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The ugly truth in Afghanistan

GRAEME SMITH AND PAUL KORING

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 12:54 AM EST 01/03/08

On the heels of a parliamentary debate, the weight of war sets in. Graeme Smith and Paul Koring take an in-depth look at Canada's flagging nation-building effort. ...Read the full article

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  1. J Law from Canada writes: At one time these reports were worth reading. Unfortunately slipshod reporting and research of late have made so many of these so called in depth reports simply personal opinions that are shallow and therefore no longer credible.
  2. Bert Russell Paradox, BC from Canada writes:
    J Law: Yes - remember the times when GM was capable to investigative journalism? Now the Editors only instructions are that any reporting out of the Middle East shall not be open to public comment. Otherwise they pass on unconfirmed wire stories.
    The Latimer story was another incident where they wouldn't allow public comment on these posts, because their ownership political correctness wouldn't be able to handle the fall out. Todays media does their social engineering by censorship. Freedom of speech be damned.
  3. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Gentlemen:-- This is not a public place, it is a forum hosted by the Globe and Mail. None of us pays to participate, so we are here at the Globe's pleasure. You can go crow from the rooftops and no one will censor you. The Globe and Mail has the right (and perhaps even the obligation at times) to shut down any debate it so desires. Whether it adequately covers a particular news topic such as Afghanistan is an entirely different matter. My guess, Bert, is that you were entirely happy with the investigative journalism that went on at the time of Adscam, which simply indicates that you are a partisan. There's nothing per se wrong with that, it's just a bit limiting ;-).
  4. Marv M from Canada writes: Since when has a UN operation been anything more than just attempting to keep a bad situation from getting worse? Why are these journalists and others always looking for a silver lining in everything?
  5. siren call from Canada writes: 'At least temporarily, hard-pressed Canadian troops in Kandahar will get help when more than 2,000 battle-hardened U.S. Marines and their helicopters land this spring in southern Afghanistan.'

    I thought the story was 3,200 battle fatigued, er, hardened marines. Just what Afghanistan needs, more violence.
  6. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: Sun Tzu:
    Military operations should aim at speedy victory and not prolonged campaigns.

    In Afghanistan, if the west hasn't won by now, it's facing prolonged, ignominious, and inevitable defeat.

    Oh, wait. The Yanks are coming!
  7. siren call from Canada writes: Thanks to Graeme Smith and Paul Koring for their investigative report.

    To the 2 curmudgeons who started this thread -- just because reports from the front are negative, doesn't mean they're wrong. Look into almost any NATO country press report; the story is all negative, even in the USA.

    Or, tell us how this piece fails the test of journalism.
  8. James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: they may as well close comments on these stories. the same crew will soon crawl out of bed, and come on here cutting and pasting ad nauseum all kinds of quotes and articles from various websites, cluttering the forum up, and in the end, achieving nothing but a lot of wasted time :-)

    i'd rather discuss the chuck cadman story but comments are closed there. i'm curious as to why the events surrounding that story remained virtually unknown until this week. i guess i shouldnt bring that up here but it is indeed an intriguing story.
  9. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:
    Aren't those other viewpoints a bummer?
    Imagine, the temerity of others to hold differing opinions.
    As far as Cadscam goes, you'll have to tough it out with the rest of us.
  10. siren call from Canada writes: James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China -- well we're all curious about something not being discussed on these threads. Personally, I'm interested in the story that our Prime Minister leaked the story about Obama not being serious about opening NAFTA to negotiation.

    'According to the source, Wilson exaggerated the communication between the Obama campaign and the Canadian official during discussions this week with Ian Brodie, the prime minister's chief of staff, who leaked the story to CTV.'

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4365922&page=1

    I mean really. Between bribing dying men, bullying prairie farmers and allegedly meddling in the US election, its been a busy week for old control freak Harper.
  11. Journey Man from Ontario, Canada writes: Everyone should read the column by Eric Margolis on this matter published Feb. 11 'WHY EUROPEANS ARE NOT EAGER TO DIE IN AFGHANISTAN'.

    http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2008/02/whyeuropeansa.php
    -
  12. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: James C:-- It is intriguing, but I think it has been discussed out until some new information is revealed. I found Ralph Goodale's comments about the insurance available to MPs and how it can be transferred to private life very interesting. Even more intriguing is the news that someone in/close to the PMO leaked news that the PMO may be trying to influence the American election (undermine the Democratic race).
  13. James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'But finding another country to replace Canada, or even provide the additional 1,000 soldiers the Harper government is demanding as a price for staying in Kandahar until 2011, won't be easy. Few NATO members are in a position to help.'

    ----------

    not really true. there are some NATO members who are in a position to help and have the troops, they just dont have the willingness to deploy them.

