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RICHARD FLORIDA VISITS THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO

No ivory tower on this campus

PETER SCOWEN

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 5:31 PM EDT 16/01/08

Toronto's top academic institution blends seamlessly into city centre ...Read the full article

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  1. D Mores from GTA, Canada writes: This Richard Florida reminds me of the architecture critics of the 1980's who talked about how architecture integrates with the fabric of a city. The only difference now is that instead of talking about architecture, people such as Florida are including other artistic and intellectual topics in their discourse to entertain people.

    It's sort of like Christopher Hume meets Douglas Copeland in a faculty club.

    And I say, "so what?" It's light reading trying to suggest there is something deep here that will have economic and social implications. I don't buy it.
  2. recalcitrant civilian from Canada writes: The main library is one of the most interesting and wonderful buildings at the University of Toronto. The Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library in particular is a tremendously beautiful building. Why such editorial sniping?
  3. Kevin Desmoulin from TO, Canada writes: Ya U of T, pretty cool.
  4. robert quinn from Japan writes: I really don't understand this. The Globe hires some crypto-academic to pen booster copy lauding Toronto as a place people should love living in (unless they have school-age children bereft of small arms training). This is because--according to the advertising bumf--he's single-handedly "unleashed the creative class" in cities all over North America. I didn't even know they were tied up. Had I known, I might well have unleashed them myself. Well, no, that's a lie. I'd have tasered them senseless. But that's me. Anything for a cheap laugh. (Maybe there's a monthly column in that. I could go around chaining members of the "creative class" to lampposts or idling taxicabs, and "Chad" would wander by later and free them. Or not, should the cars have attracted custom in the meantime.) Still, why the newsroom inferiority declaration? That's the poser.
  5. Don Micheals from Canada writes: What do Richard Florida and Brian Mulroney have in common?
    Well they are both...errr...Creative????
  6. Frank Godfrey from Canada writes: Robert Quinn , really now, Florida is doing a series on the parts of Toronto that that contribute to the sum. A useful exercise in any major city. Your comment about the " booster copy ", and, " small arms training " indicates you have nothing at all to contribute to this conversation. What axe are you grinding, by the way ?
  7. marlene gregory from Toronto, Canada writes: University of Toronto is an oasis of Peace....I walk through the campus every chance I get ...Kings College Circle, University College back campus, Philosophers Walk, Victoria College campus...all gems. I am grateful to the Educated and the Wise who seek to preserve its beauty in the center of the urban financial frenzy called Toronto.
  8. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Interesting.

    Okay, here are your report cards.

    Frank Godfrey, you get an "F". Seriously, you weirdly decide to pick on the best post on this board? Your opponent, as he intended, has readers rolling on the floor laughing at the Globe and Mail's goofiness in this matter, and in response you try to claim he has nothing to contribute? A flat "F", dude, that is your grade.

    Robert Quinn, you get an "A". Yours was the most funny post written today. With its advertsing for Richard Florida, the Globe and Mail has practically painted a "kick me" sign on its own backside, and you have risen to the needed task, delivering a hundred-newton-force blow right where it was deserved. For crying out loud, the Globe's advertisements for this academic made it ridiculously look as if the Second Coming had arrived in the form of an urban studies dweeb. Bravo for saying what needed to be said.
  9. Angus S Miskers from rainy Victoria, Canada writes: I am ambivalent about U of T, as an alumnus. Yes, it is more integrated into the city and has been multicultural longer than most schools, but it still has this weird 'college' organization. When you go to U of T, you don't apply to U of T. You apply to attend one of its colleges. These colleges are still aligned by religious affiliation with their own separate residences, and thus the school perpetuates a kind of segregation that belies its multicultural aspirations. I will say it was very convenient getting off the U of T campus for great chinese food, to see a movie or go shopping - most other univerisities are so isolated you need a bus pass or a car to escape the stifling school atmosphere.
  10. Bob Fugger from Victoria, BC, Canada writes: My favourite part of this article is when it started talking about how UofT wasn't elitest. Right. I have no qualms about a school with high academic standards, but you can't hold your students for ransom (especially tuition for professional degrees such as law & medicine) and call the institution egalitarian.

    Richard Florida disproved the title of this article by proving that he is walled up in his ivory tower and can't see elitism even if he is surrounded by 68 square hectares of it.

