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Canadian health care system lags behind Europe, study says

The Canadian Press

Latest comment posted at 9:06 AM EST 28/01/08

Report ranks Canada 23rd out of 30 countries in ‘consumer friendliness' of health care ...Read the full article

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  1. Let me tell You How It Is from Canadian Myth-Buster, United States writes: Well, let me tell you: Ranks at the bottom third, 23/30 nations.
    Don't bring up the good old USA because it has nothing to do with this article.

    ' Canadian score plunged in areas such as waiting times for treatment, range of services available, ready access to new drugs and some diagnostic tools, and the legal rights of patients'

    What happened to Canada's 'Envy of the world' 'free' health care system?
  2. Robes Pierre from Canada writes:
    With Harper at the helm we're bound to catch the US soon.
  3. Internet Dog from USA! USA! USA!, United States writes: The US has the best medical care in the world, if you can afford it. Just don't be born stupid, unlucky or poor and you'll be fine.
  4. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: Robes Pierre from Canada writes:
    With Harper at the helm we're bound to catch the US soon.

    This has nothing to do with Harper, the decline has been going on for years. Remember we had a government that said that they would fix the system for generations and this was how many years ago. ???
  5. George S from Toronto, Canada writes: Our low ranking caught me off guard, the only other health care system I have dealt with was the American system, so I am grateful for our system.

    One area that I had trouble with was that a few years ago I moved to Ontario from Vancouver and it took me almost a year to find a family doctor who was accepting new patients. My first doctor here accepted too many patients and I usually had to wait over 2 hours to see him on a 'scheduled' appointment. My new family doctor is not as greedy as my first Ontario doctor and I see him in a reasonable amount of time.

    I don't know how our ratio of family doctor's per our population but I think it might be low as it took me awhile to find a family doctor then even longer to find a good one.
  6. Marcella x from Canada writes: All European countries have two-tier medicine. That's why they are ahead. But, whatever, we all 'know' that Canada is 'the best', because our politicians tell us so. Meanwhile they don't tell us that our health care system was built in part on the back of British doctors who fled socialist health care in England (the NHS). They don't tell us that our system is about to implode due to lack of physicians and lack of funding for hospitals. They don't tell us that the physicians who leave Canada because of our socialist system may not represent huge numbers, but they represent our potential leaders, teachers, and 'best of the best'in medicine, because those kinds of people tend to not respond well to being told what they can and can't do by a government bureaucrat. Our system needs compassion AND flexibility. The ability to use our own personal money to get the healthcare we want would create that flexibility. Is it against the law to buy better food? better shelter? Better education? NO. But it is against the law to buy better healthcare in Canada. What ethical basis is there for this? Are food and shelter less important than healthcare? It's the socialist ideas of so called 'Canadian Hero' Tommy Douglas and politics that are destroying our system. Nowhere in the world has socialist/communist idea ever been shown to work in the long term, and the same is true for healthcare. The worst is yet to come.
  7. Keith who is from Ottawa, Canada writes: They don't rank the U.S. on this survey because the outcomes in the American healthcare system are so pathetic and third-world that it would simply humiliate them. I agree with the poster from the U.K. When the U.S. gets it's infant mortality rate up to third-world standards, maybe I'll start listening to advice from Americans to Canada on healthcare. I don't think that bringing in a two-tier system would be any kind of a panacea for problems in Canada's healthcare system right now. I do agree that it is plagued by too much bureaucratic bungling and administrative hand-wringing. The real heart of the problem is the fact that Canada hasn't been training enough doctors or nurses to replace those leaving the system for some time now. Creating a second health-care system to compete with the existing one for diminishing resources will do nothing to solve the problem and may even exasperate it. How can someone take a study named the 'Bang for the Buck Index' seriously on an issue as important as medicare. I would like to see where the people who did this study recieve their funding. Can we say Carlyle Group? Perhaps one of their subsidiaries?
  8. D W from Halifax, Canada writes: As always, the US hatemongers are out in force. Seriously, do you people do anything but spread your pack of lies endlessly, or are you merely too simple to look up the facts. I am a very patriotic Canadian, but anyone that believes the US ranks lowly in anything is either missing a screw or simply living in a fantasy world. Please refer to the item below and note the source is the OECD, not the US. PS. This article was about Canada's failings versus most of the Western world and had nothing to do with the US. That you always bring in the US merely to spread your hate clearly demonstrates your true colors.....disgusting. While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, many other countries do not. For example, a 2006 artilce in U.S. News & World Report states, 'First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.' [2]
  9. John Rowat from Austria writes: I have been living in in the top-rated country, Austria, for the past 5 years. Have had quite some experience with the Austrian system -- one family member had a severe illness that was treated here. Our experience is that Austria probably deserves to be ranked at or near the top. This kind of comparison is likely to be a good benchmark for Canada (the US doesn't have a health care system, so comparisons are pointless).
  10. Mary O'Hara from Canada writes: I would venture that one of the commenters above (Marcella) is in the health care system, or at the University.

    It is absolutely true that refugees from the British health care systems of the world (especially England, but also South Africa and others to a lesser extent) have been part of the creation of a strong Canadian system.

