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Is it something we said?

MATT HARTLEY

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 11:34 PM EDT 13/05/08

Higher prices, later launches and still no iPhone – you might think Apple hates Canada. It's not quite that simple ...Read the full article

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  1. Andrea Hitchman from Canada writes: It does feel like apple is ignoring the canadian public.

    It seems they're putting in the motions though.


    http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/app/cipo/trademarks/search/viewTrademark.do;jsessionid=0000QOUFZMQZ4055a1E8DK_gfKk:1247nfca5?language=eng&fileNumber=1377036&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=1
  2. Brian Kates from Winnipeg, Canada writes: If we had two GSM carriers in Canada (or said differently, someone other than Rogers), we would have had the iPhone a year ago.
  3. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes:
    Apple doesn't hate Canada, we're just a small market, hence higher prices and late service.

    The iPhone thing though? That is 100% our own fault and can be squarely laid at the feet of our politicians (from all sides) that have continued to enforce our STUPID protectionist rules that prevent foreign competition. This policy that is hurting Canadian customers and businesses on the international field, costing us jobs, is also costing us the iPhone.

    We won't get the iPhone until Rogers, Bell and Telus have REAL competition.
  4. Guido Sartucci from Flin Flon, Canada writes: Bad bad reporting. Canadian inferiority and whining at it's worst.

    iPhone is not here because the only system they can use is Rogers. Who knows how hard a time Rogers is giving them in the negotiations. Well as a cable customer, I have a pretty good idea.

    It is complete BS that they are discriminating against Canada. Go to the Apple UK website, do the conversion and Canadians will feel like Apple's best friends. Man those poor sods across the pond are getting thoroughly reamed.

    If they are discriminating against Canada, who are they sucking up to? Go to any of the Apple international sites and do the conversions, we are getting the best deal besides the US.

    Yeah they are charging us 5% or so more when currency is at parity. That is still a bargain when you consider what it costs for a company to operate in Canada versus USA. Taxes way higher here, productivity way lower.

    Further, the online Apple store ships orders for free. Shipping in/to Canada is way more costly than in the USA. That alone might make up the 5% difference.

    Some of the older products have a greater variance than the current 5% or so, but that is because Apple only changes the pricing when a new model is brought on line. Those older models still reflect our previously debased currency.

    Canada is the only country in the world except USA where Apple offers refurbished hardware at significant discounts.

    The gripe Canadians should have with Apple is regarding it's abusive tactics to it's independent and often very loyal retailers. Apple treats them like absolute dirt, puts them out of business which makes it hard for Canadians to get quality local service. The only Apple corporate stores are in Toronto.
  5. M. T. MacPhee from Canada writes: Uhh... Microsoft Office is made and priced by... wait for it... Microsoft. Apple has nothing to do with Microsoft's egregious pricing for the product in Canada. Only Microsoft is to blame.

    In the interest of balanced reporting, maybe you should discuss the pricing of music on iTunes. USA price for a song: 99¢. Canadian price for a song: 99¢. This pricing was true long before the Canadian dollar was anywhere near parity.

    It is true that Apple is a hard company to love, but only grind them to the extent they deserve it. And there are large technology companies that are much harder to love than Apple. For instance, I can think of one that is a convicted criminal.
  6. Mark Wells from Edmonton, Canada writes: I second the comments by Guido re: bad reporting. The key source for this story should have been a spokesman at Rogers, not some analyst that knows next to nothing about technology.

    The fate of the iPhone rests with Rogers, full stop. Apple is demanding that wireless carriers offer a fair mobile internet package, and Rogers isn't biting. Apple got AT&T to offer a truly unlimited data plan (not one of these nanny plans offered by Rogers that only let you visit sites Rogers has cut a deal with) with 450 daytime minutes and 5000 evening and weekend minutes included for a just $59 USD a month. Rogers plans aren't even in the same league.

    There are rumours that Apple is creating a "3G" Telus network-compatible iPhone as well, but don't expect anything to truly change until the CRTC and/or Competition Bureau wakes up and smells the duopoly.

