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Why Tibet is boiling over

GEOFFREY YORK

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 4:15 AM EDT 21/03/08

As protests spread beyond Lhasa, The Globe examines the environmental, economic and demographic grievances at the root of the bitter conflict ...Read the full article

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  1. Michael Sharp from Japanese plum blossomville., Canada writes:

    China fears men of faith.

    They're Godless socialists, dont you know?
  2. H Chu from Canada writes:
    Harper urges restraint, was that to his cabinet or to the PRC?
  3. Michael Sharp from Japanese plum blossomville., Canada writes:

    Anybody know why Vietnamese Buddhists would set themselves on fire?

    I mean I get the, 'I hate you, watch me hurt me' thingy.

    But even a good Buddhist must be aware of Darwin.
  4. SN Dream from Canada writes: Michael Sharp from Japanese plum blossomville., Canada writes:
    China fears men of faith.
    They're Godless socialists, dont you know?
    ---------------------------------------
    Yeah, and Bin laden said the western are trembling before their faith. I forgot what he call us though.

    Same argument been used by native here to justify riot over and over again and I am not buying it. People here just have double standard because of bigotry.
  5. Freedom Liberty from London, Canada writes: Apart from the US which can push China to resolve the crisis only India a regional power can play any role. It is wishful thinking for Canada to play any role in solving the Tibetan crisis. An Olympic boycott may harden the Chinese position. It should be a comprehensive solution between India China and the Tibetans.
  6. Rupert Bumfrey from Dubai, United Arab Emirates writes: The West's failure to boycott the Beijing Olympics ranks up with the West's failure to boycott the 1936 Olympics. In both cases the host government was in the process of planning or implementing ethnic cleansing. This is just a case of total Western postitution - the West is selling its resources to China, its biggest customer so it doesn't want to upset them. Absolutely disgusting. Too bad the Chinese Han aren't Jews, then the whole world would be screaming, nut urging restraint.
  7. William Scott Lee III from Vancouver, Canada writes: I think Mr York should at least spend more time researching and writing before publishing. I know his editor is screaming for a piece on Tibet,but please don't take a page from the Chinese. Please don't put your kid's college tuition before the needs of your readers.

    As for the Tibetans of course they are upset about religious freedom in China, but what about Falun Gong, prosecution of Christians, Muslims and the underground Catholic Church.

    The Tibetan are second class citizens in their own land, but what about the Chinese peasants who have their land taken away from them for developing with meager compensation by corrupt officials. What about the urban poor who's houses are razed to build new shopping centres? Or fishermen who can't earn a living because
    their fishing grounds are too polluted?

    The only difference between Tibetans in everyone else in China, is Tibetans allow lazy journalists to write an article that captures religious persecution, brutal police treatment, corrupt officials, economic injustice under the simple guise of Chinese mistreat Tibetans. Its just bad luck that the Tibetan happen to be poor, are religious and different. I am pretty sure if you are a poor Han Chinese villager who believes in the Falun Gong who recently had a company owned by cousin of the local party chief dump toxic chemicals on his land would feel just as upset as the Tibetans. There are at least a couple of protest and riots happening across China everyday.
  8. A Reader from Canada from Montreal, Canada writes: I'm outraged that the IOC has remained silent while hundreds of Tibetans across Tibet are intimidated, imprisoned, beaten and killed by Chinese forces.

    Tibetans have suffered greatly for almost 6 decades under Chinese rule & are now risking everything to speak out. Despite the growing unrest, the Beijing Olympics organizers are moving ahead with preparations to carry the Olympic torch through Tibet & to the top of Everest. China must not be allowed to bring its torch to Tibet after the Tibetan people have so strongly denounced China's occupation of their homeland. So far, the IOC has shirked any responsibility for the Chinese government's recent atrocities.

    i call on IOC to take action now & show the global community that you value the principles upon which the Olympic institution was founded. If the IOC allows China to carry its torch through Tibet, it will be complicit in the violent crackdown on Tibetans that will undoubtedly occur.

    Unless IOC Prez Rogge wants the Olympic Torch to become a symbol of bloodshed & repression, the IOC must immediately withdraw the TAR & the Tibetan provinces of Amdo & Kham - now annexed into China's Qinghai, Sichuan, Yunnan, & Gansu - from the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay route.

    As reports spread of arbitrary arrests, house-to-house raids, killings, & even beatings of schoolchildren, it is unthinkable that the IOC would continue to move forward with 'business as usual'. Allowing the torch to be carried through Tibet will escalate tensions, giving the Chinese forces an excuse to continue its violent crackdown.

    People of conscience worldwide have responded with an outpouring of support for Tibetans inside Tibet & condemnation of the Chinese government's heavy-handed crackdown. Stand on the right side of history & immediately withdraw all Tibetan provinces from the torch relay route.
  9. Canada Forever from Canada writes: Same thing is happening in China as is happening all over the world. People rich with money and power using the states 'monopoly' of violence to oppress the poor and working class while protecting the assets as well as interests of the elites.
  10. Richard Chao from Windsor, Canada writes: Why GLOBE AND MAIL always lie. The editor is cheating. Can Canadian police allow people killing while protest?
  11. Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: I don't think there is any doubt the article is a bit weak. I find it hard to believe that the 'balloon' incident sparked this. Although I didn't know about the mining and the railway. That helps explain the situation.

    The point being there's not much we journalists can write seing they can't be there. I also find it interesting that the Dali Lahma is seeking autonomy, while articles claim those on the ground want independance.

    I don't think anyone really knows what is going on.
  12. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: Historical ignorance and revisionism rules - again. China invaded and occupied Tibet back in 1950. It was an unprovikerd attack - pure imperialism and expansionism. Since then, the Chinese have been doing everything the can to destroy and absorb Tibet nad its people into the Han majority. See also Russificatrioon under the Soviets. Richard Chao - pipe down - you are part of the problem.
  13. Rupert Bumfrey from Dubai, United Arab Emirates writes: Tibetans are not just another minority in China. Tibet is an occupied country whose indigenous residents are being systematically oppressed by the occupier. There may indeed be minorities in China who are similarly oppressed but they are nevertheless different in that they are a minority in China, not a majority in a country occupied by a minority. Given the situation, it is hardly surprising that wherever you look in the world where totalitarian and/or oppressive regimes exist, you can find the hand of the Chinese in that country. Syria, Iran, North Korea, numerous African countries, the list goes on and on.
  14. Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes: Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: I don't think there is any doubt the article is a bit weak. I find it hard to believe that the 'balloon' incident sparked this. Although I didn't know about the mining and the railway. That helps explain the situation.

