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The working wounded

SIRI AGRELL

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 2:00 AM EDT 08/03/08

In Afghanistan, Canadians suffering serious injury on scale not seen since Korea ...Read the full article

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  1. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Having both legs blown off below the knees would certainlly hurt, but would not effect my abilities as an engineer.

    A home office works quite well, but if I were disabled, you can rest assured that I could easily pass the rivers of hell to get to work.

    When is the last time that you saw someone in a wheel chair at your local bank?

    Never?

    Fortunately, I still have legs, and still play rugby. Best Regards.
  2. Robert Billyard from Mission BC, Canada writes: War is all glory if you walk away from from it, hell if you don't. If politicians had to send their own sons and daughters to war it would be far less appealing and this is a large part of their tainted judgment and intellectual cowardice.
  3. LJ Brody from Canada writes: What a pathetic waste - this is all of our fault.
  4. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Sick head politicians. I wish you would listen, bring these kids home.
  5. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Good for TD and Ed Clark.

    All banks will rip you off, but at least this bank tries to give back somewhat. Seems like an organization I should be banking with.
  6. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd, strange as this may seem, it's not all about you.
  7. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: 'He [MCpl. Paul Franklin] was taken aback further by comments from some soldiers who said a wounded man in a wheelchair did not belong in uniform.'

    Nice.
  8. F.T. Ward from Canada writes: When journalists quiz the government on the cost of the Afghan mission I hope they insist on an estimate of the long term health care costs, the costs of replacing the wounded and the costs of warehousing the injured until they are released. This is costing much more than the government has admitted so far. I'd also be interested in seeing the total of deployable CF members by trade- not the total enrolled but the total trained and healthy. That figure would be instructive as to the actual capability of the CF and give an idea as to what is coming down the road when many soldiers have done a second Kandahar tour.
  9. Jim Goodwin from Philippines writes: Asa retired soldier, what impresses me with these men is their strength of character. It is very good that General Hillier is behind the men 100 percent. I can remember a time when you got punished for hurting yourself, basically sent to Coventry. Although there still some dinasaurs around, I think the main reason for the thinking of some that someone in a wheelchair should not be in uniform, is the reminder that they could be next. Good luck to all these individuals, in their future endeavours. If they can battle back from these serious injuries, they can succeed at anything.
  10. Pamela Achurch from Peterborough, ON, Canada writes: This discussion reflects the ambivalence of our society with regard to disablity. Despite honest attempts at leveling the playing field, the reality remains that the options of an amputee or mobility impaired person are limited both in civil society and the military. I applaud Gen. Hillier for his support. Flexibility seems key to handling this issue. I have forgotten the ratio of support personnel to one frontline soldier; but, it seems to me that there must be meaningful roles that disabled soldiers can fulfill. It really boils down to the reality that if you can't work with your body, you must work with your mind. We, the voters, must consider the consequences of being involved in a war, especially the human costs. Allowing the injured soldiers to be dismissed and forgetten in just not acceptable.
  11. Sandra Labelle from Gravenhurst, Ontario, Canada writes: Great to finally read an article on the wounded out of Afghanistan. Our country sent these men and women out there in harms way. Something Chretien wasn't interested in doing. Now we have these severely wounded men and women and Hillier says let me know before you let them go. Give me a break. They should be paid full wages for the rest of their lives but of course there are probably so many of them. You failed to mention how many in the article. Anyway it probably would bankrupt the country. We often hear of the fatalities but the wounded are our biggest fatality because they have families to care for as well as themselves. I will not vote Conservative this time around and I was a Conservative for many years. To our politicians out there. Get us out of there Pronto. If we did not support the U.S. in the oil driven war, our young people at home wouldn't have to work two jobs just to pay their gas and heating costs.
    a cost that is equal or more than a mortgage payment. A point to ponder don't you think.
  12. I. Con O'Clast from Canada writes: To all the politicians who prattle on about supporting the troops, put your money where your mouth is. If you send kids off to this dirty little war, the least you can do is ensure that, if injured, they receive their salary for life.
  13. Garry Sugden from Richmond Hill, Canada writes: My granddad lost a leg in WW1. He was a reasonably intelligent working class guy with mostly manual dexterity type skills. The way it worked was that he received a disability pension all his life while his work was thing like, Caddy master at a golf course for many years, residential building superintendent, short order cook. He managed to keep his family strong right through the great depression. There are many of these examples out there. This is how the modern wounded (whether military or civilian), together with government and NGOs like the War Amps, need to shape their lives.
  14. Garry Sugden from Richmond Hill, Canada writes: I should also point out that, like many who went into the service, and suffered injury, at a very young age my grandad always felt connected to the military. He kept up this connection by staying active in things like the Royal Canadian Legion (where he was a Branch President for many years), the War Amps and regimental organizations.
  15. Semi Fully Censored from Bushland, Canada writes: 'What prospects are there for soldiers, when they return?' -- Answer: a very lonely business indeed. Readers interested in what is almost never said publicly should refer to 'War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning', by Chris Hedges, and to William P. Mahedy's 'Out of the Night: The Spiritual Journey of Vietnam Vets'. In the process, one learns what NOT to expect from military and civilian authorities, as a war Vet.
  16. Richard Soley from Cochrane, writes: If we as a society can deplore the transfer of detainees to the host government we must be able to have the same level of concern for the battle damaged. Canada insists that both English and French be a prerequsite for employment by the federal services perhaps the first requirement should be to rehabilate, train and employ those who have given the greatest sacrifice to their country? General Hiller adheres to the right doctrine, care for your men first dueing and after. Brigadier- General Colwell can be concerned about the numbers but as Canada is not in the kind of sustained conflict that marked WWII we can afford to adjust to the reality that now exists. As a nation we had more fighting infantry on the ground per captia than any nation if the WWII conflict, we can and are required to care for the battled damaged, without reservation.
  17. Little Dickie from Beautiful Downtown Port Dover, Canada writes: As I read these comments this morning, I see a lot of comments from people who do not know what it is all about ...and a few from people who do ...and appreciate what these soldiers do. You have to give Gen Hillier credit. He makes it his call, when a wounded soldier is to be released. That is a lot better then having some rear echelon type or civilian deciding on a wounded person's future. Not everyone in the military is in the army, maybe all the military personal should serve in the 'combat arms' part of the army before they are sent to other parts of the army, or the navy, or the airforce ....then they would know what it is to be there. It's also nice to see some leaders in our business community stand in there and say ...give us your wounded ...we can use them ...because they know what leadership is, and how to take responsibilities in their everyday actions. A lot of people who post here don't know what that means...and probably will never know, because they haven't got the balls to get involved. The only world they know, is the computer screen in front of them, and how to make stupid...yes, I say stupid remarks. I am retired from the army, 28 years of service, served with four different infantry battalions, and three different armoured units. I have been retired since 1980
  18. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: I am more convinced than ever that General Hillier is the right man for the job.
  19. Trex Missing from Canada writes: Robert Billyard from Mission: War is all glory if you walk away from from it, hell if you don't. If politicians had to send their own sons and daughters to war it would be far less appealing and this is a large part of their tainted judgment and intellectual cowardice. Mr Billyard - War never appeals to anybody above the age of eight, but it sometimes is, sadly, the 'least worst' option. As to 'glory', Sherman summed that up pretty well 150 years ago – “War is hell.” On a personal level, I sent my own son to Afghanistan. No, I am not a politician, just a parent who is extremely proud of my boy and what he has helped accomplish. Unlike most people in this placid, smug country, he and his peers will never have to wonder if they have made a difference. Oh, Ms Labelle from Gravenhurst – If your main concern is that looking after wounded veterans will bankrupt the country, perhaps it is time we reconsidered our national priorities. We can find the funds for every wacko project and PC cause going, but when it comes to supporting those who loved Canada enough to give literally everything to it, oops – red light! Madam, go read Kipling’s Tommy a few times and then talk about priorities. A couple of points about the article itself. First, a major consideration in the decision not to keep wounded troops centrally located had was the desire to put healing casualties near their friends and families. I find that a nice humanitarian gesture. Second, it’s worth noting that many catastrophic injuries can be overcome, given will and support. As just one example, a recent Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was General John Shalikashvili. Shalikashvili lost a leg in Vietnam, but went on to become his nation's top soldier. I think the bottom line is that our vets - all of them - deserve our respect, our support and, if necessary, whatever assistance they require, now or in the future.
  20. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Matthew Parsons, it seems that even members of the CF won't support their own. From the article:

