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Seven days of shiva - who has the time?

HEATHER SOKOLOFF

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 11:15 AM EDT 30/03/08

The heightened urgency of contemporary life is transforming the traditional Jewish grieving ritual ...Read the full article

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  1. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes: It's really too bad that this article is so brief and provides absolutely no insight into the origins of the practices of shiva.

    Without such background it is almost impossible to know what the problem happens to be with the manner in which different people appear to practice shiva.
  2. Sean L. from Toronto Center, Canada writes: Why be concerned? There is no valid reason to adhere to dogma.

    I am not arguing that all elements of religion should be discarded, a sense of community and structured processes, such as Shiva, can be useful.

    But this is not 2000 years ago. Many traditions and religious dogmas should be challenged and can be flexible to adapt to modern times and our better understanding of the world around us.

    That said, I welcome everyone to abandon ancient superstitions, come over to the side of science and join the growing numbers of athiests! Just because you are an athiest does not mean you have to abandon the social aspects of your culture.
  3. Larry Perlman from Toronto, Canada writes: The issue, as I see it, concerns whether to follow established traditions or seek minimal closure in the first stage of the mourning process. In the former case, respect for the deceased and their close friends and family to mourn in a traditional environment makes for a strong case to allow the full seven days. However, in the latter case, as stated so eloquently in the article, limitations forced on us by modern times is a compelling argument to lessen the mourning period.

    The issue came up with the mourning for both of my parents. In each case, we decided to hold the Shiva for the full seven days, while allowing the siblings the option of staying at the Shiva house. As one may have expected, the last three or four days were quite lonely, but important times for the mourners.

    Another topic not mentioned in the article concerns the other stages of mourning in Jewish tradition -- traditions that continue for up to one year (for the son of the deceased) and includes daily prayers at their synagogue. It is a commitment that is quite difficult to follow in today's modern times but can be important for anyone wishing to adequately mourn their loved one. Again, the choice must be based on the individual and reflect their past traditions and obligations. There is no right or wrong way.
  4. H F from Canada writes: Another insight of how people use their religion when it is convenient. Either you practice your religion or don't. Changing age old practices that have been around for thousands of years, again is a show of how to make your faith bend to your ways, and not following traditional practices.
  5. Chris H from Canada writes: "Limitations imposed on us by by modern society"? Like the dogma of the Jewish faith, these limitations are also choices. I am not Jewish (Christine?) but I can see the social and psychological benefit of an unstructured extended period of time to begin grieving.

    I can also see how it would interfere with one's schedule, but mightn't that be the point?
  6. Are We Having This Conversation ? from Toronto, Canada writes: Sean L......thank you for sharing our anit-religious sentiments and for calling religion "superstitious" (please note the sarcasm!!). For the love of God, just because you don't believe in any religion does not give you the authority to call religion superstitious....that makes you sound so ignorant! You don't like religion....fine! No one asked you anyway, nor does your comment add to the point of this article.
    I am not practicing any religion, but I know well enough to RESPECT the many religions and beliefs that come along with those religions. I think the concept of shiva is great! A wonderful time to share the life of the person lost, and a great way to do community service for those in need!
  7. The choices we make decide our place in life from Canada writes: So what the article is really pointing out is that for many people organized religion is being forced to give way to modern society.

    It is about time.
  8. SusieQ 321 from NoWhereVille, Canada writes: I think it is a sad statement that you can't make the time to mourn your loved one in a manner that they may have mourned yo if the roles were reversed.
    Death interferes with life, isn't that the point of it?
    If you choose to practice a religion on an ongoing consistent basis, shouldn't you choose to practice all of it not just the convenient parts?
    I think if the person I was mourning was a practicing member of a religion etc regardless of my beliefs I would try and honour theirs or at least I hope I would.
  9. Sean L. from Toronto Center, Canada writes: “Are We Having This Conversation ? from Toronto, Canada writes: For the love of God, just because you don't believe in any religion does not give you the authority to call religion superstitious....that makes you sound so ignorant! You don't like religion....fine! No one asked you anyway” As your comment clearly illustrates, it is YOU who are ignorant. Ignorant that everyone has the constitutional right to free speech. Ignorant that everyone has the constitutional right to freedom of conscience. Ignorant that these rights let me, like every other citizen, present my personal views and criticisms of religion, regardless of any qualification. I do not need to “ask your permission”. I do not need to be any “authority” to exercise this right. You are behaving like a fascist, which is somewhat ironic given the article you choose to post your hateful post in deals with a religious custom of a group who were persecuted by fascists. I won’t bother to argue the science versus superstition component of my post with you, as you clearly lack the intellect to discuss this rationally. However if you could take off your goose-stepping boots and allow the blood to flow back to your brain, you would have noted that I stated the value of mourning traditions like Shiva, but that these cultural practices could be separated from the superstitious elements of religions, and participation in them does not preclude having a more enlightened view of the origins of the universe and man than that of someone from 2000 years ago.
  10. Winter Mute from Toronto, Canada writes: i don't want to be grieved for, and i am thankful that my irish roots recommend a wake/party for me after i am gone (preferably open bar), rather than some drawn out multi-day event. Btw, does any faith celebrate a birth for 7 days?? I think there has to be some symmetry in that regard, hmmm?

    religion is not unlike inoculation, in that it has benefits for society at large, but i can see why individuals might object to the personal costs/risks.

    so it goes
  11. S G from Canada writes: I have found observing the full seven days of Jewish mourning very helpful when I was mourning my grandparents. It was especially helpful when my grandmother died suddenly.

