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Strangers in the night

CATE COCHRAN

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 8:45 AM EDT 16/02/08

It's no longer taboo to talk about the sexless marriage as the issue goes mainstream in a sex-obsessed culture. Now if only we could all agree on a solution. ...Read the full article

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  1. Pat Gesner from Canada writes: What about marriages where it is a business arrangement- in otherwords arranged marriages. Is there still sex because that is what was bargined for at the start of the marriage? - it never was a case of mutral desire. In most cases the women have no options but men are free to find another option. Came across a study of Turkey (New York Times???)where the men defended multiple wives on the basis that the first was arranged, the second was for love - to limit them to one wife as unfair to them. It was not clear if they felt it was unfair to the first wife. All men should have the satisfaction of love in marriage while only 1 in 2 women can hope for love in marriages ? How come insight cannot be made from other cultures? If 'culture' is the basis, there is no reason our society cannot change futher. We just have not found the solution to the right balance. We have finally decided parenting does not depend of the sexes involved ( do not have to be Mummy and Daddy) Resistance to that idea is there but the high rate of divorces has forced people to confront the idea that a married hetrosexual couple of biological parents is not essential to grow up to be a happy adult. Extended family, adoption, single, step and homosexul parenting can work just as well as hetrosexual biological parent parenting.
  2. CD W from Canada writes: this story has just described Bill and Hillary, they just wont admit it.
  3. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Pat Gesner

    A bit of correction to your very thoughtful post.

    In Turkey, it was not the man who married 2. It was the 2 women who married him.

    The first woman married him because she must have chosen him through an arranged marriage. This option is available to women.

    The second married him for love. Why not.

    Islamic marriage is not a two-way I-do I-do street. It is one way. Go to any Nikah ceremony of any sect, Sunni Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki, Hanbali, or Shis Jafari, it is the woman (or her agent) who proposes. The man (or his agent) can accept, reject, or ask for renegotian of the terms and conditions the women is demanding. The women is not asked (as in the West) if she takes him as her husband. She offered herself in the first place.

    Since it is the woman who chooses she does not have to bare herself. Hence the socio-economic basis of the Hijab. In the West since a woman is chosen (man proposes), she must show her wares to increase her chances. Logical.
  4. Dan Green from Palm Beach Gardens Florida, United States writes: Tilt. All these stats may have substance, however I saw no mention of marriages staying put, because of the kids. I think you'll find, that is the biggest reason people hang in there.
  5. Jim Murray from Saint Paul, United States writes: Three guys were having a beer in a bar and the subject of their sex lives came up. The first guy said he and his wife had sex almost every night. The second said two times a week was average for them. Then the third guy, absolutely beaming, said he and his wife had sex once a month.
    'Once a month?' he was asked. 'Then why are you so happy?'
    'Because tonight's the night!'
  6. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Canada writes: Wouldn't it just be logical on a biological basis that sex drive go down somewhat once the kids are born? We are so far from taking into consideration natural, evolutionary and genetic perspectives when examining questions like this.

    So people get all freaked out about desire going down when they should just chill out and appreciate it when it naturally and spontaneously comes around in their life as a couple.
  7. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    CD W

    You are being unkind to Western women.

    At divorce time they are only asking for their Rights that were denied to them during marriage.

    The Right to propose
    The Right to be free from household duties
    The Right to be free from child rearing
    The Right to a good sex
    The Right to keep their income and wealth acquired during marriage.

    When our society will give the women these Rights, they will not ask for the sun and the moon at divorce. Do they not have to survive?

    Come on males. Be a man. Give women their Rights.
  8. Alain LeBlanc from Canada writes: Love is infinitely more than sex. If responsible and commited love is a weak or non-exiistant part of the marriage,no amount of sex will save it.

    On the other hand love and responsibility to your partner and your children will be the key to harmony and satisfaction in a relationship,whether sex is frequent,infrequent, or non-existent.
  9. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Alain LeBlanc: Greetings.

    I am afraid I do not share your viewpoint.

    If you want great sex, first make yourself above love. Love is a need. But sex is not a need or a job, it is a joy and a pleasure.

    A need for love shows an incomplete self. So first make yourself complete by actively acquiring all the traits you find in person you tend to fall in love with.

    Then find a wholesome other. Mutual sex will blow out your mind.
  10. John Williams from Ajax, Canada writes: Marriage has always been a SURVIVAL BOND based on child-rearing division of labour.

