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The absence of Plan B

The last time Stephane Dion visited our editorial board, a few months ago, the topic of Afghanistan got us talking in circles.

We had to communicate to our NATO allies, the Liberal leader said, that it was up to them to assume combat responsibilities in Kandahar from February 2009 forward. But what if our allies continued to pass the buck, as they had to date? Then we would tell them we were pulling out. So we would leave Afghanis in the most vulnerable region of their country to fend for themselves? Hopefully that wouldn't happen, because other NATO countries would take over. But what if they didn't? Well, they pretty much had to.

In other words, there was no Plan B. And for the considerable work put into the Manley panel's report on what to do with this mission - and some very lucid recommendations therein, particularly on CIDA, military equipment and domestic communication - the same problem persists.

Unlike Dion, John Manley et al want Canada in Kandahar past 2009; they want us there indefinitely, in fact. But just like Dion's withdrawal, their extension is contingent on our allies stepping up. "The hard truth is that an ISAF retreat from Afghanistan, before that country's own forces can defend its security, would most likely condemn the Afghan people to a new and bloody cycle of civil war and misrule - and raise new threats to global peace and security," they write. But Canada's commitment should be "expressly contingent on the deployment of additional troops by one or more ISAF countries to Kandahar province." And if that doesn't happen, "the Government should give appropriate notice to the Afghan and allied governments of its intention to transfer responsibility for security in Kandahar."

Who exactly that responsibility would be transferred to, other than an ill-suited Afghan army, is unclear. And therein lies the problem. Whether we're talking about pulling out or seeing the mission through, all the solutions put forward thus far are based on the good-faith assumption that, having shirked their responsibilities to date, our partners will suddenly bow to a bit of pressure from Stephen Harper and send in the troops.

The best hope is that, having rediscovered Afghanistan after losing interest for a few years, the U.S. will take on that burden virtually alone. But failing that, there's very little evidence to suggest leaders of other NATO countries will suddenly decide to take a political risk they've shied away from to date.

Maybe there is no conceivable Plan B, other than letting Kandahar blow up. But there's no point pretending, against the evidence to date, that it might not come to that.     

  1. George Push from Red Deer, Canada writes: Of course there's a Plan B. It's to leave the Afghanis alone. Period.
    Stop sending our troops to kill people half-way around the world just so that western oil and gas companies get to control the currency in which fuel is sold, as well as to extort compliance from consuming countries.
  2. Wall Flower from Canada writes: Here's a question for anyone that can answer... We keep hearing that Canada must continue the combat mission for fear that a civil war might ensue and, eventually, bring about the return of extremist factions which threaten global security. Ok. So then, where are those "extremist factions" located now? Are we to understand that they are somehow waiting in the wings for the return of the Taliban? Karzai's been sitting in power for the past 7 years or so, yes? Doesn't it stand to reason that these "factions" are still operating and are still a major threat to global security despite the fact that they no longer have access to the mountain caves of Afghanistan? Short of parking our troops in Afghanistan forever at a grotesque cost to our treasury and turning that country into our 11th province, we will never achieve stability in that region and Manley, Harper, and Hillier know this full well. Even if the Afghan troops were thoroughly trained, they still wouldn't be able to fend off the Taliban given that our own troops, their would-be instructors, aren't able to do it either. I wish these politicians would stop assuming that we Canadians are a bunch of simpletons who can't see past their spin. I am sick and tired of being told that what we Canadians need is a better understanding of the mission. We understand it full well and no amount of spin is going to change those poll numbers.
  3. John Taylor from Surrey, Canada writes: There really is no plan B because it's not an option. Why don't we just send another 1000 troops ourselves? I know that will not be popular with many Canadians, but I really think it's time we upped the anti ourselves. Either WE believe in the mission or not... If we don't have the intestinal fortitude to get our hands dirty in such an awful place, perhaps we should just run away and hide. Afghanistan is a mission Canada can handle - it supports an ideology we have at home. Freedom is not always just sitting in your armchair. It must be earned and supported by the "have" countries such as ourselves. We have not been a lot of use for a long time in the international community and I honestly don't think it is in our best interests to cut and run now... I hope that is not what stuff we are made of!
  4. Ian St. John from Canada writes: The problem here is Plan A. I have yet to see a democracy established by force.

    It tends to take persuasion, a yearning for control over the government, free press, nationalism, methods of expressing dissent ( protests, opposition parties) and other things that are not really served by military force. If those elements are not there or are not fostered, nothing is gained.

    From the Canadian point of view, we should be helping them to afford real protective gear to ensure that those who 'volunteer' to build the nation aren't just 'voluntary targets'. We need to help Afghanistanis to train, police and maintain their own nation.

