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EU fines Microsoft record $1.3-billion

AOIFE WHITE

Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 2:52 PM EDT 27/02/08

Regulators say company charged ‘unreasonable prices' to rivals who wanted to make products compatible with Windows ...Read the full article

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  1. Globe Reader from Canada writes: Better pay those fines now, before Euro rises to US$ 2.00 or more. (-:
  2. Dan Van Gageldonk from Toronto, Canada writes: Interesting story. On the one hand I see the need for them to open up and provide the information but alot of this seems to me like European protectionism. They will decide what is fair for Microsoft to give away their secrets. They are also looking at going after Apple. I guess if you can't compete on your own their always is the socialists there to give you a helping hand.
  3. Whodat Singer from St. Catharines, Canada writes: What Microsoft should do is say OK Europeans as you feel we do not play fair and refuse to divulge our secrets to you we are no longer going to sell our product or support our product in Europe. Goodbye.
  4. Rachel M. from EU or EI, unemployment Insurance, Canada writes: These European countries, with productivity down, and inability to compete, want to treat The Bank of Microsoft as its own piggybank.

    Whatever happened to the economic leadership, the mighty German ingenuity, ...like the French Concorde, it has now flew by the wayside. How sad .
  5. M Warren from Ottawa, Canada writes: Whodat Singer from St. Catharines, Canada wrote: What Microsoft should do is say OK Europeans as you feel we do not play fair and refuse to divulge our secrets to you we are no longer going to sell our product or support our product in Europe. Goodbye. ========================================= All that would accomplish is to make LINUX the new world standard.
  6. BC Refugee in AB from Canada writes: While I'm no big fan of MS even I have to admit this is blatant anti-Americanism on the part of the EU
  7. Free Spirit from Canada writes: MicroSoft is a corporate bully that uses it dominant position to destroy all competition in the software marketplace. The US does not punish it for anti-competitive practices because that company brings in tens of billions in foreign exchange and helps America dominate the world stage. The EU is the only political entity with enough guts to stand up to these corporate gangsters. The EU is leading the world in adopting open standards for file formats to level the playing field to allow real competition. Microsoft leave Europe ? Good ! That will set the stage for some real competition which otherwise cannot occur.
  8. Lane Myers from Canada writes: Isn't this just the best example of how socialism works. Governments dictating what companies can charge for their products. Why should government regulators intervene in the free market?

    If these developers want to develop programs that will operate with Windows they should be prepared to pay the asking price. Can't help but wonder if the regulator will dictate what these developers can charge for their product.
    Microsoft should temporarily pull the plug on the EU and see what happens. Linux may be great for the experts but it is not the system for the rest of us.
  9. Paul, Bytown, from Canada writes: Free Spirit from Canada, thanks for the laugh this morning. Using words like leader and guts when referring to the EU is hilarious.
  10. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:

    I wish Canadian regulators looked after us as well as the EU looks after its citizens.
  11. S. Bluecat from Netherlands writes: This isn't protectionism in the least bit. It's about holding a major corporation accountable for its actions. Its packages like Visual Studio come at such a major expense that hardly anyone can afford them. What most people don't know is that nearly all MS-based programming languages are not standards-compliant in the least bit. Because a program is written in c in Visual Studio does not mean in any way that it will compile with, say, the gnu c compiler. Projects like Cygwin and MinGW really have come a long way at providing compiler compatibility between operating systems. Applications like Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird, etc, even the Windows versions, are typically built with some form of MinGW to ensure portability, and of course, to save cost. Such software would not be free (as in cost) if the developers had to purchase the license to Visual Studio and pay the fees for commercial distribution of software.

    But even Cygwin / MinGW can only interoperate to the extent that the operating system allows. As the fundamental interactions with the hardware are a sacred trade secret for Microsoft, developing truly open software in Windows isn't possible, especially in light of their new 'trusted computing' initiative, which doesn't allow non-'Microsoft-ly' compiled programs to access certain 'protected' content.

    Perhaps even more of a blow to MS would be to require them to explain these intents clearly and publicly (and not in some seldom-read EULA). But, then again, the average joe user who wants a computer to behave like an idiot-proof toaster wouldn't have the intellect to understand them anyway. So, yes, this fine is clearly appropriate.
  12. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Free Spirit - Are you well? It called competition. Hmmm ...next I suppose Toyota will have to start exposing all it's manufacturing expertise to North American auto manufacturers. Hey and while we are at it, let's force RIM to reduce it's licensing and share their technology with the other wireless manufacturers in the world. Grow up.
  13. Flinton Rice from Toronto, Canada writes: This is European protectionism. Full stop. I guess the question is - what European company is anywhere near competing with MS?
    Never understood why people think MS is 'thwarting' some technological break-through. I thought that Linux would be a bigger player when I first started to use it ten years ago. It is crap (on the desktop) and it has not gotten much better.
    MS should release a completely 'stripped down' version of Windows to Europe. Leave it open, let them do whatever they want with it - provide minimal support and give them a version of office that is worse than WordPerfect 4. Oh right, that's Linux.
  14. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: S. Bluecat - What's wrong with delivering what consumers want? Apparantly you can become a multi-billion dollar company if you do. Just ask MS. Stop thinking of what a developers want and start thinking about what end-users want. You might even make some money.
  15. Martyn Whitt from toronto, Canada writes: Crap like this makes me hope so much that one day, my country will leave the E.U. completely and we can be a fully independent nation again, anybody who is pro E.U. is a complete tosser!
  16. Free Spirit from Canada writes: Competition ? Microsoft ? Oh wow. Where to begin...