    'He [MCpl. Paul Franklin] was taken aback further by comments from some soldiers who said a wounded man in a wheelchair did not belong in uniform.'

    It sounds like the public is more supportive of wounded vets than is Canadian military culture.
  21. Jim Z from Canada writes: This article brings home the horrors of war it is sad when we lose one of our young warriors. But even sadder when one is injured and has to move forward in life. Our government should be 200% behind our wounded service people. My father served in the second world war and was injured in a training accident an aircraft a bomber crashed killing all the crew except him. He endured a number of operations over a one year period back in the forties it was a miracle that he survived his injuries. It took many years to get a small pension. Today he is 91 years old and still suffers from his injuries
    in fact he is back in hospital after suffering another mild heart attack.
    Our injured and maimed service people need to be looked after properly and should never have to suffer because of inadequate compensation from the Canadian government. I know from personal experience what my mother went thru with my Dad to obtain some financial consideration for the injuries he suffered. Lest we forget.
    God bless our service people.
  22. Duh Work Farce Virtually Alive from Canada writes: Disabled vets deserve all the help Canadians can give them to live a good life. I especially don't want to see any on the streets begging for spare change as what happened in the US post-Vietnam. With the Afghanistan War still well-supported by millions of Canadians, the disabled vets are high profile popular heroes.When the war is over, politicians and governments tend to want to forget them and leave them to their own devices. Remember two years ago when the war was not an election issue, but lowering the GST 1% was a big election issue? Well, if it was up to me I'd raise the GST back up to what it was in 2005 and use those extra billions to support the vets, the disabled vets and all the vets who were damaged by nuclear experiments and experiments with Agent Orange.
  23. Free Spirit from Canada writes: Anyone disabled in combat should get a full pension immediately plus free training for a new profession. Anything less is a human rights violation. I don't believe in the mission but I do believe in people. People should always come first.
  24. Free Spirit from Canada writes: But here's a thought... A person who buys a package of cigarettes is presented with warnings of the health risks. The same principle should be apply to recruiting soldiers. Potential recruits should be warned with graphic videos and photos of what could happen to them in the line of service -- photos of caskets draped with a flag and photos of the severely wounded. Instead the recruitment offices show photos of heros sitting in a tank behind a machine gun smiling. There's no life live it. Indeed...
  25. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Hillier's action to require his personal approval before a wounded soldier is released is very humane until government and bureaucracy keeps up to the modern human consequences of the CF missions.

    He is basically saying, we will take care of you until there is a program in place that benefits you.

    The CF has not been in large scale active service since Korea and the personnel policies do not reflect the required care and support that must be given wounded soldiers.
  26. J Lee from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Finally Hillier is doing something right by supporting this disabled soldiers. But where is the system, the proper procedures, polices and adminstrative staff and where is the government policy that makes this a real social commitment and not just one persons individual decision. Only when there is a formal framework for dealing with disabled soldiers has the issue been dealt with. If you have to depend on the personal decision of one person then you really haven't got that much support or assurance.
  27. Little Dickie from Beautiful Downtown Port Dover, Canada writes: Let me tell You How It Is from United States writes: 'Tell me about it...'

