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China lashes out at critics

CARA ANNA

Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 11:07 AM EDT 23/03/08

Attacks House Speaker Nancy Pelosi as 'habitually bad tempered' after Tibet criticism ...Read the full article

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  1. Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: Tibet is the source for most of China's freshwater. They'll never give it up no matter what they have to do, or who they have to kill.
  2. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: Ignore what we do and listen to what we say. Poor, beleagured, China. Victimized by the Western media. Again! Say, why were all foreign personel - including independent journalists - expelled from the area? It wouldn't be because Chinese authorities were trying to hide something? Would it? No, not Chinese authorities. Perish the thought. Unfortunately, 'Trust Us' just doesn't make the grade.
  3. Rain Couver from Canada writes: In another story, 'China fills info vacuum with media campaign,' China is trying to pull the wool over Chinese heads and try to put a spin on international perceptions. Attacking the speaker of the house seems like a very bad strategy. Maybe China hired Obama's ex-aid 'Clinton is a monster' Power.
  4. William Doyle from Prince George, Canada writes: I would now expect Ms Pelosi to go to Cuba to denounce the human rights violations her USA government is committing at Guantanamo Bay?
  5. Don Quixote from the frozen Banana Belt, Ont., Canada writes: 'You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees & the stars; you have a right to be here'

    This applies not only to us in the 'West' but also universally for Tibet and China and all......

    We are all here for a purpose, good or bad, peaceful or militaristic inclined, builders or destroyers.....

    And whatever guidelines, master plans we might hatch out of our little confined minds, we are all subject to the workings of the existing and further expanding universe.

    So for Easter: Peace to all of you, forgive them who did harm, as you want to be forgiven when you do....
  6. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: China's reactions show how guileless they are. They'll never win a 'Public Relations' war with the West.
  7. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: Tibet is the source for most of China's freshwater. They'll never give it up no matter what they have to do, or who they have to kill. Iraq is USA's oild source, they will take it no matter how many they have to kill in the name of whatever you call, freedom? democracy? Is this familiar to you?
  8. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: Nancy Pelosi , please mind your own business. CIA supported 1959's Tibet revolt and caused thousands of tibetan deathes, CIA behind this one again?
  9. H Chu from Canada writes:
    China chooses not to learn from its history, simply repeat it.
  10. Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: Chinese Canadian...yes the Chinese and Yank empires employ similar stratagies to get what they want. Both are sleazy.
  11. F H from Canada writes: 'China's official Xinhua New Agency published commentary Sunday accusing Ms. Pelosi of ignoring the violence caused by the Tibetan rioters.'

    While China handily ignores that fact that there WAS no violence until the Chinese army came in a spirited away hundreds of peacefully marching monks.
  12. Ryan Ginger from ottawa, Canada writes: Can't China kill a few dozen protesters without the international community objecting? Let them rule in peace!

    Please note, Chinese Canadian: US foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired, no doubt about that, but Americans themselves are very often the first people to protest their own government's domestic and foreign actions.
  13. Edmond Dusablon from United States writes: William Doyle from Prince George, Canada writes: I would now expect Ms Pelosi to go to Cuba to denounce the human rights violations her USA government is committing at Guantanamo Bay?

    Guantanamo Bay is the freest part of Cuba. Get over it.
  14. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Simply put,

    We may be stupid, but not that stupid! It is incredulous of them to think they could 'win' a public relations war with the west. To do that they would have to learn how to tell us what we WANT to hear.

    So far, the only message we receive (even though they have expelled journalists and control what we hear) is the message they want us to have - CHINA doesn't care what we think!

    China will continue to wage brute force on peaceful protesters that have a simple and litigitmate (in the West's view) claim to what is not very much to ask. I doubt the protests will discontinue into the summer. They will likely disturb the world during the Olympics - and China's response will likely disturb us further.

    Since I am stating the obvious, why isn't there more condemnation around the world? Is everyone so afraid of China???

    That said, I don't think I would want a war of words with the Chinese Government. They seem to have a major disconnect - one that says 'ya, whatever...' That IS scary...

    JG
  15. Michael Richardson from OakvilleMontreal, Canada writes: Chinese Canadian, infact, statistics show that Venezuela and Canada are the most prominent oil suppliers to the USA, followed closely by Saudi Arabia. If you were to say that the US invaded Iraq to stabilise the region, and eliminate a threat to Saudi Arabia, where it has significant oil interests, I would certainly agree. As for Badges comments, control of resources or not, Tibetans are not Chinese, and as such should be given some autonomy, plain and simple.
  16. Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes: Considering the West destroyed Iraq, is now torturing prisoners, has secret Gulags, has destroyed a nation and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocents, I have to agree with China here. Our press is JUST as constrained, just as complicit as the Chinese Governement news agency. The crimes commited by America and the rest of us American sattellite states VASTLY exceeds all the crimes commited by China in the last 2 decades. (including Tiananmen square) so, we are a bunch of hypocites. We should look LONG AND HARD in the mirror and perhaps we will notice our own blood soaked hands.
  17. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: Ryan Ginger from ottawa, Canada writes, 'Please note, Chinese Canadian: US foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired, no doubt about that, but Americans themselves are very often the first people to protest their own government's domestic and foreign actions.
    '

    Does this matter? Damage is damage, can damages be reverted?
    Can these dead iraqs be living with their families again? Will those who are responsible go the the trial of War Crime? George, Chenny and Rums?