    Now, instead of being a magnet to well-trained doctors and scientists from other parts of the world, we are losing them. The type of person we lose - a scientist who has spent 20 years in training and runs a lab that employs 12 researchers, a world-expert who teaches dozens of other specialists, a hard driving ambitious doctor who creates a new procedure - cannot be replaced easily by graduating more students, or taking in more non-Canadian immigrant doctors.

    The government's monopolistic control of health care cannot but help create a culture of mediocrity. Socialism always does. There are no exceptions to that rule.

    Our doctors are trying to fight this back, but they are only human, and as more and more of them give up and go on salary, and cut back their hours, and refuse to sacrifice their lives for no reason, the tide will eventually go out on our once first class system, now fading fast.

    Europe seems to have struck something of a balance between a certain basic level of healthcare to all, and the ability to get better or faster or whatever healthcare for yourself if you spend your money. Why does the Canada Health Act make it illegal for us to spend our hard earned money to do this? THAT is the real problem.
  11. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: An article that explicitly leaves out the US and talks about Canada's shortcomings and the rabid posters go and ignore the fact that Canada is ranked lowly and starts ripping into the US. No wonder we have such a mediocre system. Any real constructive talk gets choked off before anything substantial gets done. Anybody advocating a discussion about change gets instantly labelled and demonized like they want to destroy the poor and downtrodden. People like you have facilitated Canada's descent into mediocrity. I just hope your influence wanes before we slip even further.
  12. scott thomas from Canada writes: Look at the source, people. It's decidedly right wing - ask yourself, why the US is not on the list? Because their numbers don't fit the songbook.
  13. D W from Halifax, Canada writes: Scott Thomas for Canada....WHY DO YOU CARE WHY THE US IS NOT ON THE LIST? THE ISSUE IS THAT CANADA RANKS LOW VERSUS MOST WESTERN COUNTRIES. WOULD IT SOMEHOW MAKE IT MORE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU, IN YOUR MIND, IF THE US WERE RANKED LOWER THAN US AND WE WERE THEN 23RD OUT OF 31 COUNTRIE
  14. gerhard beck from Canada writes: D W, The US healthcare system is the best in the world if you have money and can afford it. But heaven help you if you can't.
  15. L I from Canada writes: I think a lot of the biggest problems Canada has with access (correct me if I'm wrong- because I'm speculating here) may have something to do with population density. Although we city-dwellers tend to complain about how hard it is to find a doctor it's really the rural and northern communities that are probably in dire straights. I think Europe and the US are more populated throughout and it's easier to find a nearby doctor than in many of our remote communities.
  16. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: gerhard beck from Canada writes: D W, The US healthcare system is the best in the world if you have money and can afford it. But heaven help you if you can't.

    And how does that advance anything into our country at all Gerhard? Its easier to criticize the US than to look in the mirror and see our warts.
  17. brokeback mountain from Canada writes: do we need to be first all the time? if we rank low, we might as well forget about public health care so we don't pay so much tax... a lot of countries have private health care system, like hong kong.. we will all die some day might as well pay less tax and enjoy with the extra money in our own pocket..
  18. Uncle Fester from Upper Canada, Canada writes: the farce in all of this is that as much as we bash the American system, we hand them billions of our tax dollars to handle the overflow in our system annually. Most of those european countries that perform so much better than we do have a two tier system. Lets get our second tier into high gear so that we can keep the billions in Canada and have a system that actually works like the european systems do.
  19. gerhard beck from Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk, I have no problem with our healthcareystem. It can always be improved, but it helped me more than once when I needed it. Sorry I have no seen any warts (so far ). Abd far as European systems are concerned, they exist far loger than ours and ours is based in part on experiences. The US has one that is based on greedy HMOs and big Pharma. Their rating? Tell me please.
  20. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: 'scott thomas from Canada writes: Look at the source, people. It's decidedly right wing - ask yourself, why the US is not on the list? Because their numbers don't fit the songbook'

    I think the US isn't in there becuase the they're comparing socialized systems. Comparing the US system probably wouldn't be apples to apples? - just my take.

    It is amazing how people up there have to compare themselves to the US at all costs - if the USA were on the list and was ranked 24th, I think most Canadians would feel good about the fact that Estonia (which is basically a third-world country, and a great example of why communism is a bad idea) ranked better than them in healthcare, because at least 'we beat the Yanks!' Newsflash, Canada: until you stop that kind of behavior, you'll be forever seen as America's petulant little brother....America Jr, as it were.
  21. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: Gerhard Beck who cares where the US system is ranked. Would it make you all smug and feel good to know that our system is better than the US but ranks 23 out of 30 European countries? I haven't had a problem with the health care system either because I am healthy and am lucky enough to have a family doctor. However I also know my Aunt who has been without a family doctor for over 2 years seeing that she lives in Rural Ontario. I also know of my brother in laws father who went and got an MRI in buffalo because he would have had to wait over 3 months for a scan. The fact is that just because you haven't seen the warts doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    As for your contention that the Europeans systems are better than ours because they have had them longer is absolutely the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard. That they are better because of their 'experiences'. If that is the case then lets pull our heads out of our rears and find out about those experiences. Your acceptance of mediocrity is troubling and indicative of what keeps our country from greatness.

