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Oldest known European human ancestor reported

DANIEL WOOLLS

The Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 12:15 AM EDT 27/03/08

Discovery in northern Spain suggests people lived on continent much earlier than thought, scientist says ...Read the full article

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  1. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...we've come a long way baby....of have we?....
  2. J F from Canada writes: Bet this 1.3 million year old guy had more brains than the people walking on the planet today
  3. Rocket Doctor from Vanc, Canada writes: What i wonder is if the clerks in the local grocery store glared askance at him when he asked for a bag to carry home his purchases, and whether he felt guilty for forgetting to bring his woven reed basket!
  4. Rusty Waters from Canada writes: But Christians believe the earth was created 5000 years ago. So this story about a 1.3 million guy can't be true.
  5. Toronto G from York, Canada writes: Oh the church will just love this news.
  6. martha stewart from Canada writes: Fascinating field of study. Just keep learning more.

    Our whole view of human migration to North America has been revolutionized in the past two decades too. Even though for decades before that the entrenched consensus insisted that the debate was over...
  7. emilio D from Vancouver, Canada writes: The teeth does not look human to me. What animal has a set of teeth made up only of pre-molars and molars? Maybe the ancestor of modern day hippos?
  8. J F from Canada writes: Emilio
    Dick Cheney has the same teeth
  9. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: Its all a big lie. The devil has burried dragon bones to confuse us all.

    Oh wait a minute. I'm not Christian. Oh wait a minute. I'm not a Jew. Oh wait a minute. I'm not a Muslim, Mormon, or any other denomination sprung from the old testament. Oh wait a minute. 3.8 Billion of the 6.6 Billion people on this planet don't come from cultures in anyway shape of form affected or shaped by the old testament and for whom this debate means nothing.

    Oh wait a minute, of the remaining 3 Billion or so other people on this planet who do come from societies influenced by the old testament more than half are atheist, non-practising, or non-religious. Oh wait a minute...did this debate just lose all of its importance?

    Oh wait a minute....I hope some of you now realize that this 'debate' should be seen in its proper context. An analogy you ask?How about this: While to Canadians the debate over who was the greatest Canadian (I vote Tommy Douglas) seems like an important and burning issue.....most of us realize that to the rest of the world its pointless or at best a 'quaint human interest story'.

    So it goes for the rest of the world and the old testament vs. science debate.
  10. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: The analogy being the rest of the world doesn't care whom Canadians think is the greatest Canadian...hence it is only a 'debate' or 'issue' within a small circle of people (Canadians).....of little interest or import to the larger social grouping known as 'humanity.'

    The same applies to the jesus vs. science 'debate.'
  11. Biggest Redneck from Somewhere, United States writes: Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    So it goes for the rest of the world and the old testament vs. science debate.

    I didn't see anything about science and religion in this article.
    Perhaps you should quit trying to pick fights with people who don't agree with you. I'm not religous in anyway ( more a hopefull agnostic ) but I believe in tolerance wether it be from the religous right or those who see the world as a bit more fact based. Let them them have their beliefs as long as they are not hurting you. Tolerance is a 2 way street.

    I'm with Martha this is a very interesting find and it opens new avenues of thought and new theories as to when we evolved and moved out of the African continent. Very interesting stuff.
  12. s like from Canada writes: Rusty Waters

    I know it's personally useful for many to believe that Christians are all closed-minded, finger-wagging Republicans out to ruin everyone's good time but you should know that not all Christians believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. Perhaps the majority don't, at least in Canada.

    I believe that God created the system of evolution.
  13. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    Must have been found in England------looks like a set of British 'biters' extraordinaire.
  14. J F from Canada writes: Biggest Redneck
    Just ignore Sam Patel. He just has a bee in his bonnet and loves to play the victum
  15. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: I agree that the science underlying this discovery is fascinating.

    I am not trying to pick a fight that isn't there. I am trying to place whatever debate inevitably pops up here in its proper and narrow context.
  16. Globe Insider subscriber content
    Mei-Xing Xu from Canada writes: what would stockwell day say
  17. philip j. fry from Hamilton, Canada writes: Is it Joan Collins?
  18. Synchronicity Tour from Canada writes: Sam Patel: Its funny you believe Tommy Douglas is the greatest Cdn of all time. He would have no use for you except maybe to clean his house.
  19. Michael Soft from Windows, Canada writes: Oh...They've found Adam and Eve's ancestor?
  20. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    PHILIP I choked on my sandwich as I scrolled down :-)) There are little bits of cheese and hardtack on my screen now.

    philip j. fry from Hamilton, Canada writes: Is it Joan Collins?
  21. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: Synchronicity Tour from Canada writes

    Are you implying that Tommy Douglas was some sort of bigot who only interacted with people of colour in a domestic master-servant relationship?