    But now, if you are in a sexless marriage, its pretty easy to deal with.

    1) Fix it.
    2) get out of it.

    If not, then stop whining about it. Do I care if you CHOOSE to live in a sexless marriage, or if you want to eat your cornflakes dry, or drink your coffee black, or kill yourself with smoking?

    This ain't rocket science. Fix-it, or get out.
    Or choose to live in it, but stop whining about how you have to eat your cornflakes dry when that is what you choose.
  11. dwight steadman from Fort Macleod from Canada writes: Not a sex obsessed culture, a PORNOGRAPHY obsessed culture.
  12. Carl White from Canada writes: '“I want to tell other women that they are not alone in not wanting to have sex with their long-term partners.”

    She has also been clear about her long-range plan: to leave her husband in search of sexual fulfilment once the children are grown.'

    And then in the next or previous article men are berated for avoiding marriage. Hmm, I wonder why?

    Not that I believe the so-called marriage strike is solely due to men waking up to how raw a deal marriage can be these days.

    Now that women are going to university in droves and setting themselves up in professional careers, it's becoming more difficult to find a man that meets a prime criterion on the checklist: does he improve my financial situation significantly?

    If you don't believe that some women are this mercenary, just read the quote above.
  13. Wayne Young from Victoria BC, Canada writes: The problem is completely biological and is an effect of the myth's that mankind has created such as a one to one committed relationship that is supposed to last forever. Where did this idea come from there are many cultures through history that did not have it. Sex and novelty go hand in hand and I am quite sure that there are many evolutionary reasons for it. How on earth can anyone expect a man to only have sex with one woman or vice versa for the rest of their life ... think about ... the concept actually is quite absurd but somehow we have allowed our culture to incorporate it when it is impossible therefore it creates a sort of schizophrenic psychollogical condition and I think is probably the main reason of so much depression in married couples. Sex is not love and should never be considered such.
  14. Go Oilers Go! from Canada writes: I'm not married so I can't speak from experience. I've never had a long term relationship where this has occured. However this story sounds like the conversation I hear at lunch every week. Sex once a month, maybe, and on 'special' days. Oral? That's just for dating apparently.

    It some mays I think it's normal for sexual activity to drop off somewhat from at the beginning of a relationship. When it's the 1,234 time you're having sex with the same person it isn't new and exciting anymore. Like every aspect of a relationship work is required to keep things interesting.

    One common thing I have noticed though is that the complaining at lunch goes up after kids are born. In most cases it seems sex is no longer an option and married men are reduced to getting carpal tunnel surfing youporn.
  15. navi avos from portland, United States writes: nice article. annoying lists of comments by a 'religious' man from toronto. i hope he is not representative of his community there.
    the sexual act is primarily a reproductive act, albeit a highly pleasurable one. there are no guarantees or entitlements here - to try and codify that is absurd, it is not a basic human 'right'. it has a lot of psychosocial baggage associated with it because it is relatively scarce and various religions have had their way with how it is treated. if you perceive your respective situation as untenable, first look at yourself and your partner - perhaps it is hard to admit that you chose poorly. accept that people's energy level dips with jobs and kids - it is not just you who feels like this, maybe it is just part of the human condition. many have suffered before you. many paths have been tried. good luck, just open your eyes to film and literature, you may get inspired.
  16. Sharon G from Canada writes: Perhaps some of the women have lost their sex drive because of the pill. I know many women are surprised when they go off the pill and rediscover that they actually want sex!
  17. Jim Cohoon from Canada writes: Germaine Greer once wrote that 'sex is the lubricant of the consumer economy'. When sex is culturally seen that way, marriage itself soon becomes transformed into a consumer commodity, a creature of the consumer imperative for instant gratification. Thus it is interesting that the divorce rates, as high as they are these days, aren't even higher -- i.e., there must be something other than sex that keeps mnay couples together (voluntarily) over long periods. Our consumer culture has been very successful in persuading many people to place sex above love in life and in marriage, but maybe, at least on a subconscious level, many humans realize that, after all, at the end of the day, and at the end of a life, it is love that matters most.
  18. Eric Kirkpatrick from Vancouver, B.C., Canada writes: Have been interested in sex since puberty. That's the way God or evolution planned it. Was in love and married until my wife died of cancer. Sex was no problem. My wife's death did not kill my interest in sex. The problem with sex is the rules around sex have for thousands of years, been established and enforced by the church (or religion) and those who are married. With the advent of the Pill, IUD and more open discussion around sex the church and married crowd have lost power over sex and are reluctant to admit it.
  19. Eric Stewart from Canada writes: Syed... well spoken... again.
  20. Harbinger from Out West from Prince George, Canada writes: Don't marry for money. It's cheaper to borrow it. Love is grand. Divorce is 10 grand.
  21. J Planet from Montreal, Canada writes: Jim Murray from Saint Paul, United States writes: Three guys were having a beer...