    'Canadian fighters in Afghanistan like Canadian Omar Khadr and all his other barbaric Middle-Aged thinking loser friends. Also that loser Khadr senior. And us US tax payers have to pay for Khadr's health care costs and rehab. '

    LET ME TELL YOU...you are off subject...not only off subject...but off base. This story is about Canadian Soldiers, who have been seriously wounded in combat. not about problems the in the world the US has caused.
  28. bob smith from brampton, Canada writes: $100,000 per tour? The soldiers probably are praying the war goes on for a long time. There's money in them Afgan hills.
  29. garlick toast from Canada writes: the ratio between the cost of the iraq war and the cost of caring for the vets is 1-1. canadians will be required to pay a similar ratio for our adventure.
  30. Fred Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Wounded and maimed vets are bad for moral better to discharge them from the army as soon as possible .. New recruits have to believe they are invinsible and not see what could happen to them or talk to bitter maimed vets .. Out of sight and out of mind is the best policy going forward if we are to win this war ...
  31. Offshore Directional Driller from Phuket, Thailand writes: Gee, I would have never guessed that the G & M was against this military action. Any chance of running a positive story now and then and actually supporting our troops?
    If we had yellow bellys like the editors at this rag running the country 65 years ago Europe would be in jack boots speaking German.
    Why was feedom so important back then and not now?
  32. Semi Fully Censored from Bushland, Canada writes: I should like to add to my previous post. I find that video terribly moving. It confirms, that everything William P. Mahedy wrote in his book, about the US, applies to Canada: 'At Sunnybrook... first thing medical staffers tell me... 'we were just not expecting anybody to get hurt... we just were not ready for this'...'. I want to insist that in the US, Vietnam war vet Mahedy soon found out that the medical staff (even the best elements amongst psychiatrists) were not at all ready to treat Vietnam war vets suffering from PTSD: indeed, totally ignorant of what war was, those people did not even know where to begin treating war vets. Together with other Vietnam vets, Mahedy had get organized and to provide US Vietnam vets with the psychological help and support they required. Martin Petit, a Canadian soldier, (see his book: 'Quand les cons sont braves') has also confirmed the same applied, in Canada. Psychological help for our vets seems to be lacking even more than physical help. How ready can we assume that Canadian medical authorities now are, when it comes to helping our vets suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSD)? THE ABOVE ARTICLE DOES NOT EVEN MENTION that most destructive illness that so often leads to suicide, amongst war veterans! THAT IN ITSELF IS A BAD SIGN. Our troops therefore require the support of all Canadians who, unlike Offshore Directional Driller from Phuket, Thailand, can dispense with their daily dose of 'positive stories', for they have what it takes to face the reality of war and its consequences for the troops. Our troops need the help of those Canadians who can understand and help them, after combat. As in the US, those are few and far between, in this country. Canadian authorities must urgently provide all the means necessary so those who can, prepare urgently to provide the psychological help already required by our vets.
  33. garlick toast from Canada writes: Offshore Directional Driller from Phuket, Thailand writes: Gee, I would have never guessed that the G & M was against this military action. Any chance of running a positive story now and then and actually supporting our troops?
    If we had yellow bellys like the editors at this rag running the country 65 years ago Europe would be in jack boots speaking German.
    Why was feedom so important back then and not now?

    -----------------------------------------------

    freedom includes the right to know wtf is going on.
    lying or failing to report different aspects of the war is not how you increase morale.information can't be massaged like it was back when information came over the wire.
    who uses the term ''yellow bellies'' anymore? some one who watches a lot of john wayne movies.listen up pilgrim, this isn't your granddaddy's war,battle fronts and uniforms.this is vietnam all over and we know how that turned out for all concerned.
  34. Offshore Directional Driller from Phuket, Thailand writes: garLICK toast you completely missed my point. Try and follow along more closely on the next negative article. Colloquialisms notwithstanding.
  35. Northern Princess from Canada writes: Free Spirit from Canada writes: But here's a thought... Potential recruits should be warned with graphic videos and photos of what could happen to them in the line of service -- photos of caskets draped with a flag and photos of the severely wounded. Instead the recruitment offices show photos of heros sitting in a tank behind a machine gun smiling. There's no life live it. Indeed... _______________________________________________________ Of all the posts that I have read, this by far must be the most idiotic statement ever printed. Most men/women have done some kind of homework before walking into an recruitment office and if they haven't, they learn extremely fast what it is all about and what will be expected of them even in any Peace Keeping Duties (which by the way can be just as dangerous). My husband and I have been together for 32 years (this June), we've been married for 29 yrs (this july) and he's been in the Military for 30 yrs (this May) and has been on deployment/exercise/etc half of our married life. Do you not think that we both knew what to expect before he signed on the dotted line? Also, they do not need to see photos as many of them see the damage unfolding in front of their eyes or the damage happening to them and THEY are the ones carrying the casket. 'A person who buys a package of cigarettes is presented with warnings of the health risks. The same principle should be apply to recruiting soldiers.' Do you honestly think that many people don't know the risks involved in whatever job they do ... like policemen, firemen, paramedics, etc? If the risks were a deterrant for not doing their job, we'd all be in one hell of a mess. Danger is even in your own home for Pete's sake. Go read cartoons ... that's more your speed ... and sit on the floor since you just might fall off your chair. Less dangerous for you!
  36. garlick toast from Canada writes: Offshore Directional Driller from Phuket, Thailand writes: garLICK toast you completely missed my point. Try and follow along more closely on the next negative article. Colloquialisms notwithstanding.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    i seek out positive stories about afganistan.the most positive thing i've seen was a presentation by 81 yr.old flora macdonald,doing development work in the villages of the interior.
    i cannot accept ''blind patriotism'' as a rationale for supporting this war and i reject the ''if you only understood'' rebuttal.i do understand.
    to compound this f.'ed up mess with throwing our vets on the scapheap is truly uncanadian.
  37. Free Spirit from Halifax, Canada writes: Northern Princess, maybe you need to re-read the article. It says a 21 year old soldier came back and killed himself because of his injury. It doesn't sound at all like he was prepared for what happened to him.
  38. Hiram 38W from Toronto, Canada writes: It's a common fact that war wounded soldiers are somehow considered as flaws by their countrymen. War prisoners are seen as traitors right upon their release. They are embarassing especially for the fringe who defended the war the most and thus their own armies. I guess, the suggestion is 'If these cowards were men enough they wouldn't get captured by the enemy'. 'If they were good enough they wouldn't get wounded'. Generations of brave soldiers faced this iniquity and some first world war stories are very eloquent in this matter.

