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LCBO flips anti-plonk policy

BEPPI CROSARIOL

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 10:35 AM EDT 23/01/08

Wine drinkers in Ontario may soon notice a strange trend at their local liquor stores — more shelf space for bargain imports. ...Read the full article

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  1. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: As a person who tries to buy only sub $10 wines...hooray.

    Now try bringing your prices in line with the rest of the civilized world. Case in point: Barefoot wines (very nice -- IMHO) are $9.90 here which is 2x the price in US discount stores.
  2. R M from Ottawa, Canada writes: I agree with M Spiker. About time, and time for an attitude change among wine writers and LCBO management as well.

    When you see what good wine sells for in other countries, we're being ripped off here due to....wait for it....yes.....high taxes. Both the LCBO and SAQ are way out of line on their wine pricing, and this is hopefully only the first of steps in the right direction.

    There is a lot of global growth in wine production, which should help this, as well.
  3. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: I look for inexpensive wines too, as flavours impress, the price does not, but in Ontario it's my understanding that some of the tax on wine, beer and liquour subsidizes the provincial health system.
  4. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Or better yet some competition. A competing liquor store wouldn't have any qualms carrying good-value wines at competitive prices.
  5. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: I think this is a good idea and about time, especially with the increasing value of the Canadian dollar. However I would like to add that in my opinion, the LCBO does an excellent job. They are one of the largest alcohol/wine/spirit buyers in the world and because of that they can get excellent price points on wines that cost more in other provinces. I like high end wines and routinely buy them at LCBO at prices that are lower than in the US or that I can find on the web. Overall, I think LCBO offers a great service to Ontarians.
  6. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Rollo: "sin" taxes go into the general account (here and in the US). We get told they subsidize health care to keep us quiet (just like our gas taxes build/fix roads -- not).

    Here in Ontario between federal transfer payments and 3% of our payrolls going to pay for our "universal" health care there is little justification for a 50% tax on a bottle of wine. (Universal if you don't consider your prscription drugs, teeth, eyes, brain, spine, feet, and general well being part of a healthy body.) If they were to direct all the money to AA and alcohol related illnessess, OK, but it just ends up in the trough.
  7. Ethel Barr from Toronto, Canada writes: The LCBO sells inexpensive wines? Poppycock. They do no such thing. Whenever I travel, it seems $5 wines are everywhere but here. Even the LCBO's cheapest wines are marked up far beyond their fair value.
  8. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Rollo: "sin" taxes go into the general account (here and in the US). We get told they subsidize health care to keep us quiet (just like our gas taxes build/fix roads -- not).
    ---------------------------------------------

    My mistake. 'Sin' taxes, really? Wine was meant to be inexpensive and enjoyed, there's no sin in living well.
  9. Stephen McPherson from Bradford, Canada writes: It's time to get rid of the "stuffed shirts" running the LCBO and get some new leadership more focused on profitability through better pricing and wider selection. For example, I have a few varietals from California that I really enjoy, however, selection in most of the LCBO stores in my area is either zero or one. Given the large number of vineyards in California producing top quality products at moderate prices it seems ridiculous to not have better selection at the LCBO. While I do buy Canadian more frequently, it's nice to have a broader selection. A high price on a product does not directly convert into high quality.
  10. Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Wine is not a 'sin.'

    It's heavenly and Good.
  11. M Clarke from Canada writes: Makes me think of the Monty Python sketch on "Australian Table Wines" - Perth Pink, Hobart Muddy, etc. Anyway, other than Mezzomundo, I rarely see sub - $10 bottles at the LCBO. Maybe I'm not spending enough time searching, or maybe they don't stock them at my local - that obscenely outsized liquor barn at Yonge/Summerhill.
  12. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Andre: you must have found one of the 24 hour LCBO's (smiley face).

    Being the cheapest in Canada isn't much to brag about. Their buying power translates into more profit or slough for the board. (FYI: I believe Sainsbury's, the UK's Loblaws, is the biggest wine purchaser in the world and their shelves a full of discount wines.)

    How does a ma-and-pa Liquor Store in the US underprice the LCBO? The states tax their product. They have to buy from a wholesaler whereas the LCBO can buy direct. And please don't bring up the arguments about underage drinkers (I am 50 and get carded in US liquor stores) and the environment (big US liquor stores have bottle returns in the store not down the street at the Brewers Retail).
  13. Paul Kruger from Vernon, Canada writes: "Only in CANADA, eh" ... even at $8 the prices are 2x those in the USA and 4x those in South Africa and Chile. No wonder Canada's governments are salivating while trying figure out how to legalise pot - look at all the money they make from booze!
  14. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: Do they not know the 11th commandment? 'Enjoy yourself.' Cheers.
  15. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: M Spiker; I agree with many of your points and again, I think increasing the number of cheaper varieties is a good thing. All I'm saying is that for higher end wines, LCBO offers excellent pricing, especially compared to the US. Also, for those who complain they can't get certain wines in their stores, then you should speak with the staff in those stores. If LCBO carries it then you can get it (they'll ship it free of charge), whether you are in Thunder Bay or Toronto. That's the advantage of LCBO, regardless of where you live you do have access to their complete inventory. In the US or some provinces, you have no idea what you will find in their stores.
  16. Chris Keating from Canada writes: 2x the US at $8? The only place in the US you can buy a $4 that isn't Grape Juice with antifreeze is California, and even then it's a hard find.