    All you are telling is, under the disguise of 'Democracy', all crimes can be committed without facing justice......
  18. R. Antifimay from barrie, Canada writes: The biggest joke about the Chinese and their critics are that the PRC is a Communist Government. Hasn't anyone read Marx? (Karl not Groucho)
  19. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Michael Richardson,

    You raise a point that is the source of paranoia for some. If certain governments wouldn't stop at anything to get a source of OIL, then Canada should be worried.

    Nevermind the chances of an 'Operation Prairie Storm' where the CEO's of the top oil oligarchy are deposed. Look out for there is a war chest of capital waiting for the right opportunity to strike. It is far easier to buy all the OIL companies than cross the border!

    Oh, and by the way Dick Cheney, just remember that if you did want to send the CIA into Calgary you should know that secretly all Albertans speak French - it is how they recognize each other from other Canadians....

    JG
  20. Dr. Doolittle from Ontario from Canada writes:

    Why the silence?

    Why are so many human rights commissions silent on the current abuse occurring in Tibet?

    Why are we so chicken livered as to not demand a boycott of the Olympics?

    How can we perpetuate the myth of Canada the good, when we fail to support a truly peaceful people, the Tibetans, at a time in which they could use some leverage from world condemnation of China?

    Why do we find such solace in a constant spewing of anti-Americanism while virtually ignoring Chinese oppression, Taliban oppression, and Cuban human right's violations?
  21. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: C'mon everyone,

    Has the Chinese Government given us ONE GOOD REASON for their refusal to acknowledge TIBET???

    Just what is the problem? This is like beating a child that keeps asking for a cookie - give them the damn cookie and get over it.

    I think this is why we cannot accept their behavior - it seems overreaching. But why? The Water as suggested??? Is that all?

    Don't you think that a Bhuddist culture of monks in the mountains would be happy to return to a way of life that was non-threatening, distant, remote and of no real importance to China?

    China has this dug-in attitude about Tibet - as if they just can't admit they were wrong. I think we could forgive them easily if they did the right thing and end their occupation. We forgive everyone that capitulates, you know, we 'faggeddaboutit'

    If China wants to win the public relations war that is all they need to do. It could be a new dawn/love-fest this summer.

    CHINA, YOU HAVE THE POWER TO DO IT. JUST DO IT!
  22. Donald Jones from Canada writes: Tibet is part of China, just as Scotland and Wales have been part of Great Britain for centuries. The police and army are not used in peaceful demonstrations but they are used to quell riots. Demonstrations take place all over China for some local reason or other, noisy but peaceful. The Chinese have suffered enough in their past from local warlords, internal conflict and from outside aggression. They know what suffering means. When Japan invaded China in the 1930s and committed atrocities against the population China got no help from the west. The same Western powers that exploited China in the past, and maybe would like to destabilize it to do the same again, are now telling China how to behave. The Chinese people know that they have never had it so good and will not stand for interference from countries that have more blood on their hands than China.
  23. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: Dr. Doolittle from Ontario from Canada writes:

    'support a truly peaceful people, the Tibetans ', so you determined to turn your blind eyes on the violence commited by these rioters no matter the facts were?

    Great, go ahead,
  24. Chris * from Waterloo, Canada writes: 'Does this matter? Damage is damage, can damages be reverted?
    Can these dead iraqs be living with their families again? Will those who are responsible go the the trial of War Crime? George, Chenny and Rums?

    All you are telling is, under the disguise of 'Democracy', all crimes can be committed without facing justice......'

    No Chinese Canadian, what he is trying to tell you is that under such a democracy some crimes can* be addressed. US soldiers in Iraq have stood trial for murder and have been convicted. Four thousand US soldiers have been killed in combat. Elections of new leaders are being fuelled by the fact that American citizens *want the country to lead a new path even if they can't erase the past.

    In other words, if the people want change they can enact it, even though it is useful to point out that such opportunities should not be squandered.

    Now you tell me -- how many Chinese soldiers are going to stand trial for shooting into crowds of protesters, violent or not (it doesn't matter, it's a reprehensible act either way)? When are the farmers whose lands have been taken over by government going to get to elect a new leader who is more sympathetic? Let me know.
  25. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    I am with Dr. Doolittle. Boycott the Olympics. It is the RIGHT thing to do TODAY.