    'Longer rotations would also reduce the problems that happen every time a fresh group of Canadians arrives in Kandahar. There is usually a spike in civilian shootings as the nervous new troops settle into their roles, and Afghan politicians complain that every new group of soldiers seems to forget what the previous rotation learned.'

    ----------

    longer rotations would reduce the problems since new soldiers would only be entering the theatre once a year instead of twice. But the complaint that new soldiers dont take into account what the previous rotation learned is probably not accurate. every rotation has its 'lessons learned' that are ALWAYS passed on to subsequent rotations. it obviously takes time for a new rotation to build trust and connections with local officials but its not fair to say they disregard what the previous battle group went through. it's an unavoidable fact that it takes time to get up to speed once you're on the ground.
  14. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    What a shame.

    We acquiesce now, in the grandest traditions of Neville Chamberlain, and die in our millions later.

    Santanya, 'Those that ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.'

    Pull the plug, social progressives.

    Your children will die for your cowardice.
  15. James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:
    Aren't those other viewpoints a bummer?
    Imagine, the temerity of others to hold differing opinions.'

    ----------

    unlike you, i was referring to both sides :-)
  16. Typical Toronto Voter from I know what to think because the Globe tells me!, Canada writes: Funny how nobody seems to be upset that Cadman completely sold out his vote in order to get more insurance money for his family, all the while claiming publicly that it was because of his 'constituents wishes'.
  17. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: More sophisticated weapons for the Taliban?

    Why do these journalists never report on who is arming the Taliban and other insurgents?

    There is the real story!
  18. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:

    There are only two sides to an argument.
  19. Typical Toronto Voter from I know what to think because the Globe tells me!, Canada writes: As for the first two comments, this paper is run for the benefit of us Ontarioans and if you want responsible journalism you'll just have to go elsewhere!
  20. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: siren call:-- Thanks for that link. I'm not going to complain, ever again, about bad writing by the Globe. That article was poorly written. But, what a tangled web - so many webs have been woven this week.
  21. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: Typical:
    Try the Toronto Sun.
  22. Jim Cohoon from Canada writes: The deteriorating situation in Afghanistan (or at least the southern provinces) is becoming sadly reminiscent of the Vietnam War. A tragic phenomenon is being repeated: despite 'noble' intentions stated by many among the power elites, including the stated importance of 'winning hearts and minds', Western governments and their armies simply cannot seem to get a handle on how to effectively connect the dots of their own stated logic and aims. Something is badly amiss -- either in terms of how they actually do things, or in terms of perceptions (among locals) of how they do things. Just as institutional 'groupthink' undermined a realistic (and truthful) appraisal and reaction to events in Vietnam, something very similar seems to have put the Western powers in Afghanistan into a kind of ideological straightjacket that prevents them from not only 'winning hearts and minds' on a large scale, but (more importantly perhaps) even honestly understanding why they are failing to do so. That would explain why the 'official' story is often so different from the perspectives of civilians such as Sarah Chayes (who live and work there). There is something very dysfunctional about the way our Western political and military leaders continue to claim to be trying to do 'good' in the world through these kind of wars, while seemingly so unable or unwilling to grasp the larger picture of human psychology and motivation in which 'noble' war is turned against itself in self-defeat. Maybe we can't win these kind of wars because we can't genuinely understand peace. And maybe we can't genuinely understand peace because of the rising cultural and political influence of the perpetual war-machine called the 'military-industrial complex'.
  23. James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:

    There are only two sides to an argument.'

    ----------

    doesnt my use of the word 'both' imply 'two?'
  24. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:
    Yes, my point is that by the tone of your initial post you try to take a superior position by elevating yourself from the argument without offering anything.
  25. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Jim Cohoon:-- Good post. Bill Moyers' interview with Sarah Chayes was very interesting.
  26. James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: 'Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:
    Yes, my point is that by the tone of your initial post you try to take a superior position by elevating yourself from the argument without offering anything.'

    ----------

    thats not what i meant or intended. i think if you've followed my posts on here you would agree. but i wonder why i bother posting anything of substance on this forum anyway since ultimately any well thought out post (by anyone) ultimately gets buried in the moronic comments and ad homimen attacks that are sure to follow here.
  27. James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: at any rate, its a nice day here and i'll now leave this thread for the guangji bridge.

    good night to all of you...
  28. Able Bodied Man from Colony of Van Isle, Canada writes:
    LET US REMEMBER

    Let us remember at election time that it was the Liberal party that put us in Afghanistan.
  29. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: James:

    One's well thought out posts of any sort are not likely to change anybody else's mind.