    I'm actually a bit dissapointed by this change as there will be more unappealing wines taking up the shelf space in the LCBO. If I want plonk or cheap wine i'll buy it at Wine Rack. The LCBO is where I go if im looking for quality wines.
  17. CD W from Canada writes: Maybe we will get Rumpole's favourite, "chateau Thames Embankment"!
  18. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: I can't comment on higher-end wines. What price does this benefit kick in? For me high-end is anything over $15 and I have never seen a cheaper offer form the LCBO. But if it is true (a big ?) then this tells you something about the LCBO's high cost of doing business and why they don't/can't offer value wines. This is not a good thing but more justification for privatization.

    Free inter-store shipping is a good thing and pretty well standard for any chain that has progressed from the horse-drawn business model. How about buying product direct from the producer -- something you can do in the US. You can do this when you don't have a monopoly in place with the keyword "Control" in their name.

    I'll give the LCBO credit, they have done a good job with their web site -- they just need to add some customer reviews.
  19. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Here is some incite as to the LCBO's pricing model (taken from the Private Ordering section of their web site).

    "Typically the final cost per bottle of the product will be approximately three to four times higher than the retail price in the country of origin after application of exchange rates, LCBO mark up, freight, taxes and duty."

    They estimate Freight on a case from California is $7. Exchange rate is 1:1. That means the bulk of the 3-4x being in their markup, taxes, and duty.
  20. Steve M from London, Canada writes: I heartily agree with M Spiker on the monopoly issue.
    In my opinion the LCBO offers an inferior selection for an inflated price, even considering the taxes. I would gladly go to another wine retailer, were that possible. I envy Americans (that feels weird to say) because of their availability and selection of great wines from local shops and grocery stores.

    Just imagine that for a second, going into a wine store run by a local enthusiast who loves wine. Not only would you see a great selection of wines, but they would be able to use their expertise to help you choose something to pair with a meal, or choose something that suits your tastes. At the LCBO, the staff are not experts, they're just doing their jobs.

    Too bad the LCBO is such a cash cow for our government. According to them, monopolies are never good, unless its their monopoly. Maybe one day we can find a government that will put the interests of the people above the interests of their balance sheet.
  21. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Riddle me this: why can the LCBO offer competitive prices for imported European beer but not for wine and liquor?

    They can match and beat US and Brewers Retail prices. Is there a different tax scheme in place for beer?

    For example, the price of (excellent) German beer is from $1.90 to $2.20 a 1/2 liter. This is less than (crappy) Canadian beer at the Beer Store and close to the price of (really crappy) buck-a-beer.
  22. Frank Mahovlich from Canada writes: As a wine-making, Canuck transplant to Australia, I can assure you that the Aussie's strength is in the $10-$20 category, substantially outshining French/Italian/USA etc wines in this category, often by a long-shot, especially with cellaring. The "Rough Red Ned" Aussie/USA/Chilean etc wines in the $5-10 range, well, call them wines, if you must...
  23. ex- Easterner from Calgary, Canada writes: I live in Calgary and spend about 3 months a year in Ontario. I am also a drinker, so I can comment on the significant price differences between Alberta (totally private) and Ontario.

    The differences are significant. For example Wolf Blass Yellow Label Cabernet can be regularly purchased in Calgary in the $12.00 range ... in Burlingtonn, and I assume elsewhere in Ontario its in the $16 - $17 range. Balvenie Single Malt 10 year ... Calgary $34 ... Burlington $44-$46 range. I could go on and on.

    The LCBO's bloated structure, 6000 unionized workers, headed by a chairman that pulls in $850,000 a year and no competition are some of the reasons for the rediculously high priced product on the LCBO shelves in Ontario.

    One last statistic to digest is that Ontario earns 25.6% of booze revenue, while Alberta earns 34.9% (2005 figures). Higher prices and less profit ... explain that. It looks like privatizing sales in Ontario would bring in more revenue to the Government and give the residents lower prices. Why isn't this happening? Lets get mad.

    OK, now I'll get off the soap box and go out to get my weekend supply at the Real Canadian Liquor Store.
  24. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: M Spiker, I have found that once you get >$15/bottle, their prices do improve in comparison to the same bottle in Alberta (for example). But when you get up to >$30/bottle the profit margin is higher for the producer and LCBO does have clout when it comes to setting the price point, versus a private seller. Also, if a particular vintage/variety becomes hot and sought after, LCBOs prices do not change whereas a private seller cranks up the price because they know they can sell it higher. I have come across this situation many times. I recently bought several high end wines (>$60/bottle) and before I bought them I checked web sites and US and UK sellers and they were all 30% higher.

