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N.B. schools scrap early French immersion

The Canadian Press

Latest comment posted at 12:22 PM EDT 14/03/08

Province takes action in favour of intensive French programs starting in Grade 5 ...Read the full article

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  1. Canadian born Muslim Right Winger from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's funny how the government doesn't implement mandatory French but children later suffer in the real world when they arent allowed to apply for any government job because they aren't bilingual. Either implement mandatory french at a young age so children don't suffer twenty years later or let one language speakers apply for government jobs. It's called discrimination.
  2. Ghetto Dude from Istanbul, Turkey writes: If anyone could post any personal experience about these French immersion programmes in Ontario, I would greatly appreciate.
  3. Craig Scott from Republic of Newfoundland, Canada writes: What is discrimitory is how we force kids to learn french when they should be concentrating on math, science and especially english. How many french people get jobs just because they are french and lack in other skills.
  4. BaB OmimO from Canada writes: I don't speak French.
    I don't have to.

    French is an irrelevant language.

    Spanish, and Mandarin are growing. French in in decline.
  5. Tom Gray from Canada writes: My personal experience with core French programs is that the students learned nothing. They don't speak French. They don't write French. They cannot communicate in French. However they did get a lot of practice in translating English grammar sentences into French and in conjugating irregular French verbs.

    My experience was many years ago so things may have changed. However, I do wonder what the children will really learn in the 'instensive French program'.
  6. Jodie GirlintheWorld from Canada writes: I started in the French Immersion program in kindergarten in NB, and then later moved to Alberta and continued in it until I was 14. I can say from experience that making a switch from being taught completely in French, then going to English was a huge learning curve. I don't think waiting until a child is 11 or 12 and then immersing them in a french learning environment is going to be as successful as maybe they are hoping it will be. Especially if the child is in an english environment at home and with friends outside of school.
  7. BaB OmimO from Canada writes: Ghetto Dude....

    2 families on my street sent their kids to french immersion.

    The kids are functionally illiterate after 10 years.

    They can neither speak french nor do they competently know english. Furthermore, they don't know math, nor chemistry nor etc which were also communicated in French.

    too bad... a generation is lost to French racism.
  8. K M from Canada writes: This move reflects some current research in second language education, which is demonstrating that children benefit from a solid foundation of literacy in their mother tongues to aid in further language learning. Understanding the structure of one language is a key component in the acquisition of additional languages.
    Bilingualism in Canada is vital. By abolishing early French immersion and focusing on late-entry programs, more Canadian children will have the opportunity to develop solid literacy skills in both of Canada's official languages, instead of neither.
  9. JA M from Our Town, Canada writes: ' ...they arent allowed to apply for any government job because they aren't bilingual ...'

    Not true ... and why anyone would want to work for the government is beyond me.
  10. Joe Bloggins from Canada writes: Spending a great portion of your life learning a language that you are likely not going to use for the majority of your life is not all that bright. Especially because it often leads to poorer performance in math and sciences, etc. I know of a number of parents who (dutifully) sent their kids to immersion only to find out that they were falling back in other subjects. They pulled their kids out of the immersion experiment and then had to pay huge sums of money to tutors to pick up the pace in other subjects.
  11. D F from Canada writes: I believe we should all strive to learn a second language, there are all types of benefits to it. I learned french in school and was fairly fluent, I find my fluency comes back when I have opportunities to practice it. I also have some ability in spanish (already knowing french made the learning curve much smaller). While one may not NEED a second language to survive, it is a very useful skill, especially with all the travel people love to do. It opens many many doors for you. I also believe that the earlier someone starts learning language the better. Much of the problem I think is how it is taught. I started in junior high, my classmates had started in grade 4. When we walked into french class there was nothing english there. Sometimes we had to pantomime or draw pictures to get a point across and it created a new opportunity to learn. We read books in french, we watched movies in french, and while most of us were not truly billingual, we could communicate. We were taught to think in the language you are speaking, not to translate from english to french. I am very glad I had to opportunity and look forward to being able to converse with my children as they learn it. We also hope to travel to areas where we can practice our language skills (which really doesn't have to be very far.)
  12. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Children who don't learn French suffer?
    um, OK. Learning a second language is of course beneficial. But there's more to the world than working for the government. If it was possible, I'd have my daughter learn to speak Chinese or Japanese. I think that would probably serve her better in the long run than learning French.
  13. otto von abbatoir from Los Angeles, United States writes: This is all part of the vast Canadian governmental effort to diversify the economy away from the USA and towards West Africa. So what part of Canada requires Spanish immersion as part of NAFTA integration? Nunavut?
  14. Friendly Anglo from Ottawa, Canada writes: JA M from Our Town, Canada writes: ' ...they arent allowed to apply for any government job because they aren't bilingual ...'

    Not true ... and why anyone would want to work for the government is beyond me.

    Well JA M, when you live in Ottawa, it is the cities biggest industry and while anglo's aren't restricted in applying for all the jobs, most of the government jobs are bilingual. Even though it is not necessary.

