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Talking to the Taliban

GRAEME SMITH

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 9:40 PM EDT 09/04/08

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  1. Bill Tweezer from Canada writes: Intresting.
  2. siren call from Canada writes: This looks like an interesting series.

    Thank you Globe&Mail.

    I've only watched the first two but am puzzled by the 'Taliban' saying they want a Muslim leader, though it doesn't have to be Mullah Omar.

    Isn't Karzai, Muslim? Isn't the country, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan? Isn't sharia law largely in play?

    Looking forward to getting time to watch more of these capsules.
  3. I R from White Rock, BC, Canada writes: Graeme,

    I think you have undertaken a very important project, boldly and courageously. I think it is a project that had to be done and I know that some will appreciate it. Others will condemn you for it.

    The enemy has a face. The enemy bleeds. The enemy is human.
  4. Tom Pankratz from Langley, Canada writes: Thank-you for publishing the Taliban perspective.

    We have been at war with the Taliban and only now am I reading anything from the Taliban perspective. As I suspected their motives to fight have to do with being invaded, their customs violated and friends and family murdered... something we might relate to if we were invaded, killed and displaced. Just why are we killing these people? Please someone tell me it is not because the Taliban make their women wear a veil.

    Please continue to publish material that shows the Afgan's perspecitve. You may be able to stop us from more killing.
  5. Ryan Sadler from Boston, United States writes: Great Article. I really liked the multi-media format, very web conscious.

    It also made me proud that our troops are there and that our government is sticking to its principles and also helping a nation battle power-hungry warlords and zealots
  6. Free The West from Free the West, British Columbia, Canada writes: This 'story' is a deliberate baldfaced insult to the courage and sacrifice of our Canadian military personnel, in order to pursue a leftwing agenda of undermining the mission in Afghanistan.
  7. Martin G from Canada writes: Well, I am sure the average Canadian/American don't know where Afghanistan is. Just 'somewhere in the Middle East'.

    I am more scared of the Americans than of these guys.
  8. Barry Pither from White Rock BC, Canada writes: Blowback is the consequence of policy not too dissimilar from the one we relish today. The Taliban were actively fostered by the Pakistani Secret Service, their predecessors touted as heroic while armed by the Americans in the 1980's during another incident of zealous missionary work called stopping the Soviet threat. Moreover, no one seemed terribly concerned in the US when the Taliban took over Afghanistan in the mid nineties. On the contrary, their leaders were soon on their way to UNOCAL Oil in Texas, feted while discussing a proposed pipeline from Central Asia. Diplomatic circles could easily live with an Islamic dictatorship which legally persecutes women since the model is Saudi Arabia.

    And it is not even certain the Taliban knew much about an attack on the World Trade Center, as Gwynne Dyer, a former lecturer at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, speculated in an article. If anything Bin Laden probably suspected the Kabul government as being a little too cozy with the idea of rich pipeline revenue and civil stability as the necessary prerequisite. Why would the Taliban, already in battle on numerous domestic fronts due to tribal warfare, further put their survival in question by bringing the wrath of the Americans on their doorstep? If this seems far fetched then try remembering the whoppers we were fed as gospel after 9/11 and then you might consider this a sane argument.

    Sydney Harris, an American journalist of the last century said that ''terrorism' is what we call the violence of the weak, and we condemn it, 'war' is what we call the violence of the strong, and we glorify it.' The faces of uneducated men in black turbans raises the alarm bell within while shivers down my back best describe my reaction to those who sit in boardrooms and at intelligence desks planning the next righteous slaughter of innocents which serves the company or the national interest. Think Latin America.
  9. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: Ex, and -- dare I say -- tremists.

    Don't believe in -isms!
  10. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Interesting format with the use of video and text at the side. Nice touch. Good to see some investigative journalism in a very tough and dangerous area. Bravo for that!

    Good stuff G&M-big thumbs up!

    So what did we learn?

    Taliban is not Al Qaeda-CHECK.
    Taliban are NOT going to invade Canada and fight us here-CHECK
    Taliban cannot FIND Canada on the map-CHECK
    Taliban dislikes US corrupt puppet government-CHECK
    Taliban does not like foreigners to occupy their land-CHECK
    Taliban people want foreigners off their land-CHECK
    Taliban want their own Islamic government-CHECK
    Taliban doesn't want porno, poppy fileds, or alcolol-CHECK
    Taliban are mad because their people die from US bombers-CHECK

    Original Mission 2001-2002: Find Bin Laden who reportedly caused 9/11 and destroy the training camps of the terrorists to help avoid future attacks.

    Reality 2008: 6 years later with AT LEAST 3 more years to come:
    Occupation, nation building at a cost of $BILLIONS of dollars with no end in sight, mounting death toll of Canadians and Afghans, and support of a corrupt and scandalous US backed puppet government.

    Make your own conclusions!
  11. King Friday from Halifax, Canada writes: Now that was interesting, looking forward to the rest of this series.
  12. The Guinea from mississauga, Canada writes: A very interesting article. There was alot of information and very little propoganda. I feel we should just get out of there and leave them to run their own country. I would not want my son to die in this conflict.
  13. Stephen Best from Toronto, Canada writes: Truly brilliant journalism. My deepest thanks for this. No matter what one's position might be on Canada's role in Afghanistan, only good can come from a better understanding of the Taliban.
  14. Dan Baril from Oakville, Canada writes: This is an interesting piece of journalism/research work; outside the box for the Globe and Mail.

    One suggestion. Code and tabulate the 20 question responses from the 42 interviews. Sampling methodology and margin-of-error issues aside, the aggregated results might nevertheless be worth looking at in tabular form.
  15. Matt Bowen from Canada writes: Who are better fighters, French Canadians or English? Do you know who is Dion? Harper?