    For his retirement, my dad used to send jokes like this out to his fan club every day. Boy, do I miss them. Thanks.
  22. L Harder from Canada writes: The institution of marriage is more or less obsolete. The problem is trying to make this institution fit with modern life.
  23. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Harbinger... writes: 'Love is grand. Divorce is 10 grand.'

    That one-liner is certainly outdated. Inflation has driven lawyer costs up way above ten grand.
  24. zen rainbow from here there, Canada writes: The true reason for sex is to biologically reproduce. Once this reproduction has taken place there is no need for sexual intercourse. For those who desire sex after procreating are delusional, and those who can't contemplate a marriage minus sex are too. Adults who are mature and have grown up re: sex are questioned by deluded others who want to fix them to having sex when ironically they are the ones who need fixing.
  25. Sean L. from Toronto, Canada writes: Hey, what happend to Syed Abbas's first crazy post about how this was an example of why Islam was a superior culture to ours, and was destined to overthrow/replace us?

    It gave a great insight into this immigrants view of the west - I have to wonder why he wanted to come here with such a low opinion of our culture.

    Did someone flag his comment as offensive? I found his delusion to be funny, and at the same time concerning. Either way, I bet he is on the RCMP short list of crazy people to watch.
  26. Tinfoil Hatt from Tuggville, Canada writes: All I know is that internet porn saved my marriage.
  27. Alchemical Methods from Ottawa, Canada writes: For me, the day of a stay at home mum with small children is split into 5, 10 and 15 minute segments of mediation, minutia, mucous oh and a bit of monotony thrown in for good measure. My husbands is home for about 2 waking hours of it per day during which time he is either prepping for his own day or gearing down at the end of it. We're both exhausted. With only precious time left to decompress and be adults together... it is no wonder it can be tough to find the energy and adult space in which to connect at an emotional and physical level. We don't want our time together to be one of the harried 5, 10 or 15 minute segments... If we do manage to steal a few moments together we're still negotiating the business of the next day and... oops we still need to throw in that last load of laundry before we hit the sack.
  28. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    zen rainbow

    Nature wants survival, growth, and evolution, and made sex an enjoyable activity.

    With women opting not to have children at all, no purpose left for sex between a woman and a man. Therefore same-sex purposeless sex is increasing in the Hellenized West just as it did in Athens.

    If Ms Cochran laments the sorry state of heterosexual sex today, just wait 10 years. Increasing fear and uncertainty will nosedive birth rate in the West further.

    Whereas the Hellenized West turns to purposeless unproductive sex, Muslims are enjoying sexual revolution. Why?

    First, it is a woman's call in Islam, not a man's.
    Wives are legally exempt from household duties.
    Wives are legally exempt from child rearing.
    Wives can legally demand satisfaction in bed.
    Wives keep the income they earn - security.