    I have lived in Ottawa for almost 20 years and it is just getting worse. I hope to leave here in a couple of more years. Can't stand listening to it anymore or feeling like I'm second class because I can't speak French.
  15. J J from Canada writes: My children are in the immersion program in Moncton, NB. They both started in Grade 1. We have suffered through this program for the past 5 years. We tried to get out of the program, for our oldes child, but you had to make a case to the district school board as to why you wanted your child out of french immersion. Then, the board would decide if it was approved. Followed by the threat of having to change schools because the English classes were filled. It is a real shame, almost a disgrace, that in NB, more emphasis, time, and money is put into French language training than into math, science, geography, literature, etc. An added problem is that children of fluently bilingual parents place their child into immersion programs. This skews the grade results for those without french speaking parents at home. As an anglophone, I cannot help my child with a book report. There is absolutely no support for anglophone parent with children in immersion. Finally, the report indicates that English students will have MANDATORY french immersion in Grade 5. Does anyone not find it odd that there isn't any MANDATORY English immersion in the french school system? When study after study shows NB children have the lowest literacy rates in the country, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to discover the reason. More emhasis on language = less critical knowledge. And the children suffer for it. But at least they can work for the government, if they are able to pass the language test!
  16. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: View from the Prairies is that French Immersion is a bust, a boondoggle. School boards get more federal funding for that program so they hype it, but they don't have skilled teachers, at least not here.

    Bad experience with my own daughter years ago, and no regrets about pulling her out in kindergarten.

    And, I was a university English instructor for the first class of students who went k-12 in immersion -- they may have been great at French but these poor kids couldn't write an English sentence!

    One makes a mistake by immersing children in languages other than their mother tongue. Europeans don't do this and many of them speak 2, 3 or more languages.
  17. Offshore Reg from bridgetown, Barbados writes: Man you just had to know the 'no french in my backyard' clowns would be out 'en force' in response to this article. I would write more but speaking to empty heads is a no win game.

    Bon chance Canada.
  18. J B from Canada writes: I really don't know what to think of all this. In a way, I agree with both sides of the argument.

    I was in a late French immersion programme starting in grade 7. I now go to a French-language university and outperform many francophones there, even in literature courses. That being said, what is the point of it? For many people, there may not be one, perhaps. But I personally loved learning French, just for the sake of learning it!

    If you're learning French just to get a boring government job, then I might re-evaluate. That being said I am now in a boring government job.

    Oh dear.
  19. Gen Madore from Moncton, Canada writes: A few points need to clarified in regards to bilingualism and immersion in New Brunswick:

    1. New Brunswick is a bilingual province. Approximately 35% of its population is French. Therefore, learning French is useful in New Brunswick.

    2. The immersion program that is being abandonned produced the highest rate of functionnaly bilingual people in Canada.

    3. The old immersion program was optionnal, not obligatory.

    4. Immersion programs are not the same as Core French programs.

    5. Numerous studies have proven that the more time a person is in contact with a secnd language, the the better he or she will assimilate it.

    6. Bilingualism does not hinder peoples' mental capacities, rather, it develops htem. For instance, a recent comparison of literacy results in Nova Scotian students revealed that students frequenting French schools had higher results both in French and in English literacy than their anglophone counterparts.
  20. ERIC H from Canada writes: A few weeks ago there was a G & M poll about which language people predominantly spoke at work. I don't know what the final results were, but when I voted, it was ENGLISH - 92%, FRENCH - 6% and OTHER - 2%. So tell me again why French is the 'be all and end all?' It would appear that the majority of us speak English.
  21. B Ford from Edmonton, Canada writes: I have often met French immersion bilingual people. I have heard their French, usually passable, occasionally great. Most commonly, I only hear their English as they don't speak French often; they can be apologetic about their French. I studied French only in high school, then studied in it for part of my university. During university, I did French immersion full-time in Quebec for 6 weeks on two occasions and then again studied varous subjects in French in Quebec for a school year. Immersion experiences in Quebec made me more bilingual than the large majority of immersion students I have met. With time and effort, one can overcome the lack of immersion; all the same, I would have loved to have French immersion to get an early start. I believe the only way to achieve anywhere near native fluency is to work and live in that language for a while way beyond the classroom door. Language is a living thing, not just a subject. Also, I assume it must be accepted that some people can learn these things easier than others. Europeans, not being any smarter than us, learn more languages I believe because of their more common and constant exposure to them. I expect to expose my children to a few languages, some early, some later. I will try them in immersion, likely in Mandarin to start because it is 2-3 times more difficult for us than European languages and Edmonton has an excellent programme in that. I hope to expose them to French, perhaps late immersion, and then Spanish later. (Spanish takes half the time to learn or less once you have French). It will help that I have native Mandarin speaking relatives and expect to be able to travel on occasion to places where these languages are spoken so my children can live, play and learn in those languages for some weeks or months. If the kids were not up to learning like this, I'd pull them out; they could try later. Arabic and Hindi would be great too if there were time but one may be interested in other subjects in life.
  22. An Thornton from Canada writes: Kelly Lamrock is wrong. After teaching English as a Second Language and having a bilingual child myself, children who learn another language at an earlier age retain it much more than they do later on.