    Nevermind the past, nevermind Berlin, it is a different world today.

    I predict we will see many atheletes declining attendance despite the personal disappointment. The global disappointment is far greater.

    JG
  26. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'The Chinese people know that they have never had it so good and will not stand for interference from countries that have more blood on their hands than China.'

    Did you speak to all 1.2 billion citizens of China? Or is this opinion based solely on the government of China's propaganda?
  27. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Chris * from Waterloo, Canada ...as many National Grard members who were tried over events in Ohio...
  28. Linda Dial from Calgary, Canada writes: Dear Chinese Canadian, Nancy Pelosi doesn't read the Globe and Mail flameboards. However, if you had the guts, you could write her a letter. In the meantime, suck it up princess.
  29. H Chauhan from Toronto, Canada writes: Typical male response to a woman's comments.

    Tibetans, please continue your peaceful protests until Olympics and even after.

    Just wear the Chinese government down and show them up as the
    false Republicans that they are.

    Most of the world sympathises with you.
  30. K Z from Canada writes: John Galt, Chinese government has won the propaganda war with help of western 'free press'. What they really care is responses of Chinese people, not western governments and media. If you can read Chinese, you will know what I mean when you go to some Chinese discussion forums.
  31. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: Linda Dial from Calgary, Canada writes: Dear Chinese Canadian, Nancy Pelosi doesn't read the Globe and Mail flameboards. However, if you had the guts, you could write her a letter. In the meantime, suck it up princess.

    Another case of 'Freedom of your speech'.
  32. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: JC Davies,

    I think that China has demonstrated they won't tolerate other government's interference or opinions. That is pretty loud and clear.

    They might use righteous indignation to support this, but two wrongs don't make a right do they?

    Do they have to learn the hard way? China's actions couldn't be farther from the 'middle way'. This might explain the condition, and why we just don't get it, but it does not excuse such behavior.

    BTW, you cannot compare protests (even violent ones) with actions and behaviors in combat conditions. Though it is true, there is some accountability for the sake of Public Relations (e.g. Iraq).

    It is one thing to denounce the foreign policy of a government and its acts of aggression waged on others, but we are talking about how CHINA treats its own people (per se).

    The US government might be your cup of tea but it gives its people some basic human rights, as does Canada and the G7.

    This alone give us the right to criticize China - on this subject. They want to have a place at the table so they need to learn some manners. Otherwise, bugger off.
  33. Joe Calgarian from Canada writes: I think what Tibet is doing is horrible, boycott Tibetan products!
  34. Linda Dial from Calgary, Canada writes: Yes, Chinese Canadian, you are quite free to write a letter to Nancy Pelosi.
  35. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: K Z from Canada writes: John Galt, Chinese government has won the propaganda war with help of western 'free press'. What they really care is responses of Chinese people, not western governments and media. If you can read Chinese, you will know what I mean when you go to some Chinese discussion forums.

    Western medias helped Chinese government won the propoganda war by their biased, fabricated false reports on the tibet riots. We never saw how chinese are united since 1989.
  36. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Hey KZ,

    Thank you, but I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that things won't get better in China until the Chinese people demand it?

    I might agree with this; however, wouldn't it help to have the empathy of the world on your side? I don't think I am in isolation when I say the world would be a better place if the Chinese were given greater human rights - not to mention Tibetans.

    I don't read Chinese, but it is good to hear there is a groundswell of awareness among Chinese, regardless of media complicity or not.
  37. W L from Canada writes: Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: China's reactions show how guileless they are. They'll never win a 'Public Relations' war with the West.

    =================================================

    Fact is, they are. China has a billion citizens happy about what their government has done for them. The Chinese government is responsible to its own citizens. Not Canadians. Just like the Canadian government is responsible to keep its citizens happy, not Chinese nationals.
  38. Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: Chinese Canadian or M F from Toronto.....you cannot 'colour a lie', apologise for, or rationalize China's reaction to Tibetan unrest.
  39. doug rogers from London, Canada writes: China shows itself still and again to be a paranoid, self-interested ego-maniacial state, shall I say modern corporation? Anything that that goes 'wrong' must have been manifested by enemies of it's self-involved paranoid ego. Practically the opposite of the Dalai Lama it vilifies. No wonder there's is no understanding or even a chance for compromise. China, like so many today, believes it and only it have the truth.
  40. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Chinese Canadian,

    Please enlighten me. I don't understand what you are saying. How has China won the propaganda war?

    Have they won western sympathy for their course of action? (I doubt that)

    Have they pulled the wool over our eyes and gotten away with more human rights violations with the help of western media? Is there more to that story we should be hearing?