    The point being there's not much we journalists can write seing they can't be there. I also find it interesting that the Dali Lahma is seeking autonomy, while articles claim those on the ground want independance.

    I don't think anyone really knows what is going on.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I believe that balloon could sparked it. What you and most of the other people are missing is feeling what it is like to be oppressed. You may read about it, but it is never the same. You can never understand it regardless how much you read about it! Believe me, it is quite an experience to live there and to feel, there is another world outside, but you can do nothing. It was for me ever so hopeless!


    On numerous occasions I could read silly references to Gestapo or Nazis used to describe situations here on this North America continent. They were not even aware of communism! What a farce!
  15. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: Freedom Liberty from London, Canada writes: 'Apart from the US which can push China to resolve the crisis only India a regional power can play any role'.

    With China holding the lion's share of US government bonds, they own much of America's debt. It is most unlikely the Chinese would pay more than scant attention to pressure from Washington. Considering the US financial situation at the moment, expect nothing more than muted acceptance. Sorta like Harper's call for restraint. It's a pathetic way to look like you have a position, while letting Beijing know that we, as a nation, are going to do precisely nothing.
  16. Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: Levap K from Burlington,

    I need to correct you, not in a bad way, because you missed the point of my post. It wasn't about the level of opression in Tibet which you managed to slip in there. Simply the fact this has been going on for over a week and we barely know what has happened.

    Im simply saying the media and the world have been grooping in the dark the past week because of the media block out by the China. This is perhaps one reason why world leaders have not put any real pressure on China.

    Everyone has a lot to lose here, but China has the most. so why don't world leaders apply pressure?
  17. Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes: Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: Levap K from Burlington,

    Simply the fact this has been going on for over a week and we barely know what has happened.

    Everyone has a lot to lose here, but China has the most. so why don't world leaders apply pressure?
    Posted 21/03/08 at 7:36 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sorry, I have to disgaree. It has been going on for decades, but everybody was too busy to pay any attention until it gets bloody.

    As of the world leaders and applying pressure? Where were they all when Eastern Europe was sold to Stalin and specifically by them? I don't want to repeat myself again 1953 East Germany, 1956 Budapest, 1968 Prague, 1980 Gdansk and so on it went. You can find so many parallels throughout the history. It can be mind boggling.
  18. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: Remenber how Harper tore into the Chinese President when he was first elected. That shows true leadership.
    China fears men klike Harper. and in the coming days we will hear more from this govt. Jason Kenny is right now in mexico once he gets back he will lambast the Chinese on their human rights record and they will flee !

    Harper has been called by Jesus to lead just as Bush has been .
  19. F H from Canada writes: 'Richard Chao from Windsor, Canada writes: Why GLOBE AND MAIL always lie. The editor is cheating. Can Canadian police allow people killing while protest? '

    Richard, there IS no killing during protests here as protests are a legal form for Free Speech. Let the people speak. Let them march. Let them have a voice.

    To not do so is to spit in the face of human rights and dignity.
  20. jamie yavis from Canada writes: This is piece is an opinion article and as such is very difficult to read as a journalistic article on the front page of a national paper in a supposed democratic country

    It is made an even more difficult read having recently travelled extensively throughout Tibet and China, which I suggest the writers should do before they spew their biased words coming from limited sources and writing to deadline.

    Journalism is about balanced coverage so an individual reader can choose which side is logical to them. To include second, and third hand quotes to support a story is too incredible for words.

    However, this piece continues along that vein as inciting propoganda to say the least, and at most inaccurate because of the many exclusions and omissions that would make it newsworthy.
  21. F H from Canada writes: MF, only fools use Wikipedia as a reference.
  22. NWT Knifer from Yellowknife, Canada writes: People of China had freedom under the Emperor it is now time for them to return to that! At least under the Emperor Christian Missionaries where allowed in to China to spread the GOOD NEWS!
  23. F H from Canada writes: 'It is made an even more difficult read having recently travelled extensively throughout Tibet and China, which I suggest the writers should do before they spew their biased words coming from limited sources and writing to deadline.'

    Here's the problem with that suggestion.

    China has blocked all foregin journalists and tourist from any areas that there is unrest, from one side of their mouth saying, 'There's nothing to see. Everything's fine.' and from the other, 'You have to leave for your own safety.'

    If the first is true, then what's the problem in any of them being there?

    If the second is true, journalists have a DUTY to go into the thick of things and report their first hand experiences as opposed to mouthing government propoganda.

    Don't blame our media for having to write opinion pieces at this point when it's China that is blocking them from doing hard reporting.
  24. Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: MF, only fools use Wikipedia as a reference.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can say the same about the Internet. You have to know and use your own judgement.
  25. F H from Canada writes: NWT, talking about Missionaries trying to force their religion on other people is not helping.

    It's equal to forcing people to give up the religion of their choice, just as China is doing to the people of Tibet.
  26. F H from Canada writes: Levap, very true. I do my best to listen to many sides of a theory or argument and then come to my own conclusions.
  27. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: M F from Toronto , the whole world sees through your outrageous lies .
    The Chinese know full well that they are practicing cultural genocide on Tibetans , what else would you call the bizarre blasphamy that the Chinese central party committee is the Buddha ?Buddhists mourn for the Tibetans, and the Chinese. The path of the aggressor always leads to greater suffering than the path of their victims .The suffering of the abusers will last an eternity after the great liberation of thier victims.
    The world owes a debt to China , we might never have known the truth of Tibetan Buddhism , or known the Dalai Lama, had it not been for China's aggression . Even the cursed are blessed.
  28. kinda interested from Toronto, Canada writes: jamie yavis you said absolutely nothing in 4 paragraphs.....if you are going to refute the article, at least state what form the inaccuracies take.