    Is this some kind of spoof of 'talking to americans' or something?
  16. Richard Soley from writes: Interesting but without a data base for comparitive analysis it is just a one sided story. Charts of how many suiside bombers indicates a increasing failure rate but shows only that the number of atttacks have increased, is that desperation or planning? Charting air attacks without a base line could be anything, the numbers are without data. What does come across is the pattern of ignorance and information by memory rather than any knowledge.The report tells the story only of the Taliban and there are no conflicting interviews from those that might feel otherwise about the NATO forces. The need for further information here is necessary to form any kind of an opinion about the effectiveness of the ISAF efforts. While this reporting is fascinating and insightful it has no meaning without a comparable study of those who we as the 'west' say we are helping. Do the people in Byumran whose Budda's were blown up want the Taliban to return? Do the women of Kandahar want the Burka or the lack of freedom the Taliban bring, do the Children want the schools? We as the public hear very little of the efforts other than conflict that the NATO forces engage in. THe reporting of medical efforts in vaccinating of childern may not sell newspapers but is as important to understanding this mission as is talking with a faceless Taliban. Where is the indepth interview of a Canadian or Dutch soldier and his feelings on Afghanistan? Where is the in depth reporting on the feelings of Mr. Amir average on the steets in Kandarhar and the shopkeepers, school teachers, doctors, taxi cab drivers, house wives etc? Untill we have that story this is a one sided piece of information. But still very interesting!
  17. Oliver Surtain from Toronto, Canada writes: Only the the G&M (well maybe the Star as well) would sit down for tea with a bunch of barbaric crazies who, if they ruled the world, would have it so no media organization would be allowed to operate unless they championed the virtues of Mohammed, birkas, and 72 virgins 24-hours-a-day. I'm wondering, was Jack Layton the head 'researcher'?
  18. Grant Bowen from the new west, Canada writes: This is terrible journalism! We need to be able to demonize and impersonalize these people so that we can raise the ire of canadians to keep fighting without negotiations. This is not going to help at all!
  19. Dave LeBlanc from Canada writes: Hopefully when all the segments have been shown, we can also have a printable transcript of the whole presentation.
  20. James McGillawee from Oshawa, Canada writes: I think that you, Graeme Smith, have done us all a favor by taking this approach to get the true flavor of what the Taliban think. Now can this process be used in reverse, modified if necessary, to get the message to the Taliban types that we, the rest of the world, are not going to go away, and that if they persist in producing more and more opium/heroine, we the people of the free world have it in our power and motivation to remove their poppy fields from being able to produce anything. If they do not produce food for their people instead of drugs these semi-arable lands can be lost for a generation or more by severe means. Or in other words, change is in order or suffer the consequences.
    It is important that they learn from history and that they not be allowed a victory by negligence or resignation on our part, but we also need to provide them with an alternative means of subsistence on the other hand. This is not Viet Nam, nor Korea, either. They could and can all be rounded up, disarmed, and exported to Northern Alberta to supply labor for jobs in the oilsands area that needs laborers for menial jobs that are not being filled. From what I see on TV lately, they are in the midst of Spring over there and we are still in the depths of Winter here to the degree they apparently don't experience.
    Finding and transmitting information does not of itself constitute Wisdom. That takes experience, ie. living it. If we mean business in Afganistan it is time to ramp up the intensity and the methods. They do not deserve democracy until they earn it and want it. I say we should make them want it very intensely!
  21. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Graeme Smith, I've been a strong defender of your reporting from Afghanistan, and my belief in you has been amply rewarded. This is the story that Canadians need to see.

    Canada has unleashed its modern military capability- replete with Leopard tanks and our ally's Apache attack helicopters- against an impoverished, uneducated, tribal society in a primitive land. To a man, our adversaries have no quarrel with Canada; they don't even know where it is on a map. They fight solely for their own land, and their own way of life. That any civilized human being could countenance making war under these circumstances beggars credulity.

    Kudos to Graeme Smith for providing this information. He has done an inestimable service for our country. I know of no better journalism coming out of Afghanistan.

    Look at the truth, Canada, and act accordingly.

  22. Repeatedly Censored from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Just watched the main video. I enjoyed the poetry and the sense of humour. The Globe ought to be congratulated for presenting a documentary entitled 'TALKING to the Taliban'. I am so grateful, I wish I had no critical comment to make. But that is not the case. Here are what I think are essential questions that come to my mind: 1. Why did it take years before developing this basic curiosity, i.e. that of knowing who the 'enemy' was? 2. What kind of journalism is it, that accepts, for years on end, to 'report' that x number of Taliban were killed, if it is so difficult to even define what a Taliban is, let alone to determine who is a Taliban? (reminds me of the word 'Vietcong' of earlier times! -- anybody was a Vietcong, so that more were reported killed than the total number of Vietcong that ever existed...) 3. What kind of journalism do we have, that makes the truth known mostly after the fact, after the horror, the war crimes and the crimes against humanity? 4. What is it that prevents journalists from wanting to know the truth, seeking it and communicating it, BEFORE it is too late, BEFORE it makes so little difference to the victims whether it be known or not? 5. Why did this documentary not come out (even in part), before the latest vote in Parliament on whether the so-called 'mission', in Afghanistan, should be extended? So even though I hate to spoil the show, and no matter how grateful I am that the truth on Afghanistan seems to begin coming out, at last, I cannot not ask myself those questions. I think it is appropriate that other Canadians read that one of their compatriots does ask himself those very questions. This is a democracy. We need the truth, no matter what. Lies and deception are the way to no future. As the cliche (accent) has it: 'Only Truth can and will set us Free!'
  23. S G from A Happier Place, Canada writes: This feature is a great idea. Afghanistan is an enigma - even for many of those who have visited it, studied it or worked there - and this survey will shed some light. I hope governments are paying attention to this, too.
  24. Harper makes mimes and clones out of M.P.s that he pays $ 125 /hour from Canada writes: GRAEME SMITH

    Globe and Mail Update

    Latest comment posted at 3:19 PM EDT 20/03/08

    Could you possibly do one article on Tiger Team or censorship to help me understand our ' rulers ' ? Enjoyed immensly the little tidbits on the war when you were fully censored . i.e. your casual mention of the Spin Boldak border crossing .
  25. Ken DeLuca from Arnprior, Canada writes: Graphs well presented although many more stats will likely be forthcoming as the series continues.

    The text to the right of the video screen was most informative and, along with some of the interview clips, gave a more meaningful glimpse into the struggle than anything I have read so far either from our government or even the literature on the subject such as Judith Stein.

    It continues to confirm my grim view of the war and its potential for resolution.

