16. Paul B from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'The only male that touches my wife is me. The only female that touches me is my wife. It's not sexist, it's just natural laws...'

    AMEN!
  17. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: rad fem from Toronto, Canada writes:'I have no qualms about male doulas and I wouldn't hesitate to use the services of one. Typically we see women getting cramped and crushed by restrictive gender roles by the learned posters on these boards, but I see now that the few men with the cajones to trangress expected gender roles are crushed with equal fervor. I suppose you're all suspicious of anything that falls outside your extremely limited personal experience. You lot must be tons of fun at dinner parties! ...'

    Well, it's hardly as if a radical feminist is open to ideas either. I'd say probably more boxed in by radicalism than your average moderate type. 'Ah, the irony' indeed.
  18. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: Rad fem: Ooh! Spelling! You're so smart...

    And then the parrot said: 'Wraap, no qualms...wraap, wouldn't hesitate...wraap, cramped and crushed...'

    And the woman repeated: 'Now I lay me down to sleep...'
  19. KAT Man from Canada writes: Lyndon, let's just make sure all women remain barefoot and pregnant, shall we? Get with the program...just as a female can do any job a male can do, a male should have the same opportunity.

    It is a shame we still have dinosaurs such as your self around.
  20. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: Kat Man: Your mythical-genderless roles exist in your mind and where none of the rest of us have been. It's a place where no one ever grows old and no one ever sticks their head in a bucket of ice water.
  21. Mike Z from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Some of the association's members question whether aspiring male doulas are 'sickos who get off on [childbirth],' Ms. O'Callaghan says.

    'In my mind, it's not much different than a male doctor,' Mr. Brandt says.

    I agree 100% with Mr. Brandt. I was right there with my wife during our two daughter's births, and a male Doula would be no more 'creepy' than a male Dr. or Nurse.

    That being said, I did find it uncomfortable having a male Nurse involved. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I would have preferred an all-female crew (including the Doctor).
  22. David Guy from Canada writes: Mike Z. - Yup, you are old-fashioned (not to mention sexist).
  23. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: David Guy: he can't be old-fashioned; in the past there were no female doctors.
  24. Kay Ay from Canada writes: It is actually life or death...childbirth is really dangerous for some women...much to their surprise.
    The perspective of a man who has not 'been through it all' himself and therefore doesn't tell you it'll all be okay would be refreshing.

    Men being gentle and kind should be encouraged and someday it'll be assumed to be true as it is for women (however illogical).
  25. Bindar Dundat from Canada writes:

    Hey Swingers. Your 'natural laws' crack me up! A lesbian Pope is unsuitable for the Holy See. Her fiat is curbed. At least Mary had a donkey to ride.
  26. carol c from Canada writes: 'The only male that touches my wife is me. The only female that touches me is my wife. It's not sexist, it's just natural laws...'

    Obviously you cut each other's hair, do each other's dentistry, give physicals and checkups. You're probably a whiz at a manicure and know how to give a good bikini wax too. You both do massage, tailoring, wouldn't think of hugging your children, let alone breasttfeeding. No hugs, even at funerals for your mother, and certainly no kisses of greeting amongst friends. No handshakes of course, the germs! Not to mention that people of the opposite sex are only after one thing. Yep. That's it.

    This view of the only reason for touch being a sexual one is a big messy disease in your brain. Fix it. Or don't. But the world will pass you by.

    Mike Z it's your wife's body that is exposed in that situation, not yours. Probably she was in too much pain and in too intense a situation to care if the doctor was a cross-dressing hermaphrodite lama with arms as long as they were competent. In short, get over yourself man.
  27. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: carol c- Is childbirth comparable to hair cuts and bikini waxes? Um. No. I still think a male doula is totally creepy but those that want one shouldn't be limited and those that want to be one shouldn't be denied.

    Also, carol c, I agree with your response to Mike Z and hahaha!
  28. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: Lyndon Tree- Good night! You've had a busy day of fighting on these boards, no? Some folks aren't worth the trouble of a response though.
  29. Helen Pettingill from Canada writes: I don't see what difference it makes. I'd be equally happy with a male or female doula. As long as they know what they're doing, who cares? What's the difference between that & a male doctor?
  30. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Seems it's perfectly ok to be sexist idiot so long as the target being discriminated against is male. Well done world.

    There are many men in 'female dominated' professions. That doesn't mean they're creepy, it just means that that particular profession called to them. Male nurses, male midwives, and male doulas (a term I had never heard before). So all the bigots out there can just flush themselves away - equality goes both ways darnit.
  31. Globular Cluster from Canada writes: This doesn't have a lot to do with the article but...
    In some cultures male nurses are more common than here...it comes from the days where most people lived in rural places that weren't well-served by doctors: nurses did most procedures and they tended to be male. Women typically were restricted to the midwifery specialty.
  32. carol c from Canada writes: What exactly is creepy about a male doula? What makes them creepy and a male ob/gyn not creepy? Birthing is absolutely fascinating and after witnessing it something profound changes. Why wouldn't a man be affected by that just as much as a woman? Why is there still this sexual overtone to the birthing process? Women's bodies are designed from this from different hip structure to different pain responses to wider hips. Why is the most natural thing a woman's body can do so loaded with taboo in our society?
  33. John Silverman from Canada writes: Wow I can't believe these comments. So much sexism and suspicion of men. Honestly I don't see what the big deal is. Why can't you have a male doula? It wouldn't bother me. In fact I might even prefer it.