    And shame on the Globe for printing this self-serving piece of crap article.
  11. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: From the article: "You have an urban university a couple of kilometres from the main financial city core, accessible on foot, by subway, by mass transit, in a real neighbourhood with functioning shops and residences where people live, work, learn and play,” Richard Florida says ...."

    Sorry, but I don't see anthing at all profound or particularly insightful about this comment. You need to be a world-renouned univesity professor to make this kind of an observation?
  12. Kevin Desmoulin from TO, Canada writes: I would agree, he is not telling anyone anything new.
    But it is good to hear what someone who is new to our city thinks of it.
    From my experience if you ever get tired of living in Toronto,
    go visit some where for a bit.
  13. Josh Gould from Canada writes: As a further counterpoint, Florida's contention that UofT's situation in the downtown core is particularly unique cannot stand without challenge - McGill and Concordia occupy similar locations, as do Dalhousie and St. Mary's in Halifax.
  14. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: Josh Gould from Canada writes: "As a further counterpoint, Florida's contention that UofT's situation in the downtown core is particularly unique cannot stand without challenge - McGill and Concordia occupy similar locations, as do Dalhousie and St. Mary's in Halifax."

    As does the University of Ottawa in Ottawa and Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo. The article was a trifling Toronto-centric. I say this as a former U of T student.
  15. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Having done 3 university degrees an U of T I wish I could agree with the innovation claim. Unless things have changed dramatically in the last 15 years the claim seems weak.

    The university is world famous for its English Department, Drama program, and Theological School, none aim at "innovation". Its Business School is perceived to be second to Western. Its Medical School is behind Queens and McMaster. Its Physics lags UBC. In computer studies, Waterloo outshines all.

    In the 1990s I sat for 3 years on a Committee that disburses research funds to Mechanical Engineering Graduate programs. I did note that relatively more research papers come out of Concordia University (that for long time had a one building campus in downtown Montreal). On the whole, at least in Engineering, Quebec universities surpassed the University of Toronto in research and innovation.

    The University of Toronto should be recognized for what it does best - produce a large percentage of nation's leaders and bureaucrats. And that is no mean achievement. U of T is undoubtedly one of the top universties in the world.
  16. Frank Godfrey from Canada writes:

    Tyler Williams, I will repeat - Florida's article is but one of a series of articles on aspects of Toronto, yes Toronto. Many have posted that other cities have important universities near downtown cores, and rightly so. Certainly not unique to Toronto. What strikes me is the negativity toward Toronto.
  17. F I from Tornoto, Canada writes: While its nice to read about UT, I wish to clarify certain claims. As a University of Chicago graduate, I can tell its not in the middle of a ghetto. While the south side of Chicago is not as safe as many other neighborhoods, but it is still a good place to live and most students live close to the university in the south side. I also wish the author did not take cheap shots at so called elite universities of the US. Sure the tutions is high at these institutions, but most students receive scholarships/waiver etc and pay not more than state universities.
  18. Journey Man from Canada writes: UofT is simply a big business who sees their students as "funding units".

    OK, here is the scam: One semester tuition = $2500 (min). One semester transfer funding from Ontario government = $4000 per student. Five courses per semester for about 150 hrs total lecture time.

    That works out to $43/hr.

    Step 2: Cram 500 undergrads into a lecture theater, and it works out to over $21,500 per hr. Your costs are one prof ($200/hr and a couple of underpaid TA's, plus a room rental).

    Step 3: Whine to the government that you are going broke and you need more money.

    Compare those figures to George Brown College or one of the highschools (it works out to less than $500/hr of funding).

    Of course the focus on undergraduate education has been virtually lost as they persue the next big scam: (Step 4) Research Grants!
    Now that is excellence in education!
  19. InExileThank God from United States writes: "As a further counterpoint, Florida's contention that UofT's situation in the downtown core is particularly unique cannot stand without challenge - McGill and Concordia occupy similar locations, as do Dalhousie and St. Mary's in Halifax"

    Nothing like a good old bit of Canadian regionalism like the above. He lives in Toronto and writes a blog about, you guessed it, Toronto. Get over it.