    After the war, the wounded, are treated with great despise. In after war France and Germany, lines of mutilated soldiers begged their subsistance in the streets among the despise of their countrymen. They embody something that we want to forget, they are an obstacle to a better life ahead.

    Mr Mitic story is a poignant one.
  39. M. Mark from Victoria, Canada writes: Thank you for an informative article. I support the military and the Afghanistan mission. We owe a lot to the men and women who serve and especially to those who are wounded in action. General Hillier is an outstanding leader and I'm glad to see he puts a priority on seeing his people looked after. Thanks also for identifying some of the companies offering to help woulded soldiers. Knowing that makes it more likely that I will do my business with them.
  40. Stalock Rujulus from Toronto, Canada writes: I) This guy Jody Mitic is a) extremely aware of and b) highly articulate about his user experience with the artificial limbs/prostheses. He could be of good use as a tester/analyst, working with engineers and researchers to produce better technology.

    II) Sure hope he gets what he needs from the system.

    III) The tats are cool.
  41. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Cool tattoos? WAAAY cool! Imagine tattooing yourself with the date that your entire future was destroyed. Neat! And the wheelchair? I bet once MCpl. Mitic finishes pimping it out, it will be the envy of every able-bodied Canadian. As for the artificial limbs... they totally rock. Who wouldn't want one? Or two?

    The future facing the Canadian Forces personnel who are traumatically injured is this: they will be shunned, with eyes averted, by the very comrades that they still hold dear. The society that they believed they served will forget them, with embarrassed haste.

    Caskets are so clean and simple. They appear for a moment or two, some solemn words are spoken, shots ring out in salute, and then they're buried, out of sight and thought. But broken bodies and broken minds... these persist and shame the military and Canadian society alike. The traumatically injured will be cast off; not brutally, such that the victims can at least feel buoyed by righteous anger. But instead, softly and slowly, so that those who extracted the sacrifice from the young men and women can assuage their guilt.

    Were the world a just place, the older men and older generals who from safety send young people out to be broken and killed... every one of them would suffer the same fate. I tell you one thing: war would end overnight.
  42. The NeoCynic from Cayman Islands writes:

    Tsk, tsk.

    You suffer when you believe in things you don't understand.
  43. Jason E from Kingston, Canada writes: Richard Roskell writes:

    'Were the world a just place, the older men and older generals who from safety send young people out to be broken and killed... every one of them would suffer the same fate. I tell you one thing: war would end overnight. '

    I think this line of thinking is endemic to a nation whose idea of operations stems from movies. The idea put forth by All Quiet on the Western Front that 'Soldiers die on the battlefield while Generals die in bed' is an idea that produces better cinematic effect than a maxim to guide rational thought on the subject. Junior officers in the army are expected to 'lead from the front' and the nature of warfare today dictates that this danger is not uniq
  44. Jason E from Kingston, Canada writes: Richard Roskell writes: 'Were the world a just place, the older men and older generals who from safety send young people out to be broken and killed... every one of them would suffer the same fate. I tell you one thing: war would end overnight. ' I think this line of thinking is endemic to a nation whose idea of operations stems from movies. The idea put forth by All Quiet on the Western Front that 'Soldiers die on the battlefield while Generals die in bed' is an idea that produces better cinematic effect than a maxim to guide rational thought on the subject. Junior officers in the army are expected to 'lead from the front' and the nature of warfare today dictates that this danger is indeed being shared by higher ranks as demonstrated by the death of a TF CWO recently. It would be further naive to believe that the TF Comd's vehicle had not been hit by an RPG or two and some media outlets have reported stories to that effect. Therefore, the assertion that old men send young men to war without any thought as to the consequences is not entirely valid (I say not entirely, because, as always, this can not be applied universally). LGen Leslie, for example, was at Knin as a Col when that city was shelled. Presidential hopeful, John McCain stayed in the Hanoi Hilton for years. These two, and many others including Gen Hillier, have been shaped by war. To apply the notion that they put others in danger from safe areas would appear to be improper as they too have been in harms way. It is, and will remain, a fact of life that politicians and generals, of varying military pedigree and who may or may not have children in the military, will continue to do their jobs. War will simply not end overnight. That being said, let's not pity these wounded soldiers. While I can't speak for them, I believe that they neither want nor deserve our pity. Instead, I offer my admiration for their courage to overcome disability and attempt to lead extraordinary lives.
  45. Semi Fully Censored from Bushland, Canada writes: To Jason E... Jason, how many Canadian officers, how many Canadian generals, how many older Canadian generals were wounded or killed in that adventure of ours, in Afghanistan, did you say? I'm gathering statistics, for the record...
  46. Mikey from the GWN ___ from Canada writes: Semi Fully Censored from Bushland,

    'how many Canadian officers'

    ' I'm gathering statistics, for the record...'

    So that's all they are to you - statistics!!

    and you're not even good at that limited research.

    If you care - their faces and names are all at:

    http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/focus/fallen/index_e.asp

    CHeers

    Mikey
  47. Nick B. from Canada writes: Some clown wrote: 'Jason, how many Canadian officers, how many Canadian generals, how many older Canadian generals were wounded or killed in that adventure of ours, in Afghanistan, did you say? I'm gathering statistics, for the record... '

    Well, Captain Matt Dawe, Capt Nichola Goddard, Capt Bill Turner have been killed. Captain Trevor Greene was severely injured in an ambush of a CIMIC detachment's meeting with village elders which started a massive ambush. Capt Manuel Panchana Moya suffered two broken legs in an IED attack on his vehicle which killed diplomat Glyn Berry. Those are the public casualties. General Hillier was very close to an IED strike while outside the wire visiting troops, I believe if I recall correctly it was quite close to where Capt Greene was attacked, he was visiting on of the units involved.

    You might be interested as well to know that a great number of generals and other senior officers (including General Hillier) have sons and daughters in the service who have or will serve in Afghanistan before too long.

