Skip navigation

 Login or Register | Member Centre

Taking Christ out of Christianity

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 1:37 AM EDT 22/03/08

Avant garde pastor teaches a new Christianity where the way you live is more important than beliefs ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. john shantz from Canada writes: This woman's stand is not exactly earthshaking change in the United Church. Most urban congregations are led by pastors with similar views.
    However when the bequests from the old believers run out and the valuable properties sold (after the forced mergers of congregations) where will the funds come from to keep the hierarchy employed?
  2. phil lewis from Canada writes: anti Christ's are not new.
  3. Greg R from Canada writes: It is for this reason that the United Church is doomed. If you are trying to attract people who don't really believe in Gd and Jsus, you will quickly find that those people really don't believe in going to church either.
  4. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: What an Idiot
  5. frederick duquette from Edmonton, Canada writes: People are free to congregate around any value system they wish, however, a value system which removes Christ from Christianity is not Christian: they are outside the core values that define the Christian experience, as much playing soccer with hockey sticks and a football cannot be defined as soccer. They can do as they please, but please leave Christianity out of it.
    The claimed scholarly consensus regarding the bible as a human project is unsupported and does not necessarily negate a divine aspect: it is a human testament of a divine tragedy (crucifixion) and triumph (resurrection). Go ahead, write your own 'bible', but stop treating ours as if it was crass propaganda.
    Declining church attendance is long overdue and a welcome development. No longer do people attend because they have to or it is socially unacceptable not to. Those who do attend are genuine in their beliefs and do so with free choice.
    Churches are making a huge mistake if they confuse success with numbers, catering to the whims of a fickle public., tying themselves down with plant, property and big salaries. That pastor has big expences and lifestyle to finance and therefore an axe to grind. As such, the core values of her ministry are lost.
  6. Elaine In BC from Canada writes: Hallelujah! A pastor whose teachings are based on morality, not mythology! Jesus was a real person, and a really great person, but not an imaginary deity. The ideals he tried to teach are no part of the so-called Christian God-worshipping. 'Love one another.' 'Treat others as you would like to be treated.' The Christian Church and its followers defile these teachings in every way.
  7. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Seems some of the traditional faithful already feel threatened.

    This is a very heady and courgeous woman. Put good living back into faith ? What a terrific idea. It's not for the meek of heart. It's for those courageous enough to live by the rules and to make the world a better place NOW !!! not wait around for heaven and the judges score. 51% vs 49 % LOL !! Yer in ..........

    What IS the good of the sacred scrolls if we rob, cheat, steal and plunder from our neighboors and then run rightiously to a special building (the concept of alter), on Sunday ?

    It's an old theme but a new approach. A challenge.

    I intend to get that book. It should be a good and enlightening read.

    Of course I don't go to church anyway but ............
  8. Bart Farquart from Vanillaland, Canada writes:
    Obviously Christianity has a wide variety of expressions in the world.

    However what Rev. Vosper is promulagating sounds like the vague humanitarian agnosticism that is so fashionable in much of the 21st century west.

    Canada is a free country and Rev. Vosper's church is a voluntary organizaton. She can run her church any way she pleases. The pieces will fall where they may.
  9. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    I've never really understood the appeal of The Guy on a Stick.

    I mean, I get the sacrifice and forgiveness and all that but the Leviticus stuff with God firing lightning bolts at the sinners, smiting left and right?

    That part bores me.

    Buddhism makes more sense.
    It doesn't have a god per se.

    Buddha would be amused that if you can take the Christ out of Christianity, you can also take the Buddha out of Buddhism.

    Of course you can.
  10. Charles Smith from United Kingdom writes: If one wants to start a religion, one is free to do so. Why plagiarise God's Word? Have these people got no originality? I'm not so sure this crowd believes in anything. Regardless, these folk will no doubt attract a few people searching for something.
  11. Steve B from BC Interior, Canada writes: Happy is the person that believes and receives the Word of God, rather than blindly following someone that has no sense of God's love and plan.
    The bible talks of God's wonderful plan of salvation for mankind, which is through Jesus Christ.
    I have found it is much easier to believe what the scriptures say about Jesus, rather than proudly twist the scriptures to suit my own fancy. The book of Revelations (in the bible) warns us to not add to (or take away from) God's word, or God will remove our name from the book of life.
    As we think of Easter, it is good to read the book of John in the bible. It helps explain God's love and His plan for our lives.
    Everyone has their own opinion, but it is God's opinion that really counts.
  12. Jim Cohoon from Canada writes: Reading the article, I find it hard to see how 'Christ is being taken out of Christianity'. To the contrary, this 'new' approach to Christianity seems to be trying to put Christ back into Christianity -- that is, the true spirit of Christ, which is obviously missing from many 'Christian' teachings and churches. Christ essentially preached about love and ethics, not 'beliefs' or doctrine or rituals or man-made churches. Jesus did not say: 'Make an idol of me when I die, and worship me and forget about what I actually preached.' Most, if not all the 'beliefs' and practices referred to as 'Christian' are man-made inventions that came after the death of Christ, for reasons we can all speculate on. G.K Chesterton once commented on the obvious absence of the true spirit of Christ in much of modern Christianity (and a probable cause of that absence) when he wrote: 'The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.' Maybe (finally) after 2,000 years all those who call themselves 'Christian' should (if they haven't already) muster a little moral courage and give the actual ideals of Christ another try -- you may actually find them good for your soul.
  13. Rob Gilgan from Canada writes: Hmmm, I thought crass propaganda had a nice ring to it.
  14. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: I'm not sure if Christ is as much a problem as the long-winded preaching, homo-erotic perversity, dogmatic gibberish, hypocrisy and conformism.
  15. Reality Check from Edmonton, Canada writes: Who cares...

