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Small change for tighter times

STEVEN CHASE

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 7:39 AM EDT 27/02/08

Thriftiest federal budget since Ottawa balanced its books 11 years ago includes new tax shelter and sprinkling of economic aid; Dion vows not to vote it down ...Read the full article

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  1. Blissed Old Man from white Rock, Canada writes: A Paul Martin Jr. budget with a very unique feature, the tax free savings account, that sends a very important message .... save.

    Over the days to come, the implications of self-directed investing and self-reliance for the soon to retire, future home-owners, families building a contingency fund ...etc. will become a significant direction change for Canada away from reliance upon government programs resulting from historical tax and spend policies.
  2. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Personal responsiblity.

    Anathema to the social progresive and it's obsession with the Nanny State.

    Welcome to the early 21st century, leftist.

    How do you like it so far?
  3. Fourat J. from Mississauga, Canada writes: Glad to see the knives being sharpened at the liberal blogsphere, just kidding, but at least they are being more critical of DION for a change.
  4. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Dion, Dion.

    If he won't do it..
    Dion can't.

    Yay!
    Dion!

    Rattle pom-poms!!!
  5. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:
    What's this I hear about running a deficit?

    Whatevvvvver...
  6. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Michael Sharp:-- Michael, there is absolutely nothing wrong with measures designed to encourage Canadians to save and to assume more responsibility for their retirement. Canadians aren't saving, and that's not a good thing. I blame a culture that sees no reason to delay gratification. Nevertheless, what is the point of having a nation if there are not some advantages to be had from collective arrangements: risk sharing, for one. If a government wishes to completely sell out its people and leave them in some sort of Darwinian state, what is the point of having a democracy, a flag, an anthem - because what, in reality, would they represent? I sometimes suspect that those who do the most crowing about 'personal responsibility' are really just trying to justify in their own minds the persistence of not just social class, which is likely inevitable, but the widening gap between rich and poor.
  7. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    diane marie...

    An acceptance or personal responsiblity also implies an awareness of the gap between rich and poor.

    The Nanny State can not close that gap.

    Community can.
  8. King Fisher from Canada writes:
    Looks like a SCTV photo, and there is a Flaherty in it too,,,hmmm
  9. Sean Kelly from Guelph, Canada writes: Michael Sharp ...

    'An acceptance or personal responsiblity also implies an awareness of the gap between rich and poor.'

    Achieving personal fiscal responsibility is completely independent of helping the poor.

    I'm not saying that prosperous people don't help the poor (of course they do) ... I'm just saying that your argument lacks logic.

    Where the leftists fail is in victimizing everyone ... whereas their core belief in a social safety net is not necessarily a bad thing.

    ... and when its all said and done, your ideal of 'community pulling together' IS a form of socialism, whether you'll admit it or not.
  10. martha stewart from Canada writes: 'the widening gap between rich and poor' is also inevitable as a result of globalization and world overpopulation. Supply and demand for labour assures that, and a corresponding shrinkage in the middle class of the developed world as the middle classes grow in the developing world.

    We sure did have it great while it lasted. It will still be great in Canada compared to the rest of the world. Just not so great for so many. I'd rather be poor in the Canadian country than rich in Beijing.

    The budget - very conservative and very appropriate for the times.
  11. Mahatma Gandhi from Calgary, Canada writes: Personal responsibility my left foot. How about some government responsibility? Like, stop wasting my tax dollars on Hamid Karzai's luxury retirement fund, and give me real services.
  12. martha stewart from Canada writes: King Fisher writes: 'Looks like a SCTV photo, and there is a Flaherty in it too,,,hmmm '

    Hmmm is right. But now that you've planted the SCTV idea on it, Flaherty does sort of look like a compressed Count Floyd.
  13. martha stewart from Canada writes: Sean Kelly from Guelph - All primate groups are 'socialist' ... things start breaking down when the 'group' gets too large.

    Words can mean many things.
  14. Sean Kelly from Guelph, Canada writes: martha stewart:

    Good comment on the versatility of words; point taken.

    However ...

    The reality is that we do live in a large 'group' - Canada is currently a federation, like it or not - and not a Canada-wide network of small, loosely affiliated, grassroots oriented, semi-anarchist communities as Michael Sharp may envision with his 'community' ideal (haha no offense meant if I'm putting words in your mouth Mike.)

    There are both benefits and detractions to being a part of a federation. One of the benefits is being able to pool our funds, as a nationwide community, to help the poor (and of course there have been failures on this front, but the successes have been more numerous.)
  15. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Well, I sure hope Flaherty isn't so close to deficit that Harper can use that as an excuse to delay or kill the Mulroney-Schreiber Public Inquiry... Imagine the headlines: Harper says Mulroney Too Costly for Canada.

    Sean Kelly: calling out Michael Sharpe on his socialism was pretty darn funny. First time I've seem him speechless in quite some while. Wonder what he's cooking up as a rebuttal.
  16. Sean Kelly from Guelph, Canada writes: Haha I'm glad you approve, Mrs. Whiggins.

    Who knew that commenting on a newspaper website could be so fun? No wonder the partisan trolls get such a kick out of it ...

    At the very least, it makes for a quick stress-relieving distraction while I cram for the quantitative genetics midterm that I'm writing tomorrow.