    Ecxcellent journalism so far.
  26. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Interesting. The G&M rarely writes about ANY progress that Canada and NATO are making in Afghanistan. But hey, they have no problem reporting on those Canadians that have died there or the claims of Taliban prisoners. Oh, and they'll bend over backwards to get a 'unique look at Canada's front-line opponents'. In fact, they have multiple interviews, surveys and videos to show their efforts. To bad they didn't put those resource towards letting Canadians know that there is in fact good things happening over there.
  27. NA E from Buckhorn, Canada writes: This is wonderful! Thank you so much for doing this. This is what true journalism is all about. How refreshing to find it in the Globe and Mail when most of the other news journals just spew out pre-digested journalistic pap!
    This first step to peace is understanding.
  28. Zhimmy Kanata from Canada writes: I was very interested in these interviews because when I took W.W.II in University they put a lot of emphasis on studying how the war was reported. Whether it was accurately reported, how much control reporters were given and how much each side used propaganda. I have to say that I am quite disappointed with many of these videos. There is no reason that they couldn't have been better recorded both to inform the Canadian public but also for future generations. Take for example in clip No. 41. The man obviously has something profound to say and has quite a few opinions on the subject unlike other members of the Taliban. He comments quite a bit on many of the more interesting questions and even starts to monologue. Tragically both for Canadians now and for historical records much of the audio is labeled as [UNCLEAR]. So the question you have to ask as an Academic and free thinking person. Is just how honest is the Globe and Mail being or are they being censored by the Government? Why is he being censored? If its just sloppiness on part of the reporter and the Globe. Then quite frankly I think they have done a travesty to the Canadian Public! With all the money the Globe has I am sure they could have sprang for a better mike!
  29. M M from Canada writes: Decent attempt at summarizing the situation in Afghanistan. I found some of the questions irrelevant to the Taliban (who is Stephane Dion? seriously? Where do French-Canadians live in Canada?!). This just shows the inflated sense of importance Canada thinks it has there, but I applaud the courage of the entire team (Graeme and his nameless Afghan collaborators) in attempting to talk to the regular Taliban fighters. The fact that they don't make the distinctions we do (country-wise, people-wise, motivation-wise) for being in Afghanistan should be the driving force for a new and more effective strategy in Afghanistan. And let's stop focusing on Canada's role, whether we like it or not we are part of the entire operation there, and are obviously indistinguishable to the regular people.
  30. Kathleen Degelder from AberdeenUSA, Canada writes: Pretty difficult___'rough outline'
  31. tired horses from Canada writes: For a moment there I thought I'd logged onto Newsday, or some other U.S. rag.

    Sorry to see this on your front page. We are not American, and it's bad enough our leaders don't quite get that without our formerly preminent media following suit.
  32. Heidi Hartmann from Burlington, Canada writes: This is fantastic. Love to see more of this type of journalism and reporting.

    Very creative. Very interesting. Well done.
  33. Linda Youdelis from Windsor ON, Canada writes: This looks to be a brilliant series. I especially like that I can view the interviews to get a feel of the situation. Congratualtions to Graeme Smith for the concept and implementation, and the Globe and Mail for the investment.
  34. Jacquelin Ouellette from St-Gabriel de Brandon, Canada writes: It is very clear that these people are endoctrinated. A big public relation and information campaign is a must.

    As a french Canadian, I am upset by the question -who are better fighters, English or French fighters-.

    I dont know what was the objective with this question but I find it displaced and divisive.
  35. No Left or Right Just Neutral from Canada writes: Wow... it is been a while since we got a in depth look into the Afghanistan situation without any propaganda. Looking forward to watching the other videos.
  36. Zaphod Beeblebrox from Regina, Canada writes: Okay, I know the NDP left wing types will skewer me for this, but why are we talking to our enemies at all? In the last war did we hold discussions with 'individual Nazies' to learn what motivates them?

    Get it through your heads people. Al Queda and the Taliban are not interested in negotiations (until a company of Marines surrounds them), and they are not interested in living in peace and harmony with us in some magical global village. They simply want to destroy us! They want to destroy us, the infidels, our democracy, our beliefs and values. We might be able to live in peace and harmony with them when we start dressing our women in bhurkas and pray towards Mecca 5 times a day.

    God bless our troops, and let the name calling begin.
  37. D Epp from Vancouver, Canada writes: After watching a dozen of these videos, it's clear that these people don't care where the invaders are from, but if they are non-Muslim, they will be fought against - for as long as it takes.

    Really, what is our purpose there? What can we hope to gain? How many years must we fight - and to what end? Do we even have a goal?

    Listen to some of these people: they believe that Karzai is a 'slave' to the Americans and they will continue fighting. Poppies are a source of income, which is badly needed to support their families. Again, what do we hope to gain? Stop the sacrifice of Canadian soldiers to a hopeless cause. If we must send soldiers somewhere, let's go to a place where we can do some good. I don't think Afghanistan is that place. We will fight an endless war there and only serve to bolster the military-industrial complex.
  38. Dane Treidler from Canada writes: isn't it hypocritical for the taliban to grow poppies if it's forbidden by islam while they commit terrorist attacks in the name of islam?
  39. Chris - from Canada writes: Very interesting video... looking forward to the next ones.
  40. NA E from Buckhorn, Canada writes: This is the very best thing any news journal has done. This is what news journalism is all about. I have only watched twelve of the unedited interviews so far but it is clear that these are people from a culture wholly different than ours in the west. These are fundamentalist believers who, unlike us, have a very different sense of the individual than we here in the west. Duty to be a part of the religious community, to save and protect it, is as strong for them as our wish to be distinct individuals and save and protect ourselves. So far, not one interviewee has any knowledge of Canada or Canadians or Steven Harper. All they know is that they are non-muslims and it is that, as part of their religious belief, that they fight against, whether it is us, or what they think of as non-muslims from their own or neighbouring countries. By 'non-muslim' they mean non-fundamentalist.

    Having this news, seeing these interviews right in front of me on my computer, is extremely helpful in understanding what is going on in the middle east.

    It is more clear to me than ever that using military methods, fighting, killing, is not a solution for what I see as an impasse. We cannot impose our Western culture on to these people by killing some of them. That only brings in others to stand, fight and die.

    I would say we cannot impose our values on them: period.
  41. NA E from Buckhorn, Canada writes: Based on the previous analysis, I would conclude that at present there is a very destructive dualist understanding of the world and the problem on the part of the jihadists: non-muslim vs (fundamentalist) muslim. This view needs to be expanded and mediated. It would be helpful if the knowledge that people of the muslim faith, even fundamentalists, live all over the world in relative harmony. It might help to know that there are many belief systems around the world that live in relative harmony and that this is possible for the Middle East, too.