    What is falsely reported about the Tibet riots? I just don't see how the news we ARE getting makes me sympathize with China. It doesn't. Are you saying China wants me to feel this way, and the western media helped them with a pro-Tibetan bias?

    What do you mean '...Chinese were united since 1989?' How does this factor in the way the protesters are behaving or the government responding???

    Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be more informed. Anyone please jump in here and add to this string.....

    Thanks,
  41. Meng W. from Canada writes: If Dali Lama didn't think he had anything to be guilty of, why did he talk about resigning?

    People in the west are foolish enough to believe anything: Free Tibet, WMDs exist, its all the same, brainwashing them into thinking they are heros of freedom so they tend to be less likely to question your information.

    As a previous poster have pointed out, China is not responsible for un-brainwashing Canadians, you can go on protesting about Sadam's WMDs all you want and at the end of the day, Canada will always be Canada, self-righteousness is all you have going for you.

    Besides, when did the US government get any credibility on human rights? Thousands of people protest against the US on a monthly basis, nobody raises an eyebrow.
  42. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: John Galt from Vancouver, Canada,

    How can you see when you choose to turn blind eyes on?
  43. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: WL,

    I don't get it. You say that China has won the public relations war with the west because Chinese people are happy with their government?

    If this is true, I am happy for their happiness. Is it false? Are we led to believe this by the government controlled media, the western media?

    I don't think China won any PR war with the West if you consider the reaction of disbelief and disgust with Chinas response to the riots/protests - whatever they are.

    If they have won any war it is with their own people; and, it seems, with their environment.
  44. H Chauhan from Toronto, Canada writes: Meng W; Your argument re, Dalai Lama's threat of resignation does not have legs.

    Mahatma Gandhi used to threaten resignation and go on hunger strike every time his followers and countrymen engaged in violence.

    Dalai Lama is a Buddhist and also a follower of MK Gandhi.
  45. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Meng,

    Yes, protests every day, but nobody gets shot!

    Isn't this the point? Civil liberties, as opaque as they are, provide a basic human condition. Would you deny this of anyone?

    JG
  46. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Chinese Canadian,

    Easy there. I am trying to follow your objection, but you do not give me anything to work with.

    I am open to any arguement with warrant. I am just questioning a lot of comments that seem [to me] to be contradictory or conflicting. I want to make sense of them, but it is difficult with my lack of first-hand knowledge.

    Enlighten me.
  47. Jesse Winger from Calgary Southwest, Canada writes: China should pull their occupying forces out of Tibet now.

    Let the Tibetans go, China! You've no right holding them hostage in their own country.

    Perhaps an Olympic boycott is the only peaceful form of reasoning the Chinese will understand.
  48. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Meng, Yes, protests every day, but nobody gets shot!

    Mobs got shoot every day. Police shot innocent with knives on toronto streets often, and 99% cases were cleared by SIU of any wrongdiings.
  49. Meng W. from Canada writes: Does anyone honestly believe China could ever win a 'PR' war in the west? The guys holding the gun, in this case, are the journalists who are not even ashamed of using Nepal police footage to brainwash its own people, when you are counting on your enemy to shoot themselves for you, what's the likelihood of that working?

    The PR war China cares about are every single Chinese citizen around the world who isn't so easily brainwashed by western media, what you see are those who went on protest in 1989 come back and defend China, those who were critical of Chinese government come back and defend China, that's what China have influence on and that's what China need to care about.

    As for Canadians, next time you go out and buy a computer, a TV, or anything else for that matter, do remember, China is the only reason you are not spending 50% of your monthly income on just getting by. Your entire way of life, which allowed you the time to even bother with yoru self-righteousness is based on China keeping your currency artifically high.
  50. K Z from Canada writes: John Galt, I am not sure that we are on same boat here. Appears to me you are promoting human rights, universal values to Chinese people, I appreciate your concern and efforts, Chinese people including Tibetans do need more human rights and freedom. But in a realistic world, the progress will a long, painful process. China is country with 5000 year civilization and 56 various ethnicities, as far as I know, Chinese is working hard on improving their standard of life and they have achieved a lot until now. They don't want foreign countries to rock the boat during the process.

    If I were you, I'd have gone to take a look by myself.
  51. richard steven from Canada writes:
    This recent series of events have let me to completely lose faith in western media. Please do your own research as to understand the hypocrisy of these biased attacks. Media will undo years of education which came in form of things which used to exist called 'books'. Learn your history and research what is truly happening.
    Finding out the truth is too much for you. Buying what the media say is just easy and convenient, despite it's true or not. ' It's true because when I wrote the comment, I didn't add lol'.
  52. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Chinese Canadian,

    You just lost me there.