    The real question isn't "does Apple hates Canada?" but "why does Rogers hate Canada?"
  7. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: Despite the hype, nobody really uses Mac crap in significant numbers. Jobs has to make his own Mac software because no other company writes software for the Mac. Even Adobe manuals are all illustrated with Windows now and half the Adobe software isn't even available for Macs. The iPhone is another overpriced ego trip for Jobs. They don't have the money to come here.
  8. Sun Ra from Chelsea, Canada writes: This is lousy reporting and belongs more in a tabloid than the G&M.
  9. Marley B from Vancouver, Canada writes: What is lousy reporting about this article? This is a valid and interesting news/opinion piece. I have often wondered why memory for my Mac is markedly higher in price here in Canada. It's not whining about anything - it's asking questions.

    A tabloid? Are you serious?

    I have to ask Sun Ra or Guido Sartucci: are you both journalists?
  10. Anton Berger from Kelowna, Canada writes: all Mac products are overprice with dodgy quality. the only reason I can see for them selling at all is that they are colourful and shiny!

    to be perfectly honest I didn't notice the lack of an iPhone here in Canada. and I'm going to continue not noticing!
  11. C M from Canada writes: No, not Apple.

    1. Stupid protectionist policies by the CRTC.

    2. Very greedy cellphone provider who has a monopoly on the GSM network.
  12. Gerry Curry from Yarmouth, Canada writes: Apple's software pricing is now on a par with the US. Hardware is a little more, but this is the case for virtually all products for sale in Canada. Priced a car lately?

    As for the iPhone, I'd rather have no iPhone than an iPhone connected to Rogers.
  13. Tony Bennett from Canada writes: The problem is Roger's is too greedy and not interested in serving Canadians properly.
  14. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: Ah, Apple loyalists. Gotta love 'em!

    Far be it from me to tarnish your utopian vision that a narcissistic multi-millionaire control freak should be the moral compass for the planet.

    Look, I realize that Apple makes bright, colourful gadgets and they sell them using bright, colourful commercials but that, in itself, doesn't prove they're good people.

    Has it occurred to any of you people that perhaps it is unreasonable for Apple to expect Rogers to change their entire pricing model for a SINGLE PRODUCT? No, it probably hasn't eh?

    The article may be inaccurate in suggesting that the failure to negotiate an agreement is all Apple's fault, but you people aren't any better by suggesting that it's all Rogers' fault.

    Maybe the next time you want moral guidance you should look to your friends or family instead of a multi-national corporation.
  15. Comments are Closed from Toronto, Canada writes: We're a backwater that just happen to speak English. Denmark will have the iPhone before we do. Web announcements and press releases are always days behind Cupertino. Maybe it's the translation time?

    Whether or not they like us is irrelevant. They certainly like our money. But I feel AAPL have been reasonable on prices here. If you want to see real price gouging go look at camera accessories. You Markham distributors know who you are.
  16. A C from Albertario, Canada writes:
    Mr Hartley,

    Apple doesn't hate Canadians as much as it hates bad reporting. And it would appear that most of the posters here don't much care for it either.

    Consult your own article to answer the question: when iTunes "began offering TV shows, negotiations with Canadian networks prevented their distribution through iTunes Canada for more than two years after they went on sale in the U.S"

    Did you note the part about Canadian networks preventing their distribution? That might be a germane point to reflect upon when one's trying to determine who "hates" Canadians (like hate has anything to do with it--we're not talking about a blood feud here, Sonny Corleone).

    And if you care to read the article about the iPhone: "Most experts . . . believe that the high rates Canadian telecom providers charge for mobile Internet data transfer plans are the biggest factor keeping the iPhone out of Canada." You'll have a pretty good undertanding of why the iPhone isn't more common in Canada.

    Again, it's not Apple, it's a Canadian company and regulatory constraints that prevent the product from launching here.

  17. I_Hate_David Miller from Toronto, Canada writes: I agree with the other posts. The reason we don't have the iPhone is Rogers plain and simple. They continue to raise all their monthly fees and are now going to charge by volume downloaded for their internet. If you want to download the movie rentals all you need to do is get a US iTunes gift card and use that serial number and download from the .com and not .ca...or that's what they told me in the Apple Store anyway.
  18. Luke R from Toronto, Canada writes: Actually folks. The real reason why we don't hvae a lot of those things is the CRTC whose job it is to protect Rogers.
  19. A C from Albertario, Canada writes:
    Another Opinion writes: Far be it from me to tarnish your utopian vision that a narcissistic multi-millionaire control freak should be the moral compass for the planet.