    I wish that the people whose interviews I watched could watch interviews with some of the muslim people who live around the world in harmony with others. Perhaps then they would see that it is possible for them in Afghanistan, too.
  42. Deborah Sudul from Calgary, Canada writes: Technical suggestion only: Could the G & M make note that clicking on the pause button will allow videos to continue loading fully so that they can be viewed without the annoying stops and starts. don't know if most online readers are aware of this - I only found it out recently.
    Otherwise, excellent!
  43. Gary Schroeder from Azle, Texas, United States writes: A portrait of average Taliban fighters in Kandahar has emerged for a research project by the Globe and Mail. An interviewer grained unprecedented access …

    This is just absolute nonsense. Canadian newspapers and the globe are just drive-by-media shills for the liberal cause to run OTHER people lives.

    If these ‘Taliban” fighters were that easy to find, CIA and US Military hit squads would have taken them out before this reporter could have interviewed them.

    Canada’s pacifisms is growing old in my Texas …
  44. Jerry g from Canada writes: Great in depth information. Having seen this, it is impossible for Nato and Canadians to stay in this country and pretend we are winning the hearts and minds of this culture. It saddens me to see the level of determination these fighters showed in expelling the non-muslims from their land. For the people that claim that they want to kill us and our standards, this is just a dream in our reality. All the ones I watched, all said all they want is the non-muslims out of Afghanistan. They knew nothing of Canada and very little about our way of life, but one think for sure they do not want us in AFghanistan. We are there under false pretense and the mission just keeps getting harder and harder to accomplish as it continues to move so quickly to appease the political gamesmanship. Shame on our leader, who in fact are NOT. If they were true to the democracy, they would have called an election on why we have spent $7.5 billion to date and the other 10-20 billions in the years to come. The increase is to account for the chopper and tanks being in the years to come. Get our troops out now and stop this public $$$ give away to the arms industry. I do not want to be paying my taxes as blood money to enforce the capitalist free market agenda in Afghanistan while pillaging it for all its worth.
  45. H Chauhan from Toronto, Canada writes: Ugly scary picture.

    One hopes this contact of G&M did not survive the NATO operations
    last night.

    Shame on G& M reporters who give comfort by providing propaganda outlet to these enemies of our brave soldiers.
  46. Tony Sailor from Canada writes: Thanks and congratulations to all at the G&M. Your factual and professional coverage of a very difficult situation is appreciated.

    You are and will be criticized and called names by many.

    Do not pay attention to those. They come for a group that does not want to hear the facts. Actually, judging from their posts, some of them are as extremists as the Taliban themselves.

    Special thanks , Graeme Smith. Looking forward to read you.
  47. Benjamin Rogerson from Canada writes: I feel it is irresponsible to suggest that ISAF determines where insurgents are located simply by flying around and waiting to be shot at. I'm sure most people know this is just not true. Also, I hardly consider Daniel Korski, an expert on international development and post-conflict reconstruction, an expert on what we know about the Taliban or insurgents in general.
  48. James McGillawee from Oshawa, Canada writes: NA E from Buckhorn, Canada, I would point out that I was 5 years old when we hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At that point in 1945 very few in Japan knew where Canada was or cared. My mother said at the time, 'Oh oh, we have done something very terrible to them and they will never forgive us, which is very true even after she had been gone over 5 years now. But it did bring massive changes to Japan and to the rest of the World for that matter.
    I again state that whether it is Taliban, Al Quaeda, or whom ever, your little slice of this third rock from the Sun is no longer an exclusive enclave that you can use to produce poisonous narcotics to corrupt the rest of the world just for your own economic benefit. If you do not change your ways, there will be a serious price to pay. That price may cost you your land and your culture, maybe even your lives.
    CHANGE IS IN ORDER VERY SOON.
    And to anyone who thinks that this G&M effort was an exercise in promoting propaganda, then go back and watch it again very carefully. This was an excellent effort at intelligence gathering that should have been done by our governments long ago. Unfortunately we now have the druggy generation in charge in Washington, London, and Ottawa so I am not surprised at these failures infiltrate and understand our enemies.
  49. Allen Finley from Halifax, writes: Excellent start to the series. One can't helping thinking that it is always better to talk (to an 'enemy') than not to talk...

    By the way, you start by stating that this approach is 'unscientific'. In fact, the methods described (semi-structured interview, thematic analysis) seem drawn from qualitative research methods, most commonly used in sociology and nursing research, and increasingly appreciated by those of us in medicine. I am not an expert, but I would suggest that someone skilled in that methodology might produce very interesting and valuable interpretations of your data.
  50. Mister G. from Canada writes: Did Canada send journalists to interview Nazi soldiers in WW2? I don't think so; it would have been seen very badly by the Canadian public.

    Why is the G&M interviewing the enemy?
  51. H Chauhan from Toronto, Canada writes: G&M and Graem Smith:
    Don't be fooled by the supporters of this article who write under psuedo anglicized names who also are cheerleaders for
    Taliban, al Qa'eda etc. organizations!
  52. James McGillawee from Oshawa, Canada writes: Mister G. from Canada writes: Did Canada send journalists to interview Nazi soldiers in WW2? I don't think so; it would have been seen very badly by the Canadian public.

    Why is the G&M interviewing the enemy?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WW2 era 'interviewing' was done much more clandestinely by our trained operatives, not journalists trainees! And the results were kept very close to the vest. I worked in industry for many years
    under a former WW2 counter intel type. He was a master at finding out what he wanted to know and only told you what he wanted you to know. His MI-4,5 or 6 training was a well honed trade that seems to have been lost!
    The fact that our media types can now wander around the 'battle fields' scraping up information and publishing it speaks volumes about where our politicians are on the learning curve!
  53. Ken DeLuca from Arnprior, Canada writes: To those saying 'don't talk to the enemy', find out who the 'enemy' really is. You may find it is the government which has your forces invade another country to secure their oil.

    You may find the Taliban fighters are filled with hate for any number of reasons, some valid and some not.