    Also I agree with Chris Keating's comments but what I hope LCBO does is remove some of their high priced plonk (Canadian and others) and put in good "value" plonk like that from Portugal/South Africa, which it sounds like they are going to do.
  25. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Steve M: when I lived in the US I took advantage of a local ma-and-pa liquor store run by enthusiasts. They offered a somewhat limited but excellent selection of sub $10 wines all the way up to $5k per bottle wines. They controlled the quality of the offer and let the market control the prices.
  26. Chris Keating from Canada writes: I agree the LCBO monopoly and price markups are terrible. I don't think the answer is bringing in crappy wine so they can sell it at $8 a bottle.
  27. Nelson C. from Toronto, Canada writes: andre michaels: they are THE biggest buyer and seller in the world.
  28. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: To Steve M; Many of LCBOs employees are incredibly knowledgeable about wines. I'm not talking about the cashiers but the people who are there to advise. I have excellent rapport with their Vintages experts and they routinely attend tastings of the wines they sell so they can provide excellent recommendations. I rely on them a lot. As far as the monopoly goes, I would rather the LCBO make money for the province (and us as taxpayers) than the profit going into a private sellers or chain stores pockets.
  29. Ethel Barr from Toronto, Canada writes: Be sure to check out your local wine shop, located in Ontario grocery stores everywhere. The wines are Canadian only, but it's a fine place to shop. Prices aren't particularly competitive, but I like seeing my money go to local merchants instead of bloated government bureaucracies. They have some very nice wines (Naked Grape is one of my favorites), a selection of ciders and wine-based coolers, icewines, sherry, and a wine cream liqeur which tastes exactly like Bailey's and is about half the price.
  30. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: My concern is that with their high cost of sales the only way they can offer more inexpensive wines is to buy more plonk (reducing the quality) or buy a lot of the decent stuff (reducing the choice).
  31. ex- Easterner from Calgary, Canada writes: To Andre Mishaels: You sound like an appologist for the LCBO.

    Please explain why Ontario's monopoly only earns 25.6% of revenue for the Government while Alberta's private system earns a healthy 34.9%
  32. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: All I'm saying is that I like the service, selection and price (especially the high end stuff) at LCBO. LCBOs philosophy is to give every Ontarian the same selection and price across the province, which they do. If you live in High River, Alberta or Medicine Hat, you will not have the same selection as people in Calgary or Edmonton. That is not the case in Ontario.
  33. Jim Sandles from Canada writes: The LCBO and the Liberal government make me want to puke. Let's allow some competition here and let the consumers decide what they want to drink. I am tired of paying for the glossy brochures and the fancy boutique stores. They can put it in boxes and bins at Canadian Tire or Price Chopper for all I care. Break up LCBO it serves no one but itself.
  34. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: For example, the price of (excellent) German beer is from $1.90 to $2.20 a 1/2 liter.
    ------------------------------------

    Beer and chocolate are not taxed in Germany. I pay 6.95 euros for 24 cans, 350mls each of Bitburger Premium.

    BTW the 11th Commandment is just one of 100s of fine beer to be found in Belgium. Enjoy yourself.
  35. ex- Easterner from Calgary, Canada writes: Andre Michaels, if you are saying the same selection is available all across Ontario, then once again you are wrong.

    Go shopping in Haliburton for instance. No "high end" there. Also in Burlington there is quite a stocking descrepency amongst the stores. Appleby Mall in fact has the worst selection of wines and spirits that I have ever encountered.

    I'll have to check out Leamington one day.
  36. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Andre: I do most of my shopping in a small town LCBO and you absolutely do not get the same choice. It doesn't help that in rural Ontario half the Liquor Store is taken up by Canadian beer because up until recently there were next to no mini Beer Stores.

    Yes you can go to the trouble of ordering from other stores. If you are buying $60 wines, this isn't a problem. If you just want a bottle for dinner, the selection is very limited and the prices are bad. Never mind how far you have to drive and the limited opening hours.

    You really need to spend some time in a good US liquor store.
  37. Robert Tomas from Toronto, Canada writes: Chris Keating from Canada writes: I agree the LCBO monopoly and price markups are terrible. I don't think the answer is bringing in crappy wine so they can sell it at $8 a bottle.