    However, I've found that my own more or less well thought out posts have occasionally changed my own mind, such as it is.
  30. I R from White Rock, BC, Canada writes: Well what is the situation in Afghanistan? NDHQ and Harper say that the situation is improving, the Taliban are on the run and that the Karzai government is doing so well, that NDHQ and Harper and MacKay have once more entrusted the lives of detainees to their apparent law abiding prisons...

    Or, is all of this merely spin, lies and propaganda?

    We have seen nothing but conflicting stories in the case of the detainees. Now we are seeing conflicting stories in the case of the actual operation.

    The integrity of the Harper govt, of the Canadian Forces and of Canada's reputation internationally are now suffering. And what do we hear in reply?

    1. National Security - you have no right to know as it will endanger national security.

    2. Support our troops - any dissention or questionning means that you do not support our troops.

    3. You are the enemey - You are either with us or else an agent of the Taliban (using Mr. Van Loan's words).

    4. It is the fault of the LPC.

    5. It is the fault of the Italians etc.

    An awful lot of finger pointing, but no leadership. And our troops are still in harm's way.
  31. tim allen from winnipeg, Canada writes: I'm angered, embarassed and saddened that Canada is associated with such a violently disastrous enterprise. It's amazingly awful to think that the people fighting us aren't the people responsible for 911, but are instead regular afghans who think Canada and NATO are so pathetic that they deserve to be kicked out.

    And what's most astounding of all is that both of Canada's main political parties plan to recommit us to this war for another 3 years! Is the world upside down or what? I mean, imagine the benefits if we had we taken the money spent on bombs and bullets in Afghanistan (billions) and used it to provide clean drinking water to every child on Earth? That would be a truly humanitarian mission.
  32. Camilo Cienfuegos from Misled, Canada writes:

    'If you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does the dog have?'

    '4 - calling it a leg does not make it a leg!' (Abe Lincoln (1861))

    Warmongers are pathetic.
  33. Rachel M. from National Inquirer ?, Canada writes: Scandal, scandal everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

    Why doesn't G&M allows its reader to comment on the article below on the Cadman so called brewing scandal.

    Last month were a bunch of push articles from a resurrected 'business man' facing extradition, pointing fingers at an ex PM.

    When that did not pan out, now articless trying to revive a dead ex-Tory MP that may have gripes about the sitting PM and his party.

    Wonder what will next month bring, when this get no where again.
  34. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes: The Canadian news media has been as lacking in rigor in its reporting on Afghanistan as the American news media was for so long on Iraq. The world wondered how Americans could be so blinded by the pro-war propaganda when it came to Iraq - now we've seen the same thing happen here as well.

    'In a blunt assessment this week, Vice-Admiral Michael McConnell, the U.S. intelligence czar, admitted that the Karzai government controls less than one-third of the country.'

    So much for the credibility of that vaunted poll from five months ago, a poll carried out by ACSOR, the Kabul subsidiary of an American private company D3 Systems Inc. that's based in Virginia near Langley and Washington DC and specializes in conflict zones where the US has military operations ... If the Karzai puppet regime controlled less than a third of the country, and even the aid organizations have withdrawn their international staff from Kandahar in recent weeks, then just how did pollsters - clearly working for foreign interests - get around?

    The news media has been AWOL on questioning all the war propaganda and doing real journalism. This article seems to be a step in the right direction.
  35. Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes: I absolutely agree with the first three posts and I don't bother to read the rest of them. Waste of time. I was disapponited with Robert Latimer story and that it wasn't open to discussion.
  36. Duane Freemantle from writes: Matt Waldman sums it up the best by saying, 'The secret to success will be not imposing Western ideas and values.'
  37. bob crier from Toronto, Canada writes: There is only one way to improve the situation in Afghanistan. Learn lessons from how India has been able to bring insurgency under control in Punjab and Kashmir. Round up all tribal leaders and execute them. Mercilessly eliminate insurgents and suspected insurgents. Terror is the only thing these people understand. The only way to control viciousness is through viciousness. Alienate insurgents through terror. Use all means available to investigate, yes, including extreme torture. Every other means is just going to waste away many more innocent lives on all sides.
  38. Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: bob crier from Toronto, Canada writes: Terror is the only thing these people understand. The only way to control viciousness is through viciousness. Alienate insurgents through terror. Use all means available to investigate, yes, including extreme torture.

    Great Bob, we have become the enemy.
  39. Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: LET US REMEMBER

    Let us remember at election time that it is the C.R.A.P. party that is keeping us in Afghanistan.
  40. W. Mayne from Canada writes: So Canada is unable to get help from their NATO allies, are these allies cowards or are they smart?
  41. Barry Pither from White Rock BC, Canada writes: This was a futile campaign right from the start.