    So sorry, what was your point, again?
  48. poop lascoop from Albania writes: when will this nightmare end. We are in there so that the US can be in Iraq. There is blood on our hands.
  49. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: I never count our fallen, and this is a NATO mission, not a Canadian mission, in Afghanistan.

    There were some 84 NATO F-18s hot and loaded in Longueil on 9/11 (joint NATO Canada-US excercise), and they never got the launch order.

    How embarassing...

    It seems that someone was out to lunch at the time (or hiding behind the closet). Bloody cowards. Best Regards.
  50. Nick B. from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd, what the hell are you talking about? Source?

    Longeuil? There is not even an air base there.
  51. Jason E from Kingston, Canada writes: Semi-Fully Censored, I think you failed to grasp my point and provide an excellent example of the knee-jerk, improperly placed indignation to which I was addressing. Are you implying that to provide credibility to the mission, we have to ensure that canadian officers, generals and older generals must be either killed or wounded? Perhaps we should put such a policy in place whereby in order to advance to the next rank, officers will be required to be wounded in action? Would that satiate your bloodlust? Would you consider that at all rational? I can think of at least four officers, an MWO and an RSM who have been killed, does that satisfy your needs for a statistical analysis of senior leadership killed vs other ranks? (the MWO and CWO are not commissioned officers, but anybody in the know, knows their impact on the way operations are conducted and decisions are made). Do we need another Beaumont-Hamel in order for senior officers to be able to make decisions? My point is that this disdain for senior military or political leadership is misplaced. I have provided examples, and there are many more, of leaders who have tasted the bitterness of war. My problem is with people who automatically make the assertion that deployed operations (I use the terminology deployed ops lest we forget those killed and wounded on pk ops) as the domain of old, cigar-smoking fat cats, which I also concede does occur, just not as the rule. The infantry pte on the ground faces a far different situation than the JTF Commander, the latter succeeding due to the bravery of the former, but I assure you that these officers for which you have so much contempt, don't view their troops as 'statistics', so save us the sanctimonious bullcrap. Cheers.
  52. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Nick: Longueil is the principal NATO airbase south of Montreal. Best Regards.
  53. Nick B. from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd, there's no such thing as a 'NATO Airbase', and there is no air base south of Montreal. The only one in Quebec is Bagotville. Who told you this utter nonsense?
  54. garlick toast from Canada writes: there were no interceptors launched in the states on 9/11.they were stood down.
  55. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Nick: I grew up there. Any more questions? Best Regards.

    P.S. If you believe that NATO, or airbases, do not exist, please excuse me while I piss myself laughing.

    Who in the hell do you think keeps you safe in your parent's basement?

    Answer: Probably not your parents.
  56. Nick B. from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd, I serve in the Canadian Forces. If there was an air base in Longueil, a place I've been a few times, I'd probably know about it. Especially if, as you claim, about the same number or more fighters were based there than the Canadian Forces have operational across the country. The location JTF-2's training centre, which one would think would be kept pretty secret, is common knowledge so how on earth could one hide a massive Air Force base with no one knowing about it? Tell you what, hope on to Google Earth for me and send me the coordinates of this supposed base, I'd love to know where it is. In any case, the airspace around my house right now is patrolled by CF-18s based at 8 Wing Trenton. They generally just fly circuits over Lake Ontario, and while they're in the air all the time it's not too common to see them. The squadron that supplies them rotates from time to time, but last time I ran into some of those guys they were from Bagotville. Interesting bunch, fighter pilots. Not like most of the guys at the other Squadrons in Trenton, but nice enough. Anyhow, we're getting way off topic but there were no armed interceptors on scramble standby in North America on 9/11, or any day previous, because there had never before been a perceived need for them. Even if the fighters that scrambled from Selfridge AFB in Michigan had caught up to any of the planes, who would have given the order for them to fire and kill all the passengers on those flights without having the knowledge of what the planes were actually going to be used for. In hindsight it's easy to say the planes should have been shot down and that the cost would have been lower, but no one could have known that at the time.
  57. Jason E from Kingston, Canada writes: Jim Shephard. I am going to have to side with Nick B on this one. I have never heard of any CF let alone NATO airbase in Longueil. Maybe there used to be an airfield there but I am pretty confident that there is nothing there now. CF-18's in QC would be located at Bagotville.
  58. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Nick B: I come from a long line of OBE, OC, and other types that wish you well.

    The problem seems to come from those that tend to not stand down, which I would never do, and they seem to be paying the consequences for these errors...

    In Peru, we just threw 24 of these jerks in jail, as terrorists, and they will not be released anytime soon. Best Regards.
  59. Little Dickie from Beautiful Downtown Port Dover, Canada writes: Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes crap ..yes crap. You do not know what you are talking about. You haven't got the balls to join the Canadian Forces, and if you did, you wouldn't make it pass phase one basic training ....probably end up on your bunk crying for your mother. You must be one of thise heros that sit at their computer and spew out all kinds of garbage which you think is smart ...but we all know it is crap Little Dickie. retired army sgt. 28 years service
  60. Little Dickie from Beautiful Downtown Port Dover, Canada writes: Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Nick B: I come from a long line of OBE, OC, and other types that wish you well.

    Well Jim Shepherd, it nice to see you riding on your families coat tails, what in hell have you ever done, except spew your idiotic thoughts ...get a life man
  61. Lucien Pignon from France writes: Hi everyone,

    I would like to share this link with you.

    http://www.freepressinternational.com/911.html

    If you can go through all the information, you will understand that Canada should not be in Afghanistan, but in the USA impeaching BUSH.
  62. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Little Dickie: If you have ever heard of the Royal Canadian Engineers, or the phrase 'First In, Last Out', you would be truly humbled.