    You just might find a way to peace.
  54. Mister G. from Canada writes: The Taliban fighters are being portrayed as ordinary citizens just fighting to preserve their way of life. But what is their way of life? From what we have seen in the past, it was the subjugation of the entire population to their extreme version of Islam. The entire country became a hornets’ nest of Islamic extremism that culminated in the attack on the world trade center and the subsequent Invasion of Afghanistan.
    Some people are outrage that we would impose our way of life on those people but think it is perfectly OK for the Taliban to impose their own views on the entire population of Afghanistan.
    The G&M is getting the point of view of the Taliban but what about the point of view of the MAJORITY of the Afghan population? Let’s hear from them and find out what they think of the Taliban way of life. Let’s hear about what they think of the international effort to eliminate the Taliban and bring democracy and freedom to their country.
    Until then, this G&M report is nothing more than a biased piece of journalism more interested in getting readership then getting at the truth.
  55. Allen Finley from Halifax, Canada writes: I am astonished by people who think that talking to the Taliban is somehow traitorous or wrong. If you believe that they are evil conspirators determined to wipe out the 'Western way of life', then you need to talk to them to find out how to defeat them. If you believe that they are mostly ignorant, misguided, brainwashed youngsters who see Canadians as invaders of their country, then you need to understand how they think to educate and enlighten them. You accomplish neither by demonizing and isolating them.
  56. Justin Campbell from Ottawa, Canada writes: Zaphod Beeblebrox from Regina, Canada writes: 'okay, I know the NDP left wing types will skewer me for this, but why are we talking to our enemies at all? In the last war did we hold discussions with 'individual Nazies' to learn what motivates them?'

    Mister G. from Canada expresses similar sentiments.

    I have to say that the drawing of a parallel between this conflict and WW2 is ridiculous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of either war. In WW2, we fought a clear enemy on the battlefield; in this conflict -- a counterinsurgency operation -- there is no battlefield, and there is no visible enemy. The only way we will win is by understanding what motivates the enemy and cutting them off there, and the only way we can learn this is by talking with them.

    Apologies that when you saw the news this morning you had to discover that the enemy is also human.

    And Zaphod Beeblebrox: feel free to make whatever assumptions you like about my political sympathies. Your post has indicated that you lack the depth and understanding to grasp anything beyond Us/Them- (or Left/Right-) type dichotomies.
  57. Tony Sailor from Canada writes: 'Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Graeme Smith, I've been a strong defender of your reporting from Afghanistan, and my belief in you has been amply rewarded. This is the story that Canadians need to see.

    Canada has unleashed its modern military capability- replete with Leopard tanks and our ally's Apache attack helicopters- against an impoverished, uneducated, tribal society in a primitive land. To a man, our adversaries have no quarrel with Canada; they don't even know where it is on a map. They fight solely for their own land, and their own way of life. That any civilized human being could countenance making war under these circumstances beggars credulity.

    Kudos to Graeme Smith for providing this information. He has done an inestimable service for our country. I know of no better journalism coming out of Afghanistan.

    Look at the truth, Canada, and act accordingly.'

    Thanks Richard, there is nothing I could add that would better your great post.
  58. earl morris from vancouver, Canada writes: Superb journalism. Congratulations to Graeme Smith and the G&M. It sickens me that our good Canadian soldiers are the 'occupation forces' shooting up these local peasants that have taken up arms against the invaders. It also sickens me how NATO brags about killing 10 or 20 of these Afghan peasants with our high tech weapons. The women of Afghanistan are also demanding that we take our soldiers and weapons and leave their country. Google 'women' and 'Afghanistan' and read how our forces are making life worse for the women of Afghanistan.
  59. James McGillawee from Oshawa, Ont., Canada writes: Just in case any of you have forgotten, it is estimated that 92% of the world production of heroine comes from Afganistan. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3294 Now how do you justify not eradicating the poppy fields? It is time to get a grip on reality and act decisively to force the Afganini population to recognize that they are not an island unto themselves in the total population of the world. Plus the Taliban's main source of funding for their campaigns is the cash inflow from opium and heroine exports. This has got to be dealt with directly and permanently. Take no prisoners, give no quarters, and get the message across...........this behavior can and will be the demise of the whole country and any other tribes that think they can just move in from Pakinstan to take over and carry on!
  60. Malcolm kelly from Toronto, Canada writes: The part of this series I'm most interested in reading is what the individual Taliban believe to be the role of women in their society, their place in the home and whether women have a right to education, dreams, a future outside of that dictated to them by radical Islamic leaders.
  61. Jennifer Rollison from Canada writes: Interesting, however, where are the women of Afghanistan? It is all well and good to talk about the men but, should the Taliban be reinstated, the women and, consequently, the children will have a much more dismal life. Yes, I think this is an interesting series but I also think it is somewhat myopic.
  62. Mister G. from Canada writes: It is kind off telling that invariably, the people that likes this report side with the Taliban. Why don’t the G&M put a human face on the Afghan people and see what they think of the Taliban instead of concentrating on the sensational, on the politicaly correct?