    Your
  22. Patricia F. from Berlin, Germany writes: I was born and raised in Canada and now live in Germany.

    Although the health care system in Germany is quite good, it costs me (a free-lance artist and far from wealthy...) the equivalent of $ 464 Cnd / month in premiums - so, I almost pay as much for my health care as I do rent...

    The benefit to this is that the few times I have had to use the emergency room at a hospital, I've rarely waited longer than 20 minutes and have often been satisfied with the care that has been provided to me.

    Recently, my brother (who lives and works in Canada) was very ill and due to a long undiagnosed heart infection resulting from dialysis, had to undergo 2 open-heart surgeries.

    As if this weren't enough, I was also appalled at how the doctors and the nurses treated both him and us, his family.

    I cannot help thinking that this wouldn't have happened here, in Germany. Doctors and nurses here are much friendlier and willing to help.

    In other words, taking a closer look at what works and why it works both in Canada and abroad regarding health care could only benefit everyone involved.
  23. Bob K from United States writes: The reason why any US comaprison is needed as it justifies the basis for Canada vs. annexation. You are expected to exceed US conditions. If you do not then what is the attraction of Canada, the weather? Hardly.
  24. m mac from Canada writes: When I started to read the comments I found that I had to go back and read once again the article. The reason being, all the US comments. What is this almost manic obsession Canadians have, when it comes to our health care system, to compare it with the US system no matter what the actual discussion is. Health care in Canada has become a symbol, probably the only real one that unites Canadians coast to coast and, as with all symbols the willingness to change it becomes harder and harder each day. While maintaining our core value of universality, we must look to other successful systems for ways to improve our own. Failure to do so will spell the collapse of health care in Canada and the many will have nothing to lord over the US. That fact alone may spur many to demand change.
  25. John Melnick from High River AB, Canada writes: Marcella x from Canada - good post. We in Canada are so obsessed with differentiating ourselves from the USA that we are blind to basic principles and tantalizing opportunities. Tough gun laws and 'free' health care are good examples of the failures that we call Canadian values.
  26. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: This says to me we must start looking to Europe for answers, and by all means, steer clear of a US solution.
  27. Bob K from United States writes: amazing - while 40 million Amercians do not have health care of which a significant number is by choice (e.g. 20 somethings) a recent study indicates 4.5 million people in Canada don't have family doctors, I would suspect certainly not by choice. Which is the greater failure.
  28. brokeback mountain from toronto, Canada writes: they should fix the transit system first... people will spend less time commuting, more time to exercise, fewer people getting sick! less burden on our healthcare system
  29. Hugh Albert from Canada writes: The opportunity to compare our health system against others is meaningful. Expectations can readily be measured and the question 'WHY?' answered. If our health care process is to improve we need to be aware what the road blocks are and where. Our political leaders need to listen, observe and take corrective action to attain higher quality, quicker response time, and lower cost solutions to fill our health care needs. We need Provincial and Federal leaders with a true focus and real commitment. Lip service never gets it done, it only begs the question 'WHY?'.
  30. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Bob K from United States writes.. 'a recent study indicates 4.5 million people in Canada don't have family doctors. Which is the greater failure '
    Bob: There are walk-in clinics with doctors who anyone can see at anytime.

    Says the man from urban Toronto. and your response to those who don't have a doctor in rural Canada probably would be to tell them to move to a city and stop their complaining. Also how long exactly do you have to line up at that walk in clinic for J L. Nothing like a four hour wait while your sick as a dog. What a great system huh?
  31. JP M from Canada writes: The authorship, design and even name of this study could have told you what would be found before it was written. As soon as people start talking about patients as 'health consumers' you know where things are heading...
  32. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: 'J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Bob K from United States writes.. 'a recent study indicates 4.5 million people in Canada don't have family doctors. Which is the greater failure '
    Bob: There are walk-in clinics with doctors who anyone can see at anytime'

    Well our 40 million poor uninsured have Medicare and Medicaid....wow, my argument's almost as weak as yours....
  33. Steve Smith from toronto, Canada writes: Wow, we rank 21 out of 30 and in response many posters just choose to slag United States (which wasn't even ranked in the survey). How pathetic. How Canadian. We have a mediocre health care system because we are mediocre people.
  34. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk sarcastically writes... 'What a great system huh?'.