    I thought Ted Rogers was a billionaire?

    Another Opinion writes: Has it occurred to any of you people that perhaps it is unreasonable for Apple to expect Rogers to change their entire pricing model for a SINGLE PRODUCT? No, it probably hasn't eh?

    I dunno, ask ATandT about that. According to a recent survey/study by Rubicon, "the iPhone has probably increased AT&T's gross service revenue by about $2 billion per year.

    Is that worth changing pricing models for?

    (simply google "rubicon" and "iPhone" to find/ read the whitepaper)

    Besides, the bottom line is that the iPhone not being in Canada has nothing to do with Apple and everything to do with the state of the Canadian mobile data market.

    .
  20. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: "I agree with the other posts. The reason we don't have the iPhone is Rogers plain and simple. They continue to raise all their monthly fees and are now going to charge by volume downloaded for their internet."

    SO?

    Everyone on this forum slurping Apple seems to presume that it's perfectly natural that ONE PRODUCT should be permitted a competitive advantage over every other product in the marketplace, but NOBODY has explained WHY they should be simply handed that advantage.

    All these posts suggest that Rogers is simply being greedy. How so? Apple is asking Rogers to give the iPhone preferential treatment in the marketplace. Seems to me it's Apple being greedy, not Rogers.

    As an aside, I don't particularly care but if I were to want ONE company to get a competitive advantage over all others... I'm thinking I'd prefer a CANADIAN company like RIM. You're going to have to explain this blind, nausea-inducing loyalty to a foreign company because I'm clearly not understanding the logic behind it.
  21. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: "the bottom line is that the iPhone not being in Canada has nothing to do with Apple and everything to do with the state of the Canadian mobile data market."

    Ummmm.... no.

    The iPhone not being in Canada has to do with Apple refusing to accept the current pricing model in this country. Granted, maybe it's a bad model but no other vendor to my knowledge has refused to do business here.

    The model itself isn't PREVENTING Apple from doing business here. There's no law STOPPING Apple from selling iPhones in Canada as long as they resolve the copyright dispute.

    While I appreciate the "Rogers is evil" argument, there isn't a lot of basis behind it... at least none that any of you have managed to provide.
  22. jeff johns from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: I have an ipod touch and it has free web browsing. If I want to make a phone call I also have a virgin mobile phone with no fees, just pay as you go. I have a $12.99 trac phone from wallmart I use when I visit the united states, again no monthly fees, pay as you go. When I need to make long distance international calls I use skype-also free and very cheap. Who needs Rogers or an I-phone.
    Mr.Johns
  23. A C from Albertario, Canada writes: Another Opinion writes: "

    All these posts suggest that Rogers is simply being greedy. How so? Apple is asking Rogers to give the iPhone preferential treatment in the marketplace. Seems to me it's Apple being greedy, not Rogers.

    You'd have a point if Apple wasn't successful in working deals in about a dozen other countries.

    As to the notion of preferring a Canadian company, do you only drink Canadian wine and whiskey? Or is it alright that the foreign hordes sell their offshore swill to gullible Canadians?

    How's that Canadian-made television content working out for you?
    Gotta love that Air Farce, eh?



  24. bruce desjardins from Windsor, Canada writes: As a resident of a border city, it is possible to get an Iphone on an american account, and roam. Rogers' roaming charges would amount to more than 300 dollars a month. Easy decision there.

    Many Iphones are being used here, hacked and running very well on Rogers blackberry accounts.

    Itunes offers tv in canada now...all canadian shows. Obviously not Apple's preference, and undoubtedly the fault of the CRTC.

    As for the difference in price, have you bought a book, magazine or greeting card lately? Dumb article undoubtedly written on a Windoze machine.
  25. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: "As to the notion of preferring a Canadian company, do you only drink Canadian wine and whiskey?"

    With all due respect to your tone, all I said is that if I WERE to want one company to get preferential treatment, I'd prefer it were a Canadian company. As I said I really don't care and all things being equal NO company should receive preferential treatment.