    Women (rightfully) cry if men try to exclude them from anything, now people are trying to exclude men? Go figure. Maybe there is no such thing as misogeny and it's all just human nature? I hope not.
  34. Lyndon Tree from Toronto, Canada writes: It seems some people have a charley-horse in between their ears. Men and Woman are not EXACTLY the same. If you cannot see that you are either dishonest or blind or something else...? Most men just shrug their shoulders and accept this; but for some women this is hard to accept.
  35. Mike Z from Saskatoon, Canada writes: carol c -- you ask "Why is there still this sexual overtone to the birthing process?". It's simple Carol -- it is because the birthing process involves the woman's genitalia, which at every other time in her adult life is a sexual organ. To decry people for having trouble changing their view of what is sexual, knowing that shortly after the birth they will go right back to the standard view, is foolish.

    I asked my wife, and she couldn't care less during child-birth, for exactly the reason you mentioned earlier. That being said, she also agrees with me in that she finds a male ob/gyn creepy.
  36. Likes Cleavage from seinesville, Canada writes: Check any research and you will find two things.
    1. Doulas are unregulated, so I could be one starting today.
    2. All studies show that having a Doula present has the same result as any person there for support.
  37. whatevah D from Canada writes: Mike Z from Saskatoon, Canada writes: I asked my wife, and she couldn't care less during child-birth, for exactly the reason you mentioned earlier. That being said, she also agrees with me in that she finds a male ob/gyn creepy.

    some women do; I for one don't find a male ob/gyn creepy. I've had several. .

    having said that, I don't want anyone giving me rubs during childbirth. I didn't even want my hubby to. He was in the room with me, encouraging me, but I really didn't want to be touched.

    I think it's a personal choice whether you insist on a femal ob/gyn or doula... but I don't think men shouldn't be allowed for women who are comfortable with it.
  38. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: Bonnie Lass: I think the difference between what I consider routine procedures and moments worth remembering. Do I care if her stylist, doctor, dentist, cab driver, etc is male? No. Because you'll forget all that stuff in a year or two anyway. A childbirth is however, something you remember and will talk about. I don't want one of those moments to be of some dude touching my wife.

    Furthermore I never said that they were creepy or that they would 'get off' in any way.
  39. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: A doula is not a medical assistant. Why are folks comparing the role of a doula to that of a doctor or a nurse?

    I agree with Lyndon Tree. If people do not even acknowledge that men and women are different, then why would so many people be on this board fighting on the point of male doulas?
  40. ELM now from Toronto, Canada writes: I didn't want to be touched during childbirth. I wouldn't hire a doula for me. My Midwives covered everything I needed. But I could see how a male doula would have been handy for my husband during our first child's birth.

    It's disappointing that people are hung up on what sex the doula is. I don't mind if the daycare is run by a guy or my OB/GYN is male etc... More importantly, do they do a good job?
  41. ELM now from Toronto, Canada writes: "Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: A doula is not a medical assistant. Why are folks comparing the role of a doula to that of a doctor or a nurse?

    I agree with Lyndon Tree. If people do not even acknowledge that men and women are different, then why would so many people be on this board fighting on the point of male doulas?"

    Of course men and women are different. Which is why they bring something new and different to offer in roles. I'm sure a male doula would have a hard time pulling off mystic goddess energy. lol But I'm sure they can still be sensitive and bring their own unique attributes to the role of doula.
  42. carol c from Canada writes: Who exactly stated that men and women are the same? I don't read that anywhere. Men and women are obviously different, but what exactly does that have to do with male healthcare workers? I still don't really understand what is strange or uncomfortable about a male being interested in birthing. Of course, to each their own, people need to make choices they are comfortable with. I'd just like to understand the why of it, and no one seems to be able to explain that.
  43. H. M. from Calgary, Canada writes: Progress takes time! Isn't that the argument that was used as to why it took so long for women to get the vote and why we still see so few woman as the heads of corporations? If the second wave of the women's movement started in the mid70's, lets look at the number of male doulas in 30 years before we start saying this is sexism against men. Society will come around as well the organizations.
  44. Miss Lady from Canada writes: Might work out okay for some, but the 2 most horrible, rude, insensitive and rough ob/gyns I have ever had were male - one for a simple pap smear, the other for a miscarriage. I will never go to a male doctor when there is a choice.
    As if giving birth wasn't tough enough, then the nurse, ob/gyn, pediatrician and anaesthesiologist all come with their students. Heaven help you if a shift change occurs during labour! No way would I be hiring yet another stranger to be present at a time like that.
    My husband was useless in the delivery room, my mother was great. The role of the doula is well filled by my mother. Lucky me!
  45. bethany middleton from Canada writes: RD Lone: if your wife had given birth even as recently as 30 years ago, there would most definitely have been 'some dude touching [your] wife'...even today, the majority of ob/gyn's are male.