    If you are so weak that you need to lean on religion...

    Good on ya... The MEAK will NOT inherit the earth, their sorry asses will be in church while those of us who can think for ourselves will keep things going...
  16. Able Bodied Man from Colony of Van Isle, Canada writes:
    Was Christ ever in the Untied Church?
  17. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Jim Cohoon from Canada writes:

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Great Chesterton quote - a propos.

    Thanks for your insight..............

    Interesting 'thought' topic for a change ............ hopefully it's elevated subject matter willl keep out the pikers ............
  18. Wulfher SkullSplitter from Canada writes: Good bye dogma. To hell with those who will not let it die!
  19. John Longshot from Canada writes: The United Church has evolved to become a heathen institution.
  20. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Paul Martin and a wack of his Liberals (~30%, I think) were devout Roman Catholics.

    That's creepy.

    There is hardly a more fundamental Christian church than the Roman Catholic Church.

    Isn't it curious that Liberal, socially progressive people attack the CPC because of their faith?
    That's creepier.
  21. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Amusing typo alert!!!
    Whoop whoop whoop.

    'Able Bodied Man from Colony of Van Isle, Canada writes:
    Was Christ ever in the Untied Church?'

    Amusing typo alert!!!
  22. larry hallatt from Canada writes: This woman seems to understand far more than many who profest being religious what is important in the world. She is a modern thinker who embraces using the human mind and will to create a civil society..
  23. joe q. taxpayer from Canada writes: Hey Michael Sharp, can I ask what politics has to do with this article? Always trying to reduce every article and discussion on this site into liberal or conservative viewpoints - now that's creepy.
  24. Elaine In BC from Canada writes: Michael Sharp: What? How much wine have you had tonight? What does CPC stand for and what does Paul Martin have to do with this article?
  25. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, British Columbia, Canada writes: Why not just admit that religion per se is an outmoded waste of time and energy? Why try to hang on to the empty clothing of a corpse? Move on! Plenty of people live rich, moral, good lives without frittering away any portion of their lives on any religion, even one as 'progressive' as this pastor.
  26. The Wight from Canada writes: Michael Sharp:

    'Isn't it curious that Liberal, socially progressive people attack the CPC because of their faith?'

    I don't find it curious at all.

    Who is more likely to be more fanatical in their beliefs, a random RC or a random Evangelical?
  27. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, British Columbia, Canada writes:
    CPC?
    Climate Prediction Center?
    Communist Party of China?
    Canadian Paralympic Committee?
    Canadian Pallet Council?
    Caspian Pipeline Consortium?
    Circuit Protective Conductor

    What?
  28. William Robertson from Hamilton, Canada writes: Zealots need to be given a wide berth. This lady doesn't sound like a zealot, only someone who believes that there are alternative interpretations to Christianity - hers and her followers being that it's more important to be concerned about how you live and treat others than worrying about the trappings of pomp and circumstance. On that point they are right, and they are by no means radical or even new in their thoughts, just getting some recognition of their POV. If we were all concerned more about how we treated others there would be fewer 'Christians' beating the be-jesus out of each other over whatever the righteous issue of the day is. In fact, IMHO, some of the best of our fellow travellers on planet earth are not those who attend the temple on a regular basis, but rather those who through their thought, word, and deed are every day advancing the quality of life, through acts both large and small, for the inhabitants of spaceship earth who touch their daily lives. The only ones to be feared in this world are those who practice the view that there is only one way - theirs. Finally, the irony of what seems to be lost on many of the contributors here is that this lady and her flock do all of this under the auspices of an organization founded on worshipping the Holy Trinity and in 'The House of God'. Whether they leave those words out is not so important as is how they live their own lives. Do they practice what they preach?
  29. The Wight from Canada writes: Brad Reddekopp:

    CPC?