    I really don't think this article is meant to be a sociological paper, it is meant to illustrate Tibetan struggles. If you really traveled through China, then the communist philosophy and arrogant nature of leadership are pretty plain.

    Are you under the impression that the Chinese government treats Tibet with love and respect? Is China not forcefully trying to assimilate Tibetans into Chinese culture effectively destroying Tibetan history? This sounds out of character for the Chinese government?

    If you backpacked around, yeah, people are nice and it's a wonderful world...but did you really pay attention?

    Tibet is a conquered nation and China is not shy about that.....plain and simple. The modern world keeps them reigned in a bit (are other countries are watching) so the extremes are lessened, that's all.
  29. Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: Levap K from Burlington,

    You're on a different point than me.

    I'm not sure I like how you assume everyone doesn't know of the history of Tibet.

  30. Dead Parrot Sketch from Canada writes: Odd that an op. ed would be headline news.

    If this journalist had an investigative streak - he'd be pointing out that the situation of other and related Buddhists (Tibetan) in inner Mongolia, the rise of Islamic separatism in other parts of China and the state of ethnic minorities throughout China. While Tibet is the focal point of change - there are equally important processes underway. Diffusion, contagion and demonstration all play a role here in upsetting the Han apple cart.
  31. Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes: Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: Levap K from Burlington,

    You're on a different point than me.

    I'm not sure I like how you assume everyone doesn't know of the history of Tibet.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You are right. I guess, that I see the World based on my past experience living in a communist country.
  32. Paul, Bytown, from Canada writes: Pretty one sided story. For a better understanding of the Tibetan history, check out the following:

    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7355

    The following line 'The railway, meanwhile, was bringing a huge influx of Han Chinese into Lhasa, turning it increasingly into a Chinese-dominated city' sort of reminded me of the Albanians entering Kosovo and dominating under the support of the west. But since it's China, this is not acceptable.

    Anyways, read the article mentioned and maybe it's really all about the resources. After all, isn't it always all about the money and who can profit from it while using peoples beliefs as a cop-out.
  33. K Z from Canada writes: As usual, Geoffery York is spoon-feeding his incredulous readers with easily digested foods concocted with half facts and peppers.
  34. Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes:

    Living in a communist country shouldn't cloud you from zeroing in on what others are arguing. You just started to talk about what you wanted to while ignoring what I said. This isn't a problem if you didn't respond to me. So yes we are on a different point and yes its because you lived in a communist country, but no its not because you have a different perspective.

    Its because you saw Tibet and wanted to share that with us regardless of the argument. Square peg, round hole or the academic analogy - Answering a different question than what was asked.
  35. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Guys,

    Check out this BBC article on Tibetan Railway:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6940182.stm

    This is not a Chinese government article, it is written by BBC reporter.
  36. M F from Canada writes: This one BBC article on mining in Tibet: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6921937.stm
  37. K Z from Canada writes: Kinda interested, can you enlighten me how China is forcefully trying to assimilate Tibetans into Chinese culture? Thank you!
  38. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Here is another more objective article on Chinese investment in Tibet.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6498909.stm

    Gee, these articles from BBC really put shame to G&M and Mr. Geoffrey York. If Mr. York wanted to do a good journalism, at least don't be so lazy. Come on, Mr. York, enough booze and partying, do some real work!
  39. bill wilson from Taiwan writes: Time to take a stand against the an imperial China. Whether in Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang or towards Taiwan, China continues to try to play the role of an imperial power of old. It must stop.
  40. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: bill wilson from Taiwan writes:

    'Time to take a stand against the an imperial China. Whether in Tibet, Mongolia, Xinjiang or towards Taiwan, China continues to try to play the role of an imperial power of old. It must stop. '

    Why don't you give Mr. Bush a call? Go away, son, big guys are talking....
  41. Johnny LaRue from Second City, Canada writes: Good article. China may be trying to contain the facts but the truth will inevitably come to light. Lots of first-hand video and pictures here:

    http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/03/images-and-news.html

    Stop China from killing Tibetans! Reveal the truth! Free Tibet!
  42. William Marcovitch from toronto, Canada writes: The Cracks in the Greater Wall of China are appearing! Like the former Soviet Union its walls will also come crashing down. In the Soviet time it started with the Hungarian uprising in 1956, and with the Czech spring of 1967. It took close to a half century that time.

    In the interim the Communist leadership, now an industrializing and modernity driven Fascistic, Nazi-like dictatorship, is conducting itself as all illegitimate oppressors do,oppressing rights and brutalizing their victims, those vast ethnic and religious multitudes numbering in the hundreds of millions within the Chinese lager.

    The biggest nightmare for the Chinese is Time , Technology, and Exposure of the world to its innards and that of its oppressed people to the outside world.

    The gut reaction to boycott the Olympics is srtong. But participation would contribute to further Exposure, and that's essential.

    Any expectations from the virtually criminally corrupt IOC would be a farce were it not so tragic. Its corruption is well documented and the legacy of its longtime Chairman, Juan Antonio Samaranch, the Fascist, Nazi supporting henchman of Spain's Dictator Franco still casts a long shadow behind its very closed doors.

    The IOC plays Fritz to China's Fratz.
  43. Dead Parrot Sketch from Canada writes: KZ writes: As usual, Geoffery York is spoon-feeding his incredulous readers with easily digested foods concocted with half facts and peppers.