    Once again, having a Gym teacher running New Brunswick is proving to be to it's detriment.
  23. Typical Toronto Voter from ONLY the Liberals will put again Ontario ahead of the rest of Canada!, Canada writes: In BC, nobody learns to speak even passable French through the school system. Only those with French speaking parents [very rare] end up with any capability. Yet every student is forced to go through the time wasting classes. So many Government jobs, even in BC, are only open to Quebeckers. Not to mention the thousands of school teachers that are airlifted out from Quebec to the West to go through this charade. This is the real reason for the Eastern-driven French agenda.
  24. Lemmy Nothor from Exiled in Barcelona, Spain writes: BaB OmimO from Canada writes: I don't speak French.
    I don't have to.

    French is an irrelevant language.

    Spanish, and Mandarin are growing. French in in decline.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    So according to you, learning ancient greek and latin was not a good idea ?
  25. J J from Canada writes: For all those people that spout off about NB being 'Canada's only bilingual province', I would like to see a copy of our bilingual newspaper, with french and english stories side by side. How about school textbooks that have french on one page and the english on the other? Maybe parents could help their children with their learning. Why is it when you go to a governement website, the first choice you see in FRENCH or ENGLISH to bring you to the appropriate page. Segregation again, right?

    NB is bilingual based on a 30 year law - end of story. Nothing in NB indicates bilingualism. Not street signs, newspapers, magazines, websites, school books, etc. Sure you have the option of one or the other, but don't you have that in every province?
  26. Henry Cunningham from Edmonton, Canada writes: BaB OmimO from Canada writes: Ghetto Dude.... 2 families on my street sent their kids to french immersion. The kids are functionally illiterate after 10 years. They can neither speak french nor do they competently know english. Furthermore, they don't know math, nor chemistry nor etc which were also communicated in French. To BaB OmimO, my experience with French has been completely different. I learnt french and english at a very young age and I know of many people that went through grade school learning french. None of them were functionally illiterate after 10 years. Personally I excelled in all my subjects when I made the transition from french to english, which isn't to say I was struggling when my core courses were taught in French. In fact none of the kids that made the transition with me struggled. So, there is no 'lost' generation, or at least not in Alberta's immersion system. Frankly this anecdotal and far from relevant, french is one of Canada's official languages and will continue to be so well into the future. As such it will be of great benefit to any student willing to challenge themselves by learning a second language, and in Canada it just makes sense to learn french. That is not to detract from any other second language like mandarin and spanish, its just that, outside of english, french is the most widely used language in our country.
  27. Lemmy Nothor from Exiled in Barcelona, Spain writes: If you want kids to learn another language, do it when they are very young, the younger the better.....kids pick up very fast.
    Here in Spain, kids have three languages in school by the time they reach ten years old. Catalan, Spanish, and Fench or English, sometimes both.
  28. B Ford from Edmonton, Canada writes: the biggest reason to start young, even if it is not for immersion, is that one could learn at least the basics of the grammar and pronunciation better at a young age. Even a basic or intermediate level in a language is useful and could form the foundation for more later on. That being said, most people in French immersion retain some English accent but much less than if they start much later. I am told that even children in Mandarin immersion in Canada with Mandarin speaking parents will often have some subtle English accent if they mostly grow up in English speaking Canada. I suspect more and longer travel to countries where these are spoken would help. For most household finance it is either or. It's either more travel or more toys for home: do I hear nintendo, big screen, and bigger cars anyone?
  29. An Thornton from Canada writes: JJ from Canada- Have you been to New Brunswick? All of our street signs are bilingual. All of our services are provided in both languages, even at a municipal level.

    You have no idea what you're talking about
  30. B T from Toronto, Canada writes: I went to late French Immersion in New Brunswick and faired out really well. I loved learning French and thanks to that opportunity I DON'T work in a government job but I make about $7 grand more then the English speaking employees in our office. I passed all the sciences and work in the investment industry, I think my math is great as I probably calculate your tax reciepts and complete audits.
    For people who think learning another language or learning MORE is irrelevant they must have a problem with learning capabilities. Only someone who gives up has such a negative comment to make.
  31. James Eaton from Nepean, Canada writes: 'How many french people get jobs just because they are french and lack in other skills' None that I know of. They have to be able to do the job AND speak both languages, for those jobs that need both languages.
  32. TheWay ISeeIt from Calgary, Canada writes: French immersion is voluntary here in Calgary and you can enter either in Grade 1 or Grade 7. The teachers will tell you that by the end of Grade 9, there is very little difference in proficiency amongst these kids, except that those who entered in Grade 7 have fewer bad habits, in terms of their French.

    The Junior High (grade 7-9) program tends to attract the kids who need an additional challenge to make school interesting. I would not recommend it for any kid who is having trouble with the basics. My son is now in high school and has some subjects in French (Math, Social Studies) and some in English (Physics and options). He actually doesn't seem to notice which language the subject is taught in. I wish I had had the same opportunity.