    Conservative Party of Canada. It's the party that replaced the old Reform Party AND the Progressive Conservative Party when they merged.
  30. steve kirton from Moscow, Russian Federation writes: Ah yes, but we’re so much smarter these days aren’t we? Smarter and certainly much more informed than those superstitious dolts who wrote the bible, or the guys who came up with all those math and physics laws (what were their names anyway?) way back when, and the ones who wrote all those exceeding long winded volumes on philosophy, rhetoric, literature, poetry etc. And progressive? I am in AWE of our progressive stature in Canada these days. In fact we’re so progressive and so much smarter and so much more informed, that we feel perfectly empowered to write off 2000 years of history in one fell swoop. Unlike those who’ve gone before us, we're much more enlightened on all the big questions of history, our origins and those of the planet. But we do like those statutory religious holidays- I mean, who doesn’t enjoy a Friday off? We do like setting up Christmas trees, exchanging gifts and all that- we just want another reason to do it. Like, we like all that stuff. So we get right into the spirit just like those gullible believers. Just what are we celebrating? We’re not sure, but give us some time and we’ll think of something. Let’s see, since it’s now Easter, how about “Glorious hope has risen today, Ahahahahahleluuuya”!!!?? Sure, that’ll do. Now let the festivities begin!
  31. Gord Schneider from Edmonton, Canada writes: You cannot take Christ out of Christianity, how absurd can you get? If the United Church wants to go that route, more power to it and good riddance! I was a confirmed member of the organization from the age of 16 when I was confirmed and am disgusted with what I see of it now. Needless to say I no longer belong to it's 'fellowship'.
    Christianity is not about some kind of soft, warm, feel-good, touchy, religion where everybody does what feels good in their own eyes. The ancient Jews tried that and it didn't work. Good Friday should tell us all what Christianity means and if it doesn't, well.....there's always the United Church. Personally I'm offended that the organization is even using the word 'Church' in it's name. There are definite moral laws in Christianity that came from God, not man and they cannot be changed. We are all creations of God, and as such, subject to His laws whether we like it or not. Grow up kids. This is not funny because there are lives at stake in the mess this 'church' is making of itself. Real Christianity has been around for 2000 years and will not, indeed can not just up and fade away, though people can and will. We're all mortals, which means we'll all die one day, and we'd better make some good, sound moral choices before that happens....the consequences of not doing so are horrendous.
  32. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Jim Cohoon from Canada writes: Reading the article, I find it hard to see how 'Christ is being taken out of Christianity'. To the contrary, this 'new' approach to Christianity seems to be trying to put Christ back into Christianity

    Good morning: Perhaps that post nails it. We can all be here a lifetime debating, but I beleive the message was lost by individual corporations (churches) and their employees (the priests-preachers...) for selfish control of finances and mind control.

    For some reason, people refuse to READ on their own, and listen to different people with their own 'interpretations' of the Book. I prefer to read on my own, and there is NO NEED for interpretation. It is as clear as the driven snow.

    Don't kill, don't steal. don't lie, don't judge, share, love and help your neighbour, honour your parents, forgive, settle feuds before coming to church, don't be envious, Take great care of your family, don't stack up wealth to the detriment of family and friends......pretty straight forward stuff...I can go on and on...we don't need to 'listen' to someone else's observations-just read, believe, and practise! So much other stuff...
  33. George S from Toronto, Canada writes: I have been taught to pray by some older men and women and I do it their way which works for me now since I have been practicing it for a number of years now. I pray to my Higher Power and years ago I asked my friends if they pray to Jesus and they told me to pray to whatever works for me, Jesus, Allah... whatever works. I asked one of my friends what he thought of JC and he told me, 'I think he was a great man but I don't try to define my Higher Power'. I have always followed this friends teachings on my spiritual journey and it is working. I don't try and limit my Higher Power by defining it in human terms, I have been taught to accept that their is something much greater then us out their and to submit my own will to my Higher Powers. I am a slow learner but my Higher Power accepts me. I think anyone can believe in whatever- all that matters for me is how well I get along with my fellow human beings. I am finding a lot of peace in my spiritual journey. Peace be with you.
  34. Mei-Xing Xu from Canada writes: the guy is right, Jesus is not a God, not part of some polytheistic pagan trinity, nor does God have the need to have children.
  35. Jamie Wilson from Englishtown, Canada writes: R. Carriere:

    I agree. Go find god on your own. If you need someone else to tell you what god wants of you your following him/her, not god
  36. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Jamie Wilson from Englishtown, Canada writes: R. Carriere:
    I agree. Go find god on your own. If you need someone else to tell you what god wants of you your following him/her, not god

    Morning Jamie: Simplistically stated, perhaps people go about 'church' backwards. Maybe Book reading, searching, studying, and understanding should be first, then an interviewing of a church (which means the following-NOT the building) and its Leaders to see if they fall into the doctrine to which you believe and read about and trust.

    This could be, really is, a painstaking process! Much better than the 'sheep' approach-or just following the previous generations out of habit and ease.....although that also works well for some.

    It's also good to be around people who have the same belief systems and comforting in times of loss, or difficult times. Maybe if most belonged to a group after study, there would be a less need for therapists, shrinks, alcohol, and drugs......just maybe.