    Sean L.
    The post disappeared because Ms. Cochran may have felt that I was prosletysing. You can not suppress the truth. It will become known no matter how. Good try.
  29. Edward Ertl from Saint Leolin, NB, Canada writes: Well Syed, Sure, sex is a joy and a pleasure, but it is too a need, driven by our hormones and our eyes, and our wonderful momentary little delusions. "Love is a need" ? This is meaningless if you cannot put it in some kind of context. The only way I see it as a need, at the moment, is as the need for fulfillment. What better to live for, plus your children, unless one is some kind of megalo-something or other? Could the universal problem be that guys are simply too self-centered and perfunctory, too quick to take their jollies and let her crash without getting a smidgin of hers? Oh, she is not without blame either; so why do women let their men get away with this? For her part, she needs to forever be coy, even shy as when they were a-courting, she needs to tease him and then "encourage" him to tease and tremble HER until she begs him to come aboard. Only then should he drop his buck in the coinslot and get down to serious pinball. Touch her and tease her so deftly that she will never want to leave you alone. Until women learn to teach their lovers how to really treat a woman, there will forever be nothin' happenin' in the bedroom. And yes ladies, we men seem superficial, but her appearance IS what turns us on. So forget about the politics and do what you need to do to keep us BOTH lookin' great. To those who say there's no time in the day for intimacy, well, maybe a half a day of sick leave for the "slap and tickle syndrome" now and then... "After children, no purpose left for sex between a woman and a man,"!!!? Have you never felt at such a loss for words to express your love that the only way left is to draw out the ultimate act of intimacy and trust until you are both spent and satiated, and even more in love; not to procreate but just to say "this too is how I love you."?
  30. Pete A from Canada writes: "Syed Abbas:
    First, it is a woman's call in Islam, not a man's.
    Wives are legally exempt from household duties.
    Wives are legally exempt from child rearing.
    Wives can legally demand satisfaction in bed.
    Wives keep the income they earn - security."

    Try tell that to the politicians in the mideast.
    You should be putting things right in that region instead of wasting your time preaching to a bunch of "lost cause" like us (excluding you)
  31. L Harder from Canada writes: Syed:

    There is no set rule about choice in any culture, just preconceptions about it. As usual when it comes to sex, people say one thing and do another.

    A mechanism hard wired (called a proximal cause) to ensure the thing that evolution demands, attempts at reproduction (ultimate cause). This means that sex will always happen unless other proximal causes override it. You may not feel like having sex if your life is in imminent danger.

    Sex is probably not as common place as it should be because an long list of proximal causes. Religion has created a bunch of rules that have outlived their usefulness, society is placing such demands on people (common theme in this article) that they have no energy for sex. Living together for any length of time creates tension, discontent and boredom between most people making sex not so appealing. People get fat and otherwise unattractive for various reasons and lose their sex appeal. These things cross most cultural boundaries. Besides a few hunter gathering cultures, modern people are subject to these kinds of stresses that limit sex.

    In my experience, people who living on their own, are fit, are in relationships of some sort, are social, don't have a list of hang ups, and don't have children have the most sex.
  32. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Pete A

    I guess you only see the Saudi Arabia as the example of Islam.

    You can not have it both ways. On the one hand the Westerners blame Islam for being licentious and feminine like the Ottomans, on the other, of being prude and misogynist like the Saudis.

    In any case, these Rights are there on the books and are enforced legally if a woman pushes the case.

    Pray tell me when would the women in the West would have these Rights, even theoretically on the Books? 2050, 2550, 3050?

    I would say never. The males would never allow it. Even today, a Western man does not take a no for a no, let alone give the women an exclusive Right to propose. 100% of Western men I know would freak out if a woman walks upto them and offers herself sexually in a relationship. They would consider her as loose. In Islam, this is the norm, and no male is permitted to propose so the matter of a female no means no does not arise.
  33. Gets laid on craigslist from Canada writes: I can't believe there was no mention of the large number of married men seeking sex (often with other men) on craigslist. There are almost no women posting on the site.

    What the article just didn't talk about is the fact that lots of the men and (apparently) almost no women in sexless marriages are looking for or having affairs.
  34. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    L Harder

    Religions are nothing but socio-economic strategies to answer the fundamental existential question of survival, growth, and evolution.

    Each religion has embedded in it a unit wealth generating system, resource allocation preferences, planning horizon, formula for output distribution. Spiritual icing and Rituals simply bond people of the same outlook together.

    The Tribal Equity Islam of Moses was right for the Pastoral Era, the Family Love Islam of Jesus was the best way for the agrarian era, and the Individual Rights Islam of Mohammed the optimal way for the Trading economy. Moses was a shepherd, Jesus an artisan in Fertile Crescent, and Mohammed a small businessman in the Trading centre of Mecca. The three great economists proposed the best systems for their times. Today, we are in the Trading Era, therefore, the growing popularity of Islam of Mohammed.

    Religious rules for sex are meant to promote the socio-economics embedded in the religion.