    And I always said that despite the rhetoric we would never never bring real change to Afghanistan; it's just a wasteland for our tax dollars.

    On the other hand if REAL change is your goal then why didn't the Conservatives offer substantial help to the homeless in Vancouver in their budget instead of pouring money into wooly foreign policy objectives?
  42. Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: since I am not allowed to offer my opinion in the Cadman discussion thread, may I offer that Steven Harper might bring about the end of this Afghan conflict sooner by bribing the insurgents?
  43. Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: 'LET US REMEMBER

    Let us remember at election time that it is the C.R.A.P. party that is keeping us in Afghanistan.'

    *************************************************

    So Dion's/LPC's support of the extension is all a fabrication is it?

    Either you're one hell of a revisionist sheep or a liar. Which is it?
  44. W. Mayne from Canada writes: Came across these comments from 'Tankerat' on a BB post, do these comments apply to Afghanistan?

    'This concept we have in the US of 'exporting Democracy' used to seem attractive to me. I am a political Conservative, always have been, always will be. However, after a cumulative 10 months of foreign travel over the last 10 years, I now see that 'democracy' is not even thought of or wanted in certain areas of the world. Yes, they want a government to tax them fairly, keep them out of wars, and to refrain from unduly meddling in their lives, but, for literally billions of people, especially in Asia, democracy is not a desperately yearned for goal. The concept that the common man can influence government is not accepted or thought to be possible, or even especially desirable. That said, the autocrats and the despots worldwide are naturally being forced to join the world community and to 'lighten up' on their subjects due to the worldwide influence of the internet and television. '
  45. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes: 'And in the battle-scarred landscape where Canadians operate, many people nurse deep grudges against the foreign troops after having their relatives detained or killed in the years of fighting. 'That's where we're seeing the growth in this insurgency, from the local grievances.'

    'The insurgency is showing signs of increased radicalization, too, ... as the most extreme insurgent leaders try to wrestle control away from more moderate Taliban.'

    In other words, this foreign military occupation in Afghanistan just creates more terrorists, makes them even more extreme, gives them better training, and creates deep grievances against Canada. Our involvement in this US-led invasion and occupation only endangers Canadians - and we've lost 79 lives already.

    Even if we doubled the length of the deployment of our troops and added 1,000 other NATO troops to Kandahar, it still wouldn't be enough to hold on to more than 6 out of 17 districts in Kandahar, if we go by what the deputy commander of Canada's battle group said. All it would do is sacrifice yet more Canadian troop lives for nothing.

    Support our troops by bringing them safely home to their families.
  46. James Young from Brantford, Canada writes: Everybody with a computer on the Internet knows the content of the Article. The rah rah rah from the Globe, and particularly Graeme Smith and Christy Blatchford was unbearable to anybody who cared to look.

    Now if only Hillier, and Harper's Mob would read this article. Manley needs a good swift kick in the butt for his silly report. Not one member of the Globe took Manley to task for one of the stupidest reports written in recent times.

    Finally some truth for the Canadian Public from as Canadian source. People ahad ot go to foreign press to get real news. Welcome back G@M.
    It is nice you have pulled your head out of the sand.

    Durgan.
  47. Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: 'Iraq 'distracted us from the fight that needed to be fought in Afghanistan against al-Qaeda,' said Senator Barack Obama, the Democratic front-runner, who has promised to both pull all of his country's 160,000 soldiers out of Iraq and send tens of thousands to Afghanistan.'

    ***************************************************

    Send 'tens pf thousands to Afghanistan' - guess Obama is a warmonger just like GWB.
  48. Chris Young from Newfoundland, Canada writes: Craig Cooper from Toronto writes: 'Why do these journalists never report on who is arming the Taliban and other insurgents?'

    A few months I saw a British university prof on a TV news show state that the Taliban are able to raise money in Muslin countries from people who feel a general hostility towards the Christian west and their presence in countries like Afghanistan.

    Remember that the Taliban pay their fighters more than what the Afghan army pay their troops.
  49. Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: Bill, I will try to explain to you in simple terms (I understand your mental limitations) The C.R.A.P. motioned the bill to stay in Afghanistan, The Liberals supported it because they have a mousy little person who is afraid of an election leading them.

    So do you understand how the C.R.A.P. is keeping us there or are you still confused?
  50. James Young from Brantford, Canada writes: One can only assume Manley never left the Officer's Mess in Khandahar while interivewing for his dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb Report.

    There is hardly a politician in Canada, with the exception of Jack Layton, who can hold their head up this morning.

    Where have all the jingoists Sheeple gone. Hardly a comment from them this morning? Maybe they are all committing Hari Kari.