    It sounds like a grim ritual, but that's not necessarily the case. There are always funny memories that are shared. But the best part about shiva is that it is a place where you don't have to put on a brave, professional face. You can just experience the emotions that naturally happen when a loved one is lost.

    As for those posters who think all religious tradition should be jettisoned, they may wish to actually make a visit to a shiva house before they judge (by the way, visiting mourners is considered a supremely good act).
  12. mary wells from Canada writes: I know almost nothing of the Jewish faith but im wondering if the 7 days of sitting Shiva might be because years ago families and friends lived in other areas and there was no easy transportation to get to the grieving family quickly.Its a lovely tradition but im thinking it might be a bit overwhelming for the family.7 days of visitors, to me, would be very tiring.
  13. carol c from Canada writes: I like the idea of this. It carves out a reasonable amount of time to experience and share the agony of losing a loved one. There is a lot of wisdom in this as grief can take a long, long time to heal, and I believe giving yourself over to the emotion for a short period of time can help the process along immensely.

    I was listening to the radio the other day and an author was discussing how disturbing he found it that atheists were fundamentalists in their beliefs while professing to reject those kinds of beliefs. I found that to be true. I don't believe in a judeo-chirstian god myself, but I don't have any problem with those who do as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me. Suggesting that faith is ignorant and superstisious and stupid is forcing personal beliefs on others. It's just as fundamentalist a belief system as the black suited door knockers asking me about my relationship with Jesus.
  14. sidney Goldberg from writes: I sat Shiva for both my parents because of my respect for them. They gave me a life, fed, clothed and educated me. The Shiva gave me the time to reflect on the love they shared with me. Each year I go to Synagogue the evening of the first and second night and early in the morning after the first night. It is a simple obligation compared to the challenges they had in rasing a family. I understand that not everybody wishes to honor their parents they same way and respect their right to follow their own heart. I have no doubt upset Sean L by suggesting someone follow their own heart, since science has no direct proof that anyone should do that. What I find interesting is that some athiests resort to put downs in order to feel good about themselves. Sean I would rather believe in G-D, choose to live a moral life and one day find out G-D happens to not exist. At least I've followed my obligations and respected my parents. Sean an intelligent person or scientist is confident enough in their own belief that they don't have to put down others. It takes little intelligence to refer to someone who sits Shiva as following a Dogma. Maybe even someone like you can follow the idea of respect for parents. I've met people who were not religious at all and still respected the custom of inviting the community to come in and show respect. Sydney Joel Goldberg
  15. David Simon from Canada writes: Isn't this interesting? A topic purely relating to Jews and a little over a dozen posts, only about half coming from Jews.

    Either:

    1/ Jews are a quiet bunch, reticent in expressing their opinions.

    2/ This is not the NP.
  16. Al Walsh from Canada writes: David Simon from Canada writes: Isn't this interesting? A topic purely relating to Jews and a little over a dozen posts, only about half coming from Jews.

    Either:

    1/ Jews are a quiet bunch, reticent in expressing their opinions.

    2/ This is not the NP.
    ========
    what kind of a stupid comment is that?
  17. George BrownIII from Christmas Island writes: Shiva eh, you got me confused with the hindu god.
  18. raine turner from Canada writes: I don't think this needs to be turned into simply a 'Jewish' thing. In this world - I am only allowed one day off if a family member dies- 3 days if it is a child or spouse. Having the unfortunate path of losing my best friend (who was like a twin sister) and almost losing my only child- I can say that 1 or 3 days is certainly not enough time to even get over the shock never mind grieve. The idea of having 7 full days to grieve and let family and friends care for you sounds like something that should be in our modern day lives. To use 'corporate lingo' this might be helpful for the employeers as when the employee does return they have 'fast-tracked' the grieving process and may be better able to cope with the demands of the job. (Shiva of course is only for close family members - so you dont get Shiva- if it is a distand cousin so you can go to Hawaii!).
    Religions may have some rather strange 'rituals' from each other - however in an entirety I do believe many of those 'rituals' serve useful purposes---even if you are Hindu- Jewish, Muslim or atheist--
    we can all learn from some 'old ways'.
  19. Cathy M from Canada writes: carol c wrote that atheism is ..."just as fundamentalist a belief system as the black suited door knockers asking me about my relationship with Jesus. "

    Well said. Anyone who claims to know THE truth, insisting that others are WRONG, sounds at best silly, and at worst ... well the evidence of how badly that can go is everywhere in the world.

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