    No matter how long we 'fight' the final victory will have to be theirs and to some degree, the military fight has become a 'distraction'.
  5. The NeoCynic from Sierra Leone writes: Don't you need a Plan A before discussing a Plan B?

    Canada was drafted into ISAF, and it went along out of sheer guilt for not falling into line with respect to Iraq. That was not a plan. That was a capitulation.

    Nevertheless, if need be, the US could easily, without batting an eyelid, provide Manley his 1000 paper troops as a matter of politcal expediency to provide the requisite justification needed to extend and expand our mission far beyond its UN mandate into a vicious bloody counterinsurgency forever.

    1,000 more troops will change absolutely nothing in the face of a Taliban and Al-Queda that a couple hundred miles away in the Waziristans can recruit from a virulently anti-American pool of 170,000,000 Islamic Pakistanis.
  6. boris moris from vancouver, Canada writes: It appears that Manley, Harper, Hillier et al are hoping that we all remain the silent, stupid type indefinitely. Canada has a few thousand troops in Afghanistan that could be replaced by US troops in a mere heartbeat but we are expected to believe that if Canada pulls out world security will be at risk. This whole conflict, which was initiated as a response to a US false flag operation, is simply another piece of the puzzle of US global hegemony and Canadian tax payers are being played for fools by our government and the media.
    Canada has less than 3000 troops in Afghanistan and we're supposed to believe that the country will collapse into chaos if we pull out? What a load of tripe.
  7. Tommy Shanks from Canada writes: There are already two plans. Plan A has NATO and the West underresourcing the job of shoring up the twice democratically elected government of Afghanistan. Plan B has NATO and Aid$$ fleeing that fledging democracy, with a civil war/refugee crisis restarting within a year after our departure.

    What Canada really needs is a plan C. That would be the plan wherein we never commit to another foreign commitment that is contingent on someone else stepping up to the plate a year later. If we do not have the budget, the military and the civilian agencies to handle the nation-building aspect of such commitments, we should not make them. Period. It is an insult to our soldiers (and their families) to send them into harms way without the necessary helicopters, numbers, or aid dollars to do the job right. The simple fact is that the Canadian contingent to Kandahar should have been 3 times bigger in terms of troops to achieve the military results Canadians expect.
  8. Randy McClure from Canada writes: NeoCynic is correct. Worse still, the crooks, drug dealers and warlords who now sit in "Government" with Karzai are just as bad as the Taliban, in their own way. They're not interested in freedom for women. They couldn't care less if little girls go to school. And they're just as thuggish as the Taliban -- they're just our thugs.

    This whole affair is pathetic and sooo not Canada. Harper and his Cons have made it dangerous to wear a maple leaf on my backpack when I go abroad. All these paunchy, puffy white guys sitting around in Ottawa, greasy jowls flapping over their plates of Alberta beef deciding who should die. Makes me sick. Vote Green. Lets have a military that stays home where it belongs unless it's wearing blue berets on a real UN mission, not a fake one like this abomination.
  9. Kenneth Sitter from writes: This sounds like a never-ending commitment of lives and money with more wiggle room for the government and NATO than a newborn in Haystack Calhoun's pants.

    If this is the best advice they have, it's time to go.
  10. neil shea from Canada writes: It will be interesting to hear the opinions/views of the 19-20 odd something year olds who will be the target audience if this caper extends beyond............
  11. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Now that our young travellers are telling us that Canada is regarded as having an infantile mentality, you wonder when some of you will wake up to realize that the respect which Canada had acquired over decades has been wiped away by the Harper Govt. in just two years. First, voting pro-Israel only with the Americans at the Human Rights in Europe, then abandoning Kyoto, then agreeing to withhold the Palestinians' own customs money from them to please Israel, now they can't even have the guts to say that Canada will no longer sacrifice our young soldiers to protect the American gas pipeline route from Turkmeninstan. Boy, the Europeans think that Harper is worse than Bush's poodle; they just don't know how Canadians can be so brainwashed to believe that we are there to 'help the poor Afghans' when 50,000 Ontarians have lost their jobs and the Prime Minister refuses to put some badly need stimulus into the economy. Why, because we need more military hardware for Afghanistan. OMG!
  12. Wall Flower from Canada writes: To add insult to injury, on the day of the release of Manley's report, the Associated Press reports that an Afghan journalist has been sentenced to death for publishing an article that violates Islamic tenets.