    One good thing though, this report may very well contain actionable intelligence for our forces.
  63. Jason Irish from Canada writes: Excellent work G
  64. Ben McCleave from Newmarket, Canada writes: First article was great and I find it truly amazing to be 'virtually' looking into the eyes of a member of the Taliban as he gives his views and opinions.
    I won't get into any politically or emotionally opinionative stuff further than saying that these jihadists are truly fueled by nothing but hatred.
    This is an extremely thorough article and fantastic multimedia resource - I couldn't even find something this extensive on the NATO website.
    Hope the great stuff continues, I can't wait to indulge in the rest of the articles this week.
  65. K Ahmed from Calgary, Canada writes: Firstly, much kudos to G&M for this outstanding investigative project into the 'Taliban' insurgency (more accurately a Pashtun ethnic insurgency). The writing is on the wall. I hope Canadians will learn to realize the important points coming out from this multimedia piece (which has been repeated by several commentators in the past, but ignored): 1) The hardcore Taliban are few, and are actually recruiting angry, disgruntled, and incensed Pashtun tribesmen who either lost family and friends at the hands of NATO, lost their livelihoods, or were angered by the destruction of Pashtun villages. 2) The insurgency is 99.99% Pashtun, the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan (42% of the nation's population). This is because the Pashtun tribes live in the south and are the ones being killed in combat with NATO, along with civilians. The Taliban were also a Pashtun-dominated regime. 3) The Afghan Pashtuns perceive Western occupation of Afghanistan and the government as against Islam, and compare it to the Soviet and British occupations of the past. They say they will fight 'like their ancestors fought'. Quite telling. 4) The Taliban have a recruiting pool of millions of young Afghan Pashtuns 5) The Afghan National Army is 85% non-Pashtun (mostly Uzbeck and Tajik) and NATO is reluctant to induct Pashtuns becaue of fear of Pashtuns switching sides after getting trained .... quite telling why the ANA is a sham. 6) The Pashtun culture is very honour-based and the killing of one Pashtun in a village elicits a revenge-based response from other Pashtuns. Democracy? Not a chance. Ultimately, NATO needs to withdraw combat troops and relocate them to the Uzbek and Tajik northern Afghan regions. And, replace NATO troops in the south with a well-trained multinational Muslim force (excluding Pakistan & Iran) until the Pashtuns can take over security themselves.
  66. Repeatedly Censored from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Just reviewed Part 2, Forced to fight. What appears to me most significant is that you rehumanize the Taliban! As is well known, the first task of warmongers is to dehumanize the 'enemy'. That is what keeps the Myth of War alive and people fighting. Hence, your contribution against warmongering is very significant.
  67. Andrew E from Canada writes: The G&M reporters owe it to the Canadian men and women in our military to divulge the places where these Taliban are hiding, or at the very least, where these interviews occurred. Here's a 'newsflash' for all you university-educated journalists: each and every one of those interviewed would not hesitate to kill a Canadian soldier.
  68. green infidel from Nova Scotia, Canada writes: Thank you Graeme Smith.

    As a family member of one of our fallen, I spent a great deal of time an effort in an attempt to better understand the conflict in Afghanistan and Canada's role there.

    I've read everything I can get my hands on and spoken to many of our soldiers who have done tours of duty in Afghanistan.

    Your article adds much to our body of knowledge and understanding of the conflict.

    The interviews of the Taliban paints a clear picture of the motivations of the foot soldier on the 'other side'.

    Clearly in the minds of the Taliban foot soldier, this is Jihad.

    The solution to this conflict?

    John Lennon said it best - 'Imagine No Religion'
  69. I, Publius from Canada writes: Maybe you could interview some women who lived under Taliban rule. Or some homosexuals. Or some non-muslims...

    I hope you took your free 'Welcome to the 5th column' pin.
  70. Repeatedly Censored from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: 'Canadian troops and their allies have been drawn into an ancient tribal feud that simmers beneath the conflict in southern Afghanistan' (The Tribal War) -- I am not sure that is accurate. I wish you had looked more deeply into how the US has exploited the tribal feud, before attacking Afghanistan and during the invasion of the country. We need to know also how the US later maneuvered to have those they wanted on their side, in government. I very much doubt the US, NATO and the 'allies' be in any way victims of anything, in all of this...
  71. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: I'm not sure why the G&M is being heralded for this bit of (intended or not) trickery. You can be assured that the Taliban welcome the chance to hoodwink us. They are not simple sheep herders who don't know where Canada is. What a joke. These are intelligent individuals who know how to play the propaganda game. They know that the G&M is a willing pawn in their plan and that there are readers here in Canada that are gullible and easy prey. The Taliban have no inclination to play by International rules. They will not talk or go a diplomatic route until THEIR demands are met. They wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger and kill a Canadian ... man, woman or child ... NDP, Liberal or Conservative. They kill their own without prejudice or hesitation. Drink the kool-aid if you wish ... I'll pass thanks.
  72. J Scully from Kincardine, Canada writes: Thank you to Mr. Smith and his team for doing some much needed real journalism.
  73. Repeatedly Censored from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: On Pakistan Relations... I find it fascinating that after having itself determined arbitrarily what the borders would be, in that part of the world, the arrogant West has become incapable of understanding anymore the ethnic realities, relationships and intricacies that prevail there, as well as how fluid are the movements of the populations living in those areas. The problem is not 'the mountains' they point to, but the human realities that exist in those mountains and beyond, which is most probably what they are referring to as the source of the ongoing conflict. To not understand that, means we don't understand the source, nature and reality of that conflict. Yet it has been known for centuries that, long term, to fight not knowing who one is fighting is the best recipe for unmitigated disaster.
  74. Mike Capstick from Calgary, Canada writes: Great reporting but readers need to keep it in context. 42 interviews hardly constitutes a valid sampling of Afghan public opinion. The population of Afghanistan is around 31 million people who, despite their ethnic diversity, identify themselves with an Afghan nation. Worst case estimates put Afghan fighting strength at around 6 to 10 thousand...the other 31 million Afghans live in fear of a Taliban return. After a year in Kabul it is clear to me that most Afghans simply don't fit the stereotype represented by these 42. Instead of 'Jihad,' most of the 31 million want peace, order and good government. Canada and the international community are there to help them attain that. No one said that it would be easy.
  75. G Capital from Toronto, Canada writes: Half of pakistan does belongs to afghans and the other half belongs to the punjab (india side). The Sikhs invaded afghanistan and took over major parts of it and formed the Sikh empire, headed by Maharaja Ranjit Singh. After the death of the maharaja, the british exiled his last remaning son to england and converted him to christianity and excommunicated him from the throne and meanwhile annexing the sikh empire after 2 anglo-sikh wars. A part of this territory was the afghan lands that maharaja ranjit singh conquered that the taliban claim to be theres. And the punjab state of pakistan is historically Sikh homeland. Most pakistani's are originally from India. As 60% of the land in pakistan was owned by hindus and sikhs at the time of partition.
  76. J W from Canada writes: Actually, its funny I Publius-I was just going to ask the same thing. I, for one, would like to see more of an attempt at speaking with women in Afghanistan to try and get a better sense of what (if anything) has changed for them. We should not only focus on the violent sects of the society (Taliban) but also the regular citizenry who have had to live with the occupations (both NATO and Taliban).
    Excellent start though-keep up the good work, it is truly valuable to try to gain the 'other side's' perspective.
  77. Repeatedly Censored from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: View of the world ---- Point taken: how can they be against us, let alone dangerous to us, given they do not even know we exist?!... More to the point however is this: if they were not originally our enemies, it is not because of their ignorance, but simply because they did mind their own business, i.e. caring exclusively for their own people and their own country. To have them as 'enemies' now, we had to participate in the invasion and in the occupation of their country, we had to go kill and maim many of their compatriots (innocent civilians --- women, children and old people), we had to destroy their property, etc.. In other words, we had to be looking for trouble and for an opportunity to make enemies on their soil. On that score, obviously, that so-called 'mission' has been successful beyond one's wildest expectations. Job well done!
  78. Ajeeb G from Edmonton, Canada writes: I thought the project was fantastic; this is what journalism should be about. The only quibble I have is with the questions; I think some of them were a bit silly -- like 'who is Stephen Dion? and 'which Canadian soldiers fight better?'. I would have liked some more challenging questions like 'what is your opinion of 9-11?' or 'what do you think of the elections held in 2004? Do you believe many Afghans actually voted for Hamid Karzai?') Projects like this are necessary; they open a whole window of information to us and let us attempt to understand other perspectives that play a role in shaping our world. I cannot stand the idiots who insist on calling this kind of journalism 'propaganda' or 'left-wing fifth columnism'. It is ironic that they call this sort of work propaganda, because it threatens to introduce nuance into our perspective. These sorts of individuals seem to think that the world needs to be seen in a way that is as black and white as possible, or else we will somehow lose our 'will' to preserve ourselves in the face of some real or imagined 'enemy'. Ironically the type of 'news' best fitted to achieving the outcome of presenting the world in stark black and white terms is in fact: propaganda. Simply finding out what the Taliban have to say isn't propaganda -- unless perhaps the critics think the Canadian people are so stupid they cannot figure out for themselves that their must be another side, or multiple other sides, to the views represented by the Taliban.
  79. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: What a load of bull! They would not fight Afghan soldiers if they were not in convoy with foreign troops! But they have no problem ambushing girls on their way home from school and killing them! Or killing people for teaching children. Or beheading a ten year old boy for giving bread to Afghan police-- and then hanging his father for trying to intervene. They killed a Canadian who was building a school with his own money. They attack Afghan police and blow up police stations where there are no troops present. They continue to destroy schools and kill teachers - but they won't fight Afghan soldiers? Give me a break! Cleary the people interviewed were often the most illiterate and ignorant products of brainwashing in madrassas where they have no exposure to the outside world and spend most of their time memorizing the Koran. That was really the only education available and they were not allowed to learn other subjects. They fight because that is all they know - hatred of non-Muslims. Many simply do as they are told and have no information base or capacity for individual consideration of the overall issues. This may make some people feel better but it is not an accurrate presentation of what is taking place in Afghanistan or the Muslim world. For those interested in learning more about what really is taking place I highly recommend the book 'Because they Hate' by Brigitte Gabriel. She was a Christian growing up in Lebanon at the time of the civil war and provides a very clear picture of what is taking place in the Muslim world. The situation in Afghanistan has to be considered in the context of the entire region. The views presented here are also not those I hear from Afghans who came here to get away from the violence. They indicate that the majority of Afghans want our troops there.
  80. danish ajmeri from mississauga, Canada writes: Graeme,