    I could not agree more. I had purchased some great Burgundy on an internet auction very cheaply. The LCBO levy for private importation was....100% of the purchase price. I don't want a government monopoly so the cheap plonk drinkers have a plentiful supply of Yellow Tail at $6 a bottle. Let corner stores carry that and private wine importers open high end stores.
  38. Alpha Sigma from Canada writes: 'Chris Churchill, president of Churchill Cellars Ltd., which represents such popular Australian brands as Banrock Station and Hardys, said quality at all price points has improved significantly during the almost 20 years he has been travelling to wine fairs '

    Wonder if they will have a 'Plonk' section like there is a 'Vintages' section. I love Australian wines, however I have had the misfortune of ordering a glass of Banrock Station at a restaurant once. Not good at all. Thought maybe the bottle had been sitting around too long but even after opening a new bottle is was plonk.
  39. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Rollo: I love Bitburger (currently $2.20 / 500ml) and scoop it up when it is on sale. By my calculations you are paying less than 1/2 that -- I am sooo jealous.
  40. andre michaels from Leamington, Canada writes: M Spiker, I hear what you are saying and I appreciate your views. However, if LCBO was disbanded, do you really think selection and value in Ontario small towns would improve? I have been in amazing wine stores in the US (in big cities) but go to rural cities in the US and tell me what you find.
  41. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Chris/Robert: I am with you guys...well not shopping with you as I would be more than happy buying my plonk at the corner store and leaving the good stuff to your elitist stores.

    It is embarrassing standing in line with my basket full of Barefoot and having you Vintage shoppers looking in disgust at me. I feel that my cheapness is not being respected -- let's start a movement for "plonkcentric" liquor stores (smiley face).
  42. Terry Terry from Brantford, Canada writes: From funtrivia.com Q: Can you still buy Ripple Wine? A: Apparently this wine vanished many years ago. Ripple was an inexpensive fortified wine popular among certain subclasses in the United States, particularly in the 1970s. Due to its high alcohol content and low price, it had a reputation as a drink for alcoholics and the destitute. Sounds like a growth market to me! Two bucks worth of red please.
  43. Pat Rand from Toronto, Canada writes: As a wine merchant, let me share with you how the LCBO sets their pricing. When we look at a bottle of wine valued at $7.95 and remove the GST, PST and bottle return fee, what remains is $6.63 - representing the cost of the wine, freight, duty & excise and prov levy. The LCBO charges a flat levy of $1.62 per litre of wine - or $1.21 per 750ml bottle. When these are taken of the $6.63, what is left is the base price of the wine (landed cost - cost, freight, excise & duty and LCBO markup) - base price is $5.42. Assumptions - freight of $5.00 per 12-bottle case; duty & excise of $0.25 per bottle. Translates into .42 for freight and .25 for duty & excise - total $0.67. The LCBO markup is 64 % and is included in the base price of $5.42, as stated above. To get to the actual cost of the wine, the following formula is required (5.42/1.64 or $3.30) The result is the following - Cost for wine - $2.63; freight, duty & excise - $0.67 and markup of $2.12 - Grand Total $5.42. Having presented the facts, let us look at how that relates to product imported from Europe. The $2.63 at todays rate is 1.75 EURO . A producer of 50,000 bottles would receive from the LCBO a wopping 87,500 per his efforts. If he has a workforce, their cost would be about 40,000 (2 people), bottle costs of 12,500 EURO, and the rest for equipment, licences, supplies, etc.. Oh, I forgot, a profit! The question is how can a producer survive given the above circumstances, or better still, what are you getting for 1.75 EURO wine. A receipe of grape juice and chemicals or what? Why as consumers, are we not asking to have everything that is put into our wine labelled accordingly on the bottle so that we can make an informed decision. Cheap wine can be make to taste great, but where does it appear on the wine magazines...bargain at $7.95? Shame McGuinty - are you now encouraging more drinking.. double you bag for your buck.
  44. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: M Spiker from Ottawa, sounds about right. There is competition here, even a 'night store' carries 4 kinds of Champagne, though not every gas station sells cold beer, it seems like it.

    If the LCBO has a corporate philosophy, it's Control, not Competition.
  45. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Andre: that enthusiasts liquor store I described was in a small (albeit affluent) town 50km outside of Boston. Small town America is also served by the big retail chains who can sell wine. One thing you can guarantee in the US: if their is consumer demand, there will be a supplier.

    If the LCBO were privatized (ala Alberta), there would be more choice and better prices in all of Ontario. For example: the Muskokas. An extremely affluent rural/recreational area of Canada with no decent Liquor Stores. Scrap the LCBO and see how fast the services and supply would improve.
  46. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: The question is how can a producer survive given the above circumstances, or better still, what are you getting for 1.75 EURO wine.
    --------------------------------

    French producers call it "the wine lake." I quote supermarket prices. Chateaus may sell for substantially less.

    A fine (aren't they all) bottled en chateau Poully Fuse can be had for 8.7 euros per. What does it cost at the Ontario Liquor Control Board?
  47. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Pat: thanks for the facts/numbers.

    My simplistic interpretation on the price of a bottle of plonk: 1/4 in taxes, 1/4 for shelf space in an LCBO, 1/4 in LCBO operating margin, and 1/4 for product.