    Each new language you learn opens up your world a little more. Your insight into culture and history expands and new pathways in your way of thinking are created by the structure and nuances of the language. I've been fortunate to pick up some French and snippets of German, Italian and Dutch along the way. Knowing even a little is an asset and provides a bit of insight into that culture.
  33. PC Montreal from Canada writes: As an Anglophone in Quebec with one child having completed his elementary education and another child who I’ve removed from French immersion, both now in French mainstream programs, I can tell you that French immersion is positively fraught with problems. Here in Quebec, with Bill 101 firmly in place, many French parents are desperate to get their children into an English school any way they can…they realize that the global world of business is primarily conducted in English. However, for those that can find loopholes, or that have an Anglophone somewhere in their recent family tree, put their children into French immersion, in the hope of obtaining a bilingual education. However, the English is almost never introduced until 2nd or 3rd grade and it is expected to be the child’s mother tongue. Not only is it not their first language, but most of these kids can’t put together an intelligible sentence, and the situation only gets worse with time. They hold up the rest of the class, the parents are unable to help their children and the teachers are faced with a whole new teaching dynamic for which they receive inadequate resources. In grade 6, so many of my son’s classmates were unable to grasp the basic English language skills to complete the math problem solving curriculum, the math program in his class was completely switched to French, just to catch up. With 6 years between kids, we have the benefit of hindsight and have decided that the best way for my daughter to receive a complete education is to put her in a French mainstream program. Here’s hoping…
  34. Michelle Foreman from Fredericton, Canada writes: Wow. I'm frustrated. First of all, in response to J J From Canada's question about whether English immersion should be mandatory in French school districts - if you lived in New Brunswick, you'd understand that the English language is omni-present, French people are already immersed, and most are proficient in English.

    Second, New Brunswick is a frontrunner in regards to inclusion - this means that in our regular classrooms, we include all students, even those with learning disabilities. This ultimately affects our national test scores, as the students are chosen randomly to write literacy proficiency tests.

    Finally, Article 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that any person in Canada can receive instruction in their mother tongue if it is an official language, even if it is a minority. This means that all minority French populations have a right to instruction in their language in all provinces and territories, and all minority ENGLISH people in any province (including Quebec) can benefit from this right.

    PS - You are soooo right An Thornton.
  35. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: I agree that learning languages is important. And it's scientifically proven that the younger you are, the more flexible you are to acquire a language. And let's face it: some people are just good at words and languages!

    The many negative immersion experiences should point to a need to build stronger Core programs.

    Lemmy in Spain: the kids you know who manage three languages by the age of 10 -- immersion or high quality core programs? I bet it's core programs, not immersion!
  36. Another Option canada from Canada writes: Ghetto Dude from Istanbul my child is in french immersion in Ontario. Child is in Grade 2 right now. From what we have seen at the school my child attends. The school has 3 grade 2 classes. By the time they get too grade 8 there will be only 1 class full of kids left. so a 70 % percentile range for drop out. So there is a huge drop out rate in Ontario as well. Lots of kids I hear from parents that the Grade 8's have poor grades and hear that they suffer if they go back to regular public school because their english is poor. As well being taught in French for Math and science they are poor in those subjects as well. Also some friends child has some learning problems the schools teachers just recomend they drop out that french program 'it is not for them..' Practicaly no effort is made to help them. So there is a atitude to clear out the problem kids. But there seems to be this this status attached to parrents who's kids go to the schools. It's almost as if the school is like a public funded private school. My Plan is to pull my child out next year. Unless your child is a genius there is no great advantage to sending them. But seems to be allot of money wasted for the 12 kids left in grade 8 from the 50 that start grade 1. It's interesting that NB made the effort to study the drop out ratio. If Ontario proceeded with a similar study they would get similar numbers.
  37. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: The advantages of learning French in Canada are not going to miraculously disappear within the lifetime of your children. The fact that French is not growing percentage-wise in the rest of the world is irrelevant. A quarter of your compatriots in Canada speak primarily French, and will for the foreseeable future. And hundreds of millions of other people in Africa and Europe do as well. Don't forget, the numbers are growing, even if the proportional share is shrinking. And if you can't learn French in Canada, good luck with Chinese or Punjabi.
  38. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: This must be a money-saving move inspired by some very convenient research, since it goes against all accepted principles of language acquisition. Skills for acquiring languages start dropping off at 7 and 8 years of age, and are at their peak even BEFORE school age.
  39. Shane Jordan from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Ok, two comments to make here. First the student that are bad at english and sciences coming out of french immersion are simply kids who slacked off in school and would have done equally poorly in an english only program.

    Secondly, ERIC H, you are actually suprised that the vast majority of people that read an english language newspaper are themselves english speakers? Well, there's one of those slow kids I was talking about.
  40. Another Option canada from Canada writes: Ghetto Dude from Istanbul my child is in french immersion in Ontario. Child is in Grade 2 right now. From what we have seen at the school my child attends. The school has 3 grade 2 classes. By the time they get too grade 8 there will be only 1 class full of kids left. so a 70 % percentile range for drop out. So there is a huge drop out rate in Ontario as well. Lots of kids I hear from parents that the Grade 8's have poor grades and hear that they suffer if they go back to regular public school because their english is poor. As well being taught in French for Math and science they are poor in those subjects as well. Also some friends child has some learning problems the schools teachers just recomend they drop out that french program 'it is not for them..' Practicaly no effort is made to help them. So there is a atitude to clear out the problem kids. But there seems to be this this status attached to parrents who's kids go to the schools. It's almost as if the school is like a public funded private school. My Plan is to pull my child out next year. Unless your child is a genius there is no great advantage to sending them. But seems to be allot of money wasted for the 12 kids left in grade 8 from the 50 that start grade 1. It's interesting that NB made the effort to study the drop out ratio. If Ontario proceeded with a similar study they would get similar numbers.
  41. Michael Bednarski from Toronto, Canada writes: If I try to remember the quote that Mama Carlson said to Dr. Johnny Fever from the TV show, WKRP, 'It's not the plusses and minusses that matter; it's where you place them that count.'