  35. Brad MacBeth from Kelowna, BC, Canada writes: If sex is all about me (which has been the great outcome of the sexual 'revolution'), then ultimately who will want to continue to have sex with me? If we're all sexual mercenaries, in it for our own gain (my pleasure), then no wonder it all falls apart. We re-invigorate our illusions by jumping to another partner, mistaking the titilation this brings for intimacy. True intimacy is born of selflessness, and a desire to know, love, and serve the other. Sex carries with it many purposes--procreation, intimacy, shared pleasure, breaking down of barriers. Just because the procreation phase passes does not mean that the others go too. People are not looking for sex alone, it's widely available now in our culture, with the discovery of willing partners easily facilitated by the internet and the belief that sex is merely a recreation. Don't get me wrong, people want sex, but what they're seeking is the intimacy that comes from sex--sex is the means, not the end. The sexual revolution is a double-illusion. What people wanted was intimacy, not sex, and the breakdown of the family unit so widely quoted above is a terrible by-product of the 'me generation(s)' and the 'if it feels good--do it' approach to life. Unfortunately, the 'feels good' aspect of that approach rarely looks beyone the next few minutes, days, or weeks. Something that 'feels good' today can feel very bad in the days to come--such as the breakdown of a family. And for those above who think that 'family' can exist equally in any form, that it doesn't matter if your parents stay together, or if your children have a mother and father who stay together, you have arrived at the nirvana of narcissim--it's all about 'me', which exists in a perfect vacuum. It goes hand-in-hand with those who think some have a 'religious' viewpoint on this. The 'it's all about me' perspective is every bit a religion, it's just a religion where you and your satisfaction are the idol worshipped at the center of it all.
  36. Brad MacBeth from Kelowna, BC, Canada writes: On another point, why don't my paragraph breaks show in my posting? It looks like one big paragraph.
  37. Brad MacBeth from Kelowna, BC, Canada writes: Somthing else for us all to consider, why is Syed's explanation of an Islamic perspective (thank-you Syed) greeeted with thoughtful debate, when a similar explanation of a biblical Christian perspective would surely be met with derision?

    Of course Syed's perspective does not speak for all of Islam (historically or presently), but it does represent one aspect of Islam.
  38. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Brad MacBeth: Greetings

    Many thanks for your supportive comments.

    I would love someone pick up the flag for Christianity.

    I always regret that the nation of Israel abandoned Moses, and Christians have abandoned Jesus, and Muslims abandoned Mohammed.

    Christians are not in a mood to come back to Christianity (because objective conditions are not favorable as we are moving away from agrarian era).

    But Muslims, after 14 centuries of ignorance (because objective conditions were not as favorable around the world as they were in Mohammedan Arabia) are going back to Mohammed and the Koran because the world economy is turning to Trade. Islam of Mohammed is the religion of this era.

    The Rights that Mohammed gave women will become commoneplace. They are NOW being demanded by Muslim women.

    Globalization is good for Islam. Not only Muslim women, but ALL women worldwide will demand the Rights I listed. Then, sexual scene would be much rosier. Have patience.

    Peace.
  39. carol c from Canada writes: 'Therefore same-sex purposeless sex is increasing in the Hellenized West just as it did in Athens. '

    In my experience homosexuality in societies with separation of the sexes/strong enforcing of gender roles is much higher. This is a very logical happening, when there's no heterosexual outlet for sexuality a homosexual one becomes more attractive. It goes along with Kinsey's ideal of a scale of sexuality.

    One gay arab man of my acquaintance said that in receiving and giving oral sex to men in the middle east, it was seen by the participants as men helping each other out.
  40. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Brad MacBeth

    I think there is a flag in G&M logic that if the post exceeds 1000 words, the line breaks go out the window.

    I have learnt to limit my posts to 1000 words and it has helped me. Try it.

    Best wishes.
  41. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    carol c

    You may be right. There is male perversion in Arab Muslims countries. However, it is not condoned by the society.

    Arab women are not aware of their Rights under Islam. Historical ignorance has allowed them to be subjugated. The men are equally ignorant.

    However, education is bringing them closer to true Islam.

    Because Islam of Jesus was for the Agrarian era and Islam of Mohammed for the Trade Era, there is a tendency of Christians to leave the faith when they acquire education, and for Muslims to come closer to their faith when they educate. That is why churches are emptier today than 50 years ago, and mosques are fuller.

    There are sectarian differences. Sunni Islam (Arabs except Iraq and Lebanon where Shia are majority) has taken Koranic Rights away from women.