    .
  37. c rob from Canada writes: For what it's worth not every Christian group once had the image of Christ that we have had for hundreds of years now. A mighty cusade launched on European soil established this doctrinal view and it has held strong ever since. At its core Christianity has values and a tenet for living. Is it not better to try to live according to teachings than merely follw the trappings as though they were somehow new - which they are certainly not. The notion of the virgin birth or being the Son of God is not new. Nor is redemption from the death of another. These are trappings. And I for one don't need them because, frankly, I feel the words and the teachings are powerful enough all on their own.
  38. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: The article is far from clear , are we taking about taking Christ out of Christianity, or ptting him back in.
    The theology of the Christian Churches is at odds with many of the teachings of Jesus Mainstream Christian churches have failed to deal with the information discovered in the mid 20th century , the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Nag Hamadi Library , which shed tremendous light on Jesus's community and miracles .The Jesus Seminar has done great work to establish what is true from false in the Bible , relating to the life of Jesus .
    Many Christian churches worship the messanger , while ignoring the message.
  39. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Canada writes: I don't know how she fills up a service without any references to the things that make up traditional Christian services, but I hope the tendancy spreads.

    I would love to go to a church where you could have wholesome fellowship and all the singing and uplifting (genuine) morale boosting - the real function of a church, without the divisive, anachronistic teachings from an old book of dubious origins.

    I love the ambience of churches, but there's no way I'm going to subject my family to a bunch of fairy tales and scary stories designed to frighten you and make you ripe for generalized manipulation.
  40. Jamie Wilson from Englishtown, Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes

    Hi
    Just wanted to respond to your post so you wouldn't think I was dismissing you.
    Most of my posts are simplistic (even on a conceptual level) because I don't have the time for longer responses. I do these usually in the morning before work, or occasionally, during short breaks from work.
    I'd love to take some time to respond to others but I need money more than I need intellectual stimulus (left myself open there). Thanks for your interest. Gotta go.
  41. C J from Canada writes: the way you live is more important than beliefs

    Don't know if it's mroe important, but it's certainly as important.
    Ever heard of not practising what you preach?

    Too many of us are doing just that regardless of which religion we believe.
  42. benjamin barr from CORNWALL, Canada writes: a ship without a rudder, does not sail. The new age groupies are in the dark.
  43. Peter M from Out there, Canada writes: Elaine In BC from Canada writes: Hallelujah! A pastor whose teachings are based on morality, not mythology! Jesus was a real person, and a really great person, but not an imaginary deity. The ideals he tried to teach are no part of the so-called Christian God-worshipping. 'Love one another.' 'Treat others as you would like to be treated.' The Christian Church and its followers defile these teachings in every way.

    Amen sister
  44. Blue Nose from Canada writes: Elaine and Peter M, in promoting JC's message I suppose you'll have no problem promoting that he asked us to love the sinner and not the sin. Or that the prostitutes he brought into the fold were encouraged to reject their sinful lifestyles?
    As much as many of you accuse the 'fundys' of twisting the message, you seem to forget that you are as guilty of it.
    JC may have promoted loving those who were drug users or homosexuals, but he also would have done his utmost to have them stop such lifestyles as they were seen as sinful.
    The lady preacher will have a place reserved for her...unfortunately for her its down on level 6 and not cloud 9.
  45. Zoltan Manyoki from Kanata, Canada writes: 'Theologians asked to comment on her book said they wouldn't until they've read it.'

    This must be a shocker for the GM.
  46. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: the way you live is more important than beliefs - how refreshing and profound at the same time.

    How one lives their live - treating others how they would treat themselves evokes a global approach to living. It doesn't mean just the neighbour you know but how your actions in everyday live effect others, even the ones you don't know or see.
  47. Atlantic Geezer from Canada writes: I don't need the 'walking on water', I don't need 'the rising from the dead. I don't need any of the stuff that tries and make this greatest of men anything but the greatest of men. He is great because of his substance, his message, his teachings. Islam regards him as the prophet of love and in this instance I totally agree with Islam.
  48. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    Let us bow our heads and pray to the great thingy in the sky!

    A similar philosophy made General Motors what it is today. There marketing is more important than product.

  49. Sue Hickey from Grand Falls-Windsor, Canada writes: Taking the Christ out of Christianity - there are many things I disagree with, but that isn't one of them! Many people refuse to accept that the nasty parts of how people have been practicing their faith throughout the centuries are not part of what Christ himself taught. Rev. whatsername seems to forget, conveniently, that much of the Bible is not to be taken literally but was written in terms of imagery, symbols, myth and allegory, so that the people of the day could understand and remember it better. Take the Virgin Birth, for example. It's not about physical virginity but to emphasize the purity and importance of Mary. Even St Augustine realized the nature of Biblical texts as allegory. And as for the whiny atheist types, remember that we're talking about a present-tense way of thinking. No totally secular society has survived generations. The closest thing is Communist China and North Korea, paragons of enlightenment and human rights - hah! As for the Rev's take on suffering, it's a part of living anyway. Even the Buddha knew that.
  50. Jesse Winger from Calgary Southwest, Canada writes: Why don't we just admit the 'deity' thing is a big flop and start talking to one another without the religion?