    How many Canadian hockey hooligans were shot and killed on Robson Street in Vancouver during that all-time riot? ZERO

    Don't compare the tensions and fears between the Toronto Metro Police (or OPP) and their perpatrators. I have first-hand knowledge there, and can tell you that there are a lot of people living in fear in TO. Cops included. I agree, it isn't a pleasant situation, but there is a lot of crime there, and a lot of public interest in changing the situation. NOT unlike Vancouver.

    But, it is beside the point because we have laws that make it illegal to act against our human rights. It is a starting point that China might consider.
  53. Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
    Chinese propaganda machine doesn't care much about western influence, their main target is Chinese population around the world, for those the major news source is still Chinese.

    Chinese population around the world is bigger than US Canada Russia Europe, so if these people support that would be big success already. Plus Arab bloc, Africa block and Russia all expressed their support to China, only around 20 western countries showing hostile to them.

    For them that's good enough.
  54. Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
    If you travel out of western world, you will immediately find Chinese view is far more appealing to them than western ones.

    Especially in Arab or Africa world, a Chinese passport or flag guarantee you're welcomed every where.
  55. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: MENG and KZ,

    Good points. So, the Chinese PR war is concerned about making sure that Chinese around the world know what their home Government is doing to improve Chinese life. It is not concerned with what I think - reinforcing what I have concluded.

    And KZ, regarding the progession toward a better future, point well taken. We need to consider things in their context. I hope the media is listening to this.

    BUT, all is well and good with Chinese in China and abroad, so what about the welfare of the TIBETANS???

    Don't TIBETANS have some rights that need defending? Haven't they gotten a raw deal?

    How do you feel about their claim???
  56. Linda Dial from Calgary, Canada writes: I certainly do enjoy the freedom of my speech. Here in Calgary I can write comments without my computer being hacked on and spied on by the Chinese government. After 18 years living in China, I am very familiar with the dictatorship of the alcholics in Beijing. And by the way, CPC members are not permitted to discuss anything of consequence with non-members. Unless they are drunk, of course, So is there some big change going on here, begging the foreigners for understanding?
  57. Liam Smith from Canada writes: This is such a stupid conversation. And it's seemingly impossible to get accurate media on it because of western biases and China's systemic suppression of their own media. One thing I find that is funny however is when I hear quotes coming from Chinese officials that I could swear came right from Orwell's 'Animal Farm'. And for the record there are a lot of people on both sides that need to take the blinders off.

    Nationalism Sucks!!
  58. Meng W. from Canada writes: 'How many Canadian hockey hooligans were shot and killed on Robson Street in Vancouver during that all-time riot? ZERO'

    I don't recall them go on a murdering rampage and burn down Toronto downtown either? Thousands of protests happen in China even year thanks to the 1.3 billion population, do you think police have any need to shoot them anymore now that they imported the great invention of the west: crowd control.

    Before you go on condeming Chinese police, why don't you go on the street, kill a few Chinese looking pedestrians, burn down every store in China town, then set fire to every passing car. See how the RCMP 'treat' you.

    oh right, they would probably just Tazer you, to death if necesssary. Now that's another great western invention China should spend more money on importing.
  59. bob saunders from Belleville Ontario, Canada writes: Meng W. from Canada I carefully shop to ensure I get as little Chinese content as possible, and no, I don't consider Taiwan as part of China. Canada owes nothing to China and could get on very well without it. Plenty of cheap items to be brought from numerous other countries. My brother is a buyer for a large company- he used to get everything from China because it was cheaper but the quality control was awful. He now buys from the states-made in USA -its more expensive in the initial costs but cheaper in the long run-and customer service is much better. China has come a long way in the treatment of its own people, but Tibetans are not Chinese. My son who is fluent in Mandarin says that Chinese are very racially prejudice and constantly say nasty things about others in their own language, thinking nobody will understand them. Meng, admit that the PRC government does nasty things.
  60. Republic of Saturn from Canada writes: John Galt

    Chinese care 'welfare of the TIBETANS' as pretty much as we care about that of natives. The government knows it.

    So the propaganda of that has no appeal to regular Chinese, many of them already complain that Tibetans are given too much, exactly as we complained of native.
  61. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: LIAM,

    Yes it does. We are talking so much about China and have a lot of response from a Chinese perspective, but sadly no Tibetan viewpoints.

    How do CHINESE (in China or abroad) feel about the TIBETAN Claims? Isn't that more relevant?

    There is an awkward silence on this subject...everywhere.
  62. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes:

    You just chosed to ignore the fact, deliverately or not, that what happened in Lhasa was riot, killing innocent people, robberies...
  63. Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
    As far as I know, no oversea Chinese even bother reading Tibetan claims.

    They just simply quote treaties singed by Chinese Emperor and Tibetan rulers in the past.
  64. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes:
    'Chinese Canadian or M F from Toronto.....you cannot 'colour a lie', apologise for, or rationalize China's reaction to Tibetan unrest. '

    Gee, I thought that I was going to remain quiet, but since you asked for it....