    I dread the day I ever have to return to Canada and put up with Canadians and their boring provincialism and petty regionalism. Toronto isolates you from it a bit (because no one there gives a crap) but having to endure the rest of the country on any sort of trip is daunting and exhausting at best. Grow up or split up.
  20. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: InExileThank God from United States writes: "I dread the day I ever have to return to Canada and put up with Canadians and their boring provincialism and petty regionalism. Toronto isolates you from it a bit (because no one there gives a crap) but having to endure the rest of the country on any sort of trip is daunting and exhausting at best. Grow up or split up."

    Perhaps you should learn something about the rest of the country prior to posting such uninformed comments.
  21. robert quinn from Japan writes: Frank Godfrey. I guess if I have an axe to grind, it's that Jane Jacobs is barely cold in the ground and we're suddenly graced with another "Toronto-works-look-at-all-the-colourful-multitudes-rubbing-along-in-prosperous-harmony!" urban expert ladling out what seems like boilerplate observations (as other posters have noted). By now we've all heard that to be successful in this new century, cities should be primarily composed of bohemians, immigrants, homosexuals and, evidently, consultants. Being none of the above leaves me out in the cold. Maybe I should write a book that rehabilitates redneck lumberjacks. What do you think? A paid blog in it down the road?
  22. Frank Godfrey from Canada writes: Robert Quinn, you've found your niche. You'll probably have to get your book published in Toronto though.
  23. Josh Gould from Canada writes: "As does the University of Ottawa in Ottawa and Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo. The article was a trifling Toronto-centric. I say this as a former U of T student."

    UW and Laurier are actually quite far from what passes for a downtown in Waterloo and altogether distant from Kitchener's core.

    "Nothing like a good old bit of Canadian regionalism like the above. He lives in Toronto and writes a blog about, you guessed it, Toronto. Get over it.

    "I dread the day I ever have to return to Canada and put up with Canadians and their boring provincialism and petty regionalism. Toronto isolates you from it a bit (because no one there gives a crap) but having to endure the rest of the country on any sort of trip is daunting and exhausting at best. Grow up or split up."

    First off, I am from Toronto. Second, it is hardly an example of "petty regionalism" or "provincialism" to point out that Florida has evidently never journeyed to cities like Halifax or Montreal to see that most of his comments about TO and UofT apply there as well. Dalhousie, for example, is a couple blocks away from the major shopping area of downtown Halifax.
  24. Paul Wallnutz from Ontario, Canada writes: Journeyman. What is your point? Is it that UofT is over-funded, or that other forms of post-secondary education like George Brown College are underfunded in comparison?
  25. B I from Toronto, Canada writes: University of Toronto is beautiful and it is simply the best designed urban Canadian university in the best Canadian city. Most of those who criticize it have never walked through the unusually green campus or sat through a lecture at many of its gorgeous buildings. If you can go to the Graham Library at the Munk Centre and not fall in love with it, you may want to check to see if you have a soul. If you can stand at front campus on a fall day and not understand what a real university is supposed to look like, you are clearly missing something. I went to UofT, loved it, always will.

    Oh and posters above, please don't compare downtown Toronto to so-called "downtowns" of Ottawa, Halifax, Waterloo and God knows what other one horse town passes for a city in the heads of regionalist twits.
  26. Journey Man from Ontario, Canada writes: Wallnutz: I guess I'm just fed-up with hearing about all of the 'wonderful' things going on at the universities. The reality is that a very large proportion of their graduates never find related work (especially from the 'arts' programs); how many? Who knows because they afraid of tracking these stats!

    There is no pedagogical basis for the poor funding of the colleges in comparision to the universities. The government is essentially saying that an undergrad at UofT studying political science is simply 'worth' more than a college student studying for a career oriented position such as a Early Childhood education or Construction Engineering Technology.