    It is a moral system that can be greater if people put their fellow Canadians as their top priority. Rural Canadians suffer. Canada has a major geographic disadvantage compared to most other nations. But my point was that atleast there are free, high quality, medical services available to everyone - unlike other nations where people let their fellow citizens die from curable illnesses because they are poor..
  35. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes 'Well our 40 million poor uninsured have Medicare and Medicaid'

    Sorry Mark but Medicare and Medicaid is a joke - you can't compare it to the level of care everyone gets here.
  36. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H: BTW, what we call suffering in Canada is waiting to see a doctor (perhaps an hour or so in the waiting room). In the US, suffering is never getting the treatment you need... Quite a different standard.
  37. Fausto Capobianco from Pasadena, CA USA, United States writes: Be careful what you wish for, i.e., 'catching up with the U.S.,' particularly if you think you can rely on the US social security funded Medicare system. About a year ago I was rushed to the emergency ward of the local hospital here and was virtually ignored despite the fact that internal bleeding had pushed my blood pressure so dangerously low that a nurse nearly panicked as I began loosing consciousness. Struggling to remain consciousness, I could heard the emergency room doctor and nurses fussing over a woman brought in for treatment from a fender-bender auto accident, showed her private medical coverage card and promptly received a full examination, including blood tests, xrays (they brought in a portable machine) and treatment for anxiety before leaving about 45 minutes later. It took nearly two hours before I received a blood test, four hours before they rolled me in for xrays, no relief from the pain of my injuries. When the doctor saw me almost seven hours later, he told me it was my choice to be admitted however I would have to be able to sit up before I could be discharged. An hour later, I could not sit up, I could not stand up; a nurse came and said I was being discharged-whether I liked it or not. I went home in grave pain, without medication, and where I was bedridden for three months. The hospital charge-around $6,000.
  38. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk sarcastically writes... 'What a great system huh?'.

    It is a moral system that can be greater if people put their fellow Canadians as their top priority. Rural Canadians suffer. Canada has a major geographic disadvantage compared to most other nations. But my point was that atleast there are free, high quality, medical services available to everyone - unlike other nations where people let their fellow citizens die from curable illnesses because they are poor..

    And what other nations are you talking about J L? Are you talking about teh 23 other countries who ranked higher than we did and are actually topical to this particular debate? Or are you insinuating the US which for one isn't even in this survey so is superfulous when it comes to this discussion plus doesn't allow their citizens to die because they are poor. The poor in the US actually have medicare and medicaid and their health needs are taken care of. NOw alot of people go bankrupt in the US due to treatments that keep them alive but that is totally different than poor people dying, but whats a little misrepresentation when we are having an important debate right? I would rather be sarcastic than dishonest.
  39. Frank Lee My Dears I Don't Give A Damn from Toronto, Canada writes:
    The Guardian had the report of a health survey where Canada was fourth (I believe) and Sweden was way down the list, close to last. Hmmmm, fancy that.
  40. Uncle Fester from Bay and Bloor, Canada writes: The reason our healthcare system is so screwed up is because it is being held hostage by our parliamentarians. Any proposed effective changes are held in check by whoever our opposition party happens to be at the time. This is not done for the benefit of canadians or our health care system. It is done for the benefit of politics and the popularity contest/vote mongerung f*ck fest going on in our HOC. We are being held hostage by corrupt and greedy politicians who are more concerned with their poll numbers than our health.
  41. jck from ontario from Canada writes: Still learning and I assume that W.H.O is also a right wing think tank. They put us at about number 31 in the world .
  42. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk: There are alot more than 23 other nations in this world of ours - the survey compares our performance vs similar systems to ours. We performed poorly in this particular study and that needs to be addressed asap. Some European models have had some very good results.

    You write: 'alot of people go bankrupt in the US due to treatments that keep them alive but that is totally different than poor people dying, but whats a little misrepresentation when we are having an important debate right?'

    Try getting an organ transplant in the States if you live in the ghetto and have nothing...
  43. Michael Motorcycle from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: The reason we are lacking in these areas is because we are still seeing the results of the well-meaning slackers we've had in charge of this country for so long. It will take awhile for Stephen Harper to fix things (as he is doing slowly, but surely). It's good to finally have someone who is intelligent and business-minded enough to run a country like Canada. If we can just get rid of McGuinty now, we'll be on our way. Sky's the limit.
  44. Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: jck from ontario from Canada writes: Still learning and I assume that W.H.O is also a right wing think tank. They put us at about number 31 in the world .
    do you have a link to the W.H.O. poll?

    Thanks
  45. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk: There are alot more than 23 other nations in this world of ours - the survey compares our performance vs similar systems to ours. We performed poorly in this particular study and that needs to be addressed asap. Some European models have had some very good results.