    But then, I'm not the one screaming my lungs out because Apple isn't getting a better deal than everyone else. You can keep trying to turn the argument around, but essentially your case is that Rogers is bad for not treating Apple special.
  26. Allan Ross from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow more junk journalism on the subject of Apple. You'd think they were as bad as the auto companies with their huge price differences between the US and Canada. Did you look at the number of Apple products that have the same price in Canada and the US? Did you contact Rogers to find out what their take on the iPhone was? After all they are the only Canadian GSM provider that you alluded to in the article and they have control over the data pricing that you refer to. And finally, Microsoft sets the price of Office not Apple, if you check any number of websites you will find that Office 2008 fro Mac is significantly more expensive at all Canadian retailers than in the US.
  27. Michael abcde from Toronto, Canada writes: Underpopulated, overregulated market.

    Add to that the questionable business practices of the 3 cellular providers and this is what you get. (try to cancel a cell phone account from Rogers and you will see what I mean)

    Protectionist measures like the ones that regulate our telecom, insurance, tv, etc., industries never work. It is the consumer that ultimately pays the price, in this case, by not being able to purchase an iphone, or many other models from Nokia, Sony, etc.

    Luckily there is always the GST (gone shopping to Tonawanda) plus quite a few places that unlock iphones in the GTA.
  28. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Canadian insecurity.

    Apple is currently negotiating with ChinaMobile for iPhone access to the 360 Million Chinese cell phone users .... projections of 600 Million by the end of the decade.

    China ... Canada ... China ... Canada ... tough decision.
  29. No Left or Right Just Neutral from Canada writes: Luke R from Toronto, Canada writes: Actually folks. The real reason why we don't hvae a lot of those things is the CRTC whose job it is to protect Rogers.

    Luke, you are absolutely right!! Rogers' doesn't want their customers saving money by using the WiFi option on the Iphone.

    A typical Canadian whiner article!
  30. A C from Albertario, Canada writes:
    Ed Long writes: Apple is currently negotiating with ChinaMobile for iPhone access to the 360 Million Chinese cell phone users .... projections of 600 Million by the end of the decade.

    Sure, but then again, China has a history of being more free-market friendly and easier to negotiate with than Canada, so there's really no surprise in this. ;-)

    Given recent developments we can't really be surprised if Apple's iPhone is in common in Cuba before it's in Canada

    .
  31. Child of the North in Canada from Canada writes: 'Another Opinion' your logic is warped. I am sure Apple would love to have more than one provider to bargain with other than Rogers so quit with the notion that they are trying to squeeze Rogers. Agree with posters that government controls not Apple are the problem in Canada.

    As for pricing, I purchased my Apple online with very little difference in price and free shipping. As one poster noted, check out the difference in prices on magazines these days. The American publishers have got sneaky. They only post a Canadian price on the magazine but it is still 30% higher than what Americans are paying for it in the States. I would like to see if companies like Sonoma-Williams and Pottery Barn have brought their prices down in their Canadian stores to match their American store prices. I suspect there is still a substantial difference.
  32. M Clarke from Canada writes: Will never buy another piece of Apple hardware again - it's total junk. (Pretty looking, but junk nonetheless.)
  33. itsmy opinion from Canada writes: In my business, Canada is a very small market. We don't spend much marketing dollars here. Unfortunately, this country is a small market for many products and services, so it makes fiscal sense to target more lucrative markets. Communications monopolies here don't play well with others.
  34. Ed Op from Canada writes: We're the size of California, we're spread out over a huge area and as the article rightly points out, there have been legitimate obstacles for several of Apple's products. iTunes was held up by rights negotiations, same with TV shows, I'm sure movies are the same deal. iPhone is being held up by that lame little VoIP provider that's insisting on cashing in on the iPhone name. Pricing I can understand - Canadian dollar at parity is a very recent thing and is not necessarily the new status quo - do we expect all imported goods to peg their retail prices to every dollar fluctutation? No. I'm sure if the dollars stay close, we'll see more adjustments from Apple and other retailers. It's ridiculous to say, as one poster did, that Apple is slow into Canada because of our higher taxes and lower productivity - Apple doesn't make anything here, they just sell in a few stores and coordinate some distribution through one head office in Markham, Ontario. Tax rates and productivity have virtually no impact on this kind of operation.