    Anyhow ... I'm out for the night ... cheers to all you Fiberals, CONservatives, Bloc Heads, Double Dippers, and Green (Smokers) out there, you make this country ... er, something.
  17. Bert Russell Paradox, BC from Canada writes:
    Ms Whiggins: I dont see Mike in rebuttal maybe a little smug! Trouble with the Liberal supporters ... they dont know which way to jump (left or right) to support Dion - he seems to be eating his words as he talks or is the video out of sinc with audio?
  18. George S from Toronto, Canada writes: I wish that Mr. Dion would oppose this budget on the fact that the federal government has only allocated $500 M for public transit. That is $500 M for across the country- that is a joke. I know it is wise to chip away at the deficit but it is also wise to invest in infrastructure that will help maintain Canada's competiveness. I think the feds should invest heavily in public transit while we have the funds- not just for the largest cities of T.O., Montreal and Vancouver but all large urban areas. This type of investment would help Canada remain competitive by allowing workers to commute to work WHEN fuel prices rise to European levels. Investment in Public Transit infrastructure would be like investing in our future generations.

    Flaherty's legacy could have been something great had he done this for Canada, our environment and our future post-oil economy.
  19. Rachel M. from Money tree, not money pit, Canada writes: A very responsible budget, emphasizing deficit cutting and creating a personal responsbility vehicle.

    The special interest will always ask for money. Some reasonable, others not. The flexibility of the government to address is very much hinge on how much IOU it carries. A low national debt creates that flexibility.

    Those clamoring for more spending is better served by the government of avoiding the big interest on the debt. Use the interest reduction to fund the prioritized programs, in a limited and responsible way.

    Money does not grow on trees, may be it will grow out of the roots that our government is now nuturing.
  20. Rachel M. from Lead us onto greener pastures, Canada writes: Very glad to hear Mr. Dion will not push for an election. Whether its internal polling or being more responsible really does not matter.

    What matter is now we will not spend prematurely $350 million for an election in quick consecutive minority governments, just to likely create status quo.

    The Tory is doing a good job, proving how a minority govt can work yet achieving results like a majority govt.

    The Liberals is perhaps turning the ship. It will need time to rebuild itself and prove how it should be given serious respect again in the not too distance future.

    For the BQ, NDP, they will not form the government, so it is easy to complain when they dont have to balance and prioritize, like us who manage our own household budget.
  21. Paul F. from AB, Canada writes: The savings plan is a nice try, except if I HAD extra cashflow it would be going into my kids' RESP, which is currently woefully underfunded.

    No money for a savings plan. Apparently I have to pay my municipality 10% more in property taxes than I did last year.

    The Feds give some, the Muni's take it and more.
  22. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes: TFSA... wow... by the time the banks get thru giving it that most minimal of interest... and have taken their fees for the privilege of telling you how money they see in the account... you would be far better off to have placed the money under a mattress away from any other prying eyes. unless of course you're an absolute whiz at the horse races and/or other forms of gambling such as the equity markets.

    TFSA... wow... you still have to pay the income tax on the money you threw away into that scheme.

    RRSP's will still prove to be and still are much much better ...
  23. Vern McPherson from writes: How many families of 3 or 4 with an income around 50 grand living in cities, living anywhere for that matter, .... have a sawbuck left over let alone $5000.00 ? They are likely leveraging 5 to 10 grand in consumer debt in order to keep their heads above water .............
    If their kids are over 6 years old they miss the 200 a month baby bonus.

    Not that I want to spoil the little family with inordinate public largesse but who are the real benefactors of the 5 grand tax free savings ?
  24. Alistair McLaughlin from Ottawa, Canada writes: Stude Ham, you can invest in anything you want withing a TFSA. YOu can put it in mutual funds or individual stocks and earn dividends and capital gains; you're not just stuck with interest-earning assets. It's just like an RRSP, except you put after-tax dollars in it, and then earn tax-free income. It's a damn good deal actually.
  25. NL_Expatriate www.nlfirst.ca from Canada writes: Stephen Harper the Girly man of CONfederation said, 'There is no greater fraud than a promise not kept!'
    http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2007/exec/promisebrochure.pdf
    http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2006/exec/01harper.pdf
    ABC; Anything But Conservative! Even the BLOC!
  26. Wayne Walker from Canada writes: Does anyone else think this savings plan is more complicated than necessary? A few years back we had a $1000 investment tax credit which was really easy to administer. There was no need to create separate accounts with separate reporting and forms. This new plan is better for higher income taxpayers because the $1000 exemption only provided credits at the lowest tax rate whereas this plan takes the income off the top (by leaving it out). It is also more generous as it is not limited to $1000. A married couple who transfer $10,000 of investments into this plan each year can be earning a fair amount of exempt income in 5 or 10 years time. As over 50% of investment income is reported by taxpayers over age 65 this will be great for retired people, especially those dealing with OAS or GIS clawbacks. Not sure what it will do for younger families who cannot save now. In any case, they could have achieved the same result by simply allowing a deduction from income of some amount, probably phased in over a period of years to shadow the proposed $5000 annual addition to the account.
  27. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Just imagine that! No spring election. Who would have thought it (that is to say, other than the Westport Oracle)?

    Perhaps the media experts and the media driven numbskulls will now pay attention. One more time: No election until October 2009. The Harper government is firmly entrenched, with a de facto majority and has an treasury the other parties can only dream of. They have a major appeal for that to grow like Topsey, while the LPC wallows in ever increasing, leaderless disarray on the verge of national political obscurity.