    LOL. So you don't want to be compared to Europe but the rest of the world. LIke India or Egypt or the Sudan? LOL. The problem with your post is that you mention we need work but quickly go on to bash the States again which has nothing to do with this discussion. You spend more time lambasting the States than really addressing the core of this article which is that our system isn't the envy of the world as people would have us believe. That our public only system when compared to public/private blends in Europe is less efficient and in many cases effective. But again this discussion doesn't happen with you because you are fixated on our 'superiority to the US system'. Which of course no one in Canada advocates going towards. But hey it distracts people long enough that the discussion never happens.
  46. I Am from Canada writes: This is a real wake-up call for Canadians who think our medical system is still the best in the world and Canada can do no wrong. Fact is the failure rate for 'routine' surgery is anywhere from 20 to 35%. Way too much unneccessary surgery and rushed surgery without obtaining second opinions. Surgeons are way too ambitious to do as many surgeries as possible without taking the time to inform patients about risks of complications and failure - especially with vulnerable minorities and the poor. They also sometimes do non-consensual experimental surgery. When surgeons botch a surgery, they dismiss the victim from the medical system and a wall of silence is erected by the medical mafia. This vicious cycle of ignorance and arrogance is why more than 70,000 Canadians are damaged by 'preventable medical errors' in hospital each year and why 23,000 Canadians die each year of 'preventable medical errors'. Victims of medical errors - accidental overdoses, botched surgery - have no rights except to go through a complaints process that only adds cruelty to injury. Malpractice litigation is extremely difficult and costly. A Canadian considering surgery might be well-advised to trust the medical system in Estonia.
  47. DCM DART from Montreal, Canada writes: This study clearly shows that Canada is a huge under-achiever compared to other PUBLIC systems which is really the only valid comparison. We Canadians are smart, well-educated and technologically advanced (but less technically equipped in the Medicare field) ..so why cant' we do better than this?
    What message should we take from this? It's time to clean up our act, and get much more efficient and effective with how we spend our money vs. the outcomes. You can't manage what you don't measure (respected management guru Peter Druker said this) and we're really bad or reluctant at measuring key performance indicators in Canada.
  48. lynn H from Canada writes: This should create great conflict with the progressives. The one and only health care 'card' they play to maintain the status quo is that the Canadian health care system is better than the US. How will they maintain that same status quo argument if we are ranked behind most European countries who are also progressive? Hence the reason for all of the anti-US comments, it's the only argument the Canadian progressives have.
  49. Ian St. John from Canada writes: 'George S from Toronto, Canada writes: Our low ranking..'

    The major 'misdirections' here are the 'bang for the buck' line and the idea that medicine is a 'consumer choice'.

    The first implies that private health care 'like europe' will give lower prices which is total crap. Reference to France, for example (http://tinyurl.com/2d9lh5) declare that

    1: They have 95% 'public' coverage
    2: they have twice as many doctors
    3: the doctors make half as much as in Canada

    An 'oversupply' of doctors is key to lowering costs and will our doctors stand still for that??

    Suggesting that EU countries have a 'mix of public and private' is the bulk of the misdirection. Countries that really do ( such as the U.K) also have a totally disfunctional public system at higher costs. See the 'report' at (http://tinyurl.com/28p8v9)
  50. Festina Lente from Tampa Bay, United States writes: This study of several large and several small populations, all under a socialized scheme, is just about appropiate in terms of value as a pale of warm spittle! The smaller the population in a weatlhier country, say like Finland with a population of 5.2 million and holding...quite naturally it will have a better health care system than, say, Canada or the United Kingdom. From personal experience I know that Sweden does not have all that great of a system based upon the strains that Turks and other Arabs have put on the system, due to lack of employment and being involved in her underground economy. Finland, has a far superior system to all of the nordic countries, having learned alot from Sweden's difficulties and the Finns pay about 65 percent of salary and wages for this carefree package. This leaves about 35 percent for boozing and travel...which the Finns are famous for. Other than being a soicalized schene, Canada health care has no relevance in such a study. I really don't see the significance of the multi-systems within the USA that are being posted about. The article is not about US health care...so why all the hyperbole? Malcolm McCallum in Florida.
  51. emilio D from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'BY contrast, countries like Canada suffers from an 'expert-driven attitude' that isn't as consumer friendly.' How true. Two experts
    recommended that Canada has too many doctors and nurses without
    considering that the doctors they were talking about belong to the
    baby boomers generation. Now we are way behind. We have to kick these experts at the behind.
  52. Ian St. John from Canada writes: On the second point about 'consumer friendliness'.

    {sarcasm} Like I want to decide which drug I want to take. After all, isn't it my choice if I want to treat cancer with Amsacrine, Bicalutamide , Cyproterone,.. etc? Why shouldn't we have access to any drug we want? Up with consumer advertising to create a demand for expensive drugs of choice.{/sarcsasm}

    Access to health care is superior and the low ranking mostly stems from a 'shortage of doctors', seen in questions wait times, access to family doctors, access to medical records, etc. All things that have NOTHING to do with 'public vs private' health care.

    As to the 'bang for the buck', the 'report' says 'The BFB scores, naturally, should be regarded as somewhat of an academic exercise. Not least, the method of adjusting the square root of healthcare spending certainly lacks scientific support. However, it does seem that the supreme winner in the BFB score, Estonia, is doing very well'
  53. Parker Samways from Edmonton, Canada writes: One thing that is always over looked is that we are a very large country with a very small population and providing services for all is not as easy as in Austria or Holland or Germany. They have larger populations closer together and hence more and easier access to services where over lap works.
  54. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk... What are you talking about????

    My initial comment was a response to an American poster who brought up our lack of family doctors- you interevened and wanted to discuss the US.

    Why would I give a crap about 'US superiority'? I don't even believe Canada has the best system in the world (although it easily could). When did I say these things? And when did I say I didn't want to compare our system to Europe's? I referred to the fact that there are more nations than the 23 in the study - many of which do not provide proper medicare for people.