    Human problems need human solutiions.
  51. Lyn Alg from Canada writes: I find it incredible by reading this mornings' 'posting' re this article that there are still so many normally intelligent Canadians who are naive, ignorant, and infantile when it comes to the subject of believing in supernatural powers like God and the Boogey-man. There really is no difference between the two. Both were created by man in his own image. The aphorism that states , '..a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for..?', explains succinctly why many in the Christian FLOCKS still blindly follow the preachings of the jackals who conduct weekly services in their places of 'money-collecting' whoreship. Surely, there are more tangible, meaningful 'straws' that you can grasp for than a figment of your imagination. Grow up people. This is the 21st century - duh . I, for one, am a firm believer in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. What a pitiful, pitiful bunch of blind mice.
  52. Rene L from Somewhere, Canada writes: Gord Schneider from Edmonton, Canada writes: Personally I'm offended that the organization is even using the word 'Church' in it's name. There are definite moral laws in Christianity that came from God, not man and they cannot be changed. We are all creations of God, and as such, subject to His laws whether we like it or not.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I couldn't disagree more with you... the church/God does not own morality. Morality superceds any religious dogma but religion continually tries to hijack what they construe the moral highground and perverts morality for 'religious' reasons (i.e crusades, Taliban/Al-Quada etc, etc,).
  53. george carlin from United States writes: And just how many people attend this silly woman's ''church''? The word is probably parishoner - no s on the end.
  54. ralph sutton from Simcoe Ontario, Canada writes: Christianity without Christ is , humanism, when there is no relationship between God and the believer then there is only behaviourism nothing more . The essense of Christainity is Christ and his relationship to his followers and God. Imagine Communism without Carl Marx, or Satanism without Satan , capitalism without capital . Wherther or not you are a believer is not the issue , if one removes the central element from any philosophy or dogma all you have is ritualistic behaviourism with no heart in it . Why not porno without rampent sex ? The entire thing is none sense , but some people will believe or do just about anything thses days even if it is foolishness
  55. Stephen Penney from St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada writes: If the United Church thinks it's failing now it'll be dust if it abandons God. People will look for God where they can find Him - they haven't found Him in the United Church and it looks like the United Church isn't interested in correcting that.
  56. Jim J from Canada writes: So, some 'woman' from Toronto is going to re-write the gospel as she sees fit. Good luck.

    And what's with all the bitter anti-Christianity people on here? Seems like they are just happy when they have something negative to say.

    Did you ever notice Christians don't really care how you attack them but if you were ever in dire need we'd be the first ones to help you?

    Have a great Easter everyone. It's a big weekend for some of us.
  57. Mark H from Indy, United States writes: You can't be Christian without believing in Christ being the son of God. Livinig like this lady recommends is called Gnosticism; it's been around for 2000 years of so. Not exactly a new way of thinking - but it makes for a nice headline, G&M.
  58. Kenneth K. Seibel from Toronto, Canada writes: I couldn't be bothered to read the book, I'll just wait for the movie. Oh wait, it's already been done... here it is, Monty Python's Life of Brian.
  59. Carl C. from Canada writes: A christian pastor who wants to remove the word christ... Whatever you think about christianity, i think there is something that does not fit with what the pastor wants to do...
  60. Gary Casey from Canada writes: The priests, ministers and the so called experts(phd's in theology) do not understand the bible. They are not meant to! Did not Christ himself talk about the need for a living master?
  61. ryan mann from mississauga, Canada writes: I always find it very interesting that even though we call ourselves Christians and profess our faith to GOD, we always find different ways of changing it to our liking. Every man is their own island and every man has his/her own opinion. But take a look around you. We argue about less people going to church and believe the only way to do that is the change the service change what we preach and change how we praise. I might be wrong but in the multicultural country of ours. Do the Muslins, Hindus or Buddhist worship any differently from how they did 10, 20 or even 100 years ago? We were thought at a young age that we worship a true and only God but when things go wrong or bad we want to change that belief. I don't see the other religions doing that. Yes our numbers are declining and that is pretty sad but instead of changing it to be more hip or more social to bring back the lost sheep won’t it be better to find the lost sheep and ask them why they left and show them that what they once believe in is the truth. Don’t give me the answer that it’s to strict to follow and they have no wiggle room well look around the world and see what they do. Is it any worst than the Christian religion? Yes we lost something but it’s not people in pews its FAITH.
  62. J M from Ottawa, Canada writes: They nailed Christ to a tree for suggesting that people be nice to one another.

    Ever since, he's never really been a part of the 'Christian' church.

    Just be nice to one another.