    As a forces man, you would probably agree. Best Regards.
  63. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: Wow, Jim Sheperd has been in Peru way too long. No wait, he can stay there........
  64. Little Dickie from Beautiful Downtown Port Dover, Canada writes: 'Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Little Dickie: If you have ever heard of the Royal Canadian Engineers, or the phrase 'First In, Last Out', you would be truly humbled.' ....Jimmie boy, I spent time in Chilliwack in the 50's. What in hell has that got to do with you, yes YOU, that was your family...not you ....get off their coat tails and do something in your own life. In real life, you probably would cross the street, so you would not have to walk pass a recruiting office. Jim ...you probably don't have the balls to join the military and be a real soldier .....there is more in life then hiding in a South American country eating grapes and drinking wine, while living off a family allowance.... You don't have any credibility on this board
  65. Nicholas B. from Oshawa, Canada writes: Jim Shepherd, I think you need to stop drinking the water there or something, nothing you've been saying lately makes the slightest bit of sense. You've clearly made a completely unfounded statement and caught out, and you don't seem to have the integrity to admit to it. Most disappointing for a man who claims such lineage.
  66. Semi Fully Censored from Bushland, Canada writes: Friends, you will have to pursue that conversation amongst yourselves. I have been censored twice already... Enjoy!
  67. Audra Franklin from Canada writes: A well written article. I'm glad to see that Mcpl. Mitic is speaking, perhaps he will further the cause that Mcpl. Franklin started.
    For Semi - the article is not about PTSD, it is about physically wounded soldiers returning to work. The military knows there is a problem, has annouced they have the funding to double the amount of Mental Health Practitioners, and are in the process of finding them. This is a giant organization and it takes time to make things move. They are working hard to make changes.
    For Nick B. - Capt. Panchana Moya was actually injured on 13December05. Glynn Berry was in my husband's vehicle when he was killed, and that was 15January06.
  68. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: Excellent article - these lads are heros.
  69. Nick B. from Oshawa, Canada writes: Mrs Franklin - you're right - they were two seperate incidents - I had mistakenly conflated them. I did a course many years ago with Capt Panchana Moya, and hadn't heard anything of him in years until reading the article in the Globe about him. I recently attended an event where General Hillier was the keynote speaker and he briefly brought up this subject and made pretty clear that he felt a commitment needed to be made to these individuals to see that they were able to carry on with proper support to the best of their abilities.
  70. Richard Stanczak from Corunna, Canada writes: First, best wishes to the soldiers who have a life to rebuild due to their injuries. Canada needs to ensure that they are given every opportunity and help to succeed.

    Secondly, I noted that the first two soldiers covered were injured by land mines. Were these land mines placed by the Taleban? I don't recall reading anywhere that they did that. Although I would find it easy to believe they did. I could also easily believe that these mines were placed by Soviet forces, the Mujiadeen[forgive the spelling], or some of our NATO allies. Just points out the danger to anyone in an area where land mines are. I'm sure the Afghans have learned that lesson too well.

    And some of the posters here ridicule Canada's position regarding land mines.
  71. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Jason E, thanks for your reply. As I understand it, you're taking exception to my observation that if political leaders and military generals had to 'lead the charge', wars would end overnight. In their defence, you mention a colonel who was in a Croatian town that was shelled, and the observation that, 'General Hillier has been shaped by war.'

    Other than highly isolated cases, there's no person on the planet whose life hasn't been shaped in some way by war. But let's examine General Hillier specifically, as you put him forward as an example.

    General Hillier joined the Canadian Forces in 1973, at a point in time when Canada was long past making war on anyone. For the next twenty-five years, General Hillier and his comrades enjoyed a career utterly devoid of any serious conflict, anywhere. I state categorically that during that period, fewer Canadian soldiers died in the line of duty than did taxi drivers in major Canadian cities. Tell me again how General Hillier is man who's drained the cup of bitterness to the last drop?

    General Hillier eventually took control of a military force in a conflicted area, Bosnia-Herzegovinia- about five years after the violence had ended. But, it must be noted, he also served as Deputy Commander of a U.S. Army corp in Texas for a year or so. I've heard the U.S. military can be quite warlike. Is that what you mean by being 'shaped by war'?

    Please. General Hillier (and all his comrades over the 50 years preceding Afghanistan) enjoyed a life of unprecedented peace and safety. I don't begrudge them a minute of it, either. If it were in my power I would return them to that state in an instant. But to assert that General Hillier and our current political leaders have tasted the bitterness of war is ludicrous. Like MCpl. Mitic, should General Hillier have his legs blown off, then he too will taste bitterness. But, that's not going to happen, is it? General Hillier leads from the rear.
  72. patricia hurlbert from edmonton, Canada writes: To reply to Bob Smith's comment of $100,000 per tour:

    1-You misquoted the article. '$100,000 tax-free salary soldiers earn in years they deploy' To say per tour is very misleading to the public that don't have any idea if this is correct.

    2-My husband deployed in Jan 2006. I don't know where the article got their information from, but that figure is very misleading. We saw nothing near that amount.
  73. Nick B. from Oshawa, Canada writes: Richard Roskell - General Hillier leads from the front in the eyes of those who serve under him - he's been out to remote strong points to visit troops, he's spent a long time in Afghanistan, as ISAF commander and now as CDS. To expect he'd be leading a company into battle on raid in Panjwaii is nonsense, Generals do not ever to that - but to suggest that he has not taken any personal risk is ludicrous. Your post about his exchange posting to III Corps at Ft. Hood is a nice little anti-American red herring. Good try though.
  74. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: Oh Richard S. you are a mean little guy. The CDS has spent a great deal of time visiting soldiers in those forward bases and at great risk to himself. Secondly, I suspect that every trip to Trenton to see another casket reminds him of the bitterness of war. In the end, I would prefer he remain in Ottawa fighting the good fight to RE-equip the troops with modern tools of the trade and represent the CF as he has done so well.
  75. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Nick B., you're a master of ignoring or stating the obvious, as it suits you. General Hillier doesn't lead from the front, and no soldier who isn't terminally blinkered can see that he doesn't. He leads from the front 'in the soldiers' minds'? Oh, please. Even Peter MacKay makes fly-in visits to forward firebases.