    Need I say more?
  13. JEANNE FARINE from Vancouver, Canada writes: In cold factual examination, has Manley given us anything more than could be expected from a man who said clearly in September that he believed that the Afghanistan Mission could only end when 'the task' was completed...probably decades on, if ever? Harper wanted what he saw Manley could give him...and, except for a bit of face saving equivocation on Manley's part, Harper has what he wanted. And those of us who do not, never did, never will believe in the Afghan 'mission', have the intensified sense of frustration that goes with being on the side of the majority of Canadian opinion, but on the wrong side of a 'governing' minority.
  14. Wall Flower from Canada writes: What I'm trying to understand is why oh why do Harper, pundits and the media believe that Manley's report will influence public opinion in any shape or form?
  15. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Leaves Me Cold from Canada writes: Why is buying time a bad strategy? Manley's report buys us more time so that the other conditions he specifies in the report can be met: eg strengthening our diplomatic presence, improving the delivery of aid and training the ANA. Time is the most important thing to us right now and if we can get more of it there need not be a Plan B.
  16. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: I once thought Plan B did not exist. Lately I am beginning to think it lies in the negotiations between President Karzai and the Taleban.

    That the Taleban want all foreign troops out of Afghanistan is no secret. That Mr Karzai retains power because of those troops is obvious. Why then would he engage with the Taleban, especially by offering them places in his government?

    Because he realizes 'the West' will eventually sicken of supporting him. Because he sees the inevitability of the Taleban's return. And such return will undoubtedly result in whatever government replaces him demanding that we and every other foreign power withdraw.

    It's not much, but it seems to be all we have.
  17. Wall Flower from Canada writes: Standing on shoulders...You mean 7 years wasn't enough time?
  18. Jim Terrets from Vancouver, writes: Well that's just one more thing in the "list of things nobody wants to talk about:"

    Nobody wants to talk about the number of Afghan women and children killed by NATO,

    nobody wants to talk about the endemic corruption in the Afghan government,

    nobody wants to talk about detainee torture,

    nobody wants to talk about the endemic poverty in Afghanistan after seven years of NATO,

    nobody wants to talk about the lack of reconstruction and the disparity between money spent on war versus money spent on rebuilding,

    nobody wants to talk about the booming drug trade,

    etc... etc... etc.... so its no surprise that nobody wants to talk about "Plan B."
  19. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Leaves Me Cold from Canada writes: Wall Flower from Canada writes: Standing on shoulders...You mean 7 years wasn't enough time

    Dude we (by we I mean NATO) were in Bosnia for longer, ditto Kosovo. these countries are now being considered for entry into NATO and the EU. Patience, patience.

    At any rate the question was do we need a plan b and my answer was no - not if we meet the other conditions that are specified in Manley's manual.
  20. steve allan from Welland, Ontario, Canada writes: Let the Americans deal with it, it's their mess. They refuse to get tough with their wayward ally Israel, so why should we send our soldiers over there to die for them.
  21. Pierre-Yves P from Toronto, Canada writes: I don`t think the blackmail will work, Manley`s report contains the arguments for calling its own bluff, therefore pulling off is not a credible threat: this is the game of chicken of 'give me $1000 or I will light up this stick of dynamite and blow both of us up'. We are there, we are stuck. Better step up to the task and monetize the effort with aggressive diplomacy, on all other fronts worth pursuing. Canada just cannot leave at this point, that alone would jeopardize 20 years of foreign policy investments.
  22. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Leaves Me Cold from Canada writes: PYP writes: We are there, we are stuck. Better step up to the task and monetize the effort with aggressive diplomacy, on all other fronts worth pursuing. Canada just cannot leave at this point, that alone would jeopardize 50 years of foreign policy investments.

    Finally someone writes something that makes sense. (I changed 20 to 50 becuase that's how long we've played the game).
  23. Murray Richardson from Canada writes: Here's a Plan B: Parliament will institute a national draft that requires everyone, PM's, MP's, Deputy Leaders of the Opposition, pundits, etc, who ever publicly supported the invasion of Afghanistan for whatever noble reason, to don the uniform of his or her favorite Canadian regiment and be shipped out to free Afghanistan from the scourge of the Taliban and to protect the Western Democratic way of life. They will be required to serve indefinitely in that benighted land, or until the Afghan forces can defend themselves. The Canadian Government will continue to supply these draftees with armoured vehicles and ammunition until they achieve success. In exchange for their brave contribution to Afghanistan, and the suppression of the poppy trade, and the cause of freedom, and little girls' schooling, etc., all regular Canadian Forces, CIDA personnel, news reporters, etc. will be brought home, and all debate, nay, all thought of Afghanistan will cease here at home for the duration.
  24. Jack Robinson from London, Canada writes: There is no 'Plan B'... unless it's from Outer Space. And given the Lugosi-caped inclinations of our doppelgangster Prime Minister and his affiliations... Manley's jilted Liberal quisling creds and Deep Integration drone deployment makes his 'unbiased analysis and recommendations' nothing more than a rhetorical re-branding a badly Mac-Managed misfire.
  25. Brent Beach from Victoria, Canada writes: The third paragraph of the Introduction to the Manley report includes this: "Afghan men and women are building a government committed to the democratic rule of law and the full exercise of human rights." This statement contains at least 3 major errors.