    That is all.
  63. Gord Lewis from - other, Canada writes: Please refresh my memory on the United Church . . . is it everything they believe in, or is it nothing?
  64. Andrew Slater from Canada writes: The woman does not understand Christianity, which is about a relationship with Christ. You cannot take Him out of it. It cannot exist without Him. As well she does not understand that how you behave is completely dependent upon what you believe; your world view ultimately dictates your behaviour.
  65. bob saunders from Belleville Ontario, Canada writes: Wow the United Church, or at least that one is becoming more and more like the Mormon Church. Imagine teaching or preaching that the way you live, actions count more than mere words or beliefs. Good on this lady.
    I knew a Catholic priest that unbeknown to his church believed this very thing. Father Potanko truly believed in JC, but always taught that how you lived your life was more important than your beliefs.
  66. Uncle Fester from Narnia, Ont., Canada writes: And you stare at me
    In the Jesus Christ pose
    Arms held out
    Like you've been carrying a load
    And you swear to me
    You don't want to be my slave
    But you're staring at me
    Like I need to be saved
  67. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: to Michael sharp, who writes 'Paul Martin and a wack of his Liberals (~30%, I think) were devout Roman Catholics.
    Isn't it curious that Liberal, socially progressive people attack the CPC because of their faith?
    That's creepier. '

    They only admit a 'certain' christianity to attract the fools who believe it is important to have 'believers' in government. You know that, give me a break.

    In North America, more in US than here, to be in contention for govt and to admit being a non-believer is just not in the cards ---- YET.

    And, as far as you claiming a bit of buddhism---ha---you----in a pigs' eye.

    As for this story----It's called life with morals, reverend, morals we all share and all have access to, without going to any 'church'.

    However, I applaud her courage to step up to the plate, just disagree with her venue.

    Yet, on second thought, maybe a good way to start whittling away at god-belief, one step at a time and from within.

    Hmmmm, maybe I like it

    There is no god, we are here on our own.

    We, alone, will make or break humanity and civilization.
  68. Ivan Patrick from Canada writes: Translation:

    We have to change what we believe, or we'll be out of job.

    Now THAT'S faith!
  69. Joan Forsey from Toronto, Canada writes: This article says that 'In Canada, where 75 per cent of the population self-identifies as Christian, only about 16 per cent attend weekly services.' With churches like West Hill United, and ministers like the Rev. Gretta Vosper, is it any wonder?

    In recent years, we've been told that Jesus was gay, that he married Mary Magdalene (maybe Jesus was a woman!), that he didn't walk on water (the Sea of Galilee was frozen at the time but, oddly enough, contemporaries didn't notice), that he didn't die on the cross, and that he didn't rise from the dead. And the BBC even reported that he didn't perform miracles and his body may have been thrown to the dogs.

    Good grief. Next thing you know, Jesus will be the subject of cartoons. I wonder if the Globe and Mail will publish them
  70. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: to Jim, who writes 'And what's with all the bitter anti-Christianity people on here? Seems like they are just happy when they have something negative to say.

    Did you ever notice Christians don't really care how you attack them but if you were ever in dire need we'd be the first ones to help you?'

    Jim Jim, don't be ridiculous----It is your particular kind of crap (evident in your post) that pumps energy into the growing ANTI-RELIGION movement.

    Christianity is only one of many outdated god-belief systems that need to be swept away.

    We need to come out of the caves of superstition and take a big, human breath together.

    Then we can get on with our collective task ---- saving our planet and our civilization, without the constraining noose of religious dogma.

    ps The atheist movement is in the throes of throwing out the very term 'atheist'. A name pasted on to non-believers by grumpy 'faithful'. One name floating around is being a 'bright'.

    The 'bright' movement-----how's that you grumpy, holier-than-thou, god-believer.
  71. Liam Smith from Canada writes: Gary Casey from Canada writes: The priests, ministers and the so called experts(phd's in theology) do not understand the bible. They are not meant to! Did not Christ himself talk about the need for a living master?

    The bible is written by people. It is a story. It is based on other, older religious stories; Babylonian, Jewish, Kemetic (ancient Egyptian). It contradicts itself because it is the word according to apes. Not the word according to God. It was altered to fit the uses of the Church throughout the centuries. To the average person it is next to useless in this day in age. What good does it do to have Christ (spelled KRST on a pre-Christian Greek tomb) forgive my sins after I die. The real problem is that zealous religious people don't understand the bible. To be sure some priests and scholars don't either. Who here knows that Jesus was just a metaphor until about the 3rd century when elements within the Christian Church decided to make a power grab in Europe? I do. Suddenly, Jesus was a real man and the bible was his real story . . . for the plebeians: If you are in charge of a persons' afterlife then you are in charge of them during life too.

    The church would do a lot of good for itself to relegate Christ back to his place as a metaphor for the good in each person as opposed to holding him up high to show humans that they aren't good enough for God's Green Earth.
  72. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Lyn Alg from Canada writes: I find it incredible by reading this mornings' 'posting' re this article that there are still so many normally intelligent Canadians who are naive, ignorant, and infantile......
    ----

    And that sums up quite nicely how the small (L) liberal mind thinks and acts.

    When something does not fit in their wheelhouse-be that a belief system other than 'if it feels good do it,' or doesn't agree with other left issues such abortion, SSM, drug usage, .....whatever, then the attack mode goes into full gear with ad hominems and whatever other weapon they have at their disposal. It is becoming a disturbing trend.

    Instead of just respecting someone else's view, the juvenile attack appears to be the preferred mode of operation. Why can't one just say, 'I don't agree with your point of view because..........'