    Life is good.
  28. Vern McPherson from writes: pinkhurst if you think this budget would ever be brought forward with the COns in a majority position tehn you are thicker than the thickest post.

    Who do you think you are talking to, school children ?
  29. Bill M from Canada writes: George S from Toronto, Canada writes: I wish that Mr. Dion would oppose this budget on the fact that the federal government has only allocated $500 M for public transit. That is $500 M for across the country- that is a joke. I know it is wise to chip away at the deficit but it is also wise to invest in infrastructure that will help maintain Canada's competiveness.

    Investing in infrastructure is great, as long as that is what it's used for. The city of Burlington, one of the criers for one cent of the GST, is using 'infrastructure' money towards building a $40 million theatre. This is the same city that shuts down transit completly on stat holidays. Too bad if you have to work on a stat and rely on transit to get there.
  30. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: What are the bets that the current mob of anonymous contributors will disappear into the woodwork and come up with a new batch of silly names? That goes to root cause of people who haven't got the guts to identify themselves.

    I see McFartson has had something to say. No doubt more of his misguided wisdom. I'll wait to see how long it takes for him to be shot down in the usual manner.
  31. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: I wonder what happened to the much heralded poison pill that was to be included in the budget in order to force the fall of the government. You don't suppose that was just another figment of the media and opposition imaginations do you? I do.
  32. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    'Parcimoniuos Budget?' Yesterday, the preferred word was 'stingy'......Oh, that's right, one in the same meaning.

    A somewhat confusing and rather obviously biased article, as the writer omits the huge tax slashes of last fall....and questionable GST cutts-but tax cuts nonetheless.

    Furthermore, he writes the following:

    ' and represents a deliberate decision by the Tories to restrain spending rather than break open the kitty to meet a cacophony of demands for help as Canada's economy slows.
    For example, the Tories could have spent a budget surplus that's swelled to $10.2-billion for the fiscal year ending March 31, but instead announced they'll use all of it to pay down federal debt.' To a large extent, the Tories are cash-starved by design.

    'Cash starved' by design? If reducing debt by $10 Billion, and announcing all of those spending proposals is 'cash-starved by design' bring on more of these budgets!

    It is obvious the writer is taking his ques from the LPC, who would prefer to spend than pay down the debt. How 'Liberal!'

    The Dion plan was a waffling plan of more social spending and less paying down the debt-another weak decision.
  33. Dr Demento from Canada writes: I applaud the investment of $300 million into clean, green nuclear power.
  34. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Vern McPherson from writes: pinkhurst if you think this budget would ever be brought forward with the COns in a majority position tehn you are thicker than the thickest post..

    Morning VERNIE: Greetings from the rainy Maritimes, but plus 7 and sun this PM.

    Come now VERNIE, no need to attack the Westport Oracle . He was the only person on these boards with a consistent 'no election' call as far back as last year! Perhaps he should be a Duffy guest.

    You state this would not have been a Conservative budget in a majority situation. Ok then, what does your cystal ball say it would have been? I am curious as to your ideas and thought pattern on this one. Nuclear submarines and Aircraft carriers? New Private prisons to invoke the death penalty (for smoking maijuana)? The abolition of capital gains and corporate taxes?

    VERNIE: The fear mongering is an old ploy that did not work. I would much prefer if the LPC would try and define themselves-tell us what they stand for-take positions on serious issues, instead of consistently sitting on their hands and waiting, and HOPING for, the fall-out of the American economy.

    How sad! No programs-no ideas-no positions....
  35. Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes: 'pinkhurst if you think this budget would ever be brought forward with the COns in a majority position tehn you are thicker than the thickest post' ******************************************************* Joanne De Laurentiis, Investment Funds Institute of Canada president “The mutual fund industry has long taken the stand that the federal government should help Canadians save for themselves and be less reliant on government programs in the years ahead. The [Tax-Free Savings Account] takes Canadians down that road.”*********************Nancy Hughes Anthony, Canadian Bankers Association president “We think this budget is probably about right for the times, it's a realistic and careful kind of budget. I tend to look at this budget in tandem with the economic statement where, frankly, there was more tax relief than we'd anticipated.” Malvin Spooner, Mavrix Fund Management Inc. chief executive The Tax-Free Savings Account “allows Canadians to save and accumulate a meaningful amount of money. Ultimately, the capital that will be available will certainly do good things for the economy.” Brendan Caldwell, chief executive officer, Caldwell Securities Ltd. The Tax-Free Savings Account “encourages people to put money aside who may not put money aside otherwise. Everyone should — even if its $50 a month — because it makes a huge difference over time.” Richard Monk, Chair, Certified Management Accountants of Canada “Overall, this is a positive budget addressing a number of economic challenges Canadians face today. What is missing are a number of measures which require almost no hard cash investments, yet can provide considerable assistance to small and medium-sized businesses (SMEs) in boosting productivity.” Brian Hahn, Chairman, Calgary Chamber of Commerce “We give the federal government credit for limiting spending increases.” Gawd, it must be hard being a bitter Liberal these days!!!!
  36. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Yet to come: A redfaced, girlie hand waving comment from Taliban Jack. I wonder if it has occurred to him how much further into the wilderness all of this activity has placed him and his perpetually scowling right hand man? Hello Jack, are you there?
  37. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: I like the savings plan. Given the choice I would put more in the plan then in a RSP. Even if you could only get say 4% on your money it is 4% not 4% minus 2.2% for taxes. The advantage of the interest bearing accounts is everyone will not be selling equities when they retire. Figure what happens to the market when that happens.