    If not...perhaps you have some sort of cognitive diffiuclty re: expressing your ideas. If you merely meant to say that he would view me as an m-o-r-o-n then the words you chose were chosen very poorly.
  22. Juan Valasquez from Scarborough, Canada writes: I find this article excludes non-european citizens of Canada. I find it very Euro-centric and quite frankly disgusting that I have to read this kind of trash.
    If Sam Patel were alive today he would be outraged.
  23. Synchronicity Tour from Canada writes: Some Christians believe the world is only 6000 years old. That would be an incredibly small percentage. Shall we go over what the religions of Islam, Jewis, Hindu, buddist believe in? It would be rather funny.

    Of course its easier to pick on Christians because being the universal faith no ONE culture, race or class/caste would define us. Therefore you cant be called a racist or a bigot if you insult a Christian. Insult the others religions – look out!
  24. Brent Wilkins from Canada writes: ' Rusty Waters from Canada writes: But Christians believe the earth was created 5000 years ago. So this story about a 1.3 million guy can't be true.'

    Instead of questioning whether this man is true, Maybe you should be questioning your salvation.
  25. Globe Insider subscriber content
    Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Musty Waters from Canada writes: But Christians believe the earth was created 5000 years ago. So this story about a 1.3 million guy can't be true.
    Toronto G from York, Canada writes: Oh the church will just love this news.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You are both out to lunch. Waters: Only a few benighted unsophisticated uneducated fanatics believe that rubbish and Toronto G from York' The church? Which one ? THere's quite a wide choice. You guys probably believe that all Moslems are fanatics and are out for your blood. This evidence of the early man in Europe is minimal and I doubt we should jump to any firm conclusions. I feel that anthropologists like to erect unbelievable theories on one small piece of evidence.
    CYMRO
  26. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: Synchronicity Tour from Canada

    Muslims and Jews believe the same thing as Christians re: creation of the earth. All 3 incorporate the old testament (albeit with some small differences). All three share in common the presence of nutter hardcore types who actually thnk the world is really 6,000 years old.

    Hinduism and Budhism are universal faiths applying to all cultures as well unless you think 'Asian' culture is one single culture, and that Japanese people and Tibetans are one and the same. All sorts of cultures have adopted hinduism in the past an present. Bali in indonesia is a Hindu society which is non-Indian. Cambodia's Angkor Wat complex was built by a Cambodian hindu empire which rose and fell 1,000 years ago. Various forms of budhism are pracitsed throughout the world by all sorts of different cultures.

    Yes, all of these people have their own funny beliefs....but there is no deabte in Tibet or Japan or Uttar Pradesh re: the earth being 6,000 years old.
  27. emilio D from Vancouver, Canada writes: Jf from Canada, Very interesting observation. I am thinking more of Donald Rumsfeld- his teeth of mass destruction.
  28. Maximilian Widmaier from Vancouver, Canada writes: More importantly Brent, perhaps we should all spend our time questioning the salvation of others, eh?
  29. brokeback mountain from toronto, Canada writes: those bones belong to dalai lama in his previous life..
  30. Synchronicity Tour from Canada writes: Sam: Thanks for the lesson on the worlds various cultures. Well you have dispelled my theory about why people usually criticize Christians and not the other fairy tale religions. I now wonder why that is the case. Is it because we dont go crying to a human rights board or that we are not likely to suicide bomb a school bus or cafe?
  31. Maximilian Widmaier from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mr. Patel, the number of people who participate in a debate has no bearing whatsoever on its verrisimilitude nor on the value of the discussion it generates.

    With that in mind, I'll add this to the debate: only loonies abandon scientific epistomology and claim the earth is 5000 years old because it says so in some book written 2000 years ago. Strangely, there are millions of such loonies.
  32. Maximilian Widmaier from Vancouver, Canada writes: s like from Canada writes: '...I believe that God created the system of evolution. '

    Why? What role does God play in evolution? Why introduce a theoretical entity that contributes nothing of explanatory value to the theory?
  33. Sha Na Na from Canada writes: Rusty Waters from Canada writes: But Christians believe the earth was created 5000 years ago. So this story about a 1.3 million guy can't be true.

    No they don't, but you obviously like to think that they do so you can make fun.
  34. Globe Insider subscriber content
    Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Maximilian Widmaier from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    I'll add this to the debate: only loonies abandon scientific epistomology and claim the earth is 5000 years old because it says so in some book written 2000 years ago. Strangely, there are millions of such loonies.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------What book was that? As a matter of fact it was Bishop Usher
    of the Anglican Communion who in the 19th century calculated the age of the earth. He added up all the 'begats' to arrive at his conclusion. Those dummies who believe him should take a look at
    the configuration of the continents and the walls of the Grand Canyon and all kinds of other evidence staring them in the face.
    On the other hand those little kids in Sunday school usually figure out they've been lied to by the time they get to the age of 15. Not all but the smart ones do. The other ones vote Republican.
    CYMRO
  35. Biggest Redneck from Somewhere, United States writes: emilio D from Vancouver, Canada writes: Jf from Canada, Very interesting observation. I am thinking more of Donald Rumsfeld- his teeth of mass destruction.