    Shia women enjoy greater property and sexual rights, including Right to offer themselves in marriage for a fixed period and under conditions she stipulates as Mohammed had decreed.
  42. Jim Murray from Saint Paul, United States writes: Syed Abbas, would you comment on female circumcision?
  43. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Jim Murray: Greetings.

    Female circumcision is anti-Islamic. There is no requirement for it in the Koran. It was not practiced in the times of Mohammed.

    I do not have the facts to describe why this dastardly practiced entered into African Islam (some 15% of Muslims). It is not practiced anywhere else. I do not even know what purpose, if any, it serves.

    Muslim male circumcision is a ritual honoring Abraham. It is a requirement to be a Muslim.
  44. Jim Smith from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: Nature wants survival, growth, and evolution, and made sex an enjoyable activity. First, it is a woman's call in Islam, not a man's. Wives are legally exempt from household duties. Wives are legally exempt from child rearing. Wives can legally demand satisfaction in bed. Wives keep the income they earn - security First, Abbas points out that there is a sexual revolution going on in the Islamic world. Yet he also says that these womens' rights, upon which his "revolution" is based have, apparently, existed for a long time. The obvious answer is that the rights are meaningless, because they are unenforced or trumped by the other, superior male rights. Second, Abbas attempts to point out that the West is turning to trade while the Islamic world is turning to religion. False. The massive recent commitment to trade and economic diversification in Saudi Arabia is but one example of the contrary. Also, Abbas ignores the obvious fact that the "rights" of women he alludes to require very high household income in order to be meaningful, especially in Islamic socities where women generally do not work. For example, if a woman is exempt from childrearing, then the man has to do it, but he also has to work. If she can legally demand sex, she can get money from her husband in compensation, but she cannot go elsewhere for sex. If it is a woman's call, the man is deprived of his rights, which is no better than depriving a woman of hers. Where there is no money, these "rights" to a good screw and lazy days mean nothing. Finally, Abbas fails to reconcile his view of ever expanding procreative Islamic sex with the reality of scarce and declining resources. Abbas' underdeveloped critical faculty is telling. The absolute superiority of education, the work ethic, commitment to due process and rights, the brutally competitive economic system and the mental discipline of the West is presently unmatched.
  45. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Jim Smith

    Islam of Mohammed was conceived in trading microcosm of Arabia. The system failed to rise up to potential in agrarian world. Now the globe is similar to that in 7th century Arabia and hence the renaissance of Islam, similar to Hellenic renaissance of Europe when conditions became Athenian.

    Today, Muslim women are asserting their Rights that had become dormant.

    Did I say that West is turning to trade and Islam to religion, or the world is turning to trade and Muslims to their trade based religion.

    Islamic Rights do not require a high income. Islamic socio-economic is frugal. Today, a Westerner requires 30-50 times the resource to go from cradle to grave, and if you take out the pill-poppying years out of lifespan, he/she is living shorter than a Muslim. West is wasteful while Islam is frugal.

    For future of West: James Howard Kunstler

    The Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline 1993
    Johnny Appleseed 1995
    Maggie Darling: A Modern Romance - 2004
  46. talk to the hand from Canada writes: John Williams, you're really, really weird.

    creeepy.
  47. L Harder from Canada writes: I think there is little evidence of very many Muslim women claiming any rights. I'm not sure why rights regarding marriage have relevance when marriage is becoming obsolete.

    There is nothing enshrined in the western world about who proposes what. Any decent study of sexual behavior (human and other animals) indicate both sexes make their decisions and signal what their intentions are. At any rate it is also irrelevant who decides as the outcome in the Muslim world is supposed to lead to obsolete marriage where sex will succumb (for most) to the pressures of life and time.
  48. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: If you don't like the "requirements" of your religion, there really is no problem: Just pick another religion. Or start your own.

    After all, that's what Mohammad and countless Christians did.
  49. The Bubble from Canada writes: When my wife and I were splitting we started into S&M
    she Slept while I Masturbated.
  50. David Simon from Canada writes: If there's any good source on sexlessness it has to be the Globe and Mail.
  51. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    L Harder:

    Women's Rights as guaranteed by Koran and Mohammed are increasingly being enshrined in most legislations in Islamic countries.

    You are right. Women are still not demanding these Rights in every case. However, the frequency is rising. Remember, Islamic renaissance in only a 100 years old.

    Marriage is indeed becoming irrelevant in the West. However, Muslim population is exploding. Marriage is alive and well.