    The abolition of Early French Immersion has nothing to do with the lack of effectiveness in student learning. Students do learn very well in Early French Immersion. Abolition has to do with the economics of learning French and the economics of not having enough qualified French teachers. In general, French Immersion students perform well in French while students in core French do not. French Immersion will suffer even though the government says it won't. What will matter is that core French should improve after a year of Intensive French in grade five. One minus will be replaced by two plusses. That's my theory.
  42. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: French immersion is apparently growing in Toronto. If you look at where the immersion schools are, you'd realize that the biggest programs are in the more affluent neighbourhoods: Humberside, Leaside, Lawrence Park, Malvern (in the Beaches), schools with excellent reputations. The idea that being in French immersion make kids worse at other subjects is pure nonsense. Sure you may not need French in your life but that can be said for most things you learn, even at university. I don't ever recall using diaphantine equations in real life, or deriving logarithmic functions.
  43. Another Option canada from Canada writes: Al B from Toronto you are right the schools have great reputations if the schools are hand picking the kids that make it though to the final grade... as I mentioned before these schools will have 3 or 4 grade 1 classes and only 1 grade 8 class.. I don't have the answers. I guess that is whey they do these studies. Why are most of the kids leaving. In these neighbourhoods you mention it's the new elitist fad for parents..
  44. IT Manager from Hamilton, Canada writes: I have to say that when my wife wanted to enroll our oldest son I was concerned. Now we have 3 kids in French Immersion. I must say in my experience so far it is excellent. My 9 year old is one of the top students and other subjects are not suffering. I am continually surprised at the level of Math they are doing and his French is excellent. They take the same subjects as the english only students so the only difference so far is that half the subjects are in French and the other half in English.

    Maybe we got lucky with the school but we couldn't be happier with the education they are receiving.
  45. Ghetto Dude from Istanbul, Turkey writes: Thank you all for this many responses to my personal question. My native language is 100% Turkish and I have studied in Turkish institutions in Turkey where the language of instruction was English (I mean only English) from grade 3 to BA. (As everybody was Turkish, none of us had any problems with Turkish language. In fact, these were more scientific schools than the standard Turkish language ones.) I personally have never needed French throughout my life apart from the two instances below:
    During my university years I was chronically walking on the verge of dismissal from the school, as my average was consistently at the minimum survival level. If I did not take some French courses in Paris then and did not enroll to the optional French courses the university provided afterwards, I would not have got those 24 credits of AAs (we needed a total of appr. 144 credits to graduate, French's contribution was almost 33%) that literally brought my BA diploma. The French language I never use almost saved my life then.
    Years later, when applying to Canada as an immigrant, I would gather the bare minimum of points to qualify, without this intermediate level of French knowledge that made me accumulate points well-above the passmark. The same French language I never use, takes a family to Canada from here.
    And I personally love that language I never use! Therefore, I shall MAKE my 6-year old son properly learn it. The only question I ask is how to do it without any sacrifice from English. (I would not hesitate to move to wonderful Montreal if only they did not have that strange loi 101.)
  46. Leon Russell from Canada writes: Ryan Fillmore from Sackville, Canada writes: Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, 'Leon, why would you encourage anyone to learn Chinese or Punjabi? ' I was just responding to those many Canadians who dismiss French by saying it would be more useful to learn those languages than to learn French, because they are growing percentage-wise on the planet. It's an illogical argument that assumes that because a language is not growing as a percentage function on Earth, it is irrelevant. (By that way of thinking, we should abandon English as well...) That thinking doesn't take into account that in real numbers the language is still very much alive and growing, and that it can still be a very important and enduring element in a given geographical area.
  47. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: Another Opinion in Canada,

    Sure you may also point out that in high school there are more Immersion kids in grade 9 than in grade 12. But how many kids study grade 9 academic math and then end up in grade 12 calculus? There is a huge drop in number there too. Remember immersion programs are voluntary that means that you can drop in and out on a whim. Some kids may struggle and because it is so much easier to get out than to keep plugging at it, they choose the easy way out. And of course sometimes as with any specialised programs, it may not be for them period.

    As for the programs being an elitist fad, maybe maybe not, those schools have offered immersion for years, decades even. At Malvern for instance almost half of the kids in French immersion commute in from outside the Beaches. In a way the program allows some parents to beat the school boundaries system, not necessarily because they want their kids in French immersion that badly.
  48. J. Anderson from Hamilton, Canada writes: ERIC H from Canada writes: A few weeks ago there was a G & M poll about which language people predominantly spoke at work. I don't know what the final results were, but when I voted, it was ENGLISH - 92%, FRENCH - 6% and OTHER - 2%. So tell me again why French is the 'be all and end all?' It would appear that the majority of us speak English.