    First - is the full exercise of human rights even possible? If you read the proposed constitution, you will see that all laws must be consistent with the constitution and with Islam. Afghanistan will be an Islamic republic. So, what we are doing there is ensuring the creation of an Islamic republic. It is not clear to me that you can have an Islamic republic in which there is a full exercise of human rights as we in Canada think of human rights.

    Second, is there any chance it will be a democracy? The first government was clearly imposed on the people by the US military. When is the next election? Can we really expect the current government to win in a free and fair election in the near term? Almost everyone agrees that the government is completely corrupt. It owes more allegiance to the war lords and poppy dealers than the people.

    Finally, is it even a country? Looking at the maps, it is not even clear that Afghanistan is a country. It is ethnically diverse, with areas that perhaps should be part of neighbouring countries.

    If you have those three errors underlying your report, what chance is there that the recommendations make any sense? Virtually none.

    Given a realistic assessment, using the opposite assumptions, there is only one answer - divide and pacify. Split the country up ethnically, attaching the bits to neighbouring countries (assuming they would want them). Let each country come to an accommodation with its own tribes people in their new province.

    Forget plans A and B, lets head straight for plan 0 - no Afghanistan.
  26. Preston Jacob from Canada writes: The question below is not really about Afghanistan, more about the dangerous illusion that public (read press) have a right to know about the planning process of politicians.

    Is it really a good idea to tell your plan B to someone who writes a blog heading into a tough negotiation?
  27. Blue Magic ...... from Canada writes: Um,. just a thought but the american's will be plan B, 1000 troops plzzz.

    The way the American election is going that will be right up there ally. 1000 is nothing, the marines are itching to get in there.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/washington/11military.html?pagewanted=print

    They are already about to send 3200 for a 7 month tour, witch just happen to end when the US election will be decided..

    And all the hopfulls in the presidential election want to do more in afghanistan.
  28. Mervin Hollingsworth from Saskatoon, Sk., Canada writes: Manley has not told us anything we didn't know or suspect. If we really want to win the war all countries must share in the burden and send troops to Afghanistan. However, approaching the mission in a half hearted way and expecting to win is a recipe for disaster.
    The meeting in Nato is crucial and some hard decisions will need to be made by Nato. Canada is a small part of the puzzle. However, I accept Manley's view that without more help in Kandahar province we are going to lose that battle. Without more overall troops Nato is going to lose the war. It is a battle of ideologies and they have many more people prepared to die than us.
    However, with the Manley report in hand Harper has another weapon at his disposal. Nato may not bite but at least we can leave with our heads held up high saying we gave it our best shot.
  29. Nick Wright from Halifax, Canada writes: Plan B is to let the Afghans sort it out themselves, as they were in the process of doing when 9/11 stopped play in 2001, so to speak. At that point, the Taliban were in decline throughout the country; for instance, Ismail Khan had escaped his Taliban captors and was stirring up the western Afghans around Herat to kick the Taliban out, and they were doing so quite successfully. He still rules Herat, and no one in their right mind would challenge him.

    Rural Afghans in remote areas were executing or driving out their tiny Taliban garrisons, and even the people in Kandahar, where the Taliban arose and whose social outlook the Taliban most represented, had tired of them and were asking local former mujahideen leaders to form a front to kick them out.

    Since then, the American Coalition, including NATO, has done the small core of Taliban the inestimable favour of occupying the country, installing a puppet government, and trying to tell the Afghans how to live, at the point of a gun--something Afghans feel is even worse than the Taliban. So when the Taliban offer the only organized resistance to the foreigners, disaffected Afghans hold their noses and join forces with them.

    If the Coalition leaves, yes, the civil war will continue, but Afghans have been doing this for millennia, and they know much better than we do how to put unpopular would-be rulers in their place. I have complete faith in them.

    As far as international terrorism is concerned, the minute al Qa'eda shows its face in a (temporarily) Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, the West will make sure that the Taliban rulers will never be able to sleep twice in the same bed, which of course they already know. OBL will not be welcome.

  • Nick Wright from Halifax, Canada writes: Hmm, the blog cut off the last paragraph in my post above.