    Durgan.
  51. Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: 'Bill, I will try to explain to you in simple terms (I understand your mental limitations) The C.R.A.P. motioned the bill to stay in Afghanistan, The Liberals supported it because they have a mousy little person who is afraid of an election leading them.

    So do you understand how the C.R.A.P. is keeping us there or are you still confused?'

    ...and all the LPC has to do is grow a pair...as long as they are supporting this they are as guilty as the CPC.

    Understand now Homer; or like the episode where Sideshow Bob tried to kill your sister-in-law do I have to break out the finger puppets and stick figure drawings to explain it to you?
  52. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: W. Mayne suggests that ‘democracy’ is part of the problem, and I agree. It is the propaganda of using democracy to sell the reason for ‘war’ when in reality, it is the cover for geopolitical power. Thus we have a puppet govt of the US, corruption, and civilians who see through all this. They see because their loved ones are being killed whether by the supposed good guys or bad guys.

    More of the same, US MARINES on the ground, will create more insurgents. They are about blasting them, and the glory of war.

    BOTTOM LINE, do Canadians want to be involved forever in US invasion, spending billions in Afghanistan, as occupiers and propping up corruption and a govt that is representing a wee chunk of the country?

    So more of the same will not work, as we see, it is getting worse, so trying diplomacy and local peace building would be the way to go. Because it is the stuff of everyday lives that matters - the squabbles over land, water or patronage that often simmer underneath the broader reasons for conflict. Afghanis are like us, it’s the every stuff that matter.
  53. Bill C. O'llector from Canada writes: Rachel M. from National Inquirer ?, Canada writes: 'Scandal, scandal everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

    Why doesn't G&M allows its reader to comment on the article below on the Cadman so called brewing scandal'

    *******************************************

    Yes, 'tis rather funny.

    Yesterday it was done sure as $h!t and comments were open - today we have the LPC 'floating a theory' and another interview from Cadman saying the contrary and comments are closed.

    '$1M policy for terminally ill near impossible: experts'

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080229/insurancepolicies080229/20080229/
  54. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Finally, a G&M article that reflects the reality of the situation made by just about every American, European, and several other Asian sources.

    Two thoughts come to mind: 1) When the going gets tough, the tough get going. 2) Do not allow naivety to obscure logic and reality.

    We Canadians have been sold a bill of goods-first, by Hillier to appease the US military and secondly, by the Harper/ Manley group with its ridiculous recommendation for the addition of '1000 troops'-as if that solves all.

    In the big picture, we are a minor player representing about 4% of the forces-yet one doing the hard lifting. We are also dealing with real Canadian lives and families!

    Military experts are now in agreement: We 'Must go BIG, or go home!' Status quo is failing. Depending on the experts, that number appears to be at least 100,000 more troops.

    I had only wished that PM Harper would have stood up for Canada and expressed the same-but he caved. I had also hoped that the LPC would have stood up for Canada-perhaps a Dion defining moment- but he also caved miserably!

    Canada now has no options but to stay (2011?) because of total and weak leadership from both Partys.
  55. When do we Eat? from In these here, United States writes: Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:
    What a shame.
    We acquiesce now, in the grandest traditions of Neville Chamberlain, and die in our millions later.
    Santanya, 'Those that ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.'
    Pull the plug, social progressives.
    Your children will die for your cowardice.'

    Excellent verbage Sir! Couldn't have been said any better than that.
  56. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: HMMMM! PM Harper and our Defence Minister and the Head of our military say one thing, while two liberal reporters say something different. Which one I'm going to believe?

    The war in Afganistan is turning into what appears as a total victory for Canada! Ynder Harper we are becoming a Super Power. The other day the next president of the United States thanked Canada for what we are doing in Afganistan. Hillary or Barack don't even know where Canada is on the map!

    The liberals errored when they did not send troops into free Iraq. Both battles could be over by now Lets hope We answer the call when Bush frees Iran!
  57. Expert Eel from give Steve the Heave, Canada writes: A Simpsons metaphore Bill?

    Oh Wow man, do I ever surrender to your superior intellect.

    Did you ever show me a thing or 2.

    I know when I'm outclassed.
  58. Mahatma Gandhi from Calgary, Canada writes: In Iraq, the Americans thought a few weeks of 'shock and awe' would be sufficient to control the country. The Iraqi militias vanished and regrouped, invented tactics to stop the Americans, and the occupation failed miserably. In Afghanistan, the Americans thought that a couple of weeks of carpet bombing would destroy the Taliban. The Taliban vanished, regrouped, and came back, and the occupation of Afghanistan is also failing irrevocably.

    We need to stop buying into the American military strategies. They're old hat, they are guaranteed to fail every time against a guerrilla force, and the Americans still don't get it.