    I didn't see this as a food piece on Szechuan cooking. Peppers?
  44. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Tibet: Transformation & Tradition

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7279789.stm
  45. Jean Bilodeau from Gatineau, Canada writes: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3110
  46. K Z from Canada writes: Bill Wilson, good to hear that somebody takes a stand against 'imperial China', China is very scared of you. Keep on!
  47. Al Desulovich from Burlington, Canada writes: I guess the Chinese communist party is not approaching this situation wisely. They should let the Tibetans be free....and then when Tibetans realize they need lots of money to run a country, they might even return to China.
    I also think some hardline guys at the communist party need to remember their bad experiences during WWII. Anyway Tibet needs China. Both need to work together.
  48. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Jean Bilodeau from Gatineau, Canada writes:

    'http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3110'

    This is because, Western leaders are not as stupid as some of the readers here. The won't be fooled by this kind of articles as well.
  49. Kevin Wells from United States writes:
    M F can't understand why the Tibetans aren't more grateful for being subjugated by the Han Chinese.
  50. Durward Saar from Canada writes: KZ From Canada...
    What would you call tearing down your monasteries, persecuting your religion,killing your people, dictating your 'laws', replacing your government, and giving your land to party loyalists if not forced assimilation?
    Hmm come to think of it it is more like a slow genocide.
    China Sucks.
    No Trade with China!
    Their products are crap and often deadly.
    Boycott the Olympics in 2008, and any Olympics after held by states that attend 2008.
    Guilt by association.
    Human rights apply to all or none, there is no middle ground.
    And Where the hell is the UN? Oh I forgot the UN is China's biggest fan.
    Ban the UN too, useless --cks.
  51. Watercooler Pundit from Regina, Canada writes: The Tibetans are in the way of China's economic growth. Economic growth is behind the vast majority of tragedies around the world - Pollution, The War in Iraq are just two. GREED is destroying us.
  52. Rangzen Bhu from Toronto, Canada writes: Below is link to photos of the butchered Tibetans by Chinese Security Forces recently.

    http://www.stoptibetcrisis.net/photos2.html
  53. Mike Chamberlain from Montreal, Canada writes: M F from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Why don't you give Mr. Bush a call? Go away, son, big guys are talking....

    Hey, M F, now that I know who you are, I'd like to buy you a drink today after work. I'll just wait inf front of t the Chinese consulate until you come out.
  54. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Kevin Wells from United States writes:
    'M F can't understand why the Tibetans aren't more grateful for being subjugated by the Han Chinese. '

    Because articles written by Mr. York are inciting hatred among Chinese and Tibetans, distorting truth and mis-leading Western public.

    I understand perfectly some of Tibetans are not grateful and I am open to discuss with them.
  55. K Z from Canada writes: Al Desulovich, good idea. But wait a second, if China let Tibet go, how about so many Han and other ethnic people living there now, let them pack and go? Then next question is what is territory of Tibet, as per Dalai Lama, it should be Greater Tibet, which includes parts of Gansu, Sichuan, Yunan, Qinhai, where Tibetan are minority. Now you know what I mean.
  56. jamie yavis from Canada writes: kinda interested from Toronto, Canada writes: jamie yavis you said absolutely nothing in 4 paragraphs.....if you are going to refute the article, at least state what form the inaccuracies take. If you backpacked around, yeah, people are nice and it's a wonderful world...but did you really pay attention. In the beginning you sort of qualified yourself by displaying your ability to count to four, but this was countered by a foolish assumption that I was backpacking around. My travels have been extensive to all parts of the globe, extended trips lasting up to several months for business and adventure. My wide-eyed innocence of youth departed a long time ago. Impossilbe tospecify all omissions in the brief space permitted; the article says the trains bring in Chinese that inundating the Tibetan people and eluding to destroying their way of life. Part may be true, but the Chinese I saw coming on the trains were devout Buddhists wanting to pay homage to the monasteries of Drepung, Potala, to name but a few as well as bringing hundreds of Westerner's to see the same. Tibetans, in general terms just don't like foreigners of any type in their country they have, or had a reputation of being an almost secretive hermit state. As for balance, the article does not say anything about the billions of dollars China has invested in the basic infrastructures of Tibet such as schools, roads, tunnels, and communication; much being better than we have in most parts of Canada, and much, much better than that found in the remote parts of Canada. As for identifying the problem: There is Tibet and Tibetans, and there are the Buddhist monks and although the lines can be blurry they are not one and the same. What I saw was Buddhism wanting to keep the people simple and dumb because to ensure they will keep giving a large portion of their money. They don't want an educated free-thinking Tibet. cont
  57. lotusland maritimer from Sault Ste Marie, Canada writes: There are four distinct issues of which we can affect only one. The least important is what didnt spark the riots the Olympics and what to boycott only the ceremonies or the whole thing? Second in which no change can be expected the shameful position of the Canadian Government in effect accepting Chinas annexation of Tibet as well its threatened annexation of Formosa. The third issue the declaration of a partial autonomy of truncated rump Tibet as the riots have unmistakably reminded us that Tibet includes at least parts of four or five other Chinese territories Brecht anyone the Good Woman of Sechuan? I at least never knew that she was also Tibetan not Chinese. Did Brecht know? The Chinese seem to follow his ironic advice after the East German anti Communist uprising, if the East German Communist party has lost the confidence of the East German people then let it elect a new people. The Chinese of course are doing this they have detached huge swaths of Tibetan territory and attached them to Chinese areas much the same as Slovaks have done to Hungarian counties and Romanians as well thereby of course altering the local majority into a minority. This we may call administrative genocide. The other technique is the railway modernisation clear cutting strip mining destroying the agricultural cultural mainstay of the local population and overwhelming the sparse local population by economic and industrialising urbanising main Chinese immigration. So it has nothing to do with the Olympics but everything to do with Brecht. The Tibetans will never become good Chinese Communists even if capitalised therefore destroy their land overwhelm them demographically and the real slaves the main Chinese will of course not rebel but worship the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party not Buddha. So elect a new people docile and enslaved by five thousand years of brainwashing. But we cannot do anything about those processes. 4 We could have let in Tibetans from India.
  58. Mike Chamberlain from Montreal, Canada writes: M F, seriously, I've read Mr. Firstbrook's piece on intergenerational tensions in Tibet. I don't see how that justifies violent suppression of political dissent. Maybe you can enlighten us.

    Perhaps it would also help if you would point to the specific sections of Mr. York's article that you find misleading, rather than simply issuing a blanket condemnation, which doesn't do much to advance your position.
  59. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Mike Chamberlain from Montreal, Canada writes:

    'Hey, M F, now that I know who you are, I'd like to buy you a drink today after work. I'll just wait inf front of t the Chinese consulate until you come out. '

    Mike, my dear friend, you will be disappointed: it is too far to meet you there. Working for Americans (not CIA, unlike Dalai Lama). When you come to Toronto, you can find me in downtown Toronto. Shall we say, Tim Houton under Canadian-Pacific tower?