    The problem is with the flat levy and the healthy margin the LCBO seems to feel it is entitled to. If you were to allow retail competition, wouldn't the shelf space fee and margins shrink leaving more room for product (better quality wine)?

    Andre: you can see why you get a better deal on high-end wines -- a $20 cost wine can retail for $43 (if my sums are correct).
  48. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: I used to visit a French village and there is an amazing supply of grape in that country. After the harvest the vines are full of grapes that couldn't be officially picked (even from top rated vineyards). The locals of course pick them and make their own wine, champagne, and liquors which are so cheap they drink it instead of soda pop (and happily give it away to visitors).
  49. Nelson C. from Toronto, Canada writes: One of the FEW benefits of living downtown is living a stone's throw away from the Summerhill LCBO!
  50. Richard Daystrom from Toronto, Canada writes: M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: I used to visit a French village and there is an amazing supply of grape in that country. After the harvest the vines are full of grapes that couldn't be officially picked (even from top rated vineyards). The locals of course pick them and make their own wine, champagne, and liquors which are so cheap they drink it instead of soda pop (and happily give it away to visitors).

    I had tears in my eyes after reading this.
  51. Montreal Guy from Montreal, Canada writes: So how long before the MADD crowd starts chiming in about lower prices and how that will promote/increase drinking?
  52. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: I personally see nothing wrong with the LCBO. Alcohol is like cigarettes, it's fun to do socially but generally it is a luxury item that creates far more problems that it solves. LCBO "profits" go to the government so basically it is a tax. Yes, I used to live in Ontario so I know how prices are higher, and yes I do drink personally.
  53. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Richard: this village was in the Champagne region. Lunch and Dinner were always accompanied by an unlabeled bottle or 2 of decent champagne.
  54. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: It could be almost any village in Champagne, too, why bother with names? What the Champagne region needs is the full monty English breakfast.
  55. Dan Druff from Canada writes: .

    I can't wait for my first $6.00 Portugal Chateay de Shart
    I am getting tired of $8.00 South Afarician Chateau de Screwtop
    But my Calafornia Chateau Vivite is quite nice.
    (Make a run for the boarder)........
  56. Pat Rand from Toronto, Canada writes: M Spiker, what our audience does not get is that at these low costs, the product in the bottle is grape juice plus something else. I want to know what the something else is. I don't have a problem with the cost, just tell me what is in each bottle (everything). Every producers should be make to list all ingredients, just like any other food we get on supermarket shelves.
  57. Jeff Kelly from Kitchener, Canada writes: The myth that somehow things would be better if the LCBO were privatized just never seems to die. Sure, a few bottles of wine might be a bit cheaper; but the most common wines would be the only ones most stores would carry. Forget finding anything new or different at your local store.

    Also forget the helpful advice that you can now get from LCBO staff. Try asking some corner store kid which wine will go best with duck, and you'll get a 'huh?'... So what if a bottle of wine costs a little more? It goes to the tax man. I'd rather they tax me buying a bottle of wine, than tax me more on my income tax.
  58. Maria Gatti from Montreal, Canada writes: You don't hail from a family of Italian (or other Southern-European) descent if you think wine is a "luxury" item.

    And the worst binge-drinking is NOT in the countries where wine is reasonably-priced and a normal part of supper.

    I do like quality wines and read Mr Crosariol's column faithfully, but I can't afford to put them on my dinner table every night. I do like the fact that they will feature affordable wines for everyday suppers and people without a lot of money, but hope it doesn't come at the expense of higher-quality wine and well-informed staff.

    There are very highly-trained wine counsellors at the SAQ, but their prices for what is really ordinary table wines remain too high.

    By the way: Bitburger makes one of the best no-alcohol beers, called "Drive".

    And I don't think comparisons with Chile or South Africa are fair. You can compare prices with Western Europe or the US, despite the vastly different price structures, but the average Chilean or South African earns much less than her or his counterpart in Canada.
  59. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Pat: I would love to know what is in the wine I drink. I try to consume beers that list the ingredients (German, Canadian micro brews, Budweiser, etc.). Given the monopoly and buying power the LCBO has, this is something they could easily get from the producer and provide. Unfortunately this is another area where this institution fails.