    I was leaning towards Condi myself. Those are some choppers
  36. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: Synchronicity Tour I believe your comments are directed at 'non-christians' who live in Canada or the US who run to human rights boards etc. as opposed to non-christians who do not live as immigrants in Canada or the USA (or i guess europe). I suppose the obvious rejoinder to you would be that, in the narrow group you are talking about, the people needing 'protection' from a board are those in the minority. The majority (christians) hardly need protection from themselves. The 'secular' impluse in Canada and the USA has been to 1.) remove the dominant religion from government (jesus) and 2.) protect religious freedom (ie minority and majority right). Is there conflcit between #1 and #2 re: majority christians? Maybe, but only where they attempt to make their religion the basis of government (10 commandments in court, bible in science class). A minority religious group may argue to be exempted from a law (no motorcycle helmets for sikhs), but do not normally seek to impose their religion on others (ie hindus protesting to ban beef consumption in canada...never seen it to date). Where majority (christian) issues conflict with secularism is where the majority is trying to have its religion imposed on other or reflected in gov';t policy....hence why they can't rely on human rights boards or complaints.
  37. Sam Patel from Vancouver, Canada writes: Synchronicity Tour I believe your comments are directed at 'non-christians' who live in Canada or the US who run to human rights boards etc. as opposed to non-christians who do not live as immigrants in Canada or the USA (or i guess europe). I suppose the obvious rejoinder to you would be that, in the narrow group you are talking about, the people needing 'protection' from a board are those in the minority. The majority (christians) hardly need protection from themselves. The 'secular' impluse in Canada and the USA has been to 1.) remove the dominant religion from government (jesus) and 2.) protect religious freedom (ie minority and majority right). Is there conflcit between #1 and #2 re: majority christians? Maybe, but only where they attempt to make their religion the basis of government (10 commandments in court, bible in science class). A minority religious group may argue to be exempted from a law (no motorcycle helmets for sikhs), but do not normally seek to impose their religion on others (ie hindus protesting to ban beef consumption in canada...never seen it to date). Where majority (christian) issues conflict with secularism is where the majority is trying to have its religion imposed on other or reflected in gov';t policy....hence why they can't rely on human rights boards or complaints.
  38. g h from Canada writes: Scientists have actually been able to determine that this ancient human originated from Europe. They were able to tell by the really tight pants found beside the bones.
  39. Maximilian Widmaier from Vancouver, Canada writes: Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: 'What book was that? As a matter of fact it was Bishop Usherof the Anglican Communion who in the 19th century calculated the age of the earth. He added up all the 'begats' to arrive at his conclusion.'

    I was referring to The Bible, which is the canonical sacred text of the Christian religion. It is also the primary book that someone like Bishop Usherof would have consulted in his calculation. It's where the 'begats' are.
  40. r r from Canada writes: s like from Canada writes: '...I believe that God created the system of evolution. '

    I believe that the system of evolution created God. Believing in a higher power helped keep the cavemen warm at night.
  41. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: The more we think we know the more we find out how little we know.
  42. martha stewart from Canada writes: r r from Canada writes: s like from Canada writes: '...I believe that God created the system of evolution. '

    I believe that the system of evolution created God. Believing in a higher power helped keep the cavemen warm at night.

    ---------------

    Its about social hierarchies that our species, like many others, form to create group order. Thus those at the top need, and use, some God above them to give themselves the ultimate higher authority. Thus Bush or the Pope or whomever gets his 'orders' directly from God. You can't question that, can you? So if you don't do what they say, God will smite you, you'll burn in hell or, back in the hunter-gatherer days, the game won't let you kill it or it won't rain or whatever... Now its even scarier. If we don't listen to the new religion the climate will change and there will be a great flood... no, wait, that's been used before. Nothing new under the sun I guess.

    Or, like s like suggests, evolution keeps God from getting bored...
  43. Steve Not an Alberta Redneck from Calgary, Canada writes: Toronto G from York, Canada writes: 'Oh the church will just love this news.'

    Is the Spanish Inquisition still operating? Or did they fold their tent and join the CIA and Dubya on their Crusade? I'm sure their skills are needed!
  44. Tkk Z from Canada writes: So does that mean man comes out of Europe? I thought all the old fossils were found in Africa. This one appears older than the oldest African humanoid fossils.
  45. André Villeneuve from Canada writes: After carefully examining this peice of jaw bone I came to the conclusion that this human must have been the first Ne-Con of the BC era!
  46. National Action Committee on the Status of Elvis in Canada from Ottawa, Canada writes: Tkk Z from Canada writes: So does that mean man comes out of Europe?