    We are not going to defeat the Taliban militarily. It's not going to happen.

    What we have to think of right now in Afghanistan is how to help the millions of refugees that foreign invasions, including ours, have created. If we really want to help the Afghan people, we need to invent other ways. Military operations a la World War II are simply not working.
  59. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: For those frustarted by the Cadman story being closed, go to the related story by Christie Blatchford. It's well put and comments are accepted.
  60. Anuradha Bose from ottawa, writes: Why are we propping up a corrupt government whose writ seems to run no farther than Kabul with our tax dollars and our citizens' lives?
  61. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: Lucien Pignon from France! Alberta was founded by Americans That is why they are the most succesful province in Canada.
  62. Auroran Bear from Montreal, Canada writes: 'The secret to success will be not imposing Western ideas and values,' he said.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is why NATO cannot ever win in Afghanistan.
  63. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: Remember two things: (1) if the GAM fails to applaud the Government line on Afghanistan, it is somehow 'helping the terrists', and (2) the Liberals have collapsed as a separate political party (except in name), as they have become -- willingly, under Mr. Dion -- the junior partner in a majority party that is run by the Conservatives, so any criticism or even questioning by a member of the Liberal Party is, as a practical matter, impossible.

    Alrighty, then.
  64. Mark Shore from Ottawa, Canada writes: 'In retrospect, it was naive.'

    A suitable epitaph for a failed mission.

    I'm sure some older Afghans are looking back to the golden age of the 1960-1979 Soviet satellite governments.
  65. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: The Taliban want an election here in Canada so they can attack our troops. they understand what is going on here. I loe to see a PC tv ad in the election of some one loadng a rifle with a bullet and at the same time someone is marking a ballot voting liberal. Then at the end of the ad a person in a uniform gtes shot! Proving that you vote liberal Canadian troops die!
  66. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:
    What a shame.
    We acquiesce now, in the grandest traditions of Neville Chamberlain, and die in our millions later.
    Santanya, 'Those that ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.'
    Pull the plug, social progressives.
    Your children will die for your cowardice.'

    *******************************

    Since when is one of the poorest nations on the planet, with no missiles or airforce to speak of, which cannot even raise an army to police itself ever going to pose such a threat to my way of life? I cannot beleive such lugheads! The dual absence of a Soviet Union to confront, twinned with a shooting war you guys are all so perversely happy to be finally in, has created the absurd spectacle of `taliban/al-Qaeda under your bed' propagandistic nonsense.

    Jihadists are a nasty little global problem - but little, and not a threat to either our civilization or our way of life. Get over yourselves.
  67. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: Seems that Boreal Moose has forgotten that 911!

    We are in a far greater war that the world has ever seen.! if they win all the world will fall under their control. We are now living in the End of time! Read your Bible
  68. pants 7 from Japan writes: Why would the locals join the Taiban?
    Because the warlords were worse and 'we' put the warlords back in charge. As bad as the Taliban were, they were mild when compared to Canada's new friend and former governor of Kandahar, Gul Agha Sherzai.
    Perhaps a public trial and execution of Sherzai in Kandahar would go a long way towards winning the hearts and minds of the local people.
  69. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: Seems that Boreal Moose has forgotten that 911!

    We are in a far greater war that the world has ever seen.! if they win all the world will fall under their control. We are now living in the End of time! Read your Bible

    *********************************

    New York was fine and back to work two weeks later. Afghanistan is mired in excrement from 30 years of being `helped' by foreigners.

    And your last statement suggests you are possibly one of those end-of-days freaks, like a few in my family were. Yes - the end of the world was when the Kaiser rose. Then the Third Reich was the beginning of the Last Days. Then the Soviet Union and then the European Union. But since none of these prognostications worked out for the bible belters, we now have Global Islam as the new bugaboo to all you people who simply must arrogate to yourselves the last tickets to heaven in the last years on earth. I've read my bible, and it says you're nuts!
  70. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: Seems that Boreal Moose has forgotten that 911! We are in a far greater war that the world has ever seen.!

    I am curious as to your perception of 'who' and 'what' was attacked on 9/11-and the 'why' as to those who attacked?