    LCBO apologists (employees): give it up. Your statements hold no water to anybody who has spent time in jurisdictions without state controlled alcohol distribution (in my case the US, UK, France, and Japan). The stores and staff have improved greatly from the old days but they have a long way to go and they don't have the motivation or leadership to do it. The plonk issue just shows how the system is broken.
  60. Pat Rand from Toronto, Canada writes: Thanks Spiker

    I also have lived in many countries, and being of european origin, understand both sides of the story. I belong to a wine club that strives to find small wineries in Italy and bring those wines into Ontario. The best thing about it is that we can taste the product before we order it. It's the best vehicle that I know, where I learn about wines and how they are made and the prices are no different then the LCBO.
  61. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Pat: I used to know an Italian "club" in Stoney Creek that imported bulk grape juice from their family's vineyards in Italy -- shocking as it may seem the stuff always fermented en route. (This was the source for my plonk habit when I lived in the area.)
  62. Offshore Reg from bridgetown sometimes, Barbados writes: Precisely what the people have anxiously awaited - the return of $5 and under wines. A couple of questions though: will LCBO be supplying the mandatory brown paper bag within that price structure or will that be an add-on? and Will LCBO be providing maps indicating suitable park benches, wharves, and public laneways where these wines may be best consumed and enjoyed? An assortment of suitable mixes would also be nice. Perhaps a carbonated orange drink for those wishing to savour that fruity aftertaste.

    And, can the return of such great Ontario wines of the past as zoom, zing, old niagara, and four aces be far off? Not VQA maybe, but fine wines in their day nonetheless.

    Just wondering, do the chinese make wine?
  63. Ron Hartlen from Canada writes: Wine has been shown to be good for our health.
    That would reduce health care costs.
    So, there should be a tax deduction, to encourage more wine drinking.
  64. Daniel M. Ryan from Toronto, Canada writes: @Montreal Guy:

    You could always send in a donation cheque for $6.50, with this note written in the memo section: "$10 donation, minus 35% donor's administration cost."
  65. jer greene from montreal, Canada writes: As a sommelier friend admitted to me on several occasions, price does not guarantee quality. In fact, there are many wines at the LCBO under long term contracts that are not inexpensive, and not that good. I am sure you know which I mean. Happy to learn of this recent development. I hope the less expensive wines will not all be 'plonk', which is a risk. Sniff, taste and choose well, oh, LCBO!
  66. dave ross from Canada writes: For Ontarians looking for an alternative there is the Opimium Society. They sources wines from around the world, including Ontario, not sold in the LCBO, partly because LCBO normally requires such large quantities that smaller vineyards cannot/will not fill.

    A friend of mine is a member and none of the wines he has shared with me have been a disappointment or substandard.
  67. d s from Toronto, Canada writes: I wish there was an anti-plonk policy! Beppi or the editor who wrote the headline should realise that plonk refers not to cheap wine, but to bad wine. I'm all for cheap, good wine, and I hope that's what the LCBO intends on stocking.
  68. Richard Daystrom from Toronto, Canada writes: M Spiker, you're killing me. Now I have to go back and re-read all of Peter Mayle's books about Provence. But first I'm going to dust off my French cookbooks starting with Julia and then crack open a nice cab sauv at supper.
  69. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: Richard: Sante(h)
  70. Stockpiling ammo and food from Canada writes:
    Ahhh, I can see the posters and POP displays in the LCBO stores already
    'MAD DOG 20/20 COME ALIVE FOR A BUCK FIVE!'
  71. Larry Feldman from Waterloo, Canada writes: There are a few comments on this board about private liquor stores in Alberta; I was in Calgary just recently and found the prices on the brands of spirits and wines I normally buy at the LCBO, are without exception, more expensive there. Around the time Alberta first privatized, I found it was the reverse.

    My favourite is the wine cooperatives in the south of France (Languedoc-Roussillon region) where one can buy wines of exceptional quality for around 3 to 4 $'s. Just wish I could get there more often!
  72. Larry Feldman from Waterloo, Canada writes: Hey, I think big brother McGuinty must be watching - - the minute my comment appeared on this board, I received the lastest on-line copy of the LCBO's 'Vintages' newsletter. Coincidence?! ;-)
  73. allcanadian allamerican from the american sector of, Canada writes: "more shelf space given over to bargain imports. Serious bargains, too, as in $7 and $8 for a regular-size bottle."
    "There are certainly good wines out there for less than $10 a bottle"


    Certainly there are good wines for under $10 a bottle if the LCBO dropped the prices for great tasting wines. Right now most wines in this $10 range are worthy only of a single taste then promptly and quickly ignored.
  74. gregory macisaac from Ottawa, Canada writes: Dave Ross: It's the Opimian society BTW, not the Opimium.

    Re: Pat Rand's calculations. So let's take a good look at this:
    For a $7.95 bottle of wine, he calculates the following:

    Wine: 2.63
    Freight: .42
    Duty and Excise: .25
    Markup: 2.12
    Levy: 1.21
    GST/PST: 1.32

    Or another way of thinking about it is the following:

    Wine: 2.63
    Freight: .42
    Tax: .25
    Profit: 2.12
    Tax: 1.21
    Tax: 1.32

    Or again:

    Wine: 2.63
    Freight: .42
    Profit: 2.12
    Tax:2.78

    But since the LCBO is a government-run institution, any profit above their operating cost is...a tax. So you can think of it this way.