    As for memories. My memories are that there was pain, lots of it, and there was a comforting voice (my midwife's), two comforting presences (my midwife and my partner) and then there was no pain. What I don't remember at all is that the room was - during both my labours - filled with various medical personnel, including ob/gyns (female in my case; luck of the draw based on who was on call), nurses etc, because of the high riskness of my deliveries. They faded while I was in labour; they are not in my memories.

    And honestly, it's not about your* memories: it's your wife's show. You're an appendage, and almost useless at that. There's nothing you can really do except for be there for her. And they are her memories. And if a male doctor or male doula provides enriching memories for her, then who are you to say otherwise?

    That said, I prefer all females myself. But I would never begrudge another woman her birth choice. And it is *her     choice. She's the one doing the 'heavy lifting'; she's the one who may need reconstructive surgery, who may have to have an emergency c-section, who may need oxygen, pain relief, care, nurturing, concern, back rubs, etc. In the drama of birth, you're a spectator.
  46. Likes Cleavage from seinesville, Canada writes: Bethany, you sound like a bitter midlifer.
  47. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: These days it seems nothing is creepy...
  48. A M from Victoria, Canada writes: I think it's just fine, very fine indeed, if men become doulas/midwives. Good for them -- the profession is elevated by diversity. Why on earth should that be a problem? If he's good, he's good. I don't insist that my health care workers have the same bodies, experiences, or gender as I do. There are female doctors/midwives/etc. who have never had children -- would that be a prerequisite to using them during childbirth?

    The creepy part is the jealousy/possessiveness that seems to have invaded the brains of some commenters here: your wife is giving birth and you're concerned about "some dude" touching her? Is that really what you'd focus on?! Now that seems a bit creepy.

    It's fair enough to choose the provider that you want, for whatever reason. 'Nuff said, really.
  49. Allen Trimmings from Tacoma, United States writes: To me for a man to do this kind of work it does show a level of concer, and passion. When are we going to realize that anyone can do any kind of work and not ahve any ill intent behind it. Why can't a man do what a woman does, and a woman do the same job that a man does? We need to come to reality that everyone brings something different and unique to the table. Having men as DULAS brings something special to the tables. You are actually getting a two for one. Support for both parents. For years the suport has been just for the mothers and the fathers have not really had any. This can prove very important for those first time fathers. Now as for professions that society feels women would just scream or not allow men come near them, or not a place for men has become a myth. Isay this because I have been a Sexual Assault Advocate for 5 years, and I have never had a woman scream at me or refuse to see me. See society feels since men are 98% of the cause of violence agains woman and children we can't do this work, and I say you are wrong. We need men to stp up and say we care, we are compassion, we can be supportive, and we can show you that there are men who care. I think people need to get their head out of the sand and realize we need to support each other in any and every way we can. An by the way I have taken the DULA Course as well!!!
  50. maybe later from Calgary, Canada writes: I agree with Allen. Men in these care-giving roles can do nothing but help break down barriers and change our society. Men working in the health profession make wonderful role models for our sons. I don't want my son or daughter to think they can't do anything they choose if they have a passion to make a difference. We need both men and women to occupy roles in health care counseling so that we get a balanced perspective.

    I would be happy to see that macho, sexist, non-emotional stereotype of men go by the wayside.

    And, sexual offenders come in both genders. How do you know your female doula or obgyn isn't having "creepy" thoughts about your wife's parts? You husbands are simply threatened in a caveman way about another man being near your women at her most vulnerable. Yeah, she might fall in love with her male doula and run off with him. Get real and get over it.
  51. Blind InTheSun from Canada writes: Ok people. A doula isn't there to catch the baby or ogle mommy bits. HE would be there to talk softly to the mother, massage her, comfort her, reassure her. There is nothing medical here it's all about emotional support and reassurance. So IT IS EVEN CREEPIER that some guy wants to make a career out of being the emotional crutch of a vulnerable woman (in the midst of being revealed emotionally and physically to the greatest extent of her life) that is not married to him. But whatever. To each their own... But it's still CREEPY people. A doula is not medical personnel!
  52. Chris H from Canada writes: I always thought a doula was there to make sure the over-zealous c-section mafia doesn't start cutting unless it's actually necessary. And to give the couple tools to allow the labour to progress naturally (that is, at it's own pace, without intervention). I'm not so sure that whispering sweet nothings and ogling lady-parts is in the job description. Therefore, how is man unqualified?

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