    .
  71. john chuckman from Canada writes: The U.S. has never been seriously interested in building anything, even were it possible to do so. It is there to kill people, but that fact makes ugly-sounding copy. So we have the whole sorry myth about nation-building and helping girls. You only have to ask yourself how is it that the U.S. won a rapid victory originally? The answer is that they used the warlords of the Northern Alliance as surrogates while they bombed the crap out of the country. But the Northern Alliance warlords are many of them every bit as horrible and backward as the Taleban. The Potemkin-village schools that are built are closed almost as soon as they're opened. And the truth is the U.S. does not care, so long as they can do the killing they want to do. Even now they're blowing up people in neighboring Pakistan, and they very much want the right to conduct a small invasion there. This is the logic of Israel with the Palestinians, and as any clear-headed person can see from Israel's ugly example, it goes no where but to more destruction. We were suckered into this war, and it does not reflect any, not any, of our national interests. It is only natural that you 'flag' when you try to do the impossible. See this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/21/afghanistan.afghanistantimeline
  72. True North from Canada writes: NATO wants an indefinite, active military presence in Afghanistan because it is right next to Russia, China and Iran. Appealing to terrorism on the right and human rights on the left is a smoke screen.
  73. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    john chuckman from Canada writes:..... Even now they're blowing up people in neighboring Pakistan, and they very much want the right to conduct a small invasion there....'

    Morning JC: US Special Forces are already in Pakistan and will increase their presence. Just Google it, or here are a few links below from 12/07.

    http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3669

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22978944-2,00.html

    .
  74. Ken Woodwords from Ottawa, Canada writes: I watched The Agenda by Steve Paikin this week on TVO where panelists touched different aspects of the Afghan mission. When they put up the map showing the border (Durand line) between Afghanistan and Pakistan where Pashtuns are split almost equally between two countries and Afghanistan never recognized the border the conflict at the south exposes a completely different picture. To quote Janice Stein 'We have to see our involvement through Afghan's eyes not through ours'.

    http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/
  75. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: Same Old Sh!t. The war and fear mongers keep spewing it, all reality and facts to the contrary notwithstanding. And the Saudis keep setting up, financing and staffing those madrassses in Pakistan and other parts of the world, exporting their lovely Wahabist 'philosophy' and we keep selling them weapons sytems. Not to mention buying their oil. But, WTF, goombas like Ezra Levant and his ilk are entitled to their Hummers and SUVs. We don't need no steenkin energy conservation - it's a Socialist plot. Where do you think the Taliban gets its philosophy from?
  76. Richard Stanczak from Corunna, Canada writes: Well, we didn't have to wait long before NeoCons like Mr. Sharp and his fellow travelers trotted out the Neville Chamberlain analogy.

    Lets see what would the difference be? Hitler - dictator of a modern, heavily industrialized, dominant military, large, populous, and strategically located country. Taleban - rag tag, small [in the thousands], hiding in mountain caves, foot travel only, poor, with no permanent base of operations, in one of the most isolated and backward countries in the world.

    Do you see the difference?

    The closest modern equivalent might be Putin in Russia. Is anyone gearing up to preempt him?

    Or better yet, what about North Korea. So what is the US and South Korea doing there?

    Oh, thats right, they are negotiating.

    By the way G&M, excellent article. Finally some balance to the unending cheer leading from Ms. Blatchford et al.

    Unfortunately this is the point in time where we either flood the country with soldiers [ie. over 250,000] to achieve a decisive victory, or get out and leave the Afghans to figure out their own future.

    Since the NeoCons will not pay for a full out war, looks like we are left with option two.

    END THE OCCUPATION OF AFGHANISTAN.
  77. C. B. from Canada writes: The Canadian army is allegedly in Afghanistan to do some nation building?
    Canada has tried for decades to do some nation building in... Canada. So far, it is still not doing very well. It is certainly not in a position to tell or show others what to do and how it is done.
  78. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: The Chickenhawk motto: 'No sacrifice is too great . . . for someone ELSE to make.'
  79. Mx Lin from Brampton, On, Canada writes: Why Canadian Gov doesn't spend that War money on Infrastrure. (Widen Hw 410 for example).
  80. Bill Casey offered a dead cod wrapped in newspaper to come back ? from Canada writes: James C from Chaozhou, Guangdong, China writes: they may as well close comments on these stories. the same crew will soon crawl out of bed, and come on here cutting and pasting ad nauseum all kinds of quotes and articles from various websites, cluttering the forum up, and in the end, achieving nothing but a lot of wasted time :-)

    i'd rather discuss the chuck cadman story but comments are closed there. i'm curious as to why the events surrounding that story remained virtually unknown until this week. i guess i shouldnt bring that up here but it is indeed an intriguing story.
    Posted 01/03/08 at 1:46 AM EST |

    Thank you james for working Sat. and adding so much to the story . To bad stevie and his censors are swirling down the toilet and the tiger team is allowing the truth to get out ?
  81. garlick toast from Canada writes: when we rotate fresh troops in,civilian casualties go up.that about sums it up.
  82. David K from Guelph, Canada writes: Yet another perspective on 'cost' which I suspect will not be popular in Ottawa or Washington;

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/28/iraq.afghanistan

    This whole thing is getting well out of control.
  83. Tetchy Citizen from Canada writes: Dig in, boys and girls. Thanks to the Liberals and Conservatives you'll be there for three more years... and how many beyond that? Why not join John McCain's 100-Year War?