    People have to start asking themselves if a university education is all that it is cracked up to be. Why are we paying so much into a system that gives society back such poor returns in comparison to the college system?
  27. gloria garvey from Canada writes: I didn't go to U of T but did grow up close to it and enjoyed seeing its buildings and grounds which made a great place to walk through on the way to somewhere else in the city. Beats hands down SFU and UBC, natural settings notwithstanding.
  28. Keith who is from Ottawa, Canada writes: I read this article and I kind of enjoyed it. I agree with the other posters that there isn't anything especially new here, but maybe some ideas that are worth repeating. Robert quinn from japan, the downtown lower-east-side of Vancouver is actually a neighborhood that was started up by redneck lumberjacks. The reason you have so many rooming houses and motels down there is because lumbermen north of the city used to go there on their days off for some R & R and partying. After the lumber industry cut down enough trees that they were too far from Vancouver to go there on their days off, they left it to the addicts. Now most redneck lumberjacks have cabins in the woods where they sit around with their friends eating beef jerky and drinking beer, getting themselves constipated, shooting at things and complain about how the world is such a terrible place because not everybody agrees with their views on homosexuality and gun control. I think that suburbia is a blight on the landscape and that those types of communities will eventually die as the price of gasoline rises and the ever-expanding highway construction becomes to cost-prohibitive to cash-strapped municipalities. Urban cores and downtown areas that have been neglected over the last few decades will experience a renaissance as baby-boomers retire and trade their old houses for smaller lodgings walking distance from the services they need. As mentioned earlier, the price of gas and longer and longer commuting times every morning and night will also help accelerate this process.
  29. Andrew Watt from Ireland writes: How much does Doctor Florida get paid to write these articles?
  30. Paul Wallnutz from Canada writes: Journeyman: I see your point. My three daughters all got a BA's (one at UofT, one at Queens, and one at Laurier) and none of them have found permanent positions related to their education. They were going to become teachers, but now they have been told not to bother...no positions available. Now one is working as a retail sales clerk, one as a receptionist, and the other one has gone back to school at Humber College. University has been a huge waste for my familty (both in time and financially). Many of my friends and just about all of their friends have had the same experience.

    I've done some research on the funding differential too ( see http://www.collegesontario.org/Client/CollegesOntario/CollegesOntarioLP4WLNDWebStation.nsf/resources/Strong People Build a Strong Economy/$file/COSTRONGPEOPLEBUILDSTRONG_ECONOMY.pdf ). On page 16 the per student funding from Ontario for colleges is only about 75% of the universities.

    Their is quite a shortage in fields like trades and technology, and not every kid is cut-out for university education, or should go.
    -
  31. Kevin Desmoulin from TO, Canada writes: gloria garvey from Canada writes: I didn't go to U of T but did grow up close to it and enjoyed seeing its buildings and grounds which made a great place to walk through on the way to somewhere else in the city. Beats hands down SFU and UBC, natural settings notwithstanding.

    I think this is what we getting at, We have to walk through it, Everyone. So it open to more people. It be interesting to do a study to see if the placement of institutions? you know Add the questions here.

    I always knew it You go there what is this place? where I go? giant library, all the students and educators, the whole things leads one to think. A very strong environment
  32. Devonnay Stratton from Ottawa, writes: B I from Toronto, Canada: "University of Toronto is beautiful and it is simply the best designed urban Canadian university in the best Canadian city."

    Do you not realize that this is why people don't like Torontonians? We're prigs (I say this as a Torontonian of over 19 years)! We think our city, our institutions, everything Toronto is the best that can be had. I'm surprised that a U of T alumnus could be so ignorant. And I have "walked through the unusually green campus." I decided it wasn't for me, given that I value the education I receive over the surroundings in which I receive them (I am not saying that the education U of T provides is in any way inferior to any other university, merely that education is more important than what the campus resembles, get your priorities straight.) I know what a "real" university looks like, because I attend one. It has similarities and differences but I beg you not to compare Toronto and U of T to other campuses and "downtowns" because I'll bet you haven't even been there. Otherwise you would realize that each city and each university has its own merits. Maybe some cities don't have a real downtown, but that's the charm of it. Maybe each university isn't as "prestigious" as U of T, but maybe those who attend them have other values when it comes to education. Regionalist twits? That's you. You're obsessed with yourself and your school and your city and couldn't give a damn about anyone else. That's why everyone hates Torontonians. They're exactly like you.
  33. Frank Godfrey from Canada writes: Devonnay Strattan, you write, in response to B. I., " That's why everyone hates Torontonians. They're exactly like you ". I am not a Torontonian, and I certainly don't hate Torontonians. Your ridiculous statement makes you the " regional twit ", doesn't it.
  34. David Simon from Canada writes: Two words: Robarts Library
  35. Devonnay Stratton from Ottawa, writes: I'm sorry, perhaps I should rephrase what I wrote as:
    "That's why many people don't like Torontonians."
    Thank you Frank Godfrey for not hating Torontonians. I am afraid you are one of the few who don't. Thanks for your feedback.
  36. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: B I from Toronto, Canada writes: "...don't compare downtown Toronto to so-called "downtowns" of Ottawa, Halifax, Waterloo and God knows what other one horse town passes for a city in the heads of regionalist twits."