    I am at the point where I have to start collapsing my RSP because my income is never going to be lower. I will pay a 20% withholding tax when I take it out. I have the option of dealing with it like tax losses sell in Dec. so the gov't only holds the tax 3 or 4 months. In the meantime I will use investment income to get to Dec, and the RSP withdrawl will just go to my investment account to make up for what I removed.

    I suggested this to Mr. Martin when he was finance minister. It just makes more sense to take out tax paid money due to the easier planning. The various gov'ts will make out like bandits when I die, 'till then they have to fight me for it.
  38. Vern McPherson from writes: Pinkhurst it would take a tad more than your infantile machinations and eternal misery in life to discourage me - let alone refute one iota of what I say here.
  39. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Vern You are a legend in your own mind.
  40. mike sty - from Canada writes:

    Why did Flaherty steal 35 Billion dollars from Canadian seniors???

    Flaherty's tax free savings plan?????

    Conservative tax haven.

    Modern day Robin-Hood...

    Steal from the poor ......Give to the rich
  41. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: As anticipated, McFartson is reaping his usual harvest of rebuke. What a sad case that guy is. Masochist comes to mind.
  42. Vern McPherson from writes: Hello carriere. Minus 27 in the big smoke this AM (windchill included). A few points: 1/ On the issue of what the libs platform is or will be........... we all know that their platform was since 93 when they took over the disaster that was Canada's finances at that time. In a painful yet remarkable turnaround we have what we have today, the COns still sailing on the libs strong economic breezes - and created lib surplusses. The libs will announce a program and a platform at the appropriate time. To do so now would not be good political form carrierre - I think you can see that. We are in a minority govt situation and Parliament has passed legislation that fixes election dates (we need to respect that), although the little oracle has done everything in his power to humiliate the libs in an effort to prod them into premature dissolution. I believe stevie thinks he can continue to get away with that stuff because he relies on Dion's steadfastness, integrity and good sense not to bring down the govt in advance of necessary conditions. carrierre if you aren't noticing it, this budget is a comprimise, not a pure COns effort. So ? Who is comprimising and who really backed off on our hurtful Afgan issue ? 2/ On the issue of programs and ideas, the COns budget carries forward Lib ideas and programs from the previous 13 years. That is as plain as the nose on yer face carrierre. On some they pay lip service. On others they dwell lightly and on still others they have absorbed fully and ran with. On the assistance to the auto manufacturing industry, so important to (vote rich) Ontario they listened to Dalton and they blinked ever so little but they backed off. 3/ It appears the righty viewpoint in this country is as it always been carrierre. I cite my original and continuing position that Canada is a centrist a little left- and a little right from time to time. What ever happened to all the neo-nonsense we heard of when this reform bunch first came to town ?
  43. Vern McPherson from writes: Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: As anticipated, McFartson is reaping his usual harvest of rebuke. What a sad case that guy is. Masochist comes to mind.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    gerrie why not entertain us with a little dawdle form the old days when you kicked the union's a $$ and made straight the way for the faithful ...

    Why do you never cite links or facts here ? Why is it always your opinion made up after you get your directions form head office ?

    Why not take the lead for once instead of sniping from the sidelines and contributing little other than the usual 'I love harper and here are my pompoms' ?
  44. Vern McPherson from writes: Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Vern You are a legend in your own mind.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    just grow up prettyboy and refute anything I say here. Present your facts and analysis and then we'll judge them.
  45. Vern McPherson from writes: Fact is this budget is a partially moderalely liberal approach with the numbers and the initiatives altered to save COns face ................. sort of a tacidly screened smoky curtin intended to attract big city and Ontario voters the COns have CRAPped on and attacked, in Ontario's case, for so long.

    Why just last week the COns finance minister stated assistance to the auto industry was a non-starter. Govts ought not pick winners and losers. LOL !!! All the deadheaded righties here were echoing the words of the oracle LMAO !!!

    COns = losers. and liars ............
  46. Vern McPherson from writes: $5 grand tax shelter ? LOL !!!! For whom ?

    Consumer spending was just the centre point of the COns' GST cuts.

    Now they encourage less spending ?

    Where are we going with this ? In circles ?
  47. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: PM Harper is an ecomonist! He is all so one of the Greatest Minds that have ever lived. This Budget proves it!

    Thank You !PM Harper for putting money back in our pockets and not taking it!

    You are the first true leader this nation has ever had and you have started a Conservative that will last well into all time! Our Great Grand children will live under what you have created!
  48. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Vern McPherson: While I tip my hat to Paul Martin in bringing about budget reform, you well know the cuts and transfer downloads are still being felt today.We can argue forever, yet I know you realize this.

    As for the Liberals complaining about the budget being 'their ideas,' i also chuckle as now the shoe is on the other foot. The PC's complained about this forever--but if it is good for Canada, then why not?

    VERNIE, you write, ' I cite my original and continuing position that Canada is a centrist a little left- and a little right from time to time. What ever happened to all the neo-nonsense we heard of when this reform bunch first came to town ?'

    These are truly confusing political times. The 'right' CPC spends record amounts and want desperately to move to the center. Dion backs a right leaning conservative war motion......I agree with you-whomever will grasp the middle ground-whomever will leave that perception with the voter, will be in power for a long time.