    It just appears, more and more, that any belief that is not 'progressive'
    ( an interesting choice of words..as is 'pro-choice'....) becomes an agressive attack against whomever does not buy into the 'progressive' philosophy.
    .
  73. h t from toronto, Canada writes: I am glad you qualified your comments as 'Western World'. Take a look at the growth of Jesus lovers in the 'Global South' and you will see that the core belief in the Scriptures has invigorated the church in countless countries. In the next ten years you will even see Indian states that have a Christian majority as the gospel transforms the lives of untouchables and scheduled castes. The atheist preacher who wants a platform to preach her dogma seems to need a church as it appears there aren't enough atheists around that will actually pay her salary. She has to lie and deceive her way into a Christian organizaton so she can get paid.
  74. Uncle Fester from Narnia, Ont., Canada writes:
    Three in one,
    one in three,
    the crutch of Christianity.
  75. Wayne Forbes from Brantford, Canada writes: I am growing rather tired of pastors in Christian churches denying Jesus or God and yet persisting in saying that they are Christians. Being a Christian, a follower of Jesus, means believing in Him, and the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Anything less means you are not a Christian and should not claim that you are. You can't have it both ways - a comfortable job in God's house, and denying Christ. It doesn't work that way in the secular world, and it shouldn't work that way in the church either.

    He is Risen, praise God, He is Risen!
  76. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    Right on Liam, however, you have to be more one- liner with god-believers, As soon as they see long paragraphs filled with 'anti-dogma' they turn off and spout platitudes, back at you.

    zing them with honest one-liners, like----I dunno----my favourite

    There is no god

    or

    What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

    or---- zing in some good quotes----no one argues with those

    'Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.'
    Thomas Jefferson

    'It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.'
    Sir Arthur C. Clarke
  77. R Keller from Canada writes: I remember years ago a friend of mine (an atheist) described the Unitarian church as 'a halfway house for atheists'.

    It appears the United Church of Canada (or at least some congregations) has also become one.
  78. Uncle Fester from Narnia, Ont., Canada writes: Christianity is a simple religion. Believe that Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your savior and you will go to heaven. The rest of humanity goes to hell. It is cut and dry.
  79. Liam Smith from Canada writes: It's totally irrelevant whether there is a god or no. Science will never prove nor disprove god . . . which is fine because god doesn't intervene to smite the disbelieving. If he/she/it was actually anything like the god from scripture, there would be no doubt. Despite the fact that I am not religious what-so-ever, I think pronounces atheists or those who prefer to identify themselves as skeptics or brights are doing themselves a disservice by attacking the notion of god. It can't be proved either way and it is just fueling a battle when what we need to do is find common ground.

    Richard Dawkins may be a spark plug of an intellectual but he doesn't know how to talk to the masses. He attacks God with as a personal vendetta not with the clear head that skeptics like to pride themselves on.

    Plus there is nothing wrong (in fact there is probably something right) with having a spiritual connection to the life and to our planet.
  80. Bruce Banner from Toronto, Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada - cut the crap. There is no 'growing anti-religion movement'. Just because you wish it doesn't make it so.

    Great story by the G&M on the Easter weekend. Nothing like offending people to 'up' the readership on a long weekend. Publish the Danish cartoons on Ramadan next.

    As for Rev. Gretta Vosper, West Hill's minister (who hold's a masters degree in divinity - ooooh!) seems like a little bit of knowledge did a lot of harm. Oh well, what do you expect from the United Church? Why don't they cut to the chase and worship a golden calf?

    As for all the 'bright' believers in science. It may interest them to know that even Neil Armstrong (an Astro-Physicist) was more excited to stand on the steps of the Temple Mount than on the moon.
  81. Sam Smeads from Canada writes: Christianity is socialism at it's best. That's why i never understood why the right trumpets it. Hypocrits.
  82. Liam Smith from Canada writes: h t from toronto, Canada writes: I am glad you qualified your comments as 'Western World'. Take a look at the growth of Jesus lovers in the 'Global South' and you will see that the core belief in the Scriptures has invigorated the church in countless countries. In the next ten years you will even see Indian states that have a Christian majority as the gospel transforms the lives of untouchables and scheduled castes. The atheist preacher who wants a platform to preach her dogma seems to need a church as it appears there aren't enough atheists around that will actually pay her salary. She has to lie and deceive her way into a Christian organizaton so she can get paid.

    You don't know what you're talking about. The vatican doesn't know what to do about the South American Catholics. Many of the South American Catholics feel left behind by a church that doesn't care for them and is more concerned with it's place in Europe than the poor and needy from Mexico to Chile.
  83. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: And to R. Carriere who blurts 'It just appears, more and more, that any belief that is not 'progressive'
    ( an interesting choice of words..as is 'pro-choice'....) becomes an agressive attack against whomever does not buy into the 'progressive' philosophy. '

    Well mr carriere, could it be that every belief system on the planet is, at this moment, embroiled in, or preparing to embroil itself in some kind of monstrous retrogressive battle with some other belief system.

    yah man, that's so progressive of them. Give me non-religious progress everytime.