    Wine: 2.63
    Freight: .42
    Tax: 4.90

    Now, doesn't that seem strange to you? I doubt that it requires double the price of the original wine to keep the LCBO stores running.

    Anyone who has ever lived in, or even visited Europe knows that our wine/liquor prices are artificially high. In any supermarket in France you can get decent table wine for 3 to 4 euros. And what we consider 'cheap' at $8 per bottle would sell for 2 euros there.

    Thank you, Mr. Rand, for providing figures that demonstrate how we are being fleeced.
  75. Jim Z from Canada writes: I noticed recently that a wine I buy selling in the 13.00 range prior to the New Year had increased in price rather than decreasing. After the first of the year I remarked to a clerk that the prices seemed to change week to week. He said well we had a 1% decrease in the GSt. So how come the bottle of wine increased 5 cents. Other brands increased 15 cents a bottle. Also I also notice that the increase of the Canadian dollar has not brought the price of spirits down. I guess the government is pocketing the money as extra profits. Seems to me the consumer is being shafted once again.
  76. G Betts from Canada writes:
    I just want to add to the discussion that I recently returned from a wine-tourism vacation in Tuscany and the Chianti region. Before we left, we spent time learning the different grapes and tried several wineries that we would have a chance to visit. We were astonished when we arrived in Italy to find that we had paid EXACTLY the same amount for the same bottle in Canada at the LCBO as we did in Italy at corner stores, and even at the wineries themselves.

    GB
  77. C K from Vancouver, Canada writes: I am always stunned - completely stunned - at how so many Canadians think that is economically and socially optimal (i.e., fair and efficient) for their provincial government to own a retail monopoly for liquor. There is no justification for this viewpoint: 1) The need to tax and regulate alcohol consumption are red herrings - in jurisdictions where the government does not directly own and monopolize liquor stores, it still taxes and regulates alcohol sales and consumption (NB: these places have not disintegrated into social chaos); 2) the fact that the LCBO's huge structure allows it to supply liquor to far flung areas is also irrelevant: a) in effect, this results in drinkers of, e.g., Toronto subsidizing the liquor consumption of people in, e.g., Timmins (this is not health care we are talking about, but access to booze!) and b) this is 2008: wine etc can be ordered online from and shipped by private distributors perfectly well; 3) the LCBO should not be used to maximize provincial revenue or to provide employment. Indeed, if the object in having government monopolies were to maximize revenue or provide employment, and if they did these things well, why would we not extend government monopolies to dry cleaning, coffee shop, grocery stores? We know why not: socialism of this sort is an economic sinkhole.

    Unrelated gripe / question: Does anybody know why we pay duty on US wine? I thought we had free trade, i.e., no duties, tariffs or other trade barriers on US imports?
  78. David Simon from Canada writes: Bring on the wine-dispensing vending machines. If it weren't for the geeedy LCBO worker's union, the greedy LCBO would have them by now.
  79. maple leaf from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: Wine is not a 'sin.'

    It's heavenly and Good.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You and Peyton should be able to kill quite a few bottles watching Tom Brady and Co. achieve perfection.

    Ha Ha all over you, Clarkie.

    Hey at least you can watch the Big Game on the road this year, if you so choose.
  80. Ted Schrecker from Ottawa, writes: As a rule I am intensely sceptical about recommendations to privatize, but in the case of the LCBO the remedy is desperately needed and overdue. The Government of Ontario should immediately get out of this business. By all means stipulate that new, private sector entrants must recognize existing union contracts; require posting of performance bonds to ensure compliance with prohibitions on underage purchasing; and if necessary offer low-interest loans to current employees to help them get into a business they know far better than their managers. But the LCBO is an institution that has outlived its time. If you don't believe me, take a trip to Chicago (from which I just returned) and check out price and selection.
  81. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Ex-eastener must be drinking his/her bathwater instead of a good plonk. I have spent much time in Calgary and other parts of Redneckistan and wine and beer is certainly more expensive than Ontario. B.C. prices are higher too. It's a fact you cannot dispute.
  82. D Lefebvre from Canada writes: Beer,Liquor & beer are taxed at a higher rate in Canada as a means to reduce consumption as well as ensure those who consume more pay more. I shudder to think of the amount we Cdns would drink if the prices were as cheap as in the US.
    Increase it and decrease my income tax!
  83. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes:
    I always find it funny to read all the whining (wining?) about the LCBO. I have NEVER found any other liquor store, private or public, that offers the selection that my local LCBO has. I was recently in a major liquor retailer in downtown Chicago and they had maybe half the selection of the LCBO here in little ol' Waterloo. The shelves are usually well stocked and the staff are actually quite helpful. Prices aren't the cheapest, but the difference is almost entirely due to taxes and duty as they are nearly identical to any other liquor retailer in Canada.