    Dion and the LPC need to define themselves! Who are they in 2008? He had an option to do so concerning Afghanistan, but folded. This could have been a solid LPC issue for an election.
  49. Steve D from Canada writes: According to the story: 'Costing only $385-million a year by 2012-13, this account is a far cheaper alternative for the cash-trapped Tories than their abandoned capital gains pledge'

    How is it abandoned? Because it hasn't shown up in the first two years of a minority government? Talk to me about abandoned when Oct 09 comes and there is still nothing on it. Amazing the incredibly higher standards the G&M has for the Conservatives on their promises than the Liberals on theirs.

    Wayne Walker from Canada writes: '... In any case, they could have achieved the same result by simply allowing a deduction from income of some amount, probably phased in over a period of years to shadow the proposed $5000 annual addition to the account.'

    How would that encourage saving and thus investment? That would encourage spending just as much or more and the GST cuts were to address this. Not the same result at all.
  50. Count Floyd from Winnipeg, Canada writes:
    Hey kids! Count Floyd here. I resent the implication that the minister of finance and the good old count look alike.

    Sort of like saying the back end of the donkey (minister of finance) looks like the front end.

    Hey Kids! Pamela Anderson is getting a divorce. Go figure.
  51. D K from Canada writes: ' Vern McPherson from writes: $5 grand tax shelter ? LOL !!!! For whom ?

    Consumer spending was just the centre point of the COns' GST cuts.

    Now they encourage less spending ?

    Where are we going with this ? In circles ?'

    How about giving Canadians more options? Not difficult to figure out
  52. Steve D from Canada writes: Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: 'Just imagine that! No spring election. Who would have thought it (that is to say, other than the Westport Oracle)?'

    Since you asked. I've been saying it consistently also for the same reason, not only here but screaming it at Bob Fife and Craig Whatisface on Question Period every 6 weeks. I don't credit it to an ability to see into the future, but on intelligent rational analysis and faith in the gutlessness of the opposition.

    I am concerned about my other prediction that Mr. Dion will not be Liberal leader when the next election comes in Oct 09. Do you think he will make it?
  53. Steve D from Canada writes: Vern writes: 'On the issue of programs and ideas, the COns budget carries forward Lib ideas and programs from the previous 13 years. That is as plain as the nose on yer face carrierre. On some they pay lip service. On others they dwell lightly and on still others they have absorbed fully and ran with. On the assistance to the auto manufacturing industry, so important to (vote rich) Ontario they listened to Dalton and they blinked ever so little but they backed off. '

    Same as usual the Liberals put everything plus the kitchen sink (currently to the tune of 100 B in extra spending) into their list of 'top priorities' so a few good ideas might have actually gotten in there. The trick is to find the good ones among all the stupid ones.

    Re: auto industry assistance. This isn't a cheque to a shuttered ford plant but industry wide programs in most cases to manufacturers of all types where companies who know what to do with the money get to use it. Have you noticed when people like McGuinty start picking winners and losers they always pick the losers?
  54. William Borlase from Canada writes: Isn't it ironic that there are several posts complaining that the Conservatives have and are 'stealing' Liberal ideas and programs etc. etc. I remember the Liberals doing this constantly during their long terms in office. It seems to me that it always depends on 'whose ox is being gored'. I also see where the supposed greener car rebate program is being phased out. Good. It was a lame brained program to begin with and even if it was their own dumb idea, the Conservatives have ended it.
  55. Vern McPherson from writes: carrierrre the COns will get courageous (or arrogant which in truth stevie has refrained form in terms of this budget anyway), one of these days. At that time the libs will pounce. Alternatively stevie will remain passive and attentive to polls and voters wishes. Don't forget WE the voters have the hammer and we are always correct in a democracy. Right or left -- right or wrong LOL !! Someone said this budget is a mile wide and an inch thick. That's a pretty good description in my mind. But no election over this and that is the correct decision at this time. I certainly do not agree with all this debt paying stuff as the absolute priority. I do not believe we are a little family with a mortgage that absolutely must pay off. The government of Canada is not a little cottage in the country with a mortgage. I believe we ought to be making inroads in the debt on a slower basis while we make far more serious and agressive investments in the future and that means restructuring things to advantage cities directly (making the gas tax permanent is a decidedly liberal plan), since they are the economic generators. We need a realistic environment program and I like the approach that says it can be an opportunity rather than a sinkhole as the fearful COns monger. And the silly 5 grand tax shelter benefits only high income taxpayers. That money would have a far greater impact on post secondary for example or income additions to seniors receiving the supplement. We have howlers here by the minute on the issue of re-distribution of income. Well when we re-distribute taxpayers' money in order to own the best hi-tech military gear available, ..... not one senior collecting the supplement or one homeless person benefits from that. As always the devil is in the details so we will need to wait for the actual ligislation on this budget and see what the Cons attempt to sneak thru, omnibus style...................... Lets be cautious on the details......
  56. D K from Canada writes: ' Vern McPherson from writes:.......
    And the silly 5 grand tax shelter benefits only high income taxpayers....... blah blah'

    Typical arrogance.
    Libbies always full of hot air. I must be 'high income' because I am looking forward to this tax free vehicle. So would most Canadians as this is more flexible than an RRSP. They can earn tax free on their savings, and then spend it on whatever they deem worthwhile. Plus the unused limit rolls over yearly. Win win for everyone but the Liberals. Thanks, but I don't want to be taxed anymore.
  57. Vern McPherson from writes: Steve D from Canada writes:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Steve the COns backed off. If they ever EVER wished another favorable vote in Ontario the HAD to back off that silliness of picking winners/losers. It's not a bailout or about winners and losers. It's partnering somethng all manufacturers seek when they make investments and that is the real world.