    The point was made that if generals and political leaders had to fight wars from the front lines, that wars would end overnight. Yes, WE KNOW that General Hillier and others don't do that. The further point is, were they to start doing it, wars would end shortly thereafter. If you have something to say that addresses that point rather than avoiding it, I'm all ears.
  76. J Lee from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Why should any soldier in the CF trust Hillier's judgement? It has been faulty from the time he was advising prime minister Martin that the war would be a piece of cake and over in a year. And Hillier was totaly absent when Manley said another 1000 troops would solve it. Ask any front line soldier whether we are 'winning', or read the latest reviews by Amnesty or even the UN; their conclusions are a definite no. But Hillier he still thinks that his brave boys will pull one out for his reputation as a great general. A man whose judgement has been consistently wrong and whose comments are so misaligned with reality does not inspired the troops regardless of the visits to the funerals and the 'frontline.'
  77. Nick B. from Oshawa, Canada writes: J Lee - Neither General Hillier nor any other senior officer I've heard of ever said it would be a piece of cake or over in a year. All of them have acknowledged and publicly stated that it would a long process - a generation. General Leslie at one 'Professional Development' conference I was at in 2003 figured 20 years. The CDS knows it will take years, though I don't think he ever pinned it down to a specific amount of time - that's to provide the security for Afghans to develop a functioning state - to allow for education to take hold. The kids finally able to go back to school will be the adults who take it into the future, a more stable and secure function. Until all those 'scumbags' - and he hit the nail on the head with that description are done for, they have to be held at bay so that the future of the country is better assured. That's why troops tend to trust him - because most people who've been there - especially those who have been 2 or 3 times, have seen that there is progress. Manley saw it, the senior staff of the CF see it, so obviously there's reason to carry on.
  78. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: But Richard your point is INANE. Get over it. Nick B - forgive poor Richard he is living in a fantasy world where generals duke it out.
  79. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: Dear J Lee - wow, you are out of touch with reality. Your opinion of previous CDSs must be exceptionally harsh. This CDS has the troops and ordinary Cdns respect on many levels. Since WW2, can you name a better one with a specific example of what was brought to the table for soldiers??
  80. Jason E from Kingston, Canada writes: Richard, First of all, that unnamed Col that you refer to, is now the Chief of Land Staff and possible successor to the current CDS, so let's not downplay his experience. Second, you have the gall to imply that the 50 years preceding Afghanistan was utterly devoid of conflict? I was not made aware that war ceased to exist during this period. Everybody likes to view pk ops in a romantic view of Canadian soldiers handing out chocolate bars to small children but unfortunately, the reality is quite different. Afghanistan is surely a more dangerous theatre of operations, but to say that there was no threat present during the previous 50 years of conflict is to denigrate the experience of those who experienced desperate or dangerous situations at Medak, Knin, Sarajevo airport , the Congo, Somalia, Rwanda, etc, not to mention all those brave souls who died in the service of peace during this period (but I guess we have to apply them to the taxi driver threshold in order to satisfy your ridiculous criterion of how many casualties are acceptable on a given operation). Further, not only has Hillier been outside of the wire a slew of times, the exploits of Maj Bill Fletcher and compatriots, or the well documented instances of RPGs attacks on various TF Comds' vehicles, should indicate the level of shared hardship. These individuals will become the senior leaderhip of the CF Of course, no discussion would be complete without American bashing. I am sure they have quite the brainwashing program at Ft Hood. I refuse to dignify this. Instead, I have already indicated in previous posts, that a pte's job and a gen's job are quite different, but that the Gen, I assure you, cares much more for his troops than you do. I have heard you exclaim about the need to deploy Cdn's to Darfur. What happens if soldiers come back in body bags in that case? Can I then count you amongst the ranks of 'Old men, who from safety, send young men to die'? Probably not.
  81. J Lee from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Thank goodness that at least some of Hillier's current opinions recognize that it will be an long war in Afghansitan, if not endless. But that is not what he was originally telling Paul Martin. Martin was more interest in having military capabilites for Darfur than for Afghanistan. One of his key reasons for committing Canada further to Afghansitan was that Hillier said that it was a simple short task and would not affect Canada's ability to also assist in Darfur. Judgements that have clearly been shown faulty.
  82. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Audra Franklin, your statement that the article is not about Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is incorrect. The article clearly mentions the psychological damage that injured soldiers suffer, and the dangerous consequences.

    'Late last year, Private Frederic Couture of CFB Valcartier provided one chilling glimpse of what it can be like when that capacity is gone. Having stepped on a land mine nearly a year earlier, leaving him with one leg amputated below the knee, Pte. Couture killed himself in November in his Quebec home.'

    And while you're at it, why don't you read again the comments of Pte. Salikin.

    PTSD has been recognized as a serious medical problem for decades. Emergency response organizations in Canada made treatment MANDATORY 25 years ago. My workplace (a non-military, non-emergency organization) made it mandatory in 1990 for employees to take PTSD treatment if they suffered a traumatic event. And here we have the Canadian Forces, whose stock-in-trade is traumatic events, still without a comprehensive program?

    It seems to me that if General Hillier really cared about his troops, he would have insisted that the $1 billion (plus) that's been earmarked for second-hand Leopard tanks should have been directed towards assisting those whose lives have been so badly affected.

    But maimed vets don't take General Hillier out for expensive dinners. They don't wine and dine the Minister of Defence. Thus, when it comes to being taken care of, vets don't stand a chance versus the exciting business of buying military hardware. PTSD isn't sexy. Nor is having your legs blown off. But Leopard tanks? Oh, baby!
  83. Nick B. from Oshawa, Canada writes: Mr Roskell, I'm ashamed to share a country with you.
  84. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Jason E, you've made so many factual errors and voice so many questionable opinions that I may not get around to addressing them all.

    To begin with, you have NEVER heard me advocate sending Canadian troops to Darfur. I would view a move like that with grave misgivings. Your claim is false.

    Nor did I state that the 50 year period prior to Afghanistan was 'utterly devoid of conflict'. Such a statement would be ludicrous. Your claim is again false.