    How about the OEM 'agreement' with computer manufacturers which forces computer manufacturers to install Windows on EVERY single computer they make. If even one single computer has a non-Windows system pre-installed, then the manufacturer must pay a MUCH higher price for EACH copy of Windows installed on the other computers. You call that competition ?

    If the consumer installs another operating system on the computer, they cannot get a refund for the pre-installed Windows which they did not use.

    That kind of practice is called a monopoly, when all computers have the same operating system pre-installed and the consumer has no choice.
  17. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: Even though we all like to verbally bash Mikey Soft, this is ridiculous. We should retaliate by levying a fine on the French Fashion Industry, the chunnel, Holland's red light district, Germany's Mercedes, Britain's rogue financial traders, etc. On the other hand, why don't we apply for E.U. membership ... we've got just as many muslims as Turkey!
  18. Free Spirit from Canada writes: Competition ? Microsoft ? Oh sure...

    Like the way they change the file formats for MS-Office documents every time there is a new release of MS-Office. Previous versions of MS-Office are unable to read the files produced by the new version of Office. So users are forced to upgrade their Office program to the latest version.

    Microsoft makes a 66% profit margin on Office. Does that suggest there is a competitive market for business software ?

    Every time I send someone a resume, they insist it has to be a Word document. Does that suggest there is a competitive market for word processing software ?
  19. S. Bluecat from Netherlands writes: Lord Stanley, no there's nothing wrong with giving people what they want. But why do they want it? Well, Windows is what they know since it came with their computer when they bought it. Learning a new system takes too much time and effort. And, they probably didn't pay anything for Windows. I recently bought a new computer from Dell without Windows (called the N-series, which they can't advertise it due to their agreement with MS). The price was no less than had I bought the 'regular edition' with Windows Vista and Office 2007 included. So, should I choose to buy Windows at a later date I must pay an exorbitant price for an installation CD in the store. In this sense, they are flooding the market with their technology by giving customers an ultimatum, saying, 'either take it NOW for free, or else make up your mind to choose us on your own later and pay the price for it.'
  20. Stephen Doucet from Canada writes: A nonsensical fine. Is there a new European 'human right' to Visual Stuido?

    This is Europe's biggest fine to date and yet chump change actually for Microsoft. They can make it up in fees and other charges to European consumers. For Microsoft it is all businesss - the cost of a fine versus revenue from willing customers.

    The high euro is already driving European export companies to cut back production in Europe and relocate to the US. Airbus and Nokia are just two companies doing this. Europe needs all the productivity tools they can get.

    If they don't like the price of Microsoft products, they can always choose a European alternative. Oops - there are none. Maybe the geniuses at the EU trade commission will make one.
  21. Peter Stern from Mississauga, Canada writes: Dan Van Gageldonk ... yes this is about protectionism... but you got it backwards. The EU is trying to stop Microsoft from being protectionist against competitors. All the EU wants is open competition. Microsoft has a long history of unfair and unethical practices... for example... deliberately making windows display fake error messages when a competitor's product is used.
  22. Free Spirit from Canada writes: Microsoft compete ? Yeah, right... EU governments are switching to electronic document formats that conform to open standards. Electronic documents such as word processing documents, spreadsheet documents, presentation documents, etc, must be in a open standard format. Open file formats ensure that all companies can create software which can be used by anyone. Microsoft file formats are all proprietary and secret. That is one of the ways they dominate and control the software marketplace. One company has a 95% market share. Does that suggest a competitive marketplace ?
  23. Peter Stern from Mississauga, Canada writes: Lord Stanley from Canada writes: ' S. Bluecat - What's wrong with delivering what consumers want?' You're joking right? Are you trying to tell us all that consumers want to pay more and have fewer alternatives to choose from? It's clear that you don't know the first thing about what is going on in the software world. Do people 'want' something like Vista that practically requires you to get a new PC? Do people 'want' a product with more problems and less compatibility? Oh please... Microsoft isn't interested in what consumers want. Microsoft does what it wants to make lots of money and has a big marketing machine to try and convince consumers that what is good for Microsoft is good for consumers. And if you believe that, then I suppose you also believed General Motors executives when they have said things like 'safety doesn't sell' and 'fuel economy doesn't sell' and 'Nobody wants environmentally friendly cars'
  24. Akbar M from Saskatoon, Canada writes: I have never paid for a MS program and I'm not sure why anyone would since they're freely available on the internet. Their disinterest in competition got my dander up a decade or more ago so I pay for their competitors software but not MS. They say 'you can't fight city hall' but I do the best I can in my small way. I'm one of those people that has been driving MS into the poor house with my pirating.
  25. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: I dont get this 'waaah waaah ms isnt competitive' nonsense no one is forcing you to buy a computer with windows on it you can readily put together a computer yourself (its not rocket science) and then load whatever OS you want on it. if you look around you can also get portable computers without the OS on them as well.
  26. Free Spirit from Canada writes: It should be illegal for manufacturers to pre-install the operating system on computers. The consumer should have the choice of which operating system is installed when they buy it. The price paid the operating system itself should be clearly indicated, not hidden in the total cost of the computer.