    I felt your documentary was interesting and engaging and posts some interesting questions for Canadians and the world. However, you claim to say that these soldiers are ignorant, but do you blame them? They have too many problems to know who Stephane Dion is, or where Canada is. Heck, there are people in CANADA who wouldnt be able to answer some of those questions you asked them. What is being done to them by us 'Allies' is unjust and inhumane. It is not our business to tell them how their country should be run. We all know the real reasons why the united states is there. Everything is part of the plan, their plan to sustain the global domination they have possessed for so long. We have already seen from their conquest in Iraq, what the real intentions are. I may be young, but I am definitely not stupid and naive. If it is this obvious to me, then it should be fairly obvious to the other 6 billion people inhabiting this planet.
  81. Dorina Grossu from Norval, Canada writes: Graeme,

    Your reportage brings “light” to Canadians regarding type of involvement in this war. If I would have the political power, I would bring all soldiers home because you brought enough evidence to prove that NATO’s soldiers are not seen as peace keepers.

    Secondly, if I would have enough money, I would organize a Taliban’s trip to Saudi Arabia and engage them in a normal daily routine life in their own Muslim world.

    I can also interpret from your reportage that their ideology as a ‘moving target’;whoever sponsors them has been changing fighting tactics faster than NATO’s reaction.
  82. Mike W from Calgary, Canada writes: First, good job to G&M. The format was excellent. I hope to see more news docs being done with this kind of multi-media.

    I think Graeme did a good job but it's not a very balanced news piece. I'm surprised by how many comments sympathize with Taliban. I think a good follow up would be 'Talking to Afganies' where you can interview the normal citizens of the country that are oppressed by the Taliban. Canadians are risking their lives so that the 'slaves of the non-muslim' can have basic human rights.

    I also found it ironic that growing poppies is against Islamic law, but hey, they need the money so why not. Just like Western religous people they pick and choose what they believe.
  83. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: This story makes it pretty clear , that whatever is going on in Afghanistan, it is none of our business .

    Between the competeing agenda's of the USA and Pakistan , competing tribal agenda's , and the laws of Pashtun Wali ,Nato's presence seems an unecessary complication .

    Well done G&M and Mr. Smith.
  84. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: This segment demonstrates that many of the fighters have little real knowledge beyond what they are told by their leaders and the mullahs. Despite what is claimed here, the majority of suicide bombers have not been Afghans but foreign fighters. In recent years there has also been an increase in female suicide bombers. Women who are vulnerable because they have been accused of adultery or other such offense are offered the choice of redeeming their honour by being a suicide bomber. Certainly the influence here comes from outside of Afghanistan. Along with the increase in IEDs, suicide attacks reflect the desperation of those who cannot defeat our troops in combat.
  85. Merv Sabey from Ottawa, Canada writes: I have spent the better part of two hours engrossed in viewing “Talking to the Taliban” by Graeme Smith and the Globe and Mail. Not only did I view all the ‘episodes’ released to date but I looked at all the graphics and watched nearly two-thirds of the raw video interviews with the 42 Taliban fighters.

    This is remarkable work.

    Thank you for giving us this rare opportunity to better understand what is currently going on in Afghanistan, free from the constant public relations barrage that always accompanies war. (In war, truth is the first casualty - Aeschylus) I look forward to more such episodes.