    True. I can't colour a lie. I have no intention to, either.

    I am glad that you can, as demonstated by the numerous headlines.
  65. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Saturn,

    Is that true? Wow. How long will it take for China to negotiate a treaty or some such?

    Will they use false justification to avoid taking this responsibility? i.e. '...it took the Canadian govt. more than 100 years to negotiate the last treaty [Maa--Nulth, 2007), so you can't expect us to just hand it back to them [Tibetans].'

    Or, is there an alternative?

    MENG: I am not condemning Chinese police - it is the LAW that governs them that is in question.
  66. PT Z from Vancouver, Canada writes: I think 'outsiders' should show some respect and make some responsible comments. If you do, please make sure you have enough knowledge to do so. You will never make it 'right' just because you 'hate' and condemn (Sabtage) China. 1989 protest was only the chineses' wish to make China better but you guys just want to make China like another Iraq. the Majority of chinese are very happy with their goverment now, so what's your problem, 'outsiders'? How do you feel when somebody interfere with your own business? Annoyed, right? Tiebet BECAME PART OF CHINA long time ago, way before Canada or U.S. exist. It was not a peaceful protest anyways. USA/western countries founded Dalai lama the same way they found the Bin Laden, did you know that? So who is making troubles behind all these? Think about it... I don't know if the medias here are smart or the people are just fool and follow the 'crowd'...
  67. Chinese Canadian from Canada writes: Non Brainers, I can gurantee you that the Western allies will hunt these monks 20, 30 yeares latter as what they are doing right now hunting Taliban/Al Q...
  68. Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
    It took about a few month for Chinese to settle the Tibet 300 years ago, around 1720.

    They need to blame their ancestors.
  69. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: PTZ,

    Whoa on the rhetoric.

    Who wants China to become the next Iraq? Are you serious?
  70. K Z from Canada writes: John Galt, OK, now let's focus on Tibetans.
    Tibet issues are very complex ones, which should be approached from historical, cultural, social, religious perspectives, not just from political one. Of course, the issues are beyond my capacity to explain to you. If you are really interested, I may recommend some books to you. Anyway, the riot did
    reflect some in-depth frustration toward Han and Chinese government. But IMHO, there is a major factor that most media neglect or ignore on purpose, that is the Tibetans felt they are marginalized economically although Chinese government did made big effort to advance Tibetan economy, but the benefit of development doesn't dribble down to regular
    Tibetan sufficiently.
  71. Liam Smith from Canada writes: PT Z . . . It is stupid to talk about 'outsiders' the way you do. It is incendiary and liable to end up with people referring to you in the same way.

    The difference between Bin Laden and the Dalai Lama is that the first one is a billionaire's son who incites hatred while the second is a monk who promotes compassion through dialogue.

    I don't give a crap about nationalism. It is just tribalism on an industrial scale but it doesn't appear as if any of the Chinese who are posting here have any sense of the Tibetan side of the story. Media repression. What are you gonna do about it. I can't say that I have a real sense of the Tibetan side either. I don't know any ethnic Tibetans. Do any of the you?
  72. Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
    My saying is that don't rush signing anything too fast, otherwise your offspring will riot and Tibetan really should blame their ancestor for signing that.
  73. Liam Smith from Canada writes: Chinese Canadian: I've been trying to be very even handed in anything that I say but you sound like a dolt, man. Seriously, it's a little sad. Non-brainers? I did get a little chuckle out of that.
  74. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Thanks KZ,

    From what I have read in books about Tibet, I have a sense they have been oppressed by China for all those reasons. But, most importantly they have been routed from their homeland.

    These are people without guns. Who speaks for them? The Dali, and some bad actors. They are not alone on this planet, there are others in similar plight.

    Why is it so wrong to aid them in their claim to a homeland?

    Am I just being altruistic?
  75. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes:

    Chinese Canadians on this thread:

    Please do not take the objective criticism of the Chinese government so personal. The issue isn't really about Chinese people, unless you could convince me otherwise, it is about recognition of the Tibetan people.