    I was just trying to focus on this Tibet thing, instead of talking Taiwan, etc.
  60. Johnny LaRue from Second City, Canada writes: Have a look at how China is destroying Tibet's environment:

    http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/03/chinas-environm.html

    Free the truth, free the people, free Tibet!
  61. K Z from Canada writes: Durward Saar, I am overwhelmed by your explosive spins and rants :).

    Then how do you explain the Tibet population grows a lot if a 'slow genocide' is going on?

    Please keep calm when you debate, I am concerned about your health.
  62. vic w from Canada writes: I always the comparison between China and the Nazis ludicrous and obvious exaggeration. The same PR tactics led up to the war on Iraq.
  63. vic w from Canada writes: M F Thank you for actually providing articles as opposed to spinning off into rants. I'd invite you to do it every thread.
  64. Kevin Wells from United States writes:
    M F wrote:
    'Because articles written by Mr. York are inciting hatred among Chinese and Tibetans, distorting truth and mis-leading Western public.
    I understand perfectly some of Tibetans are not grateful and I am open to discuss with them. '

    Oh, I see, not only are the Tibetans ungrateful for the complete subjugation of their lives by Chinese Communist Dictators - but they should also be grateful that, M F from Toronto, - living a life with all the freedoms afforded by a liberal western democracy - are 'open to discuss with them'.

    What a hypocrite.
  65. Maria Loi from Vancouver, Canada writes: Good morning everyone!

    I cannot comment because I don't know enough! Please enjoy your input regardless if you are pro or against!

    Cheers
  66. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Mike Chamberlain from Montreal, Canada writes: 'M F, seriously, I've read Mr. Firstbrook's piece on intergenerational tensions in Tibet. I don't see how that justifies violent suppression of political dissent. Maybe you can enlighten us. Perhaps it would also help if you would point to the specific sections of Mr. York's article that you find misleading, rather than simply issuing a blanket condemnation, which doesn't do much to advance your position. ' The comment section only allows about 2000 words and it is very difficult to explain the Tibetan complexity. I would first suggest that you use Internet, search keyword 'Tibetan History'. That will answer some of your questions. Secondly, I have posted a number of links from BBC, you can have a read. Thirdly, let me state that I am against any political suppression. Lots of Chinese here had such experience. However, some of the tensions generated are the result of economical development, inter-generational and a number of other factors. These are common places all over the China. I do understand that Tibetans have their specific unhappiness. However, I personally think, the best way forward, is for two groups to discuss. I personally has tried to discuss with a number of Tibetans here but it turns out that none of them have even travelled to Tibet (I have not either, but I do visited a number of Tibetan areas in other province). The life of Tibetans they paint are very different from what I see. As for Mr. York's article, on mining, for example, I posted a link from BBC. The part about communist party beng Buhda, is totally just absurd.
  67. Levap K from Burlington, Canada writes: vic w from Canada writes: I always the comparison between China and the Nazis ludicrous and obvious exaggeration. The same PR tactics led up to the war on Iraq
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry to say that it is you who is ludicrous. I guess you never heard about The Black Book of Communism or millions dying in the name of that system. Three times more than victims of Nazism! Historians are equating Nazism with Communisim!
  68. jamie yavis from Canada writes: As for Tibet, has there ever been a free or independent Tibet?

    History says not, or at the very least not for very long. It has been invaded by every neighbour they have, and the British too, so that would seem its normal situation.

    There has also been comments that journalists cannot cover Tibet because of Chinese blockage ... what opportunisitic hogwash!

    Where there is a will there is a way, this is just a convenient coverup for lazy journalism. I noticed the BBC got a crew in to cover what was happening recently.

    And as for internet blockage or information restrictions, yesterday I purposely sent emails peppered with details of Tibet to friends in China and got replies back from them detailing their Tibet thoughts with no restrictions or signs of blockage what so ever.

    We are being fed a lot of misinformation that seems to be the new wave of cheap journalism in Canada.
  69. vic w from Canada writes: Levap K: Hey troll, ever heard of McCarthyism? How about Godwins law? Tear your eyes away from those activist blogs that you're so enamoured with and google it.
  70. lotusland maritimer from Sault Ste Marie, Canada writes: The fourth issue concerns us here in Canada as Canadians. I dont know about you but I was under the impression that several tens of thousands of Tibetans were admitted to Canada during the last few decades who integrated well and are not involved in drugs prostitution terrorism drive by shooting random violence executions etc the usual litany of sins and crimes which those terrible immigrants commit. They arent even a burden on the welfare system as they are all employed and support themselves thank you very much. To my surprise the website of the Canada Tibet Committee outlines a much different picture. Trudeau it seems in his largesse upon the request of the Dalai Lama for Canada to accept some of the several hundred thousand Tibetan refugees living in abject poverty in contiguous Northern India was willing to receive two hundred some odd Tibetans on an experimental basis. Thats it. It suceeded yet there was no follow up. This of course has nothing to do with China nor with Communism or anything else. This is simply and only Canadian immigration policy. It involves merely humanitarian concern for a hundred thousand or so Tibetan refugees from India which seems willing to let them leave. The current Canadian immigration policy seems willing to let in tens of thousands of immigrants from populations which are involved in either terrorist or criminal activies but not Tibetans from India who are involved in neither. Not even in drug trafficing. We cannot rearrange the geography of central Asia nor change the history of China but we can let in a hundred thousand refugees. And that depends only on our own governments not foreign states whom we cannot influence. Might we do something about it during this election process. Demand from all candidates a firm commitment to Tibetan immigration. That is the least we can do and that is something we can do. That at least is in our power.
  71. jer greene from montreal, Canada writes: Did the Tibetans ask for Chinese-communist-style modernization? Why destroy this small civilization of mountain people? What have they done to deserve cultural genocide?
  72. K Z from Canada writes: jamie yavis, your input is very informative with intelligence honesty. Thank you.
  73. Kevin Wells from United States writes: Jamie Yavis wrote:
    'And as for internet blockage or information restrictions, yesterday I purposely sent emails peppered with details of Tibet to friends in China and got replies back from them detailing their Tibet thoughts with no restrictions or signs of blockage what so ever. '

    From the Ottawa Citizen:

    'Average Chinese learned yesterday what the rest of the world has known for nearly a week: that the pro-Tibet demonstrations have spread to two other provinces and security forces have killed four protesters.'

    http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ccd7087a-bcf6-44d5-9a66-a121e616ad12

    Why didn't the CHinese learn anything until yesterday? HMMMMM??