    Before we condemn the Taliban as misguided, uninformed, uneducated Islamic fanatics, no matter how disturbing we in the West may find the impact of strict sharia law, we should take a moment to think about how equally often Christianity has been used, and continues to be used, to justify and sanctify war and violence and hatred.

    God Bless (Insert name of country here).

    Will we never stop killing one another for God’s sake?
  86. Tilting @ Windmills from Marbella, Spain writes: Good journalism and presentation. So they fight because 'non-muslims are in their land'. One might empathise - but lets not lose sight of reality. Muslims are in my land, but I don't demand their extermination. And where are the women? These people need to grow up and smell the poppies.
    Actually, I lie: I do demand the extermination - but of Islam, not its luckless adherents. I don't have 800 years to wait until Islam reaches the same level of benign irrelevance as Christianity.
  87. Darren X3 from Toronto, Canada writes: I am stunned and baffled by the criticisms of this article.

    1. Sun Tzu wrote: 'Know the enemy'. At the very least, if we have made up our minds for implacable warfare with the Taliban, does it not aid our war effort to know more about them?

    2. Is our cause in Afghanistan so weak and flimsy that we are afraid to examine it too closely?

    3. Isn't the 'freedom' to publish such an article exactly what we always claim to be 'fighting for'?? If the British had the guts to allow a non-confidence vote to proceed in Parliament in the middle of WW2, surely our soldiers can handle it if we can allow our national newspaper to go off and talk to a few of the people they are fighting?
  88. hossein hajiagha from Victoria, Canada writes: I be 2 years in war in revolutionary guard in Iran , first this is crazy ideas to talk to this crazy funtamentalism Moslem's, Iranian are better and educated as them this crazy guy in Afghanistan are really crazy If I had power I will go after all of them so badly to break them down...I am good reference if you have any question, why Muslims in Iran are rejecting western life I know the answer not because American name or canadian because of a dirty life and freedom we have here , I was thinking when I move to USA and canada this country is so safe , great to start new life...after 12 years ...when I look in past , gay freedom, gang's freedom, drugs freedom, crime freedom, so many divorced...there is no place in western society for family and children and respect to them? but in Islam yes? young as 12 smoke hashish is legal in BC, sale sex...parent do not have right by canadian law to punish or ask own child why? easy women and man get divorced....no one care about children with no parent....If we had better kind of the lifestyles here can be nice to bring in Iran or in Afghanistan to people there do not supporting a crazy talabani....
  89. hossein hajiagha from Victoria, Canada writes: until you guys in canada or in USA not honest people and have a problems with censorship in your country, so much freedom , and do not respect to a family and children more as own gay right , I thinks we can not be winner over this fight with bad guy?
  90. Manley or Iggy for leadership of Conservatives get the SPP show going from Canada writes: Mister G. from Canada writes: Did Canada send journalists to interview Nazi soldiers in WW2? I don't think so; it would have been seen very badly by the Canadian public.

    Why is the G&M interviewing the enemy?
    Posted 23/03/08 at 4:13 PM EDT

    Somebody studied how to unite the people against a common enemy when they are hungary and under attack ? (by in pre war Germany's case world economic turmoil or years of Afghan civil wars ) Certainly bush and his world wide neocon band did not .

    Both hitler and taliban leadership use the same ideas they just field different types of armies ? The author of this article all but spits it onto your face .
  91. Paul S from Niagara Region, Canada writes: It is truly a shame that many of the posters in this thread seem to think that the Taliban represent the will of the majority of Afghans.

    If you watch the unedited clips of the interviews of the Taliban fighters then you will find that they are an extremely ignorant people who wish to live in the seventh century for the rest of their lives, and persecute anyone in their country who wants progress.

    Yes it is true that they would not 'follow us home'. Yes it is true that they are not trying to conduct a campaign of global jihad. But none of that matters. What really matters is that they are trying to keep Afghanistan and its people in the stone age, and the people of Afghanistan deserve better than that.

    In this world, if we are ever going to have peace, then people of all creeds are going to have to be on the same page and willing to work together. The Taliban interviewees said it themselves, 'Non-muslim countries are bad for Afghanistan'. They are not going to work together with the global community. And despite what Jack Layton says, they are not going to negotiate with non-Muslims or non-Muslim supported governments.

    Groups like this cannot be allowed to hold power.
  92. Sean Jorden from Calgary, Canada writes: I found this piece to be balanced and very informative.

    It appears from the interview that the Taliban are basically a loosely organized militia of ignorant peasants fueled by propagandizing religious zealots who want to impose their own views on the rest of the country. They are not trying to defend a way of life, they are trying to impose it on the entire country. In other words, not much has changed.
  93. Suzanne Bourbonnais from Gatineau, Canada writes: Bravo Graeme Smith for your audacious and insightful journalism. U.S. and Canadian Government propaganda aside, it is about time we get a sense of the true face of who we are fighting in Afghanistan. This is not about our troops; this is not about demonizing the ‘enemy’. This is about knowledge. Information should never be feared, it is power to control one’s own destiny, freedom to make our own educated choices, without blindly buying in to someone else’s views. Life is not simple; nothing is ever just black or white, good or evil. To understand what motivates the other is a first step in reconciling our differences. Your series has helped me understand the different layers of complexity in Afghanistan. It also reinforced my view that not unlike our Western World, people with special interests profit at the expense of the weak. Unless we change our tactics to better address the issue, there will always be an impoverished, uneducated Afghan driven by a sense of duty or by sheer necessity to take up arms. We went to Afghanistan to clean up the mess left by the Americans in their quest to avenge the attacks of 9/11 without fully understanding what we were getting into. Now we find ourselves in a mess we cannot morally withdraw from, or so we are told. We should at least ensure we understand, albeit belatedly, what needs to be done to make it better. Thanks to reporters such as Graeme, we are given an opportunity to learn more about Afghanistan, its tribes and its culture and consequently, I personally feel I have greater insight on what our vision might be for our remaining presence in Afghanistan, beyond our futile war on terror.
  94. ron jones from vancouver, Canada writes: Thank you. This is very good investigative journalism and please keep it up. Tho one point I would like to make is that trying to eliminate the poppy fields in that country is an exercise in futility. Cultivation of the poppy can and will be moved elsewhere as long as