    This should be legislated. Hopefully the EU will do this next. We are looking to them for leadership in breaking up the illegal Microsoft monopoly.
  27. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Peter Stern - MS's net income says yes it is what consumers want. If consumers were so fed-up they should keep there existing systems and current versions of Office in perpetuity - really what new function can they come up with in Excel? And don't wine about losing support. Who has called MS for support on the OS or apps?

    If consumers continue to fall for minimal upgrades to the OS and apps then I guess that's what they want.

    Hmmmm ... and where to start on tied selling and monopolistic practices. There are 5 billion people on this planet. Perhaps there is a market for large corporation (Google perhaps?) to take on MS with a hardware and software package that lets all these 'oppressed' corporations and consumers finally get what they want. Oh that's right ... no company has done this because the average consumer/ business is all too happy to 'make-do' with their MS products. So is it MS or lazy consumers/ organizations that drive MS monopoly?

    This is just like everyone who wines about the cost of professional sports tickets. Don't go to the game if you don't like the product.

    Stop your altruistic whining.
  28. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes:
    This is just like everyone who wines about the cost of professional sports tickets. Don't go to the game if you don't like the product.

    Stop your altruistic whining
    ----------------------------------------------

    well said Lord Stanley
    no one is forcing you to buy anything!
  29. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Free Spirit writes - 'It should be illegal for manufacturers to pre-install the operating system on computers. The consumer should have the choice of which operating system is installed when they buy it. The price paid the operating system itself should be clearly indicated, not hidden in the total cost of the computer.'

    Ya Free Spirit ... and maybe we should all have the same salary and work for potatoes. Based on your logic you would force McDonald's to either stop selling Happy Meals or breakdown the cost on the bag. If you think you are not getting value - don't buy the package. BTW you can buy a PC without an OS - it just may not be a Dell.

    It is extremely ironic that you are posting under 'Free Spirit.' I guess your Free Spirit does not include Free Enterprise.
  30. Free Spirit from Canada writes: 'wines' are liquids for drinking. Perhaps you meant 'whines' ?

    People can't even spell aren't likely to understand the software marketplace or what a monopoly is.

    Isn't there a spell checker on that fancy bloated grossly over-priced MonopolySoft word processor ?
  31. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:

    'Regulators say company charged ‘unreasonable prices' to rivals ...'

    And the overbloated prices for MS products to consumers are OK??? one two three let's laugh at these EUlogators.

    Can consumers buy new computers without the bloatware VISTA??? if so how and until when (don't say get apple).
  32. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: K Kal for PM!!! His first legislation should be the introduction of hardware assembly in primary schools. These kids can then go home and teach their whiny parents how to get a PC without an OS.

    Hahahahahaha!

    P.S. Dual core Dell laptops are sub $600. At that price you can just wipe the OS. You could then invite all narrow-minded friends over and burn your copies of Vista and licenses.
  33. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Free Spirit ...Good comeback. I noticed you gave up on the debate. Now back to work for you 6 potatoes/ hour.

    (BTW - I posted again with the right spelling before your post. Grade 9 typing never agreed with me. Hey, but kudos on the small victory.)
  34. Robert MacDonald from Canada writes: I feel no pity for a company that charges $200 for an operating system
  35. Free Spirit from Canada writes: A lot of people posting here need to look up the meaning of this word:

    ---> SYCOPHANT

    There are a lot of Microsoft sycophants out there. Ugh...
  36. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: haha yea man, its like lego, but with bigger pieces!

    the kiddies should be able to pick it up with no problem
    they will even start having mini competitions on who can make the better looking PC, just like kids have competitions on who can put together the best lego tank lol

    if you want a computer with no OS and live near toronto, two streets for you, college and spadina.
  37. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Stude Ham - Here's one of many PCs without an OS...

    http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/category/category_slc.asp?CatId=1888&Nav=|c:119|&Sort=0&Recs=10
  38. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: Hey Lord Stanley - which ideology in particular is it that motivates you to shill for a corporation like Microsoft?

    Is it the childish and unfalsifiable belief that everyone gets what they deserve? (known as the 'just-world fallacy').