    Devonnay Stratton from Ottawa is bang on with rebutting BI's obvious uninformed and ignorant rant. Push the right buttons and the veneer is exposed to present the real face.

    Actually, the Glendon College campus of York University located on the edge of the Don Valley in eastern North York is a much prettier campus in the Toronto area. Another place for Dr Florida to visit.
  37. Josh Gould from Canada writes: "Oh and posters above, please don't compare downtown Toronto to so-called "downtowns" of Ottawa, Halifax, Waterloo and God knows what other one horse town passes for a city in the heads of regionalist twits."

    While Waterloo may be a suburban appendage of Kitchener, your comments reveal who indeed is the real twit. I love TO and always will, but there are other interesting places to live and work in this country - thankfully.
  38. Martin A from Regina, Canada writes: I was kind of amazed at the author claim that "It's the fact that it has a world-class university that is a seamless part of its geography. There are very few cities and universities in the world that can say that."

    I'm really curious about how many universities in the world has this person visited. Being a university professor, I've been at many universities in Canada, USA, Brazil, Argentina, Spain, France, Italy, Denmark, China. The absolute majority of them (the exception being the USA) are more or less downtown (real downtown, I don't really think that UofT is "downtown") and they all are a "seamless part" of the local geography.
  39. W. F. Wall from Mexico writes: To InExileThank God I say that here is an
    obvious pot calling the kettle. The whole USA is
    filled with regionalism where the bulk of
    the population is unaware and out of touch
    with what is happening in the rest of the
    world. Only the arrogant ruling elite
    really know what's happening and it isn't
    pretty, thanks to them. Enjoy your delusional
    exile.
  40. Ev Miller from Toronto, Canada writes: I never imagined a fluffy article about UofT would elicit such cranky responses - or any responses... but I guess its Sunday morning and people have time on their hands. I read the article because I'm currently attending UofT. I have visited/attended several other universities and have to agree that there is something special about the way the university is situated downtown. If you're coming out of the provincial legislature you're likely to see the neurological institute or the science library. If you're walking up through Chinatown you're staring at the rather imposing 1 Spadina Cresent building. If you're in the Annex and walk down Bloor to catch a flick at the Varsity you pass by the beautiful buidlings of the awards office and the Faculty of Music. If you're walking your dog through Queen's Park you are surrounded by the campus. Non-students have reason to wander through the school as they run their daily errands and the sprawling nature of the campus means that you can be in quite different parts of the city and suddenly be immersed in the university. But does this integration affect how people view the city or, as Florida seems to suggest, view the world? I think that the university's location means that students may be on campus for class but they spend far more time in the city than students living on more isolated, self-contained campuses. And student's from around the world come here to study so the many neighbourhoods surrounding the campus get the benefit of this diversity. There is also a diversity of subjects being studied -- one can be in a coffee-shop with students pouring over diagrams of cell structures on one side and students pouring over art history books on the other. And I would like to believe that seeing the buildings that house the people dedicated to curing diseases, building better machines, or learning other cultures is a bit inspiring. But, I'm a student so I'm a little biased.
  41. Josh Gould from Canada writes: My last comment on this, but I'll add that Florida seems completely out of touch with the student experience at UofT. While the downtown location is certainly nice, a great many students (especially undergraduates) commute from elsewhere in the GTA - if there is any school in Canada which is more impersonal and, often, isolating than UofT, I have yet to visit it. For my part, I attended a small, mostly undergraduate school in Nova Scotia - the university dominates the small town it's in and the local community is almost seamlessly integrated with campus life. Now, I do quite like the UofT campus - the neo-gothic architecture, quiet paths, and, certainly, the location near the heart of the city. But that doesn't mean that being a UofT student is quite as nice (much less as social!) as Florida seems to believe.
  42. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: Josh Gould from Canada writes: "I do quite like the UofT campus - the neo-gothic architecture, quiet paths, and, certainly, the location near the heart of the city. But that doesn't mean that being a UofT student is quite as nice (much less as social!) as Florida seems to believe."