    It said: "As to Plan A, John Manley has just fixed 2011 as our departure date, since he knows perfectly well that the conditions for our remaining will not, if adopted, be fulfilled by NATO."
  • The Emperor's Paparazzi from Canada writes:
    Golly gee! You mean that if an additional 1,000 soldiers had been sent to Afghanistan 6 years ago, this war would have been over 5 years ago.

    Way to go, Manley! Where were you when we needed you in Cabinet 6 years ago????
  • Michael C from Scarborough, Canada writes: I have no problem with the extension of this mission as suggested by the panel led by Mr Manley. It's doable, it's cohesive and it's objective. The success of this mission led by NATO and the UN, known as ISAF, should be the single biggest objective of our government and of our nation moving forward in the foreign policy area. We entered into Bosnia and Kosovo and have stayed more than fifteen years. We are seeing those two nations emerge to request entrance into both the EU and into NATO. It is now our duty to assist the Afghan people in being able to step into the modern world as the whole nation that they have started to create. The current Afghan president was not "appointed" by the US but elected by the people of Afghanistan where almost 74% of it's eligible voters actually voted. They have had two parliamentary elections both with over 70% turnout. Some of the posters here have obviously no idea whatsoever what the costs of freedom actually can be. They have no comprehension that the things they take for granted or deign that others will do for them are always hard fought. They are not handed to you on a silver platters. They are not showered from the heavens or granted by Royal proclamations. You can't buy them from ebay or download them from itunes. They are rarely, if ever, easily won and must be protected and fought for on a continual basis. Surely the notions and morals that we value are not only worth savouring but worth saving, protecting and extending to others. If people don't see that then the idiot savants have won and all will be truly lost.
  • Don Wilson from Debert, NS, Canada writes: It is appalling to read the many foolish comments written above by nieve people that simply don't understand the whole picture that is Afganistan. There is only one reason that Canadian troops should be there - that is to eradicate the poppy growing , and replace those fields with crops that can be sold elsewhere in the world - mainly vegetables , grapes and like crops . Labor is cheap there - if our Canadian companies feel the need to manufacture with cheap labor , let them use Afgan people - build factories there . CIDA has been largely a waste of money for many years - they are virtually useless in Afganistan . Let our military handle all the construction / reconstruction , distributition of supplies. What better way to win hearts and minds ? Lastly - it will take a few generations of Afganis before any real democracy takes hold . It is still a tribal country as it has been for thousands of years . A few years of military in that area isn't going to make enough difference . We are there for at least as long as Bosnia . Canada needs to pull out of Nato , or eject those nations that want to benefit from less street drugs , but don't want to pull a fair share of the burden of bringing this country into the 20th century ( getting it into the 21st century will come later ) . That will free up some funds to get on with work in Afganistan. If Canada and the USA leave Afganistan , just watch the chaos that will ensue in the streets of Germany , Spain and France , and perhaps even in the UK in areas like Birmingham and Leeds . It may have to go to that before they will wish they had stepped up to the plate in 2008 and beyond . they will be too busy at home within 2 years to see the civil war that will be happening in Afganistan as the many tribes within and without fight over land .
  • Nick Wright from Halifax, Canada writes: Don Wilson wrote: "It will take a few generations of Afganis (sic) before any real democracy takes hold . It is still a tribal country as it has been for thousands of years ."

    What on earth makes you think most Afghans want democracy as you define it? Assuming that they do (something all "true religions" do) is the root of our self-absorbed and self-referential "mission" there, but it is a poisoned root, and it will produce no good fruit--except our own dismay and disruption.
  • diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Wall Flower:-- Nice to see you back.
  • Randy McClure from Canada writes: Michael C from Scarborough, Canada writes: The current Afghan president was not "appointed" by the US but elected by the people of Afghanistan where almost 74% of it's eligible voters actually voted. They have had two parliamentary elections both with over 70% turnout. Some of the posters here have obviously no idea whatsoever what the costs of freedom actually can be. They have no comprehension that the things they take for granted or deign that others will do for them are always hard fought. They are not handed to you on a silver platters. ------ Karzai is hated by his fellow Pashtun and is considered a traitor. He is effectively the President of Kabul and has no real authority in the North or South. Those regions are "run" by regional warlords, tribal chieftans and old-fashioned thugs. You write very eloquently of freedom. However, our freedom has nothing to do with Afghanistan. It's not our country. Would you die for the Islamic Republic of Afhganistan and it's medieval sharia legal system? Because that's what you're asking our sons and daughters to do. This place would mean nothing to us if not for the fact it is strategically placed near important sources of oil and gas and will serve a a good staging ground in a future war with Iran, Russia or China. And as for the former Yugoslavia, there is about to be another civila war in Bosnia, now that some unltrantionalist serbs are set to win elections again. You need to read Gwyn Dyer's excellent book, "The Mess They Made." Uncanilly accurate.
  • diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Don Wilson:-- I am astounded by your post. First of all, if there were any crop that would actually enjoy demand, it is the poppy crop. There is a worldwide shortage of legal painkillers, which Big Pharma would like to maintain. That crop could be sold elsewhere. The Afghans are already skilled agrarians and, in my opinion, we ought not try to convert them to our idea of agriculture - monoculture, pesticide- and herbicide-intensive, fuel-intensive, etc. Most of the NGOs that enjoyed access to Afghanistan even in the time of the Taliban are hard-pressed to maintain their programs. Why? Because of what you recommend: a conflation of military might and aid. Whatever reconstruction is required is thanks to military might. Knock it down and then rebuild it - makes sense to me. What makes far more sense is for the Afghans themselves to determine what reconstruction they require. I will add that if the "war on drugs" were recognized for the abysmal failure that it is, there might be less enthusiasm for a "war on terror".
  • Ruth Walker from Edmonton, Canada writes: The Americans blew it for us when they burned the crops. They just don't get the importance of hearts and minds, and the certainly have no respect for the local culture. Troops around here report that Americans don't even know how to make friends with the kids.