    Or is it some sort of crude and illegitimate neo-Darwinism that purports to celebrate intelligence when what it actually celebrates is greed?
  39. Erik D. from Ottawa, Canada writes: To M Warren from Ottawa, Canada writes: 'Whodat Singer from St. Catharines, Canada wrote: What Microsoft should do is say OK Europeans as you feel we do not play fair and refuse to divulge our secrets to you we are no longer going to sell our product or support our product in Europe. Goodbye. ========================================= All that would accomplish is to make LINUX the new world standard.'

    Go Linux Go! I'm all for that...
  40. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Free Spirit

    Look, you can buy a PC without an OS. You can buy Corel Office or a number of other open source Office-like products. You can also buy a number of other operating systems other than XP and Vista. Since you can avoid buying MS products, this leaves me to believe that everyone is upset because they can't buy a Dell, HP or Compaq without buying XP or Vista. Here's my suggestion if this is the case: Buy custom PC or bare bones PC, go to bed tonight and wake up tomorrow feeling good that you scored a moral victory against MS.

    Perhaps you should consider the above before labeling anyone a sycophant. It makes you come off quite naive.

    Perhaps you should consider the above before labelling anyone a sycophant. It makes you come off quite naive.
  41. Diane Schweik from EDMONTON, Canada writes: I recall MS being put on trial in the US for trying to force Netscape out of business.Bill Gates follows in the tradition of other would be monopolists like John D. Rockefeller.
  42. Mr X from Canada writes: 'S. Bluecat from Netherlands writes: This isn't protectionism in the least bit. It's about holding a major corporation accountable for its actions. Its packages like Visual Studio come at such a major expense that hardly anyone can afford them. What most people don't know is that nearly all MS-based programming languages are not standards-compliant in the least bit. Because a program is written in c in Visual Studio does not mean in any way that it will compile with, say, the gnu c compiler. Projects like Cygwin and MinGW really have come a long way at providing compiler compatibility between operating systems. Applications like Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird, etc, even the Windows versions, are typically built with some form of MinGW to ensure portability, and of course, to save cost. Such software would not be free (as in cost) if the developers had to purchase the license to Visual Studio and pay the fees for commercial distribution of software. But even Cygwin / MinGW can only interoperate to the extent that the operating system allows. As the fundamental interactions with the hardware are a sacred trade secret for Microsoft, developing truly open software in Windows isn't possible, especially in light of their new 'trusted computing' initiative, which doesn't allow non-'Microsoft-ly' compiled programs to access certain 'protected' content.' ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So how is it that Borland has been doing it for as long as windows has been around? This is protectionism plain and simple.
  43. Mr X from Canada writes: 'Robert MacDonald from Canada writes: I feel no pity for a company that charges $200 for an operating system '

    You have no idea how much it cost to develop in the first place.
  44. Green Canada from Edmonton, Canada writes: Lord Stanley obviously believes monopolies are fine in a free market. I tend to disagree, as apparently does the EU.
  45. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Jeff Pritchard

    Let me dumb it down for you. It's called free will. MS doesn't provide electricity to our homes - they sell software. Read my last post on how to buy a PC without MS products on it. If you couldn't buy a PC without MS on it I would agree that MS needed to be fined, but that's not the case.

    (P.S. I worked for Corel during the period they trumped MS in office sales. So please, keep 'shilling' comments to yourself as they are misguided. I am neither for or against MS.)
  46. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: the monopoly exists because consumers are LAZY! they buy things without research.

    all one has to do is research other OSes and other software and you will find that there are many alternatives to all microsoft products

    some examples

    OS - Linux/FreeBSD (free) www.ubuntu.com
    Office Suite - Open Office (free, multi platform, and yes it can read word, excel etc) www.openoffice.org
    Mail - use gmail. www.gmail.com (hint, using isp email makes you look like a sucker)
    Web browser - Firefox, Opera (both free multi platform) www.firefox.com, www.opera.com
    Media player - VLC player (free, multi platform) http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

    what else does a 'regular' computer user need? You could get yourself a 400$ bare bones machine (already assembled just no OS) and then get your hands on the above mentioned software for free by simply downloading it from their respective websites.

    hell if you get your hands on Ubuntu Linux, it already comes with firefox and open office installed ready to use

    sure microsoft runs a sketchy business but repeatedly buying their products keeps them in power. if you are going to blindly buy it then dont whine and complain about it later.
  47. Free Spirit from Canada writes: MicroSoft was put on trial in the US for forcing Netscape out of business. But the US government only slapped their wrists. The US government likes monopolies when they are American companies. The US would be screaming like a stuck pig if MicroSoft were an EU company.

    MicroSoft is a huge asset to the US government. MicroSoft completely dominates the world market for software. Computers are a strategic commodity, just like oil and minerals. Computer technology is essential to the economy of every nation. One could argue that MicroSoft wields more power on the world stage than the US military. The US can cripple the economy of any country simply by restricting the sale of MicroSoft products to that country.