    Could it be because the Authoritarian Dictators in Beijing have total control over all media and can turn it on and off as it suits them?

    They finally realized that they couldn't continue to block news of Tibet because the entire world was talking about it. NOt because there is anything approaching freedom of the press in China, but because they simply couldn't keep it covered up any longer.

    Jamie: Do you doubt the media is controlled by your Communist government?
  74. deliciously uncanadian from Canada writes: 'Mr. Zhang is a member of China's ethnic Han majority, and in an interview in August of 2006, he admitted that he spoke 'just a few words' of the Tibetan language. He regarded the Tibetans as children who must be indoctrinated with a love of China, rather than a love of Buddhism.'

    This indoctrination effort will fail just as badly as Cdn residential schools did and a myriad of other such attempts around the world.

    In fact, it might be even useful to strengthen Tibetan will for cultural survival.

    Ca. 2025 a Chinese President apologizes to the Tibetan people for this outrageous treatment.
  75. cryp- tic from Waterloo, Canada writes: MF from Toronto writes: -- China is giving Tibetans billions of dollars a year. -- They get preferential treatments on education, college and job. -- A medicare system that is built from scratch. -- Millions spent on renovating old monasteries. The amount of aid a year etc.... You call this oppression? How much are you paid by Dalai and his clique? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Must admit MF is far more knowleageble than me on this. Okay, so we accept these points. I just can't help drawing some parallels here with Canada's own issues with our native people and their 'the survival of their culture and their identity' - i.e. the land claim stand-off at Caledonia..... We have untennable problems here - and this is NOT the place to debate them - but maybe it does speak to the OUR RIGHTS to protest without the threat of imprisonment, or being shot in our streets... Journalists have free access without the threat of bodiliy harm - the army is not streaming in by the truckload to quell our clergy or our people - the OPP took a conciliatory approach to preserve the peace as I think we would like to know it.... How would we like mandatory 'patriotic education'. How fortunate that we live with choices - and not oppression....
  76. Nai Woos from Calgary, Canada writes: Many of the complains of Tibetans exists in many parts of China. The authorities go for capitallistic money rather than care for the ordinary people. What is different in Tibet is they have the ears of foreign countries through the Dalai Lama.
    The Han Chinese have no one to blame.
  77. Farm Boy from Big City, Canada writes: jamie yavis - Good post!
  78. Jesse Winger from Calgary Southwest, Canada writes: If ever a country deserved nationhood: it is Tibet.

    I support the oppressed people of Tibet and encourage the bloody Communist Chinese occupiers to get out. The cultural and economic genocide they are attempting to wreck on the people of Tibet will fail.

    Mayber, perhaps, some day China will be free from its own ruthless Communist system, too.
  79. lotusland maritimer from Sault Ste Marie, Canada writes: The hilarity never ends.
    The Chinese are buiding monasteries?
    Ha ha ha ha ha.
    In fact they destroyed over 6000 and left only 13 standing.
    Reduced 2000 monks in one to 180.
    Must be some sort of Chinese new math.
  80. Kevin Wells from United States writes:
    jamie yavis wrote:
    'And as for internet blockage or information restrictions, yesterday I purposely sent emails peppered with details of Tibet to friends in China and got replies back from them detailing their Tibet thoughts with no restrictions or signs of blockage what so ever. '

    Jamie: read this quote:

    'Average Chinese learned yesterday what the rest of the world has known for nearly a week: that the pro-Tibet demonstrations have spread to two other provinces and security forces have killed four protesters.'

    That is online today from another Canadian news source, the Ottawa Citizn.

    Ask yourself, Jamie, why Chinese citizens didn't know what the whole world knew for a week.

    Do you think it might be because the Communist Dictators in Beijing control the media and finally decided that they couldn't continue to hide what the entire world was talking about????
  81. yifanyi chi from Toronto, Canada writes: Let's just peacefully discuss, fight will only block the communication.

    Do you guys ever think: Why so many Chinese speak here again you? They are spies? No!.
    If after 1989 Tiananman event, you guys come here to speak, I believe almost all Chinese will support you(although now, many Chinese have different idea on this event, but at then, it's true). But why now, on Tibet's issue, so many Chinese speak again you?
    I tell you, the reason is because Stupid and Biased western media! Please believe, so many Chinese immigrate to west is because they like here, because they do not like CCP gov.. But after they come here, everyday they see biased media: When sth bad in China happens, then enlarge it, mislead it a lot. When sth good happen, they do not report, or mislead it in wrong direction. Think about it, these Chinese they've lived in China for so many years, they know China is not the same as what you reported, so what will they think.
    Many years ago, in Cold War era, China media also do the same as western media, so we treat Western countries as monster. But now, China's CCP Gov stop doing so, but you western media still continue your Cold War principle.
    Last night, CBC reporter talked with two person, first one is a native Canadian just come back from Tibet, he witnessed very clearly that how minority Tibetan start violence(burn, kill, .....), how the Chinese police do nothing at first(he think maybe this police feared to affect Olympic if do sth); second one is an exiled Tibetan(she said so) in Canada, for many year never return Tibet at all, what will she say for sure is what you want to listen.
    But you see, now all medias just report what the second one said, forget the first witness.
    Aha!!! It's yourself push Chinese to again you! 'The forged, distorted monster China by biased media is not the real China at all'. If you want to know China, go there and live for years, you will believe me.
  82. Jamie Wilson from Englishtown, Canada writes: Jamie Yavis:
    Tibet first emerged as a united kingdom around 600 AD and remained the dominant power in the plateau region for the next 300 years. They remained independent on and off until the early 1700's when the chinese under the Manchu dynasty completed its subjugation of the plateau.
    However, The point is moot. Many independent nations today did not exist in any form until the twentieth century (eg. Finland, Belgium, most of Africa) but that does not negate a people's right to self-determination.
  83. Mike Chamberlain from Montreal, Canada writes: Thank you, M F, I will attempt to enlighten myself further. I admit that I am coming from a position of relative ignorance on the Tibet issue, although I reflexively sympathize with the Tibetans due to the well-documented history of Chinese hard dealing with the Buddhists--and protest in general. That said, I understand that it is a complex issue.