    The USA is going to leave us holding the bag on this one, mark my words. They only know how to make a mess.

    Frankly, I think a "womanly" report might have made more sense. But then, no one asked any women, did you, Mr. PM???
  • della baird from vancouver, Canada writes: dee vancouver: approximately a year ago i saw a cbc documentary about young boys from the southern u,s, if i recall most of them were serving in the national guard at the time they were posted to iraq. we watched these young people with their families and friends. most of them did not want to go. we saw a lot of tears, from that group of twenty or so. they also stated they should not have to go because they were already in the guard. the film followed followed them to iraq. the first words upon landing were,"this eqipment is vietnam issue! why in hell would they give us this?that included all manner of war vehicles. i cannot name them,my apologies. near the end of the doc, they showed and reported that of the group,16 to eighteen were already dead. these boys were not rich. most soldiers are not. the us army gave them crap to fight with because they were considered as such. so much for a country that devalues the poor and so much for canada that deals the poor of this country a rotten deck. i am fed up with this place as i am sick of all who practice their own particular style of genocide. if i were a quitter,i would be echoing an american couple i spoke to in niagara falls in 95'.and i quote:"we're glad we're on our way out". what a sad but prophetic legacy for some. their son app. 24 yrs. old sat on the bus bench as they said this. the couple said they had not been to niagara for 15 yrs, and wanted their son to see it as the canadian side had the best view. i still think of them in all this turmoil and their sad last trip they claimed to the 'falls'. where is their son now. i hope he is as happy as he can be. i fascinates me still that some people never tire of the same old dogs barking the same old orders!!!!! and that includes canadians, but then,you knew that, did'nt you.
  • Voice of Reason from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    No one really knows where Dion stands. One minute he's supports a NATO invasion of Pakistan because he learned that the Taliban are from Pakistan and slip across the boarder where NATO troops won't follow. But when pressed about this, he claims that such an invasion wouldn't be a military invasion. Perhaps Mr. Dion thinks he can invade with a bunch of ice cream vendors selling fudgiecles. What's been most upsetting about the liberals under Dion is their focus on just about every scandal conceivable without ever asking any questions which could be constructively used to help our kids. For a party which took us to Kandahar without a parliamentary debate, one would think they'd be more supportive of the mission. And even today after the release of the Manley report, Mr. Dion is unprepared to say anything, claiming it's a 90 page document. Yet Mr. Rae read it and claimed that Mr. Manley's report provides a lot of wiggle room. I'm afraid what they say about Mr. Dion is true-he's not a leader.
  • Lying Conservative from Western, Canada writes: ........
    If you believe our politicians, the afghan army has been in training for over 5 years now.
    They will be ready for retirement before long..................
  • Voice of Reason from Ottawa, Canada writes:
    Don said "There is only one reason that Canadian troops should be there - that is to eradicate the poppy growing , and replace those fields with crops that can be sold elsewhere in the world - mainly vegetables , grapes and like crops "

    Wrong. Canada is there because the UN wants us there and we are strong supporters of the UN. And the poppy industry should be regulated so that the produce can be legitimately sold on world markets. In addition to this other enterprises should be allowed to develop in order to enhance the standard of living of ordinary Afghans and provide them with an alternative to joining the Pakistani Taliban. Helping Afghanistan will require far more than warriors.
  • F.T. Ward from Canada writes: I'd like to see the mechanics of implimenting Manley's recommendations. Do we tell NATO we're leaving and if they pony up another battalion cancel our flights? Do we generate forces in case we do stay? What kind of units do we prepare? What if NATO says you guys carry on with hunting Taliban and we'll train the Afghans? Will parliament be asked to pass a resoultion extending the mission with a drop dead date for the NATO battalion and helicopters?
  • Hmmmer ? from Recovery, Canada writes: Wow, I wrote this really cool essay and the GM censors burned it.