    Monopolies are bad. They are anti-freedom, anti-choice. A free market is supposed to be best. But the current software market is anything but free.
  48. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: Free Spirit is top whiner. Speaking as if Bill Gates held a gun to his head and said 'buy microsoft or i will blow your brains out!' stronger than the US military? OKAY SURE BUDDY. if microsoft didnt sell their products to some country, they could simply download them with no trouble from the internet for free and give ms the big finger. but you cant download military might and hardware over the internet though last i checked. Anti choice? look at my post above, i even have URLs for you to go to. the choice is there, its YOUR problem if you are too lazy to go and learn about the alternatives.
  49. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Green Canada from Edmonton -

    In Economics, monopoly (also 'Pure monopoly') is a persistent situation where there is only one provider of a product or service in a particular market. Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods.

    Let's break this down...'only one provider' ...'lack of a viable substitute goods'

    OS - Apple, Linux
    Office Apps - Corel Office, Star Office
    Browsers - Firefox, Opera

    I have used all of the above products and they work great. Feel free to try one and 'break MS's Evil Monopoly.'

     Sun has provided most of the StarOffice code base to OpenOffice.org.

    Stop buying MS products if you don't like MS!!! It's easy to do, but I am guessing it is easier to complain like the rest of the cattle.
  50. Free Spirit from Canada writes: I would not use MS products even if they paid me. I have a 100% MS free software environment. There are a few things I cannot do such as view their stinking proprietary WMA-10 files. All file formats should be open standard to prevent greedy blood sucking monopolies from exploiting people and destroying competition.

    (I'm not whining -- I'm exercising my right as a free citizen to express dissent about a monopolist corporation which does not believe in free markets).
  51. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: VLC says it can play WMV

    http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html
    if your using mac os, then www.flip4mac.com

    if not then not a big loss really, its only WMV
  52. Rick N from Canada writes: Microsoft's simple solution to this insane fine is to double their prices in the EU. Flame away Free Spirit.
  53. Free Spirit from Canada writes: WMV is everywhere on the web. And WMV version 10 can only be played on an MS system. Kind of stinks doesn't it ?
  54. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Lord Stanley: How much is Microsoft paying you? MS is the most anti-competetion company that has ever existed. They are even worse than Big Oil. There is not a single instance where MS products are standards compliant. The purpose of that is to give MS control over all sorts of things. Not least of which is market ownership. Lets look at the internet, shall we? Internet Explorer is the most widely used browser out there. And that's a story in itself. But the only OS's IE works with are Windows and MAC. Which is fine, as far as it goes. But the problem with IE is all those 'special extensions' to the existing Internet Protocols and standards. That only work with IE. As is evident on this web site. The main site works OK with Netscape, but try working on the comments pages with any other web browser. It doesn't work. Why is it that the ONLY web browser that functions fully on the G&M site is a MS product - under Windows? Here I was, thinking that the Internet and World Wide Web were a neutral and independent organization with explicit, published standards that - supposedly - applied to all users and software. So, how is it that there are so many web sites - including this one - that will function correctly, if at all, ONLY with Microsoft's web browser? And what does this do for those who are using any OS other than Windows or MAC? And this is before we get into a discussion of the security issues with IE and Outlook. Or Windows, for that matter. Returning to IE, perhaps you could explain why it is an ABSOLUTE requirement to have IE installed on any Windows computer to have so many non-MS applications work at all. Especially since none of them are web applications? Why does Symantec's Antivirus or Firewall software absolutely require IE to work? MS is NOT your friend. Amazing how the prices of even upgrade versions fo Office went through the roof as soon as Wordperfect's office effectively became a marginal product. And all the versions of MS Office - why is that?
  55. J S from Toronto, Canada writes: It's time for North America to follow suit. This will allow competition. Computers have been out for how long, and as a layman, I have a choice of Windows or Apple. When I bought a new stereo I looked at five different manufacturers and they all had different features and sounds. Computers - do you want a Windows based PC or a MAC. And it doesn't matter what computer you buy as a PC - they're all the same operating system unless you're a programmer. What great consumer choice in our 'free market' system...
  56. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes:
    yea wmv/wma is crap, almost as bad as apple AAC or whatever their proprietary itunes crap is called
    lazy web devs using it without researching alternatives that are available

    i still use XP cuz i wanna play games, those games dont work on linux properly
  57. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: to Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada

    err im using firefox on these forums, works fine
    and IE on mac hasnt been updated for a while

    ie was on mac because they didnt have their own browser (safari) until 2003

    having said that, IE is a crap browser either way, thats why the first thing i do on a new windows install is download newest firefox or opera :)
  58. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ K Kal: You miss my point. Which is the deliberate arttempt by MS to gain defacto control of the internet. Firefox will work. But tjhe 'gre3at unwashed' has no clue about things like firefox. I have watched lots of people strat up IE by reflex - even after having an alternative made available to them. And after haveing thersecurity issues of IE described. And as far as it goes Netscape is more familiar to the general public than Firefox. As for the relative quality of browsers, I am less concerned by 'speed' than I am by the security holes in a particular browser. And, as a final thought, IE is just one example of the way in which MS 'extends' standards in a way that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to use anything but MS products.
  59. Free Spirit from Canada writes: IE was discontinued for Mac (because M$ was annoyed when Apple wrote their own free web browser).