    What I HAVE provided is a rebuttal to your belief that General Hillier has been 'shaped by war,' and has 'tasted its bitterness.' General Hillier spent twenty-five years in the Canadian military before it ever went into a combat situation- FROM THE AIR- and that a role that he took no direct part in. That you would compare General Hillier's experience to that of Senator McCain, who flew in combat and spent years in a Hanoi jail, makes you seem pretty desperate.

    It's a fact: until Afghanistan, the Canadian public and military alike enjoyed an unprecedented period of peace. That's not to say that bullets didn't fly elsewhere, nor that Canadian soldiers weren't ducking them in their admirable role as peacekeepers. But if you're asserting that General Hillier is some kind of experienced war general, one who's really sampled the bitterness fo armed conflict, the facts do not support your view.

    General Hillier may be a brilliant administrator, as today's generals go. He may enjoy great loyalty among his staff. But he's not as qualified to talk about the bitterness of war as is a six-year old Afghan child from the Panjwaii. And as for being 'shaped by war', compared to that Afghan child, General Hillier is a coddled and pampered Westerner just like the rest of us.
  85. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Nick B., you claim you are a member of the Canadian Forces. Yet you have insufficient courage to put your own name to your comments when you disparage members of the Canadian public. Canadians, it must be said, who provide you with a generously supported career.

    If you're an example of what the Canadian Forces produces, your shame is as nothing to what the rest of us feel looking at you. You're an embarrassment to everything that a decent military organization should stand for; a cowardly voice on the internet insulting the people who pay your wages.

    Do our country a favour, Nick. Either take off the uniform we've provided you thus far, or leave Canada.
  86. Jason E from Kingston, Canada writes: Richard Roskell writes (10/03/08 @ 3:10 pm): 'Nor did I state that the 50 year period prior to Afghanistan was 'utterly devoid of conflict'. Such a statement would be ludicrous. Your claim is again false.' however, at 12: 43 pm: 'For the next twenty-five years, General Hillier and his comrades enjoyed a career utterly devoid of any serious conflict, anywhere. ' and 'General Hillier (and all his comrades over the 50 years preceding Afghanistan) enjoyed a life of unprecedented peace and safety.' I do not think my interpretation of your remarks was unreasonable, but you may feel free to clarify for my understanding. Perhaps I have misinterpreted previous statements made by yourself in regards to Sudan, but my impression was that you viewed international intervention (incl Canada's) in Sudan as justified whereas intervention in Afghanistan was not. If you could please clarify where you stand on a potential deployment to Darfur, I would gladly reconsider my thought process. I never made the argument that Gen Hillier was a great war general, but given his experience with deployed ops and the fact that things on these operations were not entirely as rosy as claimed, he, and other senior generals, would have first-hand accounts of the effects of war. Further, your tendency to focus solely on Hillier, indicates that your arguments are predicated about ONE person. I INCLUDED Hillier in my discussion of decision makers who, as part of peacekeeping/peacemaking/peace support ops, have been in harms way. Perhaps, as I don't know what Gen Hillier's exact encounters with violence are, we could replace him with LGen Leslie, whom we know was at Knin during an extensive artillery barrage. Would Gen Leslie then have your OK to deploy troops? My succinct point is that this contempt for senior officers is misplaced. We can't expect that in order to be CDS, one has to either be wounded, suffer from PTSD or lived in a war zone. So can we drop the hyperbole?
  87. Nick B. from Oshawa, Canada writes: Mr. Roskell, I can only say I only comment in my own personal capacity as a Canadian citizen, and in no way in that of a CF anything. My making that statement was only to shut down the ridiculous point made by Mr. Shepherd - it isn't something I just bat around. For what it's worth, my embarrassment for you is quite profound for the fact that you don't seem to have a lot of idea of what you're talking about. You are happy to slag individuals like General Hillier, but with no real substance. You seem to suggest that he puts getting wined and dined by lobbyists over the welfare of the soldiers, sailors and airmen under his command, but most of those people would consider that to be false. Of course, I'm not him,but I have met the man on numerous occasions, and have never got any such impression. The stories I've heard just from my own acquaintances of his conduct in visiting remote parts of Afghanistan, of promoting the welfare of his subordinates, of taking a personal role in working to make sure that soldiers are looked after seem lost on you no matter how they are communicated. My point as just a member of the public is that I would put my faith in decisions made by him, which is more than I can say for most of the politicans I know. I can do that because I know that he's been out to the sharp end, that it wasn't all fancy dinners and so on, and most importantly, that he doesn't just play the game - he actually does his job and advocates for his subordinates.
  88. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Jason E, your point is now succinctly made, but it's still tilting at windmills. I speak critically of General Hillier, as anyone in his position must expect; but I do not speak 'contemptuously' of him. His bio does not list any combat experience. If that's incorrect, please enlighten me. But the lack or existence of combat experience as a more junior soldier is not of any relevance to my observation. Let me state it again: if military and political leaders had to fight wars from the front lines, wars would end overnight.

    You appear to have taken great exception to that remark, as if it was an accusation of cowardice. But it's not: both generals and politicians may have courage. But the fact remains that those who make the decision to send troops into war, do so from a position of safety.

    My description of General Hillier as a man who has neither tasted the bitterness of war nor been shaped by it, other than in the sense that we all are, is reasonable. At least, you haven't said anything to refute it.

    Your transposing my comment about a 25 year period utterly devoid of SERIOUS conflict, into 'utterly devoid of conflict' may have been an innocent misunderstanding on your part. But one common technique that people use in rebuttal is to rephrase the original comment into something different- and obviously wrong- and then attack it. No doubt that wasn't your intention.

    Of course there were serious conflicts happening somewhere in the world; and in some Canadian soldiers played a admirable role in helping to end or ameliorate those conflicts. But that's not the point under discussion. Between the Korean War and dropping bombs on Yugoslavia, Canadian soldiers did not enter into combat anywhere, to my knowledge. Again, please enlighten me if that's not correct. And as a result, Canadian soldiers have long enjoyed a career which is far safer than many roles that ordinary Canadians perform day in and day out.
    • Posted 10/03/08 at 5:28 PM EDT | Link to