    Basically, what I was trying to say was, not enough troops!

    Go to Wiki and look up, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Soviet war in Afghanistan.

    Look at troop strength, area, topography, terrain, outcome, etc.

    It makes this current debacle look like a sham. As if we are supposed to see this kind of show. Distracting don't ya' think?

    Like we're watching Canada's favorite war zone survivor show TaDa!

    Buy more friggin helicopters? WHAT?

    You mean we just find out NOW from a "special report" our soldiers don't have the gear.

    WHY? Why would a commanding General Officer send troops into combat without the stuff? (I want that answered!)

    Only to have some dullard PM, ask some has been, to do a report.

    Didn't they support our troops?? Well, did they?

    Disgusting! Really sick.
    Are they telling me that some of those people who were fighting someone else's friggin stupid war should be alive right now but for some stinkin' choppers we could have borrowed from the Yanks.

    Those kids should be here writing a post.

    Not six feet under!

    Do you still believe in this?

    I don't.

    Hmmmer. Things that make ya' go hmmm?
  • D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: Let the war lords and the Taliban divide the spoils. For crying out loud, what are the capabilities of the Afghan 'army,' with nothing, repeat- nothing to show for seven years in the effort to stabilize the country? But what about the political implications of the Manley report for S. Harper? I think he will be able to say it gives him lots of wiggle-room (word stolen from a post above), but I don't think he would act too quickly. I mean, reports come and go. We won't notice if nothing much happens. And the report will give him a boost, at least among voters who are undecided about the mission. The report gives some credibility to the mission. But how long will this little boost last?
  • Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...this is not acceptable....Canada will have fulfilled her commitment next year....it's time others take up the slack....we have paid dearly with the blood of our finest...time to bring our people home....
  • Voice of Reason from Ottawa, Canada writes:
    I support the mission because I support the UN. Having said that, I believe that other countries are not pulling their weight and this includes the Afghans themselves. I also believe we should be rotated out of Kandahar and into a safer role for four or five years. What's regrettable is that idiot Bush who went into Iraq. This has cost us 70 or so of our best. If the Americans stayed in Afghanistan they would have had bin Ladden, the Taliban would not be trying to retake the joint and we could have done a better job working with their civilians.
  • Chris H. from Edmonton, Canada writes: Does anyone on this forum actually have a clue what they're talking about? It's funny that so many people think they know better than those who have actually been there and the know first hand about what the mission entails. Criticize all you want, but there is no legitimate case for running away from Afghanistan. I can't see any alternative that benefits us or the Afghan people. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?
  • The Only Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes: If you believe our politicians, the afghan army has been in training for over 5 years now.
    They will soon be ready for retirement ..................
  • The Only Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes: ................. Sorry Chris
    those who have actually been there and know first hand about what the mission entails are doing a very poor job of explaining the mission.
    Some of our "allies" bombed weddings and hospitals and called it "nation building"
  • Voice of Reason from Ottawa, Canada writes:
    During the beginning of the second world war, NAZI Germany occupied Czechoslovakia and latter France. This was wrong as it was wrong for France to occupy Germany during the rule of Napolean. Saddam Husein occupied Kuwait which was wrong and England evicted Irish Catholic from Ireland and set up plantations. This was wrong.

    At some point , we decided that we will not sit back and watch an occupying force destroy another country. In a sense this is what happened when the Taliban invaded Afghanistan. And even then we did nothing about it until they got our attention via 911.