    Open Office is good to have but it does not always read MS-Office files correctly nor does it always save them correctly. The Open Source community are not as good at quality control as a corporation with a profit motive. What we need is more corporations producing more competing products to give us more choices. Simple.

    If Microsoft is really the best they won't be affected by competition, no matter how many competitors are out there. So why are they so afraid of competition ?

    As a previous poster has pointed out, there are dozens of brands of stereos, cars, TVs, tents, laundry detergent, etc, to choose from. But there are only two commercial O/Ses and one free O/S. One of those commercial O/Ses forces you to buy their hardware.

    Open standards for operating systems, file formats and the internet would go a long way towards improving competition in the software marketplace.

    Freedom is great. We need more...
  60. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: @ Orest

    yea the 'average joe' computer user thinks of the machine as an appliance and is afraid/lazy to use something different, and MS is cashing in on this which is bad, but the user has to share some blame in this monopoly.

    I know exactly the type of users you are referring to, they are like sheep being herded, not able to do something that goes against defacto standard, in the end the 'revolution' has to happen with users first, stop using/buying the products and you will see how fast MS starts to conform to world wide standards and watch how fast they release proper SDKs/APIs to make windows dev easier.

    but every company does this, just look at apple with their proprietary iTunes nonsense. i hear the EU is gunna be fining them next, but in the end, its the users that support the continuing defacto standard, and sorry iTunes is a horrible media player; an inferior product has become defacto standard for newbs when playing music on their computers, kind of like IE on windows.

    Can't count the many times ive had to explain to an itunes/ipod user (fanatic) that yes other players/software can do the same thing (play MP3s) and have been able to do that before iTunes was even a gleam in Jobs' eyes.
  61. Free Spirit from Canada writes: The EU is fascist ? Sure, and the benevolent freedom-loving 'democratic' superpower promotes freedom by allowing monopolies (corporate dictatorships) to flourish and takes over entire countries with illegal military invasions. Give me the EU any day...
  62. The Wight from Canada writes: You MS apologists really need to do some research into their corporate practices.

    Pick an existing or emerging industry standard, from XML to HTML to .odf and MS is attempting to undermine them and create their own MS-designed standard. They openly bribe corporations with free or reduced cost technology to try and get these standards into corporate use.

    They also sign exclusivity agreements with large vendors like HP and Dell so that they can't even advertise that they have Linux-based models. That's not competition any more than paying off the time-keeper at the 100 metre dash is competition.

    Seriously, wake up.
  63. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky - Read my previous posts. I can actually say I worked for a MS competitor, so your suggestion that I am being paid by MS is just static from someone who cannot develop a decent reply to my points. I can blow up all your arguments easily ... Don't buy MS if you don't like their methods of selling or inter-product operability requirements. If G&M won't support Opera or Firefox - don't read the G&M! You have a choice other than complaining things are unfair. (Like buy their newspaper.) Here are some more things that will probably peeve you and you can now champion: Gillette disposable razor heads don't fit on Schlick razors. (We better get Big Brother to force Gillette to make a standard razor so Schlick can catch up. We wouldn't want a company to make money for their development and marketing success.) Three detergent manufacturers have about 20 brands of laundry detergent on the market. (Oh-oh ... do you think they are doing this to keep new detergents out?) Vote with your wallet and don't buy MS if you do not like their practices. It's like you want the Liberals or PCs to win the next election, but you don't like Dion or Harper to win. Pick your poison and stop all you’re complaining.
  64. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky - Read my previous posts. I can actually say I worked for a MS competitor, so your suggestion that I am being paid by MS is just static from someone who cannot develop a decent reply to my points. I can blow up all your arguments easily ... Don't buy MS if you don't like their methods of selling or inter-product operability requirements. If G&M won't support Opera or Firefox - don't read the G&M! You have a choice other than complaining things are unfair. (Like buy their newspaper.) Here are some more things that will probably peeve you and you can now champion: Gillette disposable razor heads don't fit on Schlick razors. (We better get Big Brother to force Gillette to make a standard razor so Schlick can catch up. We wouldn't want a company to make money for their development and marketing success.) Three detergent manufacturers have about 20 brands of laundry detergent on the market. (Oh-oh ... do you think they are doing this to keep new detergents out?) Vote with your wallet and don't buy MS if you do not like their practices. It's like you want the Liberals or PCs to win the next election, but you don't like Dion or Harper to win. Pick your poison and stop all you’re complaining.
  65. Eric the Red from Uzbekistan writes: ' Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: Even though we all like to verbally bash Mikey Soft, this is ridiculous. We should retaliate by levying a fine on the French Fashion Industry, the chunnel, Holland's red light district, Germany's Mercedes, Britain's rogue financial traders, etc. On the other hand, why don't we apply for E.U. membership ... we've got just as many muslims as Turkey!?' What an pointedly stupid and erroneous argument.
  66. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Free Spirit: Bully for you. But what happens if your job uses propietary hardware and controll software that requires Windows to operate? As one example, lets look at environmental or medical analysis. The instruments and devices that perform these functions are all computer controlled. And the OS that ALL of these systems require is Windows. Which is a MS product. You may want to keep that detail in mind. General applications may be flexible, but specialized apps aren't. And many of them are very poorly written and executed. But when you have spent between $500 K and $1.5 M - or more - on a new instrument, which is set up to be controlled by Windows-based software, you aren't going to be too fussy, now are you? Bill has you by the short and curliews. And there is no competition in this market because it is 'too small'. But the flip side is that a small market means that one can charge a very high price. Bucko, you haven't got a clue.
  67. Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: To developers: why bother with crappy windows crap, if you can program in Java. Write once, run everywhere. I don't understand why anyone bother programming specifically for windows.
  68. Free Spirit from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky, Lord Stanley, wow, the M$ borg has assimilated you. Completely. M$ Zombies. Have you no shame ?
  69. The Wight from Canada writes: 'Gillette disposable razor heads don't fit on Schlick razors.'