    You obviously are not in tune with the truth when you diss assistance to the vitaly important manufacturing industry. Are you aware of how imortant it is in Canada and in Ontario and in Windsor ? ?

    That shuttered engine plant represents 800 direct high paying jobs and 3000 indirect jobs to a city that has been hit hard. The lousy 30 million in goodwill would be recouped in the first week. Is that good economic sense right now ?

    Or good ideology ?
  58. Mark H from Canada writes: Dion wouldn't budge if the house was on fire.
  59. The Oracle from Caiman Islands, Canada writes: More time for the CONS to fester in Canada's stomake untill Canadians barf them up and we are rid of them.
  60. Vern McPherson from writes: Bully for you and me dk.

    What about a little governance for those who could use a real helping hand. You want to continue tripping over them when you access and egress the fine shops on Bloor West ?

    I know most people including you could give a $hi! less for them but you must agree while we all debate and fight over our tax cuts and various clever plans their presence among us remains a national disgrace. Yes ?
  61. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Steve D: Pleased to hear from a fellow believer. It seems you also share my views regarding Fife, Oliver and CTV Question period. I can occasionally give some credit to Fife for his knack to come up with early news. My problem with him is not so much his reporting but his propensity to editorialise, often with a snear. Oliver, on the other hand has few, if any redeeming features in my book and Taber is a joke. I also agree with you that predicting what has happened is not a matter of seeing into the future. It is simply the ability to weed through media and opposition hype and having a hard look at reality. No, I do not think Dion will be involved in the next election. Not as leader anyway. Once he is dumped (and I'm not sure how that will happen) he may stick around as a sitting member. He is obstinate enough (or is it out of touch with reality) to do that. If it werent for that flaw in his character he would see the light, do the right thing and step down for the sake of the party. I'm guessing he is already under some pressure, from the inside, to do just that. It would be a little unsettling for the LPC but in the long run, not a lot worse than what they are presently going through. I don't really wish them a lot of success but I would like to see some form of meaningful opposition. In fact, my real preference would be for us to have a genuine two party system and I feel we are slowly approaching that situation..
  62. D K from Canada writes: ' The Oracle from Caiman Islands, Canada writes: More time for the CONS to fester in Canada's stomake untill Canadians barf them up and we are rid of them.'

    Wow, based on that post I would say more money should be invested in education, at the very least in literacy.
  63. Durward Saar from Canada writes: Great budget, the only dark spot is the intention to throw more tax dollars at a dead horse(auto paint by numbers manufacturing sector)
    Vital someone called it LOL, Forestry is vital, mining is vital, agriculture is vital and energy is vital, the auto sector is vital to it's employees and buzz Hargrove but just a drain on the rest of us.
  64. Jake The Snake from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes: How many families of 3 or 4 with an income around 50 grand living in cities, living anywhere for that matter, .... have a sawbuck left over let alone $5000.00 ? They are likely leveraging 5 to 10 grand in consumer debt in order to keep their heads above water ............. If their kids are over 6 years old they miss the 200 a month baby bonus. Not that I want to spoil the little family with inordinate public largesse but who are the real benefactors of the 5 grand tax free savings ? ======================= And that's the whole crux of these tax savings schemes. Whether it's some 5 thousand dollar tax free plan or RRSP increases on maximum allowable contributions. The vast majority fo Canadians live cheque to cheque. They package these things as a tax break to all Canadians when in reality only a small percentage get any significant benefit from it. Personally my family is in the top 10% income group in this country and I certainly don't have an extra 5 grand sitting around and the end of the day/month/year. I'm non partisan when it comes to genuine tax relief. Stop with these stupid credits and targetted reductions. Stop adding volumes to the tax code, get rid of this kind of garbage and lets have a simplified tax on income. It's more honest and transparent for Canadians. Any party not left of liberal that makes progress towards this kind of genuine tax relief will have my support.
  65. bob london from Canada writes: DK: The Oracle could be implying an obese person eating vegetables for the first time and confusing the feeling with being ill. Canada prefers fast food and junk food in their voting Liberal over the years. It could be confusing to the Oracle from Caiman? Islands.

    Suggestion Oracle, Google Caiman and see what you get.
  66. Steve D from St. John's, Canada writes: Vern writes: 'And the silly 5 grand tax shelter benefits only high income taxpayers.'

    Actually, in my estimation it provides an alternative to the RRSP for people who are in lower tax brackets and can't justify putting $5 k in to save $1-1.5 k rather than higher income people who will save almost $2.5 K. It also offers liquidity to the lower income person who is more likely to have to access it. It helps young people (all things equal with lower incomes than middle-aged persons) who are are saving for things five years down the road like a house rather than having to wait 40 years to find a use for it. The benefit of the non-taxable gains also grows for people as they move into higher brackets. It also encourages saving and thus investment assisting in economic growth. It isn't just personal or government spending that helps the economy grow, and it is investment not spending that encourages long-term growth rather than simply short-term stimulus. There is a place for both in this economy.

    Now on the other hand, you called it 'silly' and played the benefits-the-rich trump card so I guess you win the argument.
  67. Kevin Desmoulin from Toronto, Canada writes: I would call this a typical partisan move by the government, it is a budget to shore up support, that's all, Once again we are getting screwed by these conservatives and their over all mismanagement and general incompetence.
    So far we have little to almost nothing that Harper promised, nothing but lies or excuses or just poor workmanship in most or all the issues concerning Canada.
    I do not have to list them, it is like shooting blind.