    Eric, Eric, tell me you're kidding. I guess if Le Devoir had an online poll for its readers and found that 92% indicated they predominantly spoke French at work, you'd conclude that the majority of 'us' (by which I assume you mean Canadians) speak French.
  49. Liam Baker from Vancouver, Canada writes: BaB OmimO:
    French is most certainly not an irrelevant language. I was in french immersion throughout all of elementary and secondary school and I firmly believe that I am much better off because of it. It isn't for everyone, sure, but it is for most people. It's a great way to teach everyone in Canada about french tradition and the Quebequois (sp?) way of life. The Quebequois are a major part of Canadian society, and the immersion program helps promote this.
    As far as french immersion causing 'illiteracy', that's completely false. Apparently what happened with the kids on your street is an isolated incident. Almost 100 percent of my graduating class in french immersion went on to university or some other post secondary education. How many non-immersion people did? By my estimation, probably about 35 or 40 percent. Learning a second language, much like learning to play an instrument, has been shown to increase learning capacity and promote development.
    You should probably move out of Canada if you think french is so irrelevant.
  50. An Thornton from Canada writes: Michelle Foreman - just to follow up on what you said about the Official Language clause in the Charter, it actually states that those in New Brunswick have the right to have services in both languages and learn in their native tongue.

    Michael Bednarski is right. It has nothing to do with Language, it's about Economics. The problem is, there are several teachers in New Brunswick that will be displaced and eventually lose their jobs thanks to this new 'insight' that Lamrock has embarked upon.

    Having met both Lamrock and Graham on several occassions, I can safely say their both useless and should not be in positions of authority.
  51. Clark The Mighty from Canada writes: God, it will all be so better if Quebec would get over their crack addict like addiction to Federal money and just LEAVE!
  52. J Lee from North Vancouver, Canada writes: I always wonder when people say that learning a second language is hard. And they then say that you have to start early on it if you want any chance of becoming fluent. Not true at all. If you need it or are interested you can learn at any age. And if you happen to work in the area of particle physics then learning French, German and Russian is almost necessary. As well as being rather handy for travelling anywhere in the world. I've met russian speaking Chinese in Laos, german speaking farmers in Argentina, and french speaking dipolmats in Saudi. Anyone here who thinks that learning a language is tough should find you what tough is. Try and really understand Einstein's general theory. Now I don't expect that many kids will ever want to do that, but lots of them sure have the potential to be prime minister, a military officer, a judge, a senior bureaucrat or an executive with a foreign based multinational company or NGO. And I wouldn't want to deny my kids those opportunites because I somehow thought a language was a bit hard.
  53. Martin Henri from Ottawa, Canada writes: First and foremost people, let's not forget the context here.. NB is an officially bilingual province, the only one at that in this great country, and Canada is an officially bilingual country. Why is the province bilingual? Because 1/3 of its residents are francophone. Why is this country bilingual? Because 1/4 of its residents are francophone. These are strong minorities that are substantial in size. Additionally, let's not forget that Canada was founded when 2 linguistic groups came together... My point is: it starts by accepting the fact that bilinguism is here and it's here to stay! Secondly, It is clear that something needs to be done in the English language school system to increase the number of bilingual graduates. The numbers are there to prove it, less than 20% of graduates are bilingual. However, the same cannot be said about the french language system as the vast majority (about 70%) of students that graduate are bilingual, so let's not drag the french schools along into this whole mess. In my opinion, until Anglophones in NB accept bilinguism, the current situation won't change regardless of the changes government makes. Also, I can't see how starting later and spending less time learning French will improve the situation... I say let's work on our willingness to learn, shall we? Ti-Acadien originaire du NB...
  54. J. Anderson from Hamilton, Canada writes: I was in French Immersion in Ontario in the 1980s. I recall my parents had concerns about the quality of the resources available in our classrooms, etc., but the fact is, it provided a great foundation. I continue to be fluent in French, and have a decent accent, even though I actually left French Immersion after Grade 6 (see below). There are some flaws in the approach taken in the programme, but overall, it does the job very well. Early, abundant exposure is the key; a typical child practically has to force herself NOT to learn a language in which she is immersed. 'Core' teaching - i.e. an hour a day (or less) - is not nearly as effective, and unfortunately it really has become an expensive boondoggle that desperately needs to be reworked. Of course, it certainly doesn't help for children to be told by their parents not to worry about putting effort into Core French classes, because they don't 'count.' I suspect that some of the contributors to this forum are precisely that kind of parent. Also, for those who point out that many students drop out of French Immersion programmes, you are ignoring the fact that as early learners, those students will still retain some of the knowledge and skill that they have already acquired, both for French in particular and language-learning in general. Please note, too, that not all students drop out of French Immersion because their parents are dissatisfied with the programme. They may move to a new district without a nearby French Immersion programme, or (as was my case) switch to a different kind of programme that can't be combined with French Immersion. Dropping out in high school is not surprising at all, since students may want to take advantage of the greater variety of course options available to them in English. By that time, it really doesn't matter that much - their innate knowledge of French was developed years earlier and will stay with them.
  55. Martin Henri from Ottawa, Canada writes: Thank you 'Clarke The Mighty from Canada' for such an insightful portrayal of your views on Canada, and especially, Canadian unity. First, if Quebec seperates, our Canada won't be so mighty. Second, wrong province. Third, wrong issue: Acadians aren't the same as Quebecers!
  56. Dennis sinneD. from Calgary, Canada writes:

    My youngest son tried late French immersion. He, we and his teachers felt he was a great candidate as he had the desire and is typically an A-B student.