    I would just say that I think you're a bit naive at this point to suggest that the two sides sit down and talk it out. The Chinese government has never seemed willing to do so. Why would they change now?

    And I believe you're talking about the CN, not the CP tower in Toronto. I couldn't tell you if there is a Tim Horton's at the bottom of it, but I wouldn't bet against it!
  84. Gizella Oehm from Toronto, Canada writes: My parents fled Hungary after the 1956 uprising, and as I read this sad tale of the Tibetan struggle for independence - not even so much political independence but the freedom to worship and think as they want, and to preserve the artifacts that support their culture - I am reminded of the stories I heard and the accounts I've read about life under Communism in Europe after the war. Someone above I notice cannot believe that Communism is as 'bad as Nazism' or that as many people were killed. Of course it is. Any oppressive dictatorship, where people are imprisoned, tortured, and killed because they cannot bring themselves to buy into the vision of the rulers, is appalling. And yes, over the years, under Communism, far more people have died than they did under Nazism. In China alone, some 36 million died in 'Mao's long march' during the Chinese Communist revolution. Because China is such a closed community, we have no idea how many people have died since 1949 because of their oppposition to the government. There was the 'cultural revolution' in the '60s that probably killed untold numbers of people. I have read that as of today, every year up to 10,000 people are executed in that country. Millions are in camps of one sort or another (and I believe many of our 'dollar store' products are made by these people). While modern-day Chinese government IS embracing capitalism - the headlong rush after material goods and wealth - its people are 'happier' (after so many years of poverty), does China present a good model for a nation? As China is currently governed and its affairs conducted, within the principles it espouses, it is hardly a nation to be admired. And I hope the Tibetans have some luck pushing back the behemoth. But I fear that it might not be so.
  85. nobel savage from Montreal, Canada writes:

    'Beijing orchestrating Tibet riots'
    Canada Free Press[Friday, March 21, 2008 10:20]

    This is quiet interesting, if its true boy did the PRC make a wrong decision, having an interest in 'modern China' issues for years I can see it being possible of the PRC's thinking. Anyway take a look for yourself;

    http://phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=19922&article='Beijing orchestrating Tibet riots'
  86. D S from Richmond Hill, Canada writes: Paul, Bytown, from Canada writes: ...For a better understanding of the Tibetan history, check out the following:

    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7355
    ------------------------------------------------
    BTW, the above article is an excellent read, for anyone who cares for an accurate historical background.
  87. Joseph T from Victoria, Canada writes: Gizella Oehm from Toronto, Canada writes: My parents fled Hungary after the 1956 uprising, and as I read this sad tale of the Tibetan struggle for independence...

    >>Eastern Europre is replete of examples of people subjugating others throughout history. Hungarians are not well like in Romania even though they have a sizable presence in Timisoara and Cluj. Something about them subjugating the Romanians under the old empire. A significant portion of the Hungarian population themselves have mixed heritage: Mongols bred with the women there when Genghis's men came dashing thru. Your parent's ancestry were from Eurasia: a place with European and Asian blood mixed.

    In due time, Tibetans will be assimulated. Such is the price of modern progress.
  88. K Z from Canada writes: Jamie Wilson, regarding self-determination, how far are you ready to go and what is the limit for the idea? As far as I know, there are more than 3500 races in the world, then we will have 3500 countries? Does Canada allow an independent country in Toronto Chinatown?

    Another Example, if we go with your idea, does 5% Serbians in Kosovo should be allowed to form another country?
  89. Jesse Winger from Calgary Southwest, Canada writes: The oppression the Chinese felt under the Japanese during WWII is exactly what the people of Tibet are feeling now under the Chinese.

    China learned nothing from that experience, it seems, and tried some expansionism of their own in attacking and pillaging Tibet.

    I support the people of Tibet in their struggle for freedom against the Communist Chinese occupation.
  90. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Thank you G&M for this article, at last some journalism rather than reporting!!!

    What did not surprise me:

    The issue of the railroad. I believe the Dalai Lama had made previous comments about how the railroad would be a destructive force as it would make access so much easier, especially for exploitation of resources and for 'tourism', really a huge influx of Chinese to overwhelm the local population. Seems to have come true.

    That China wants to be the 'Buddha' for the people. How naive and sad that is.

    What surprised me:

    March 14, Lhasa: Up to 400 residents and monks attack non-Tibetan businesses and individuals.

    I just can't imagine monks attacking businesses and individuals. I always see them as pacifists and that their protests would be silent sit-ins or 'watches'. I would like to know more about the March 14 events before I believed the monks were a central part of the violence.