    It does matter who has the legal right to propose. It has serious socio-economic implications.

    In the West the man proposes, and sometimes a woman's no is not taken as no. In Islam only the woman has the right to propose, so this does not arise.

    In Islam, since it is the exclusice Right of woman to make the marriage offer to the man she has chosen, she does not have to diaplay herself to everyone. Hence the social basis of the Hijab. In the West, since a woman is chosen, she must bare herself to increase her chances to be chosen. Logical?

  52. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: TEACH YOUR CHILDREN WELL

    Give me! Give me! Never gets!

    Don't you know your manners Yet?
  53. nadine langlois from Gatineau, Canada writes: First of all...so you understand where I am coming from, I believe in spirituality. I go to church every sunday, but more importantly, I completely love God (Jesus). In other words...I have a relationship with him (we communicate through prayer) i see that many of you blame religion and rules...well, to get that out of the way...I don't agree with religion...or having set rules. I believe in believing and loving ....and living for what you love because you want to. anyways...I am young and married now for four years. I have two babies. when I made a commitment to become married....I made a choice and a commitment to love. I don't recall that in my vows I promised to always have passion and desire. And I knew that I was chosing to love despite how I may feel or not feel one day in the future towards my husband. Sex is a need for some...and for others I suppose it is not. Just as quality time may be a need to one...but perhaps not the other. So I believe that since sex doesn't hurt, and since usually it can feel good.... just as we made a commitment to love the day we got married....we should also chose to love by fullfilling the needs of our partner. (whatever that need may be, including sex) by the way, we have never had cable or satellite tv since we lived together and I truly honestly believe that that has helped us not become influenced with what everyone else tries to portray sex as.
  54. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: What about satisfying the other person? I'm not saying you can have fulfilling sex just by satisfying someone else. But why not, at least once in awhile, agree to sex just for the sole purpose of satisfying the other person. If you're a man and you can't get it up, try oral. Or use a toy, or your hands to stimulate her. If you're a woman and you can't get wet, use some lube. But maybe, just maybe, if you focus on pleasing the other person, you might just find that you end up enjoying it yourself. Or is that altogether too much to expect in our narcissistic "me first" world? Perhaps that is the problem. Perhaps all these sexless men and women are too busy thinking "I just don't feel attracted to him/her anymore" and "I just don't feel like it" and "I I I I ME ME ME ME" and that is why sex became such a drag for both of them in the first place.
  55. navi avos from hood river, United States writes: dear syed,
    if you are married, i would like to hear what your wife has to say about this ( she could write under another name). if you are not married, i would be interested to know what your mother has to say (uncensored) on this topic.
    for that matter, i would welcome an opinion from any woman in your community (there don't seem to be to be many writing). as i mentioned earlier, the posturing and preaching is a bit much.
  56. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    navi avos

    We practice what we preach.

    Your talk of women's rights is simply a ruse to make them work to live off them (if you are a male).

    No wonder they are not having kids, and no wonder the state of sex is abysmal as described so well in this article.
  57. Pete A from Canada writes: So Syed, you're saying if the woman chooses not to do the housework or childcare, the man will have to do it? Or to hire someone to do it?
    What if she doesn't want to work too? Not that she can progress much in work in all likelihood, given the gender discrimination that's still alive and well in many cultures.
  58. L Harder from Canada writes: Syed:

    Marriage proposals is in theory completely flexible as it should be in the West. Why make a rule when it isn't necessary? In reality both make decisions and the hibab means making decisions without some information. The irrelevancy of marriage is due partially to the lack of need in the west. In the past marriage was essential for economic and social survival. That is changing. It wasn't that marriage wasn't a nasty institution in the past. Just that people depended on it. Perhaps in the Islamic world, the potentially nasty institution is still necessary and therefore thriving. The large number of children can be attributed to the lack of education on the part of women and their lack of choice. Eventually this will lead to a struggle for resources, conflict and the degradation of the environment as has happened many times in the fertile crescent. Education and choice universally leads to less children on average. So I'm confused Syed. Are you proposing enslavement to the institution of marriage, keeping women uneducated, eliminating the input of men on one hand, but placing it in the hands of uneducated women on the other (now this is a contradiction), who at the same time are restricted in what they can do because of the clothing restrictions?

    No it doesn't sound logical to me at all. Rather oppressive.

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