    Like it's been said above, all his grades began to drop off. Though he was learning French, all his academic courses were suffering severely.

    He pulled himself out after 1.5 semesters.

    I think the only way late immersion can work is if at least one parent is fluent in French and that parent is willing to bust-a-nut trying to help them learn the language. They should also be doing it for years before they start in the immersion classes.
  57. Mark Stone from Detroit, United States writes: The research is garbage and piece-mealed. The kids drop out of these kinds of programs by high school, even middle school because they are already fluent by that time. The kids also, for the greater majoriy, want to be like their friends, many of whom are probably not intensive French language learners or French speakers at home. There is a reason to start these programs as early as possible, it's brain plasticity. 5th grade is at about the very early dawn of brain hardening, which begins its process around puberty. The real goal of this switch away from immersion is to give anglophone teachers that want to 'teach French', who are otherwise poor French language models, to find employment in those grade levels that are rather less stressful than the elementary setting. N.B. has something else up it's sleeves in this education matter and this sound-bite piece of research is cover. I taught through French immersion for 12 or so years; my students were FLUENT in reading and aural comprehension by 5th grade - their writing was full of errors but so is the writing of any French child at the same levels - I have seen this as well - I have contacted ministers of education in Alberta and Ontario about matters relating to immersion, language acquisition research, which include findings that immersion accelerated general language and reading development both in the first and in the target languages, and even on the impact of L2 on mathematics acquisition on the more advanced levels. This is a move back to the 50's when language education was meant for more 'mature' students. Grrrr.... 5th grade is late for any language, unless all you're looking for is 'Bonjour ! Commenet ca-vas, Helene?' 'Merci, Raoul. Je vais tres bien - et toi?' ooof....The immersion experience DOES NOT negatively impact language development in the native language - over time, it accelarates above their monolingual peers.
  58. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Martin Henri from Ottawa, Canada

    you can't force people to want to learn a language. And I'd say with immigration, the percentage of people speaking french in this country is actually going to decrease
    think about this - what makes more sense in Vancouver - speaking French, or Chinese?
  59. Banofee Pie from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow Ryan, you're not much of a racist, are you? Hope you managed to stay on your side of the country. Tech support my as*. What are you 'supporting' exactly with a crummy attitude like yours?
  60. BaB OmimO from Canada writes: Latin and Greek are valuable. French is a language of oppression. It is the language of a racist separatist fringe.

    French is also irrelevant... ... post in french and see how many replies you get.. duh?
  61. Ron Hartlen from Canada writes: Picture a student trying to learn new material and concepts in other subjects, being instructed in a language other than native tongue. How could this not impede their learning somewhat?
    Don't you need good command and a good comfort level with your first language to grasp and understand new things, particularly concepts of any depth and complexity?
    Several posters above seem to have confirmed this from their first-hand experience.
  62. Ryan Fillmore from Sackville, Canada writes: Banofee Pie from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow Ryan, you're not much of a racist, are you? Hope you managed to stay on your side of the country. Tech support my as*. What are you 'supporting' exactly with a crummy attitude like yours?

    Racist, no... just not willing to roll-over for immigrants who think Canada is a great place to destroy with their annoying cultures and languages.
  63. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: Ron Hartlen, I don't have to 'picture' it I've been there and I've seen many others go through it. That's the beauty of it all. It works.
  64. Banofee Pie from Toronto, Canada writes: Ryan, annoying to YOU maybe because you're ignorant and racist.
  65. Martin Henri from Ottawa, Canada writes: Mr. Derek Holton: I agree that it's hard to force someone to learn a second language but, as a believer in Canadian bilinguism, I think you should at least actively try to encourage it by putting the right tools in place for them to learn, especially in the province of NB! And that's not taking anything away from the hundreds of foreign languages who contribute to make Canada a better, more diverse country. I actually think we should try to learn more languages. But the fact remains that Canada is a bilingual country because of its founders and that part of our history will never change. Sometimes, Anglophones AND Francophones in this country seem to forget that. A person can choose to not learn the other official language as it is their personal choice. However, I hate to see those same people, later on, complain how they can't get a job in NB because they're not bilingual!
  66. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: Marc Stone de Détroit, Je suis d'accord avec vous : N.-B. essaie de passer une vite avec ce changement de politique. Comment un revirement aussi important pourrait-il être décidé sur la foi d'une seule étude comme semble être le cas ici? Ça n'a pas de sens.
  67. Andrew E from Canada writes: Canadian born Muslim Right Winger from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's funny how the government doesn't implement mandatory French but children later suffer in the real world when they arent allowed to apply for any government job because they aren't bilingual. Either implement mandatory french at a young age so children don't suffer twenty years later or let one language speakers apply for government jobs. It's called discrimination.

    I can tell you're from Ottawa.... you think a government job is the pinnacle of acheivement.

    You can work anywher in Canada with just English, except for the most bigoted province.
  68. An Thornton from Canada writes: As a former ex-pat that lived overseas for a number of years, one of the first questions I got when I said I was a Canadian was 'do you speak French?'. People from other countries are in awe over the fact that we have two official languages and have the opportunity to learn both- some of us becoming fluent.

    It's a shame that they're tampering with this.