    I agree. I attended a small university campus for my undergrad degree and my first stint at grad studies was at the U of T. Frankly, I found it alienating and very impersonal even though there were only 40 students in my program. Subsequently, further grad studies at smaller institutions has been much more fruitful.
  43. Joel Wood from Surrey, BC, writes: For an article about the UofT campus you would think the author would've used a little bit of caution when naming UofT alumni. John Kenneth Galbraith was the first listed as a UofT alumni, despite never attending the downtown UofT campus. He had a UofT undergraduate degree in economics awarded through Ontario Agricultural College in Guelph.
  44. Louise Pharand Doren from Toronto, Canada writes: I studied at U of T, and enjoyed it visually especially the Gothic revival buildings. It has spread (perhaps too far!) across organically indeed, starting I believe with Victoria College so it would have a way of blending in. As per its world class status, I don't recall it being in the top 10, however McGill was. I'm very happy I got my education from both and that Victoria University was flexible enough to make my transition home seamless. The claim that it harks back to a "college" system overlooks its great adaptability.
  45. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: Interesting comment, Ev Miller. More insightful, in fact, than anything Richard Florida said in this article.
  46. Frank Godfrey from Canada writes: Louise Pharand Doren, as many of the posters are keen to protest, be very careful using terms like " world class ". And Joel Wood, do you remember what J. K. Galbraith had to say about his undergraduate experience at the University of Guelph. As a graduate of that school myself, I think he could have been a little nicer.
  47. Tim Kiladze from Mississauga, Canada writes: As much as I appreciate Florida's and the Globe's attempt to bolster U of T and Toronto, I don't buy into it. Sorry if I sound a bit mordant, but being a Canadian, I would never move down to New York or Philadelphia and attempt to make similar inane comments about Penn or Columbia after living in those cities for such a short period of time. Having lived in Toronto and Montreal my entire life, however, I know the real truth about U of T. Its campus is too wide and spread out; there isn't a collegial atmosphere because most students are from immigrant families who strongly advocate individual hard work; tuition is rising but the value of education isn't; the school produces a number of stellar students, but the majority of its overwhelming 80,000 students get lost in the pack. Admittedly, I'm probably a bit biased because I went to McGill. But look at it as an example vs. U of T: tuition is lower, the campus is closed allowing for a close-knit feeling, the school is 1/3 the size of U of T, and the campus is across the street from the downtown core (not a subway ride away). Now, I'm not saying that U of T is a bad school by any means, just don't write about it as if it's a gift from god. The tag lines about the creative class are fancy, but add some real substance to what's being said.
  48. Birdy Num, Num from Canada writes: Tyler Williams you get a C for providing the right answer and for stating the obvious. Quinn's post is by far the best post here - oops I stated the obvious.
  49. ELM now from Toronto, Canada writes: It's a shame people dislike TO so much. I've lived half my life in London (UK) and the other half in TO. I've attended UofT. I like this city and enjoyed UofT. I feel more comfortable in large cities. I can engage people or not come up on anyone's radar as the mood strikes me. I found my short stints in smaller cities and the countryside disorientating.

    People outside of London have a tendency to dislike London and Londoners alike just as much as those outside of TO dislike the city and it's people. It's bigger, contains largest financial institutions and by sheer volume is bound to elicite more attention (or blogs).

    I think that when someone refers to world class, that they mean not just quality, but size. For smaller cities and universities while quality is definitely attainable, much more effort has to be made to stand out on the world stage. Some of us prefer a larger campus. And yes, I have visited other Canadian Cities (as well as US and European).
  50. Cameron Reid from Toronto, Canada writes: You know, the responses to this article are more interesting than the article itself.

    The main thing that we learn here is that the RoC still jumps on the 'hate Toronto' bandwagon given the slightest oppertunity.