    I think you are so dug into your political trench that you make a lot of assumption.
  55. lynn H from Canada writes: I think that the CMA just recently suggested a way to increase medical staff. Allow private medical training centers to be set up on Canada in addition to increasing numbers in publicly funded universities. That is just one of many ideas that need to be put forth for discussion. No new ideas should be taboo because of fear of change and political correctness.
  56. Peter Smith from Vienna, Austria writes: As a Canadian living for many years in top-rated Austria, I would like to add two comments:
    1) I fear the Canadian heath system needs more resources. When my mother died at Oakville in 1999 I spent a lot of time in the local hospital and while everyone did their best, it was disappointing to see how the infrastructure was suffering from poor maintenance.
    2) Austria has a good system now (especially if you are also privately, and expensively, insured, but is having trouble coping with increasing medical costs - there are several insurance systems here and some of them are close to the point of being bankrupt. Hospital out-patient clinics are generally good but often overrun with patients.
  57. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: "J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H: BTW, what we call suffering in Canada is waiting to see a doctor (perhaps an hour or so in the waiting room). In the US, suffering is never getting the treatment you need... Quite a different standard."

    Sufferening could also be defined as being stuck on a long waiting list for surgery. Sound alot like Canadian medicine AND medicare....hope you never need to get a hip replaced.....
  58. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes... "Sufferening could also be defined as being stuck on a long waiting list for surgery. Sound alot like Canadian medicine AND medicare....hope you never need to get a hip replaced."

    I totally agree. The Canadian system can be improved as this study shows. But fundamentally I believe, as a nationalist and as a human being, that no-one (especially a fellow citizen) should ever have to worry being getting medical attention (whether it is as simple as a check-up or an organ transplant).
  59. Northern Redneck from Canada writes: Been to a doctors office lately , i have and it was the same as the last time i was there , SINGLE MOM'S TAKING LITTLE JOHNNY TO THE DOC BECAUSE HE FELL AND GOT A SCRATCH ON HIS KNEE. There must have been 12 of the little welfare scabs waiting at the docs office and not one of them's son or daughter was even crying , why waist valuable time with people who are there basically just for something to do. Now if your kid falls and hits their head or is actually bleeding than yes go to a doctor , but to go and socialize with the rest of the welfare moms because the cheque isnt due till next week , thats why there should be a $ 5 .00 charge for going to see a doctor , this would keep the ones at home who dont really need to see a doctor , just wanted to see what their welfare buddies have been up to. My doctor told me at least half his patients he sees could simply put a band aid on the little cuts he see's . but he cant tell them that , because they would simply go see another doctor. Time to start issuing a credit card like card for all persons seeing a doctor , this way they could see who goes just for the hell of it and who actually goes when they need to see a doctor.Swipe for service and reveal your issues , see if they are just going to get free drugs or are they going because they had a genuine need.
  60. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Northern Redneck... that's a great point. Every hospital should have a walk-in clinic right next to it for panicked parents to bring their mostly healthy children to. And in the event it actually is an emergency the hospitla is next door.
  61. Canadian Patriot from United States writes: Cole Harbour - This has everything to do with Harper. 2 plus years now, and blaming the Liberals doesn't cut it anymore (not that it should have cut it after the first 6 months). You've been blinded by that extra 25 cents a day you get from your GST cut. What happened to that other BIG plank of the so-called "5 priorities"? Remember the much touted "Wait times guarantee"?

    I think Canada totally misunderstood this Harper promise. He didn't mean that he would guarantee reduced wait times for health care. What he did mean by "Wait Time Guarantee", was the he guaranteed that we'd a wait a long time before he did anything about health care. So, anyone who accuses Harper of not keeping his promises is a total idiot.
  62. L Harder from Canada writes: Besides the need to graduate more doctors (reversing a decision to reduce the number of doctors made in the 80s at least in BC.), there are serious organizational issues. Now we have such a mishmash of juristictions with complete lack of communication and information services. How about the wacky billing system where if I have 3 small things to discuss, I have to make 3 trips to the doctor so he can get paid? What a waste of everyones time. Everytime I reluctantly get involved the the medical system, I marvel about how inefficient it is, how readily doctors push drugs without knowing anything, and how harassed looking the doctors look.

    Like so many governments and businesses, top management either put money into or out of the system instead of doing the hard work of finding ways to make the system better. We don't need ideologues in charge running around barking, we need practical efficient people dedicated to making things better.
  63. brokeback mountain from toronto, Canada writes: i called my family doc at the pharmacy to get a renewal of a prescription for acne lotion.. he wouldn't give it to me and insisted that i had to book an appointment.. so there you go and see how family doctors abusing the healthcare system..
  64. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: Who are the two `think tanks' who commissioned this study?

    A tip from me:

    Every time I hear the words: `Centre for Strategic Policy ....' or `Private Policy think tank....' I simply institute the phrase `politicially motivated whores' and assign the story to the appropriate receptacle.
  65. Guy Olivier from Columbus, Ohio, United States writes: "Bob K from United States writes: amazing - while 40 million Amercians do not have health care of which a significant number is by choice (e.g. 20 somethings) a recent study indicates 4.5 million people in Canada don't have family doctors, I would suspect certainly not by choice. Which is the greater failure."