    I spent some time in Japan by the way, and have absolutely NO INTENTION of learning Mandarin.
  69. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: BaB OmimO from Canada writes: 'Latin and Greek are valuable. French is a language of oppression. It is the language of a racist separatist fringe. French is also irrelevant... ... post in french and see how many replies you get.. duh? '

    More replies than if you post in Latin, in the unlikely event you write Latin. Duh.
  70. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: Hé les accents fonctionnent!
  71. A Dad from Regina, Canada writes: Firstly, French is spoken by 9 million people in Canada. When there is nine million chinese or hindu speakers, then we can talk about making another language akey component of our kids identity. If there is to be a true national discourse, we need to give our kids the chance to access each others language and culture.

    Secondly, very young kids learn a second language very quickly. My own daughter is only 2 and already speaks both languages fluently, with Mom and Dad speaking French at home and Saskatchewan providing the immersion :) My nieces and nephews can already boast a conversational French after only a couple of years of immersion. I fail to see how learning a language could be interpreted as taking something away from our kids...Learning as an adult is so hard that we owe it to them to give them the most skills we can and then let them choose what they want to keep or giveaway at a later time in life.

    I find the problem is usually adults projecting their own fears-ignorance of not being able to speak a second language on youth. Let them learn, and give it a try yourself, you'll see it's not that bad, it actually deepens your understanding of your first language. There is a saying that goes you never fully understand the intricacies of English until you learn French !

    Learn one, two, three and four languages, give your kids the tool to be whatever they choose to be.
  72. Martin Henri from Ottawa, Canada writes: BaB OmimO from Canada: have you tried writing in one of the many Francophone newspapers in Canada to see if you'd get a reply? How about you try l'Acadie Nouvelle and visit the coast of the province of NB this summer. Oh well, I guess in your world, a quarter of the canadian population is irrelevant. Ryan Fillmore, read your comments again and think about it for a second... You're not racist? Give your head a good shake...
  73. An Thornton from Canada writes: Andrew E from Canada- sorry to say that's not true. It's extremely hard to get a job without French in Nova Scotia (which has an Acadian population as well) and New Brunswick. Nobody's being a biggot.

    Because the Northern half of New Brunswick speaks French only, they deserve to have someone speak their language when they call Service New Brunswick or Service Canada.
  74. Ghetto Dude from Istanbul, Turkey writes: BaB OmimO, je fais ce que vous dites, on va voir tous ensemble. Alors, combien y a-t-il des gens entre nous qui veulent envoyer un message en français?
  75. Martin Henri from Ottawa, Canada writes: Je vais rien dire de mauvais contre BaB OmimO mais plutot ceci: Vive la langue francaise au Canada! Vive l'Acadie! Vive le Nouveau-Brunswick et Vive le Canada... rien que des des choses positives (translation: nothing but positive things!)
  76. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: Bab OmimO est un petit minable indigne d'attention.
  77. Brian Lilly from Canada writes: To all of the BIGOTS out there who criticize French and bilingualism in N.B., FRENCH is NOT forced down our throats!! I can bet that almost all or all of you do not and cannot speak FRENCH because you simply lack the intelligence and the backbone to try to learn and understand FRENCH. Canada will never be at peace internally because of this, and these inflammatory letters only serve as fuel to the Quebec separatist-independance movement. Shame on you!!!
  78. Wild Bill from Canada writes: Now if only other provinces will follow. Basically from what I've seen kids learn very little in the programs. Many transfer back to the English system when they are 10 or so and they can't handle the English program so they're basically lost. Many of the job posting I've seen are for bilingual people with francophone backgrounds which rule out anyone who has taken the immersion programs. No need to worry anyway. In Canada within the next few decades with the way we run our immigration laws English and French will be almost extinct.
  79. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Canada writes: J'Avais déjà envoyé qq chose en français plus haut. Mais merveilles des merveilles, c'est la première fois que mes accents ne virent pas en bouillie pour les chats.
  80. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: Whoops, j'ai parlé trop vite.
  81. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: Michelle Foreman from Fredericton, you like to quote the Charter of rights. Why don't you tell us how many of those rights are being broken by Bill 101 in Quebec
  82. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: 'Michelle Foreman from Fredericton, you like to quote the Charter of rights. Why don't you tell us how many of those rights are being broken by Bill 101 in Quebec ' The Supreme Court says none. When Law 101 was first put in they said there were rights that were not being respected. Quebec tweaked its laws and they are fine now.
  83. Banofee Pie from Toronto, Canada writes: I can't fathom why anyone would NOT want to pick up another language, French, Mandarin or Russian. Nothing is sexier than a guy who can speak more than one language. I'm re-learning French now and love it. I loved it when I took it in school too, if for no other reason than it's something new, it's a beautiful language (although flippin' complicated with all the different rules for regular and irregular verbs!) and it enhances our lives, travels to other places, and conversations with people in those places.
    Learning a new language opens up a whole other world. I do agree that for some people it is hard, but it is not impossible. You have to have the will, determination and passion for it, and it certainly helps to further immerse yourself by going to a place where it's spoken all the time and living there.

    I adore Montreal, it's one of my favourite cities...but I have heard Quebec is a difficult province in which to live and work if your last name is not French. That's a shame because it's a beautiful province. I would totally move there if I could be confident that I would feel welcome.
  84. Better to light a small candle than to s