    The really funny thing about that is for all the anger, vitrol, and bile they waste on it, Torontonians don't really care- we have better things to do. We gave up on expecting any gratitude for funding their Federal transfer payments a long time ago.
  51. Dave Kuperman from San Luis Obispo, CA, United States writes: It may be true that there are other well-situated campuses in Canada, but I thought the article made it clear that the comparison, on the whole, was with US cities. And I'd have to say way more colleges/universities in the US are located away from large cities, hence the ubiquity of the "college town". Many residents of Toronto can therefore get educated in their own city - with the downside of course that many students live with their parents, commute, and participate very little in student life. Having said that, life on a campus in the middle of a large city can be a great experience. And yes, I think that Toronto really is a tolerant and harmonious city - despite occasional acts of violence and studies showing racism or rising poverty, the city shows none of the racial tension, inequality, and angry conservative attitudes seen daily in most of the US. I graduated from U of T in 2003, went to grad school in California, and now live and work in a smallish town in California. I have to admit the student experience was sometimes lacking at U of T - but it was more the 2000-student biology/psychology lecture sections, the lack of regard for each of their students, and the privileged/spoiled attitudes of certain colleges (still not nearly as bad as what I see here), and definitely not the central location of the campus. I enjoyed my grad school experience, although it was also in a small town, because it was in a place as liberal and as open-minded as Toronto.
  52. Renita Sharma from New York, Canada writes: As a proud UofT grad, I'd like to defend the school against some of the non-architectural criticisms leveled against it. For one, UofT may be three times bigger than McGill, but it has three campuses - there are actually roughly the same number of students (30,000) at McGill and at UofT's downtown (St George) campus. As for the value of my (liberal arts) education, I'm currently pursuing a post-graduate degree in the US and have found the name does mean something here. The size criticism is also unfounded; UofT's downtown campus takes ten minutes to cross and is miniscule compared to the sprawl of UBC. Finally, I'll defend the college system to the end! It's one of the only ways of counteracting the isolationism to which commuting students are subject.
    But one comment on the architecture - how could the video not feature Trinity or Victoria Colleges? The look at "campus" focused solely on the west side, and barely strayed off St. George St!
  53. DV P from Toronto and Montreal, Canada writes: I grew up in Toronto but have spent my adult years in Montreal. I have a bit of an axe to grind with UofT myself.

    Growing up in Toronto, I was from one of those crazed immigrant families that do nothing but kill wholesome Canadian babies, tear apart the social fabric of Canada and so on and so forth. I even went to a high school where gasp!, white people were the overwhelming minority. Of course you can imagine that going to such a school meant that I spent my youth shooting up on heroin and burning churches.

    Anyways, that's all besides the point. My beef with UofT stems from a presentation they put at my school the year I graduated. Some woman came by to do a presentation on the school and in an auditorium full of kids (mostly from immigrant families) the first words out of her mouth where: "Most of you won't make it to UofT".
  54. Paul Wallnutz from Canada writes: DV P from Toronto and Montreal: "Most of you won't make it to UofT"

    This could actually be the best thing said to them (read my post above). These kids should go out and find an apprenticship into a skilled trade where there are actually jobs available. If my daughters and I could do it over again, none of them would have wasted four years getting a BA from one of Canada's prestigious degree mills.
  55. Yannick Terrence from Canada writes: @Paul Wallnutz:
    I understand your frustration Paul, but I think people setting out for university in the aim of obtaining immediate, relevant work after graduation are missing the point. University education - at least the arts, anyway - has not traditionally been about opening up specific job opportunities in specific industries. Read: education rather than training. I received my B.A. and had a very difficult time finding work. However, I would never trade the experience of attending a university and learning how to think, chiefly, for an education in a skilled trade that would string me into one occupation for a great deal of my life. We shouldn't be grumbling over the fact that universities are incapable of delivering jobs. Instead, we should find a way to integrate the specialization economy with the idea economy. You and your daughters may feel hard done by right now (I sympathize) but trust that in ten or twenty years time they will look back on their university years as illuminating. Cue the Socrates quote, "the unexamined life is not worth living." Universities, especially the excellent ones, help young minds realize their true critical capacity in this way.
  56. Darcy Day from Canada writes: Paul Walnutz you are one hundred percent right about universities.

    This priceless line from Yannick Terrence "Instead, we should find a way to integrate the specialization economy with the idea economy" is absolute meaningless gobbledygook and is a prime example of how a useless university education destroys your thought process.

    Oh the irony.
  57. Vickky Angstrom from Canada writes: Nice infomercial. Trouble is that there are a lot of U of T students being bussed (in creaking death traps) out to the burbs -- which is not what they signed up for.
  58. Birdy Num, Num from Canada writes: since the discussion has strayed so much i'll put a vote in for McMaster which has a campus to rival any in North America.
  59. Frank Godfrey from Canada writes: Trouble is , Vicki, there are plenty of undergraduates in universities, big and small, who feel they're only grist for the mill. Graduate schools, research chairs etc., - that's where the action is. However, going to a college or learning a trade is the best step for many university grads wishing to enter the job market.

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