    Truly, the small dashes of good, we sometimes enjoy, in more peaceful times, is always, and historically due to progressive, fair-minded 'bright' lights in our short history.

    Never from dogma-drenched conservative authoritarians.
  84. Liam Smith from Canada writes: Bruce Banner from Toronto, Canada writes: As for Rev. Gretta Vosper, West Hill's minister (who hold's a masters degree in divinity - ooooh!) seems like a little bit of knowledge did a lot of harm. Oh well, what do you expect from the United Church? Why don't they cut to the chase and worship a golden calf?

    Let's all be ignorant bigots. Woohoo!! Knowledge is bad! Knowledge is bad! Knowledge is bad! Knowledge is bad!
  85. Gary Casey from Canada writes: To Liam Smith: If you know of a priest/minister or theologian who TRULY understands the Bible let me know...OK. On some points I agree with you on others I do not. Does it matter?
  86. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Canada writes: The problem is there is something bigger, something unexplainable (because we are part of it), and prayer, or 'meditation' does work and does have power.

    But it has nothing at all to do with the Bible. Au contraire.

    So ditch it already. I'll second the 'Amen, sister!' of a previous poster.
  87. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Liam says 'Richard Dawkins may be a spark plug of an intellectual but he doesn't know how to talk to the masses. He attacks God with as a personal vendetta not with the clear head that skeptics like to pride themselves on.'

    That is the point of his 'battle' Liam. The 'four horsemen', translation--concerned scientists and humans, have decided to voice their views in the same terms so many of the religious use.

    They wouldn't be heard otherwise

    The simple fact we know their names now, and their books are centre stage at Chapters and Barnes and Noble, is because of their decision to be more outspoken, and to use the other side's mouthy methods to 'bright' advantage.

    It's their strategy man
  88. Gary Casey from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    'Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.'
    Thomas Jefferson

    F/A josquin, I happen to believe that REASON IS NOT THE TRUTH. That is, we need to conquor the mind, the vehicle of reason!
  89. Liam Smith from Canada writes: Gary Casey from Canada writes: To Liam Smith: If you know of a priest/minister or theologian who TRULY understands the Bible let me know...OK. On some points I agree with you on others I do not. Does it matter?

    I don't know? Does it matter to you? Nobody can TRULY understand the bible because it's been re-written so many times that it contradicts itself all over the place. Plus all the additions and omissions. It's more like a quilt then a tapestry.
  90. S Boatright from Canada writes: Lyn Alg from Canada writes: “I find it incredible by reading this mornings' 'posting' re this article that there are still so many normally intelligent Canadians who are naive, ignorant, and infantile when it comes to the subject of believing in supernatural powers like God and the Boogey-man. There really is no difference between the two. Both were created by man in his own image. Surely, there are more tangible, meaningful 'straws' that you can grasp for than a figment of your imagination. Grow up people. This is the 21st century - duh . I, for one, am a firm believer in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. What a pitiful, pitiful bunch of blind mice.” Lyn, not all things are “tangible”. If you think they are, then explain love. Explain loyalty. Explain selflessness. They are not tangible. Neither is faith. But faith has played a part in some of the most significant events in man’s history. Sometimes good – sometimes bad. But without faith perhaps man would have been stagnant, and ultimately perished. Faith exists - and it is not tangible. And if faith exists, then the logical conclusion is that there is a possibility that a higher power exists also. You ridicule that concept because you can't conceive of it - but perhaps you can't conceive of it because you can't understand the complexities. Much like man didn't realize what the universe held - and still we don't to some degree. But just because we don't understand doesn't mean it doesn't exist. R. Carrierw is right – to ridicule another opinion because you don’t agree with it is a disturbing trend. Fear breeds oppression - and that's not healthy. You say people need to “grow up”. Your outburst seems more childish to me than someone having a belief system.
  91. Ian Clark from Elliot Lake, Canada writes: In a democracy such as ours, any person can say almost anything. However, it is not honest to call oneself a 'Christian', then speak against Christianity! A Christian is a person who is Christ's one - who has given one's life to Him aout of gratitude for His marvellous grace in sacrificing Himself to save - me.
    If a person wants to fight Christianity, let him/her be honest enough to do so openly.
    Interestingly, the Living Son of God warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing!
  92. Mr. Achinghead from Canada writes: Is this about theology or philosophy? Sounds to me to be more about ethics than God, more about principles than people.

    What does one call this, Vosperanity? Vosperism? This is nothing but another brand of fundamentalism, except this time it is of the liberal variety. Attempting to find singular meanings, irreducible truths and scientific literalism. Where is the mysticism...the sense of mystery and the possibility of layers of meaning?

    Like Bono once said, 'My faith can't be fictional but it has to transcend fact.'

    When hope is only found in what we 'think' we know, then we are headed to a dangerous place. The place where the human ego is absolute. History has taught us time and again where this kind of approach will bring us.

    Certainly anyone can look around the globe and discover thousands of different Christianities. I suppose this is just but one more expression to add to the pile. That is, unless of course, Ms. Vosper is professing to offer all of us 'the one true way.' (H