    How do you acknowledge them in China, or from abroad?
  76. K Z from Canada writes: John Galt, the reasons for the marginalization are multiple, religiously, Tibetans care about their after lives more than current lives, the motivation for better physical life is not as strong as Han people. Other factor are education, language and so on, you may see some similarities on the aboriginals here.
  77. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: LIAM, 'Yes it does. We are talking so much about China and have a lot of response from a Chinese perspective, but sadly no Tibetan viewpoints. How do CHINESE (in China or abroad) feel about the TIBETAN Claims? Isn't that more relevant? There is an awkward silence on this subject...everywhere. ' John, I will try to add a few cents to your questions. Before I start, let me explain myself a bit. I am a Han Chinese, grow up in China, went to West for education since my twenties. I have lived in West for over 20 years now. My own point of view on Tibetan feelings: The picture painted by those Tibetans with Dalai Lama are very different from those living in China. I went to a Tibetan area from Sichuan last year. I can see the following (as told by several Tibetans themselves): -- Billions of dollars are spent by Chinese government in Tibet; -- Primary, secondary schools are built. The conditions are much better compared lots of poor areas in Han Chinese area; -- Medicare system is built from scratch; -- Tibetans are allowed to have more than 2 children whereas Han Chinese are allowed on one kid; -- Tibetan high school kids are given priority admission to Universities; -- Tibetans are given priority for jobs from government -- Millions are spent on renovating and rebuild monasteries. Actually, the Tibetan family we lived with, having a couple of Audi (Tibetans tend to have a big family). That is right, I can't afford a Audi here in Canada. This is good side. Given the limit on length of comment, I will post another comment on bad side.
  78. True North from Canada writes: 'habitually bad tempered' lol - do the Chinese government use the web to translate their attacks into english for them?
  79. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Thank you MF,

    That is very useful insight. I didn't know these facts.

    So why all the continued exile?

    Where does the religious context fit into Tibetan life now?

    JG
  80. doug rogers from London, Canada writes: KZ: 'that is the Tibetans felt they are marginalized economically although Chinese government did made big effort to advance Tibetan economy, but the benefit of development doesn't dribble down to regular Tibetan sufficiently.'

    I would rather say:

    'Tibetans are marginalized economically' and 'benefit doesn't dribble down to regular Tibetan.' Period. End stop.

    The other conditions are important, not less than this economic argument.

    By saying 'sufficiently' and 'felt' infers, to my ears, some kind of resentment on the part of Tibetans, that they should be grateful and are not.

    Your argument here also implies that economic development in and of itself is a good thing. This is pretty much the reason China gives for it's 'Liberation.'

    Much of the opposition to China is that we feel Tibet - and all people - have the right to make these decisions by themselves, for themselves. We aren't opposed to economic development. We are opposed to enforced ideologies, no matter what the colour the stripe.

    And John Galt, I am not a Libertarian or Objectivist, but that 'Am I just being altruistic?' is pretty funny coming from that name :-)
  81. H Chauhan from Toronto, Canada writes: Republic Of Saturn:
    And all those who prefer China, are they emigrating to China? Pray tell!

    They may give lip service to China, Russia and even Pakistan and Iran but they would rather all live here in the Western world, including you!!

    Things may not be perfect here but they are still a lot better than the above-mentioned countries.
  82. David any from Canada writes: The Chinese leadership...both of them... are like children who want to pick up the ball and take it home. I agree...GROW-UP. If you want to lead the world ...fine....act like it....If you want to be spoiled brats...fine.....put up with the criticism. Gawd! Dictators!
  83. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: You (M F, from Toronto, Canada) wrote: John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'How do CHINESE (in China or abroad) feel about the TIBETAN Claims? Isn't that more relevant? There is an awkward silence on this subject...everywhere. ' Here is the bad side (from my own view point): I don't think most Tibetans living in Tibet gives a dam about independance. However, due to the rapid comercialization or globalisation, a lot of social tension is generated. -- They criticize corrupt government officials (which their Han and Muslim brothers do the same) -- they complain that they have not been given enough attention (which their Han and Muslim brothers also do) -- they complain that their jobs are low-paid (which their Han and Muslim brothers also do). -- They complain that their environment is damaged (which their Han and Muslim brothers also do); -- They complain that their tradition is damaged (again the same for their Han and Muslim brothers). Some guy suggested that Tibet should be left alone as a Shang-ri-la. This is just plain silly. The Tibetan kids, just like our kids, like computers, video games, etc. I think that they have every right to go to 21st century, just like rest of us. However, I have to say, I am not sure what is the best way for them to go to 21st Century.
  84. job canada from Canada writes: F H from Canada writes: 'China's official Xinhua New Agency published commentary Sunday accusing Ms. Pelosi of ignoring the violence caused by the Tibetan rioters.'

    While China handily ignores that fact that there WAS no violence until the Chinese army came in a spirited away hundreds of peacefully marching monks.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    REALLY?

    to know how Tibet looked like under Dalai Lama's ruling before 1959, please visit website:
    http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/10/dalai-lama-hero-in-western-world.html

    to argue Tibet not part of China, please visit website:
    http://newschecker.blogspot.com/
  85. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    doug rogers, thanks for noticin'.

    I think a lot of people that have posted here lean on the side of altruism, fortunately or unfortunately. Depending on how you look at it, this could be good or bad...