    That's three terrible comparisons in a row. I can't let them stand:

    Burger Deal - you can buy all the parts of the deal separately, combine them with other products on the menu or buy the sandwich at one place, the fries at another and a drink at a third. The deal you get for buying all three together is an INCENTIVE and is not mandatory. Can you remove IE from your PC? Nuff said.

    Razor/Soap - these are standalone products with near zero interactivity requirements and as such, cannot even remotely be compared to a PC. Even if you NEVER network a PC, the requirements for the various software layers and hardware to play friendly with each other make this comparison null and void. They don't affect each other, don't require other products to work, etc. You can't say that about ANY PC.
  70. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: To developers: why bother with crappy windows crap, if you can program in Java. Write once, run everywhere. I don't understand why anyone bother programming specifically for windows

    cuz programming in C and then subsequently compiling into the native binary for the OS = program runs faster
    and c isnt just for windows either
    and someone has to program java runtime environment specifically for each OS for it to work on that os, which isnt much different then making a port for each platform for a specific program

    its place is for smaller programs and web dev
    big time programs/games would slow to a crawl if written in java
  71. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Free Spirit: Another MS shill and appologist strikes. You had better work on the reading comprehension and cognitive skills set you claim to have. It is clear that you are lacking in it. You, in fact, really are a good example of what the term 'stupid, useless REMF' really means. OOPS
  72. Globe Reader from Canada writes: Lord Stanley from Canada writes: 'Hmmm ...next I suppose Toyota will have to start exposing all it's manufacturing expertise to North American auto manufacturers. '

    Bad example. Car makers are already subject to many more government regulations than software makers. And when Toyota's market share reaches 90%, you can be sure governments will be all over them, forcing them to play nice with everybody, including the competitors.
  73. Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: K Kal:
    'cuz programming in C and then subsequently compiling into the native binary for the OS = program runs faster'
    Java is not always slower. Java compiles to bytecodes, which in turn are compiled to machine language. The JVM is getting better all the time. So, this excuse doesn't wash.

    'and c isnt just for windows either'
    If you write for Windows, you most likely are completely tied to win32 and a bunch of M$ dll's. You CAN write portable C code but it's hard and you can not compete against Java that way. You'd be stumbling over too many technical hurdles and crappy libraries, which in Java are natural.

    'and someone has to program java runtime environment specifically for each OS for it to work on that os, which isnt much different then making a port for each platform for a specific program'
    Windows, Linux, and Solaris JVM are available from Sun for free, mainframe JVM by IBM, Mac JVM by Apple. Sun also open sources the JVM, and new ports are already appearing, like a new one for the Mac.

    None of your arguments are holding up.
  74. K Kal from toronto, Canada writes: @ joseph whistle

    well of course the JVM is available, someone had to code the JVM for each platform initially (to support the whole write once, execute anywhere)

    my only point is slowdown in performance when having same app compiled natively for an OS

    and when writing a large program, that slowdown would become very apparent.
  75. D K from Canada writes: In unrelated news the price of Microsoft products in Europe has increased 20%.
  76. Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: K Kal: you missed the point that the JVM compiles to native code. In fact, depending on what type of environment it's on, it generates optimized code. C code in general is compiled for the lowest (kind of) common denominator.
    Often, Java is actually faster than native C code.
    This is an age old argument that generally C people that don't do much in Java argue against. I've seen a million times over. Think though. The JVM can compile optimized code, it's really quite sophisticated.
  77. smelter rat from Canada writes: $1.3 billion? Bill will take that out of his coffee fund...
  78. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    Being successful is apparently a crime in Europe.