    Read on...

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm
  66. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: Weird they found something offensive in my reply to you J L. It basically stated that I apologize. I reread your posts and they all are in response to Americans. I just find it telling or interesting that you chose to respond only to Americans and not spend alot of time on the meat of the article. Anyway I dont feel like typing it all so I will cut it short and apologize for my assumptions.
  67. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: I think they have pinpointed one od Canada's healthcare woes. Too much money. If we cut back and used only as much money as the top healthcare providers perhaps we could more easily get our house in order.
    Also, its about time that researchers looked at the cost of overtreating patients with unneccessary drugs and surgeries, and also at iatrogenic effects.
  68. John McCain from Canada writes: As usual the Tommy Douglas as hero crowd starts looking down the list to find the US system so as to rationalize our own poor performance when in fact in this study there was no reference to the US system. You rabid anti-Americans need to get a life, and an identity other than donuts and health care.

    For those of you who missed the CBC documentary last week on the doctor shortage in Canada it was noted that 25 percent of Calgarians have no family doctor nor do 10 percent of Ontarians. We in Canada go on and on about universal care without any reference to the "quality" of that care (ER wait times, lack of drug plans, etc), or what percentage of the population is actually able to access that care in a timely fashion despite paying through the nose in taxes for sub-standard care. What good is universal care when the quality has become so poor yet we spend more than those nations who are in the top ten of that list?

    My guess is those who are the broken records regarding the deficiencies of the US system, and who refuse to ask the question why we are 23/30 have never had the misfortune of having a chronic disease like diabetes or rheumatoid arthritis in a country where close to 15 percent of the population can't even access the primary care system other than for life threatening problems. Take a look around you at the elderly who are wandering from walk-in clinic to walk-in clinic trying to find care, or those with chronic diseases who can't get proper follow-up. These are the people the system here is failing miserably, and are not accounted for in the typical health system measurements like neonatal mortality rates, etc. A universal health system where there is a high morbidity rate certainly requires improvement.

    How about the next time we are rated so poorly we ask ourselves what can we do to move our system into the top ten, rather than always looking to the US system to bash, and to avoid examining our own dirty laundry.
  69. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: "J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes... "Sufferening could also be defined as being stuck on a long waiting list for surgery. Sound alot like Canadian medicine AND medicare....hope you never need to get a hip replaced."

    I totally agree. The Canadian system can be improved as this study shows. But fundamentally I believe, as a nationalist and as a human being, that no-one (especially a fellow citizen) should ever have to worry being getting medical attention (whether it is as simple as a check-up or an organ transplant). "

    We'll have to agree to disagree, then - I don't think you should have to pay for my healthcare. Cheers!
  70. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Northern Redneck from Canada writes: "...Been to a doctors office lately...There must have been 12 of the little welfare scabs waiting at the docs office and not one of them's son or daughter was even crying , why waist valuable time with people who are there basically just for something to do..."

    You only go to the doctor when you're bleeding? Cripes I hope that's not true for your sake.

    People go to the doctor for many reasons including but not limited to: checkups, vaccinations, allergy shots, perscriptions, advice on existing conditions like diabetes etc etc.

    None of these infer bleeding half-conscious blubbering children.

    Good to know you're not above demeaning children or the less fortunate though. That's a quality we all look for in a human being eh?
  71. Anne Johnston from Red Deer AB, Canada writes: I worked for many years in the healthcare system, and it is the unionization of ALL of the workers that is killing our system. They keep demanding more money and benefits, while taking away from the patient care. Until we stop hiring Canadian nurses and bring in nurses from other countries, who give better care at lower wages, our system will never be able to cope with the rising costs and we the patients pay.
  72. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Anne Johnston from Red Deer AB: Somehow I doubt giving employees the right to organized representation is the heart of the problem.

    If you follow the news, the C Difficile breakout in Quebec was eventually traced to the fact that after firing their union janitors the hospitals hired low paid contractors who didn't clean out the sink drains where the virus multiplied and made many many patients sick.

    There must be a happy medium.

    I say look into non-profit NGOs. No goverment bureaucracy and no profit motives.
  73. Elizabeth H from Canada writes: John, thank you for your comment. Both the young and older Canadians with chronic illnesses are too often left out of such discussions. I'm one of the chronically-ill and have been waiting for a year and a-half to see a specialist. Fortunately, I do have a family doctor, but unfortunately, lack access to a specialist. It’s frustrating to be so sick an to be told that there are no available hospital beds, so I'm treated at home when I'm too sick. Often I should at such times be hospitalised. Sometimes, I could just cry with frustration. It's so hard to keep fighting for access to care only to be given the run around. Born with chronic lung disease, I have required O2 for a number of years. Contrary to public perception, there are chronically-ill Canadians who are waiting and getting no where with their healthcare.
  74. elliot vine from toronto, Canada writes: It is a simple economic problem, you allow two tier health and you reduce wait times and money going into the health care system, this extra money allows the public system to stay constant well reducing wait times and allowing the middle and upper class access to private health care. Canadians have a ridiculous problem with the word "private" it is almost a religious ban on discussion here.
  75. The Artful Dodger from Canada writes:
    The Frontier Centre embraces "government as a purchaser, not provider of services"