    As for the cheap wines, I've bought a handful of $7 or $8 wines at the LCBO over the past year, so I don't quite understand this announcement. Ok, they maybe don't carry too many cheap wines, but they definitely stock them.
  84. Gordon Murray from Canada writes: Maybe the U.S. "Two buck Chuck" led to Canadian "Seven Heaven Denizen".
  85. Steven Rzewski from toronto, Canada writes: I would be all over competition opening up in Ontario, but from my time in Vancouver, all I remember from the private stores is that everything was more expensive, not less, based on, I suppose, the convenience factor (BC Liquor is open late, and the private stores are often open very late... and early). Maybe I was shopping in the wrong barn in Surrey...

    I think competition there sent the entrepreneurs to find a target market that they could make the most money off of for the least cost. Not surprisingly, that was, at least it seemed to me to be, the low end. You don't go into one of those stores to ask for something that will go well with osso bucco.
  86. C K from VANCOUVER, Canada writes: Steven Rzewski, you say that private suppliers in BC are more expensive than the BC Liquor stores. There's a darn good reason for that: the BC Liquor Control Board is -- by fiat -- the monopoly wholesaler in the province. Thus "private" stores in BC are forced to purchase at prices set by the BC LCB. No wonder they cannot compete on price against BC Liquor: they are not allowed to! Moreover, BC Liquor's status as a Crown Corp frees it from actually having to balance the bottom line: what does it matter what they price things at when they can tax the hell out of us at the point of purchase to offset their high overhead costs.

    I simply do not get this fiction that a substantial proportion of Canadians believe in, to wit, that these provincial liquor monopolies provide top-quality service & revenue generation for province. Look, these monopolies essentially take your (tax) money from you, skim off a chunk for overheads, and then throw the remainder into government general revenues, whereupon we get only a portion back to us in various services. Pure and simple, this is a dead-weight loss. If the liquor market were privatized, overhead costs would be borne by the sellers (and competition would prevent them from passing these costs wholly on to the consumer). This is not just an exercise in economic theory; look at historical facts: if it were the case the government monopolies were in fact efficient revenue generators and service providers, why then was the Soviet Union, with an economy dominated by these types of state entities, not an economic superpower but rather a complete economic basket case? Why did China's economy not take off until it began to allow free markets?

    In what year did the universities in this country stop teaching economics?
  87. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: C K from VANCOUVER, your 2:10 AM post could be as easily about the privateerized system in Alberta as it's run the same way. What a crock. People in Ontario never have known competition either. The only big advance by the last generation was that, after women started buying at the LCBO their retail efforts received an extreme makeover.

    Until not too long ago, I could bring a case or two of inexpensive wine with me because the tax was a flat 10 cents per ounce ($2.60 per bottle). Now it would be taxed 'as if' the LCBO sold it. I have neither any idea what that means nor any intention to test it.
  88. Bill H from London, Canada writes: Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: If the LCBO has a corporate philosophy, it's Control, not Competition.

    No surprise there - after all, it is the Liquor CONTROL
  89. Bill H from London, Canada writes: Sorry about that. I hit the wrong key.

    Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: If the LCBO has a corporate philosophy, it's Control, not Competition.

    The name is Liquor CONTROL Board of Ontario. Yes, they have come a long way since you had to enter a non-descript storefront, fill out a green slip with your name and address, and - with some embarrasment - hand it over to the clerk who then went into the dark bowels of the building to retrieve your selection. But it is still a CONTROL board -- another example of the nanny state in action. After all, we all know Ontarians do not have the maturity and sophistication that Europeans have known for years. We can not really be trusted to make our own decisions and simply enjoy wine as a mealtime beverage as other, obvously less civilized peoples do. Even in a supposed democracy, the state does know better what is good for us and what is not. Free enterprise in the Ontario wine business? Bite your tongue!
  90. s b from canada, Canada writes: Why does the LCBO exist? It is such a ridiculous anachronism. Much like the CRTC.

    There is no good public policy reason for the government to be in the alcohol selling business (or any business).
  91. s b from canada, Canada writes: C K from VANCOUVER, excellent post - and no kidding! I agree, I can never figure out why people cling to these idiotic crown corporations when the evidence against them is overwhelming. I wish all these people could experience a state run economy for a few years. Then return to Canada, and we can get their revised opinion on such matters...
  92. Kim Huynh from Montreal, Canada writes: Recent study finds that people tend to rate wine according to their prices. Same wine with higher price tag seems to taste better. For a long time, I believe the prices of wine in Canada and especially in Quebec are artificially high. Even in Quebec, you can find good wine from Italy and Spain under 10 bucks a 1-litter bottle. If you drink wine daily, go for the bargains.
  93. Brett Evans from Toronto, Canada writes: Our Government is involved in too many aspects of our lives LCBO,CBC,CRTC ,health care etc etc, I was just at a Costco in Michigan, liquor wine and beer was less than half price and the staff was friendlier and I found the selection excellent parking easier and one stop shop