    Americans dream of being their own boss and becoming a billionaire. Europeans dream of a government job and a good pension.
  79. The Wight from Canada writes: "Being successful is apparently a crime in Europe."

    No, rigging the game in your favour because you have 90% market share is a crime.

    Apple has Safari. MS has Internet Explorer. Both companies have their own pet browser. So far so good, right?

    Try and remove them.

    Safari comes right off with zero loss of core functionality. Just drag it to the trash and it is gone. Internet Explorer CAN'T be removed. If you do manage to, you wreck the help system, the automatic updates and about a half dozen other internal technologies that have been built around IE. You remove it, you literally bork the machine. Do you not get that this was done by DESIGN?

    It's all statistics. They know that if they can ship a machine with Windows and IE on it that the vast majority will never change the OS and won't download a competing browser. Making them so intertwined ensures that every Windows customer is automatically an IE customer.
  80. Andrew Burke from Canada writes: All these "you're free to switch" are completely and utterly naive. You could switch, but chances are -- especially in a corporate environment -- you'll be dealing with people who haven't switched, making your potential switch completely infeasible.

    Chances are the people complaining about protectionism are the standard right-wing fair, so how about this right-wing belief; absolutely belief in the supremacy of law. Microsoft flouted the law, they were punished.
  81. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Wow. The amount of utter ignorance in these comments is ... quite astounding, even for G&M readers. The utter ignorance of the law, of what happened, of the events leading up this fine, and of anything else having to do with standards and ethics is deep and profound.

    Microsoft broke E.U. law. This is exactly the type of thing they did in the US, except the US courts didn't have the balls to actually do anything to this very powerful company. The EU takes consumer protection much more seriously, and it's about time that Microsoft was fined. Microsoft thought they could get away with ignoring the EU courts the way they ignore the American ones, and have been reminded that they cannot.

    $2 billion is pocket change for Microsoft. It's like a $200 fine for most of the rest of us. It hurts, but it's hardly all that painful.

    What Microsoft has done, however, has cost countries (including the US and Canada) many more billions. Their lockin to proprietary formats, the unethical actions over the last 20 years, their crushing of their competition using any means at their disposal including ILLEGAL abuse of their de-facto monopoly - all this has finally come to haunt them in Europe.

    I note that the US and Canada are still licking Microsoft boots. Only goes to show who is really boss in those countries.
  82. deliciously uncanadian from Canada writes: Desperate to fill their coffers, Europe turns to extortion.

    Even dealing with criminals (purchasing stolen property) doesn't seem off limits anymore.

    So, no, not licking any boots, but creepy nonetheless.
  83. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Lord Stanley: I did. And you are a MS shill and appologist. I note that proprietary applictions have not been addressesd by any of MS's shills.
  84. Free Spirit from Canada writes: Sorry Orest, I thought you were on the Dark Side. I stand corrected. However, no need to get nasty...
  85. Joe V from Canada writes: What do they call the law under which this fine was levied? "Wealth redistribution"? It's pretty clear at this point that they're just stealing money from American companies to boost their own revenue.
  86. Andrew E from Calgary., Canada writes: Atlas Shrugged, anyone?
  87. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Joe V: Selective amnesia, is it? Why is a MS monpoloy a "good thing", but Bell Telephone's monopoly a "bad thing"? Especially since Bell's product works as advertised and there are none of the "undocumented" security gotcha's in Bell's product - as compared to Ms's product line. Why is that? How much are you being paid to shill and tout for MS?
  88. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Andrew E: Ayn Rand's "philosophy" - Objectivism - was discredited a long time ago. Just like Communism and Fascism were. All three "philosophies" have one major point in common. They all are very selective about the aspects of human nature and behaviour which they promote. They are equally selctive about the aspects of huiman nature and behaviouir which they ignore. This means tha tthey are all completely disconnected from reality. Any claims to the contrary notwithstanding. Reality is a baitch. Accept and deal with it.
  89. pants 7 from Japan writes: Brian Millson I Think Microsoft bid for yahoo just to run that company into the ground.
    Behind all the monopoly talk, I really think that the EU is after the NSA back door key in windows.
  90. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky

    Your position is incredibly weak. Your real problem is you can't stand that most consumers won't exercise their options to choose other software other than Microsoft. You resort to insulting and labeling other people to validate your position. (This is an obvious sign that someone is on the losing side of a debate.... hmmm ... I know I'll hurl insults.) Perhaps if you re-read my posts you would realise that most of the trash you have posted does not even come close to responding to my position - which is:

    You don't have to buy MS products. There are viable choices. I use many of them and so do millions of other consumers.

    Suggestion: Clean out your garage and develop your own OS. (Or did you already fail trying and that's why you blindly hate all things MS.) Hahahahahaha…..
  91. Lord Stanley from Canada writes: The Wight - You missed the point of my comparisons, but I enjoyed all the effort "exposing" their flaws.

    I'll help you...

    They were to point out that in every industry companies position their products in ways to gain competitive advantages. (I think I'll plug my Dell keyboard