    Can you say conflict of interst?
  76. Charles Sampson from Canada writes: Canada's healthcare system is really 14 healthcare systems. This is a result of a constitutional designation that healthcare was assigned as a provincial responsibility and not a national one. In 1867, healthcare was an insignificant issue but today healthcare and education (another provincial responsibility) were both given to the provinces because of their insignificance. Today, they are one and two in costs regarding the provincial budgets. If Canada is really going to address universality and comprehensiveness in delivery of healthcare services, I think this constitutional responsibility needs to be addressed. The federal governmnent is really more financially able to provide the necessary funding if that is the objective. To compare Canada's system with European systems is perhaps good if doctors salaries are also part of the mix. I really haven't seen these "think tanks" draw that comparison, however. Whenever private for-profit healthcare is suggested as being more competitive , I can only think of that as price cometition. When I consider this, I do not see any of these think tanks suggesting doctors and other healthcare providers posting their prices for the health services they are to compete for with one another. Perhaps the answer lies in the fact healthcare does not fit the market model. Now it is not rocket science that "some" healthcare services can be cherry-picked and a healthy profit can be realized. Some "doctors" are doing that now in Canada. This could also happen in the public system if the political will was there to do so. But there are many healthcare services that will not be profitable. How many for-profit doctors do you know who are willing to provide these unprofitable long-term chronic services? Canada lives next door to the United States which characterizes anything that is not dominated by the imperfect oligopoly market structure as being socialist. Canada does not have socialist healthcare.
  77. D Lefebvre from Canada writes: I think only one or two people hit on the snag in all these comparisons...Canada is a freaking HUGE country that has a relatively small population.
    Unless these studies include other variables into the equation it is simply erroneous to state a system in one country would work in Canada.

    I would like to see a study that estimates the 'increase' in Dr availability moving to a public/private system in Canada, as well as a cost-benefit evaluation e.g. how much would taxes be reduced and how much would we need to pay out of pocket/insurance (and how much better service). Imagine the malpractice premiums for the Docs in a freer market..costs go up.

    I can only imagine the whining from some if this system were in place and cities like Toronto had more services than Prince George or Timmins...

    There are many angles to consider and hopefully our government will look at all of them before making any rash decisions (for the Left that means considering the options for a start and for the Right to weigh them out fairly and completely - both sides have their major malfunctions on this issue)
  78. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: George S, your first doctor was too "greedy"? His office is so full because there is a shortage of doctors. Perhaps he is greedy. If so, that is a GOOD thing. Until we have enough doctors, we absolutely NEED doctors to load up on as many patients as possible. What happens if doctors become LESS greedy and all take less patients. There are already 5 million Canadians who can't find a family doctor.
  79. anthony rockel from Canada writes: Why am I not surprised by Canada's dismal place on the health care totem pole? Politicians and public alike are living in a Tommy Douglas time-warp that paralyzes them from making any meaningful changes.
  80. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: The attacks on the US system are nothing more than attempts to deflect from our own shortcomings. For too many people, their Canadian pride is completely wrapped up in having "the world's best healthcare system." Anything that shatters that little myth (and it is an outlandish lie) threatens their whole concept of Canadian-ness. Rather than re-examine their beliefs, and face up to the fact that their national identity has been built upon a lie, they deflect any and all criticism to their favourite strawman - the American healthcare establishment. There is a major lesson to be learned here. The healthcare system is meant to serve the public. It is NOT meant to be a source of national pride. It is NOT a flag-waving exercise. It is NOT a means for us to feel superior to the US. It is there to provide us with the best quality care we can afford, regardless of how it is delivered. When the focus is diverted from healthcare to nation-building and national myth-making, healthcare suffers. People die. In Canada, we have for too long obsessed over equality at the expense of quality. All the equality in the world will not make up for a lack of quality healthcare. To improve healthcare for EVERYONE, maybe we need to accept that this improvement will take place at differing rates for different income levels.
  81. Brian Lilly from Moncton, N.B., Canada writes: After reading all of the comments, I must say I am a very lucky guy to be living in Moncton. A little over 2 years ago, I suffered through a very serious malady called Wegener's granulamatosis, which is very difficult to diagnose, but quite straight forward to attempt to cure and regulate. The care and rehabiltitation I received was second to none. Yes, we have some problems with our medicare system, but we are not living in Utopia. The average Canadian must be more optimistic, and realistic in their approach to medical care.
  82. Ardnas Backwards from Canada writes: Finally, a report that compares our health care system to other countries than the U.S.. I'm not surprised that European countries fare better than Canada on several health issues. I truly appreciate our health system in Canada, but from personal experience and that of others, we have a few things to learn from some of the other highly rated countries. I won't give up on our medical system, but it has been grad