    Now our own security is tied to Afghanistan as well as our support for the UN and NATO.
  • The Only Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes:
    Voice,
    I think the Taliban is a group of religious conservatives that organized in Afghanistan and took power there.
    What country do you think they invaded FROM ?
  • The Only Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes:
    If you believe our politicians, the afghan army has been training for over 5 years now.
    They will soon be ready for retirement ..................
    Canada took only 6 years (1939-1945) to train an army and defeat the German Neo-cons.
  • diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: D. B. from Greater Sask:-- I have just finished reading that report. It seems completely meatless. Punches pulled. I expected an insight or two - something that a careful gleaner of the daily news (albeit from a few sources) would not have learned or concluded - zilch. I caught an interview with Pamela Wallin and noted a statement that she made (I found it oddly backwards). Much to my surprise I saw the same phrase in the report. A talking point that she'd memorized, apparently. F.T. Ward is right - how in heaven would one implement these recommendations?
  • diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: D. B. from Greater Sask:-- I have just finished reading that report. It seems completely meatless. Punches pulled. I expected an insight or two - something that a careful gleaner of the daily news (albeit from a few sources) would not have learned or concluded - zilch. I caught an interview with Pamela Wallin and noted a statement that she made (I found it oddly backwards). Much to my surprise I saw the same phrase in the report. A talking point that she'd memorized, apparently. F.T. Ward is right - how in heaven would one implement these recommendations?
  • smilin smiler from T'bay, Canada writes: Of course the USA will come up with 1000 troops and we'll be in Afghanistan till 2011. How sweet of Canadians to think the US will allow NATO to fall apart just because the Euro allies won't allow their conscripted troops to die in Afghanistan- obvious political suicide. NATO serves the larger military purpose of keeping the USA in Russia's face and that's not going to change with the renewed Putinesque revival there.
  • Shawn Bull from Canada writes: It was a very good plan put together that definees the current state of the war and what to do moving forward.

    I support the plan 100%.
  • Tony Mareschealle from mississauga, Canada writes: It goes beyond a Plan A or B. What it really boils down to is that NATO is now for all intents and purposes a defunct organisation. European member nations have no interest in pursuing a war that is of no real threat or interest to them - if it were Kosovo now, that would be a different story. And remember we are there because the US invoked that little clause in NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all - how convenient

    Canada should withdraw its troops from a Combat role in 2009, if no ome steps up to the plate - point proved, the Americans are there for a different reason, and while they talk about helping a nation rebuild itself - that really rings hollow.

    In the long run, it would be far better for us to widraw from NATO, focus on our own territorial woories the North - and if and when we can operate under a UN umbrella do so.

    Time to leave while the getting is good.
  • The Only Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes:
    The report claims that the Afghan army now has 47,000 troops.
    If you believe our politicians, the afghan army has been training for over 5 years now.
    I think the Aghan army needs to stop training and get to work.
    Foreign troops are not needed, they don't even speak the language .
  • runner danchuk from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Why are we in Kandahar anyways? These people have their own beliefs, values and standards. They may be similar to many Canadians; however, they have their own agenda built on their system.

    Can't understand why we are there.
  • Ian St. John from Canada writes: "runner danchuk from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Can't understand why we are there. " In theory it is a U.N. security council operation to punish/remove the Taliban for supporting international terror that was implemented in the echos of 9/11. There seems to be wide agreement that the Taliban were religious extremists ( you'd have to be deaf, dumb, blind and stupid to think otherwise after blowing up the Buddha, a national treasure) As well, I don't know of any military intelligence that denied the existance of many 'terrorist training camps'. Canada signed on in support of the U.S. as there was little doubt that the training camps played a role in the later attacks. That said, there is nothing in the U.N. charter that allows for invasion or 'regime change' for any member nation. Nobody would have signed the charter if they thought it put them at risk of any invasion by other members. Clearly the invasion of Afghanistan was illegal by international law, regardless of justification. While perhaps justifiable *outside* of the law, it is a slippery slope that led to the U.S. declaring its intent for 'regime change' in any middle eastern country that dared to defy them. I.e. Iraq , and next may be Iran, which is clearly NOT supportable based on 'threat assessment' but only as a private war by the U.S. president who wanted to be remembered.. I think that one came true. He will be there with Caligula, Nero, etc.. We should be in Afghanistan, however NOT as a military force. It will solve nothing which is why we are in the quandary of pulling out and letting the country go to the Taliban or continue fighting and letting the country go to the Taliban ( although with more Canadian casualties). Afghanistan cannot be 'propped up' forever by military intervention. The real fight is to change the culture and economy enough to support a central government and the central government enough to make it vital to the self interest of the Afghani people.
  • Stewart Sinclair from Toronto, Canada writes: John Taylor from Surrey, Canada writes: .... Why don't we just send another 1000 troops ourselves?

    First of all because we don't really have them to spare. Either we mobilize all the reserves (if they haven't been effectively mobilized already). But in this case the government has still not passed legislation to protect their jobs when they get back. I supposed Harper and Co. are afraid to offend their friends in big business.

    Or the army increases the amount of time the Battle Groups spend in the line. My understanding is that they are already being stretched to the limit. What we get then is burn out with subsequent inability to train new recruits. As for new recruits, fancy adds won't do it. They need to know that they are not going to fed into a hopeless meat grinder to score brownie points for Harper and Co. in Washington.
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    Adam Radwanski

    Adam Radwanski is a member of The Globe and Mail's editorial board. He blogs on all matters political, with commentary and analysis of what's making news (and what should be making news).

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