    M. Harper and the Conservative party of Canada, You Are a minority government that was elected to governed for all of Canada, not for just supporters or your party or your ideology.

    To the Mr. Dion, and the Liberal party of Canada, Please knock them out, they are desperately using anything they can muster to continue on their short sighted path
  68. Kevin Desmoulin from Toronto, Canada writes: Hell we should could have used that 12 billion in gst tax cuts now, could have made a bigger splash.This is so stupid,
    Time to go you Guys,
  69. Vern McPherson from writes: Durward Saar from Canada writes: Great budget, the only dark spot is the intention to throw more tax dollars at a dead horse(auto paint by numbers manufacturing sector) Vital someone called it LOL, Forestry is vital, mining is vital, agriculture is vital and energy is vital, the auto sector is vital to it's employees and buzz Hargrove but just a drain on the rest of us. ---------------------------------------------------------- Durwoody do the COns want votes in the 905, 705, 519 regions ? Auto Part Sites Number of parts sites located in each region Barrie 21 Belleville 9 Bracebridge 7 Brantford 14 Brockville 5 Burlington 34 Chatham 19 Cochrane 1 Cornwall 2 Goderich 3 Guelph 37 Hamilton 16 Hawkesbury 1 Kingston 2 Kitchener-Waterloo 52 Lindsay 2 London 37 Mississauga 97 Napanee 1 North Bay 1 Orangeville 3 Oshawa 17 Ottawa 3 Owen Sound 4 Perth 3 Peterborough 4 Port Hope 2 Renfrew 1 Sarnia 3 Sault Ste. Marie 5 Simcoe 3 St. Catharines 25 St. Thomas 12 Stratford 22 Sudbury 2 Toronto 145 Windsor 74 Woodstock 26 Are these towns insignifigant ewnough for you to want all these plants and employment to disappear ? Or were you boffooning again ? dufus ............
  70. D K from Canada writes: ' Vern McPherson from writes: Bully for you and me dk.

    What about a little governance for those who could use a real helping hand. You want to continue tripping over them when you access and egress the fine shops on Bloor West ?'

    Feel free to donate to the charity of your choice. No one is stopping you.
  71. Auroran Bear from Montreal, Canada writes: I think this new account is a good start. FYI it's UP to 5k, it can be $100, $200 or $5000. If you put that in a bank you wont get much but if you are wise then you can make a bit of tax free cap gains, dividend or interest income, etc.... Obviously an RRSP is still the preferred vehicle because of the tax deductability but there you have to keep the money in long term or have the monies added to income and be taxable if you touch it.
    I guess the main problem with this is that when you see that the median value of a Canadian rrsp is only 25K then you realise that folks aren't able to put aside much money to begin with. The better idea would have been to scrap cap gains altogether but not enough votes are affected by that to make it politically palatible.
  72. jck from ontario from Canada writes: Vern
    The Liberals are going to support the budget. Mr Dion now owns the war and the budget . So if I guess he cares less about auto workers in Ontario .Hmm he gets most of his seats in Ontario will be interesting
  73. Hugo Hall from Calgary, Canada writes: This budget shows appropriate restraint while at the same time focuses spending in an effort to address key priorities. Best federal budget I've seen since former Finance Minister Paul Martin eliminated 'bracket creep'. Well done, Mr. Flaherty!
  74. CD W from Canada writes: So the financial idiot has failed on the cap gains promise again.
  75. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: No use having an election now until fall 2009. Dion must be just stalling for time now, hoping to learn English before the next election.
  76. Joe Loria, card carrying Conservative from Calgary, Canada writes: Have we all forgotten Dion's speech, a few days ago, to the Federation of Municipalities ?

    Dion promised the assembled mayors that he would only use the first $3 billion of the surplus to pay down the debt, and the rest (approx. $7 billion) on infrastructure.

    So how serious was Dion when he made that big infrastructure promise ? He delivered it like an election-time stump speech, so I got the impression he would fight Harper over it. But I guess not.