    Time to look at the alternative, Canada.
  84. Free Spirit from Halifax, Canada writes: Question:

    Where are the increased numbers of Taliban coming from ? And how do they get their weapons ? Where do they get their explosives expertise ?

    Answer:

    Follow the money: Western motorists fuel up with gasoline made from Saudi oil. The Saudi government gives some of the oil money to the ultra-conservative (Wahhabi) clergy in Saudi. The Wahhabi clergy send some of their money to fund religious schools (madrassas) in Pakistan. Some of the madrassas train religious students (Talibs) in radical Islamic ideology and insurgency methods. Some of those Talibs (Taliban) go to Afghanistan to fight the infidels. Some NATO soldiers come home in body bags.

    Conclusion: The Western dependence on Saudi oil is the root cause of this problem. The real problem is in Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan...
  85. Richard Soley from Cochrane, writes: The sad and ugly truth is not in Afghanistan it is in the lack of understanding and effort the world body is putting forth to help the 'ordinary' people in Afghanistan. If those who like Tim Allen think that Taliban or Warlords or Al Queda are typical Afghistan people then yes NATO will fail, not due to ability but due to the political inability to come to grips with the real threat. When the Terrorists are harried and pursued their ability to conduct operations is severly limited hence the lack of operations overseas. THe soldiers cannot respond to the G&M but if we continue the bury our head in the sand and ignore the reality then Canada will also be 'hit'. How is it our soldiers lack heavy lift helicopters? How is it our soldiers are short handed? how is it our soldiers are asked to do a job without the proper tools? Discuss this in blogs all you want but the ugly truth is that Canadians have gone to far down the garden path and it will take an 'ugly truth ' to bring us back to the real hard ugly dirty world which our soldiers are trying to protect us from. Support our soldiers they operate in tough dirty conditions and have not the liberty to speak of their accomplishments. Failure is not an option.
  86. Percy from NL from Canada writes: This is yet another example of the injustice being perpetrated against our heroic troops by a government which seems willing to set them up for continued failure.
    Shame on the Manley Panel for suggesting that a mere 1000 troops additional NATO troops are that is needed in Kandahar.
    Shame on the Conservative government for blindly adopting such a spineless, yet politically correct for NATO, report.
    Shame on the Canadian media for continuing not to question this critical aspect of the Manley Report.
    Shame on Conservative supporters for remaining silent on an issue so important to the support of our troops.
    It's time to get the politics out of this and put some real spine back in.
  87. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: The sad and ugly truth is that certain elements in Canadian society, politics and the media have no issue it seems with trying to tear down any efforts being made. The battle seems to already be lost ... here at home anyway. How very sad and telling of today's Canada.
  88. No Left or Right Just Neutral from Canada writes: We are 'nation building' in Afghanistan???!!! Since when???

    This MISSION is a very successful one boys and girls!

    **
    Opium poppy production in Afghanistan reached another record high last year....

    Afghanistan grows nearly all of the world's opium poppy crop in an illegal trade worth billions of dollars......

    The growth in Afghanistan's opium crop began in earnest after the overthrow of the Taleban by US-led and Afghan forces in 2001.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7271654.stm
  89. Free Spirit from Halifax, Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky writes: 'the Saudis keep setting up, financing and staffing those madrassses in Pakistan and other parts of the world, exporting their lovely Wahhabi philosophy and we keep ... buying their oil. ... Where do you think the Taliban gets its philosophy from?'

    Precisely. Follow the money...
  90. Joe Flow from Canada writes: Steven Harper will be rewarded handsomely for the complete support he has given the Bush war machine. This support extends all the way back to when Steve wrote a letter to the New York Post, apologizing for Canada's non-involvement in the Iraq invasion/occupation.

    Harper's unequivocal support of ALL american military actions led Harper to defend Israel's arbitrary execution of 8 Canadian citiziens, present in Lebanon when Israel bombed citizens, randomly, in an act of revenge. Harper described that action as a 'measured response'.

    Harper's support of all american military action extends to present day, to a situation wherein Canada's troops are suffering a higher rate of casualties than other participant nations in Afghanistan, and where most other NATO countries refuse active duty in the more dangerous regions of Afghanistan.

    Wars in the middle east are about money....not human rights. Harper's unfettered support of GWB in all areas...right down to arguing america's position at environmental conferences...will guarantee he is pieced off large by Bush et al, at some point down the road. Too bad Canada's youth has to pay with their lives, for Steve's retirement packae.