    Regardless, it is a very serious time and I wish for the best for the Tibetans.
  91. Spar Brampton from hollier and hornier than thou, Canada writes: Kevin Wells from United States writes: jamie yavis wrote: 'And as for internet blockage or information restrictions, yesterday I purposely sent emails peppered with details of Tibet to friends in China and got replies back from them detailing their Tibet thoughts with no restrictions or signs of blockage what so ever. ' Kevin Wells from United States writes: Jamie: read this quote: 'Average Chinese learned yesterday what the rest of the world has known for nearly a week: that the pro-Tibet demonstrations have spread to two other provinces and security forces have killed four protesters.' That is online today from another Canadian news source, the Ottawa Citizn. Kevin: where did you get this information? from Cadadian news source right? that's precisely the point. you proved it. You don't know the fact, you believed the media and you jumped into conclusion. Most chinese with web access know about this. They also know that this is a very sensitive topic that gornment doesn't want people to discuss it. You know in china, government cannot block everything. and most chinese people are smart enough to know what's really going on. I give you one example here. the tibetans practice a special grusome burials called SKY BURIAL. see the following link. it's tibetan tradition. tourists visiting Tibet before were allowed to take pictures and video and post them on websites before. to protect the Tibetan culture, government has decided to ban this kind of pictures and vidoes, but still allow tibetans to practice this extremely grusome sky burials. the point is, chinese governement can ban all it wants. but people can still post and access information online. BTW, china now has more than 240 millions netizens ranked 1st in the world. link: http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=332000610
  92. Gail C from Toronto, Canada writes: Reading through this article, I realized the grievances expressed by the Tibetans quoted are exactly those of the Indigenous people of Canada - a sacred site, where ceremonies were held, blasted open for gold and silver mines; disappearing forests leaving nothing for traditional medicines; marginalization and isolation from economic development; loss of culture and identity; being reduced to second-class citizens in their own country. All so familiar.

    How can Canadians and their government decry such conditions and support the protests of the Tibetan people, when First Nations in Canada suffer the same despair, and when they rise up in protest, our government jails them?

    Talk about hypocrisy!
  93. Jerry g from Canada writes: It seems to me that most of the comments are focusing on the wrong thing. The prime reason this is happening is the holy mountain and the environment that is being destroyed around them. This is the classic sign of the Chicago school mantra. Everything is privatized and the citizens have no voice or choice on how their lands are being raped for $$'s.

    The Government in this case Communist, but can be our Democratic one too who willingly fund the destruction at the benefit of the private company…Corporatism. This economic displacement of people will allow China to grow and make more junk for us to purchase and store or throw into the landfill. It starts with us buying more and more stuff. Save some of your money..you will need it in the years to come!
  94. Mahatma Gandhi from Calgary, Canada writes: Quoth Mr. Zhang, the regional boss: 'The Communist Party is like the parent to the Tibetan people, and it is always considerate about what the children need,' he said on another occasion. 'The Central Party Committee is the real Buddha for Tibetans.'

    It's a wonder Tibetans have been so restrained.

    Here's a thought: How about ordinary folks boycotting the Olympics. Avoid buying anything from a corporate sponsor of the Olympics. Let the Chinese have their show, let the athletes compete, but make sure you do your best not to buy anything from a corporate sponsor of the Olympic Games. Here they are:

    http://en.beijing2008.cn/90/53/column211995390.shtml .

    Remember, when you buy from these people, you are contributing to the machine that gives power to the likes of Mr. Zhang. Every dollar that you spend elsewhere is one less dollar that Mr. Zhang and his supporters get their hands on. And if you are a shareholder in any of these companies, consider where your profits are coming from.

    Don't wait for governments to act; they won't. But millions of us can act, with serious consequences, just by paying attention when we open our wallets, and considering where our money comes from and where it goes.
  95. tulip7 R from woodbridge, Canada writes: TO: Nai Woos from Calgary, The authorities go for capitallistic money rather than care for the ordinary people. -----------------Have you even been to China? I go back to China every year. What I see is the progress of China and the happy wealthy Chinese. Government have so many new policies to help the poor people (Ordinary people already rich!)
  96. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Jesse Winger from Calgary Southwest, Canada writes:

    'The cultural and economic genocide they are attempting to wreck on the people of Tibet will fail.'

    I am not sure I share your confidence. Give it another 50 years, we will all be watching Hollywood movies, using Chinese manufacturered goods, eat McDonalds, typing in front of computers making democratic comments,.... etc.... If you think the Tibetan kids don't like i-Pod, Video games, eat McDonalds, etc., then go to Tibet and have a good look.

    I think that in the age of globalisation, all these small cultures will eventually be absorbed by bigger ones... French is fighting hard to reverse the trend in the french speaking worlds....
  97. tulip7 R from woodbridge, Canada writes: To Michael Sharp from Japanese plum blossomville., Canada -------USA and the Weston countries too.
  98. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...the bottom line, boys and girls, inspite of the Western noises, is that the Yuan is mightier than the Mandala....
  99. Tom Mayers from mississauga, Canada writes: Free Tibet, then Free Quebec. Why not?
  100. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: The more information that is out the angrier I get. Barbarians! Poor Tibet and poor anyone at the hands of the cruel.

    Time to boycott everything about China. Stop shopping!

    My heart goes out to the Tibetans. Keep the faith. The world is watching.
  101. Winston Smith from Canada writes: Finally, the G&M took a stab at examining the complex issues behind the uprising by the Tibetans. The George Bush analysis in the last few days has been numbing. It is never as simple as 'Freedom versus Oppression', 'Good versus Evil' in the real world.
  102. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: K Z when the Tibetan strikes out in anger ,that is evidence of the success of Chinese assimilation of that Tibetan
  103. F H from Canada writes: 'K Z from Canada writes: Al Desulovich, good idea. But wait a second, if China let Tibet go, how about so many Han and other ethnic people living there now, let them pack and go?'

    Yes. China brought them in by train and can bring them back the same way.

    Understand, here in the West we don't 'let' people go. We give them the freedom to choose to go elsewhere if they want.
  104. F H from Canada writes: 'Shall we say, Tim Houton under Canadian-Pacific tower?'

    Two problems with this. Where is 'Tim Houtoun'? and what is the 'Canadian-Pacific tower'?

    Or do you mean 'Tim Hortons' and the 'CN Tower'?

    Forgive us if we don't believe you live and work were you say you do.
  105. F H from Canada writes: 'If after 1989 Tiananman event, you guys come here to speak, I believe almost all Chinese will support you(although now, many Chinese have different idea on this event, but at then, it's true).'

    Doubtful as many Chinese (in China) don't even know that the Tianaman Square massacre occured as it's been struck from the pages of Chinese history books and censored by the Chinese government from appearing in their areas of the Internet.

    Luckily, the rest of us remember and sorrow for China's people.
    • Posted 21/03/08 at 1:17 PM EDT |