    Good point on the right to decide for themselves. First Nations in Canada have had a similar experience. Knowing some involved in the recent Maa-Nulth treaty, I can say they are very happy to have finally cut the strings. It is a starting point.

    Telling First Nations how, what and wherefore etc, hasn't worked either. Engagement in self directed actions seems to be more fulfilling.

    Perhaps this might be something that China could reflect on.

  86. K Z from Canada writes: John Galt, I didn't said you can't speak or even act for Tibetans, what I said is the world is not just black and white, Indians and cops, 'either you with me or against me'. I do have deep sympathy for these law-abiding poor Tibetans left by economic train, but I sympathize those Han people too who were beaten, killed and rooted in the riot too!

    John, if you are a real promoterof human rights, please confirm that you are concerned with these victims as same human beings. Thank you!
  87. Wai Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Now that a couple of weeks have passed, here’s my analysis of what happened. With the Olympics approaching, the Dalai Lama ordered some of his monks to hold peaceful protests anticipating the Chinese government would arrest them which would lead to coverage by Western media of a crackdown. The Chinese authorities anticipating this give orders to the police to use as much restraint as possible and not to arrest anybody. After a couple of days the Tibetans realizing this go on a rampage against Han and Hui Chinese. Dozens are killed and wounded with many stores destroyed. The Chinese authorities did not anticipate this and do not react swiftly. The Western media who are waiting for a Chinese crackdown are taken aback at the violence and try to downplay it. I watched Newsworld on the CBC and didn’t see any rampaging Tibetans. The Chinese authorities finally order the army into Tibet and the protests are now mostly contained. With a sense of relief, the Western media are free to condemn the Chinese government for a “violent crackdown” against peaceful protesters. What people don’t realize there are different factions within the Tibetan exile groups. The Dalai Lama (who I like) represents the peaceful Tibetan resistance movement. The younger, more aggressive members want to start a violent guerilla war similar to the Palestinians. In some ways, the Dalai Lama is being marginalized within his movement. Some anticipate with his death, the Tibetans would start serious fighting against the Chinese.
  88. Wai Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: The Western governments and commentators are trying to prop up the Dalai Lama and to get the Chinese authorities to make a deal with him. What they don’t want is the Tibetan resistance movement to splinter into smaller violent groups. See how the Palestinian Liberation Organization has splintered into Fatah and Hamas groups. Now we have to prop up Fatah while isolate the Hamas group. That’s why I think Gordon Brown and Condoleezza Rice has called on the Chinese government to meet with him. It’s a not too subtle hint for the Chinese government to take the easiest solution to the Tibet problem.

    I think after the Olympics the Chinese government will meet with the Dalai Lama and cut a deal. Tibet is becoming too much of a headache. Whether the Tibetans would favor the rule of a bunch of humorless monks is another issue.
  89. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    MF, Thank you,

    You raise a good point regarding the affects of time on a population. Chinese intervention in Tibet has had an impact of moving Tibetans toward a Chinese model.

    True, you cannot turn back the clock - it is what it is now. So, it may in fact be too altruistic to think Tibet could be handed over to its past.

    What now?
  90. M F from Toronto, Canada writes: John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes: Thank you MF,

    'So why all the continued exile?

    I pretty much sure that this is another Western media myth. Having said that, a lot of Chinese want to go to West, simply because they are told that life under West is much better....Tibetans are included.

    If you read the Chinse newspapers, you will find a story that, ironically, quite a few oversea Chinese are going back China...

    'Where does the religious context fit into Tibetan life now?'

    I am not very good at religion, I have to say. Tibetans are very religious, they think Dalai Lama is a living god. That is why Dalai Lama is still commanding a huge role.

    What I do know that, in the old times, male kids are preferred being sent to monasteries to become a monk. The problem is that, in a modern society, this is just not going to be economically viable... You can imagine, if a large portion of youngs just reading bibles, who is going to do the real work? Also, the current Chinese constition says that you must send kids to school... just like it here. However, I don't know whether this policy has been classified by some here as culture genocide...I certainly think this is a correct policy.
  91. John Galt from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    KZ, I didn't know. Of course, all those oppressed are equals.

    Wai Lee, thank you for sharing your thoughts they shed tremendous light on the situation from the political viewpoint. It does cause more concern to view the situation in that comparison.

    I want to believe you when you say Tibet is becoming too much of a headache; and, I agree that Buddhist leadership would likely be tenuous.

    Maybe it is too late.
  92. March Keel from Ten feet of snow under, Canada writes: Media-bias is definitly there. And it is on both sides! Activists here need to be smart and pragmatic, just see Tiananmen movement 20 years ago. Did it really changed China democracy afterwards? If your answer is not a 100% YES, then now China is about 5 times stronger GDP-wise and calling shots on everthing with a price tag, Chinese leaders are about 10 times more stuborn than Mr. Bush who by chance also ignores