    Anyway, that 'promise' was just another in a long series of examples where Dion's words have no logical connection with Dion's actions.
  77. Vern McPherson from writes: Steve D from St. John's, Canada writes: Vern writes: 'And the silly 5 grand tax shelter benefits only high income taxpayers.' ----------------------------------------------------------------- Steve it's silly because it's ill-timed, and not relevant to those who truly need a break and a helping hand. It's silly because it's money spent where it isn't necessary to spend it. It's silly because it's grandstanding vote candy. It isn't even in force yet and may very well die before it ever comes in force. It is silly because it isn't the highest and best use of a scarce financial resource, capital turned over to the govt intended to do governance for all citizens for it's best use - not just a few - and I include some of the relatively highly paid unionized workers in that group. It's silly because it resembles the illusion of an acre of downtown real estate with a 200 square foot shoemakers shack on it - then calling that an improvement. It's silly because it adds to a whole host of tax deferral and tax avoidance levers that real low income people earning a living cannot access. It's silly because the COns appear to be attempting to suck and blow at the same time, cutting the GST to encourage consumer spending and then providing yet more tax avoidance dodo in order to discourage spending and promote saving. Why not bring the personal exemption up to $12,000 ?? and wipe SOME low income taxpayers off the rolls if we have this kind of money to toy with ? Wouldn't the 250 million it's expected to cost in the second year look good on the supplememt portion of a poor senior's income statement ? Would that amount look significant in the addictions treatment sector where the Heartfull COns allowed for a paltry 22 million this year FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY !!!! It's silly I tell yas ................... and typically gutless vote candy rather than the profound structural change flaherty portrays .........
  78. garlick toast from Canada writes: i wonder what the shelf-life is for this 5 grand tax freeby promise?i'd rather they bumped the basic personel exemption to a level where minimum wage-earners don't pay in.
  79. Don Quixote from the Banana Belt, Ont, Canada writes: Re: The cash saving plan - good but not as good as the first $1000.- of interest tax free - which 'generous' Brian took away from us, to promote spending (Check the eighties chronicles).
    Before people really saved, now they are weaned off saving and toilet trained to spend, spend, spend.
    So far the Harper led government carefully avoided any sudden election pitfalls, and the careful spending is not at last in relation to being in a minority government.
    One have to give Kudos to Flaherty for planning to pay down the everlasting deficit, thus chipping slowly away on the monetary slavery foisted on the Canadian Taxpayers by many variations of previous governments.
  80. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Vern McPherson; VERNIE: I still believe this all goes back to the inability for Dion to either define himself or the LPC in 2008. Abstention or voting for all CPC proposals-be that the budget-The Crime Bill, but most importantly, the Afghan issue has left him with no differentiation between himself and the CPC. Come time to vote in the next year-what will Dion hang his hat on?

    I would not have had a problem if the CPC had paid only $7 Billion instead of $10 billion towards the debt, yet because Dion will vote for the budget (in the method of his chosing....), he has placed himself in the same ideological box as the CPC.

    Where is the usual LPC blathering about the concern of Ontario unions-or poverty-or the environment? ( the Paul Martin love-in with BUZZ)

    Once again, he could have stood up for these supposed basic LPC principles and brought the government down because the budget does not address these historic (??) Liberal party concerns.

    VERNIE? Dion has been snookered! These Dion positions now become part of the permanent historical record to be referred to at a certain future time.Not good for him.
  81. Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes: 'NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: PM Harper is an ecomonist! He is all so one of the Greatest Minds that have ever lived. This Budget proves it! Thank You !PM Harper for putting money back in our pockets and not taking it! You are the first true leader this nation has ever had and you have started a Conservative that will last well into all time! Our Great Grand children will live under what you have created!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    You forgot to say Seig Heil !!!

    For your efforts here today you will be assigned to carry the big crooked cross banner at the next riding parade. ...............'

    ******************************************************

    Vern - most days yer insightful - annoying but insightful.

    Today, with a remark like the one above, now yer just an @$$hole!
  82. Vern McPherson from writes: D K from Canada writes: ' Vern McPherson from writes: Bully for you and me dk. What about a little governance for those who could use a real helping hand. You want to continue tripping over them when you access and egress the fine shops on Bloor West ?' Feel free to donate to the charity of your choice. No one is stopping you. ------------------------------------------------------------- You do live in a gated world dk. But your short sightedness and arrogance shine through the cracks in your brick wall. Of the group I referenced many are WORKING POOR. THEY ARE NOT CHARITY CASES. And they will never reach the higher end of the dream you and I have. That is by definition. Not all our citizens are so gifted with the ability to aspire to the presidency of the company like it happens in Hollywood or in the movies where yo uobviousy got your education. Not even all the poor struggling nerdy economists among us who never worked for a living a day in their lives can never be prime minister............. If you wish to institutinalize their loss of dignity with a remark like that well .............. you can deal with them when they accost you on the street when they rob you ..... When citizens not so privilidged as us get old they live on CPP from their employment and they get a little old age pension and a littler supplement. They are not charity cases - they are citizens like all of us and they don't have 5 grand to set aside and count tax savings. Snicker if you want but this CRAP is not nation building or leadership ............ not now and not ever...........
  83. Vern McPherson from writes: jck from ontario from Canada writes: Vern
    The Liberals are going to support the budget. Mr Dion now owns the war and the budget . So if I guess he cares less about auto workers in Ontario .Hmm he gets most of his seats in Ontario will be interesting

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The libs will be supporting both the budget and the Afgan motion becauase the COns too lib advice backed off their arogance.
  84. John Smith from Ottawa, Canada writes: Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes: 'NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: PM Harper is an ecomonist! He is all so one of the Greatest Minds that have ever lived. This Budget proves it! Thank You !PM Harper for putting money back in our pockets and not taking it! You are the first true leader this nation has ever had and you have started a Conservative that will last well into all time! Our Great Grand children will live under what you have created!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    You forgot to say Seig Heil !!!

    For your efforts here today you will be assigned to carry the big crooked cross banner at the next riding parade. ...............'

    Godwin's Law...'If you mention Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in'.
  85. Vern McPherson from writes: Joe Loria, card carrying Conservative from Calgary, Canada writes: Have we all forgotten Dion's speech, a few days ago, to the Federation of Municipalities ? Dion promised the assembled mayors that he would only use the first $3 billion of the surplus to pay down the debt, and the rest (approx. $7 billion) on infrastructure.So how serious was Dion when he made that big infrastructure promise ? He delivered it like an election-time stump speech, so I got the impression he would fight Harper over it. But I guess not. Anyway, that 'promise' was just another in a long series of examples where Dion's words have no logical connection with Dion's actions.

    -------