    The early hominids lived in different places in the world, but the article in Nature magazine (below) states that the earliest known fossils of homo sapiens (us) were found in Ethiopia. So 'we' are still out of Africa.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/links/030612/030612-1.html
  47. Kevin Desmoulin from Toronto, Canada writes: Boy, I think we should slow down on the religion aspect pro and con, It just a piece of bone belong to a humanoid. Neat to know but not too much bearing on today,
    Lot of unexplained artifacts and ruins that suggest we know very little and will be surprised by new discoveries.
  48. TruthSeeker21 Says from Canada, Canada writes: All radiometric dating methods are based on extrapolating current rates of radioactive decay which can be calibrated with some degree of accuracy back only a few thousand years. Any dates earlier than that cannot be verified and the further back they are the more likely the dates are to be severely wrong. If you have ever done any drafting or surveying you know the necessity of calibrating your measuring devices. If you try to survey the border of a Province or entire Country with a 6' protractor to turn your angles you're going to be out by several hundred or even thousands of kilometers. It is the same with radiometric and other types of dating techniques. We can only calibrate them over about 5,000 years which is only 0.5% of a million years - lots of opportunity for erroneous extrapolation. There are no calendars or dated newpapers buried with fossils supposedly millions of years old so there is no way to calibrate the dating techniques. If three separate dating techniques are used in an attempt to legitimize the age of a fossil and they come up with the same date it looks good on paper but there's no proof that all three have been calibrated correctly. They could just as easily have been calibrated equally wrong. Creationists believe the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old based on verifiable history which can be calibrated with archaeological finds, geology etc. There is no hard, verifiable evidence that the earth is millions or billions of years old because there is no way to calibrate the so-called evidence that says it is with certainty.
  49. guy tozer from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Kind of blows the biblical timeline all to hell> OH< I forgot there is no hell , or heaven for that matter. Religion was formed to control the population, and make them subservient, and it worked.
  50. Darcy Meyer from Canada writes: TruthSeeker21.....I hope you are being sarcastic.

    If not please review radioactive decay. And BTW you could use a 6' protractor to survey the border of a province, you would just have to be able to understand the error involved in that measurement.
    Similarily you could map most of the word with a 3' compass.
  51. BiB AmomA from Canada writes: Martha... I watched frontline too. It made me mad.

    Science... here is how I judge the sciences in terms of their researchers adherence to scientific rigor: My opinion completely....I'll accept suggestions to change...

    Math// pure philosophy, perfect logic, excellent science.
    Physics// applied math, physical models, theory, empirics, rigor, units.
    Chemistry// molecular and elemental physics, models, some fuzzy models.
    Biology// applied chemistry, ecology, politics, models... science is wanting.
    Psychology//....bad biology...bad pseudoscience.. feelly..
    Anthropology and Sociology//... Non science...activism
    Paleontology ...voodoo...religion
    Astrology// ..astrology

    Paleontology is a religion unto itself. Bones... out of context... any story you wanna make is fine with me.
    \..//
  52. martha stewart from Canada writes: BiB - Your hierarchy of science makes sense to me... especially with math at the top. How much more pure can it get? I consider that to be the core of true science.

    I think your biology ranking is more complicated. So many fields. And there's a new strain called 'Conservation Biology' that is so deeply rooted in activism that it approaches voodoo in some cases... and sometimes deliberately dishonest voodoo. In fact, the cherry picking of information that Frontline showed looked a lot like it- then they wrap it what looks like serious math. You can imagine what that does to their models and predictions. Thus, everything is going extinct of course - unless these practioners save everything.

    And for what's its worth, sometimes when they have done enough digging and have plenty of specimens, they do sensibly apply math to paleontology and archaeology. But in cases like this story, not so sure. Doesn't really explain the context of this find or how they dated it. That really matters.
  53. martha stewart from Canada writes: Just went back and reread the article. Seems they did do a rigorous job on the dating - though they still don't explain the full context of the find and site. Guess will need to read the paper. Using takes some organic matter for carbon dating but they've added some new technique - "radioactive decay of sediments" ... wonder how they've tested that system out?

    I wonder more about the other questions... "He also expressed some caution... the newly found jawbone fragment... preserves a section not seen in the equivalent pieces found at Atapuerca in 1997. So assigning both to the same species must be provisional"

    Indeed. Recall that famous 'missing link' between birds and reptiles that the national geographic got all excited about but proved to be a composite of two different things? And who can forget Piltdown Man?

    Hey BiB - speaking of missing links, did you see the comments on the Antarctic story disappeared!!! Seriously unbelievable censorship.

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