    At the end of the day, how hard can we expect a multinational corporation to work to bring products to Canada? We're very small by world standards. I get that some companies use us as a test market but Apple has a different approach. They do it right once and then they roll it out worldwide.

    Also don't forget (as this article fails to mention) that pretty much every other product that Apple has launched has come to Canada at about the same time as it does to the States.

    Come to think of it, this is a pretty lame article making an issue out of nothing. Why am I wasting my time commenting on it?
  35. Tough Camper from Vancouver, Canada writes: I blame ROGERS for this.

    Rogers behaves just like Bell Canada, before there was any competition.

    Back then, everyone went around complaining about Bell, and paying outrageous rates. As soon as there WAS competition, we all remembered the years of HOSING, and left Bell (who only then lowered their pricing). I left out of pure spite.

    The same will happen to ROGERS. All these years of abusive profit-taking (and crap service!!!!), will come back on them.

    Oh, and re: the small cell-phone market in Canada? I earn a 6-figure income, but I stopped my cell-phone service about 3 years ago, when I couldn't stomach the high prices anymore. The pricing here is WAAAY out of line with service in other countries.

    If the CRTC was listening, they'd see Canadians' needs are not being served.

    And yes, dang it- I WANT THAT IPHONE!!!!

    PS- Rogers we hate you.
  36. Andrew Ion from Toronto, Canada writes: The article doesn't mention it, but the iPhone has also been deployed to smaller markets like Ireland as well... Apple isn't deploying by market size.

    Interestingly enough, there's nothing keeping Apple from selling iPhones today without Rogers (i.e. as an unlocked phone available at the Apple Store, bring your own GSM SIM card). It IS compatible, after all. But I would argue that Apple cares more about experience than other companies. They don't want to enter a deal with Rogers with current data rates because then people will associate the iPhone with a ridiculously high wireless bill. This is why a partnership is necessary. And while it may seem unreasonable for one company to ask Rogers to change their entire pricing plan, take a step back and look at the bigger picture:

    We are being gouged. Apple is only requesting that we are offered data at reasonable rates like other companies in the rest of the world. Does anyone know why RIM hasn't done this?

    And regarding preferential treatment of foreign vs domestic companies. As a consumer, I care about who has a better product. Preferential treatment is how we got the holy trinity/oligopoly of providers in the first place.
  37. Kevin Dooley from Canada writes: The article is pretty clear, although it hides the truth in one small paragraph in the middle of the text: "Most experts, however, believe that the high rates Canadian telecom providers charge for mobile Internet data transfer plans are the biggest factor keeping the iPhone out of Canada."

    There you have it in a nutshell. You'd have to be crazy to use an iPhone in Canada because of the astronomical rates charged by Canadian cell providers. More particularly, because the iPhone is GSM only and doesn't support CDMA (as nobody in their right mind would, except Nortel and Bell, but then I repeat myself), and there is only 1 GSM provider in Canada, Rogers, the central problem is that Rogers charges too much for its service and it is therefore not economically viable to sell iPhones in Canada.

    From Apple's perspective, a Canadian launch of the iPhone would attract a lot of attention followed by intense scorn and ridicule when the early adopters get their first month's bill. Apple doesn't want to live through that, even though the fault would be entirely with Rogers for overcharging.

    So I'd restate the question. It's not "does Apple hate Canada", it's "why do Rogers and Bell hate Canada and why do the CRTC and Industry Canada let them get away with it?"
  38. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: RIM loves it.
  39. Bill James from Kingston, Canada writes: Nothing in the article surprises me, but some of the comments do. I've owned four Mac computers since 2001, after 20 years of pc's previously. I would never go back, and it's functionality, durability, and phone and online support--not just aesthetics (tho' that's great too). My 2 laptops and 2 desktops are still in daily use by family members.
    I don't give a rip about itunes, ipods, and iphones, and when they're released and who gets the most first. And their computer pricing seems fairly close to the US. If I'm bugged by anything about Macs it's the delay in shipping new products to Canada once released (it seems only after all the American orders have been filled), and the proprietary nature of their product linkages. Publishing to a website from iphoto favours the expensive dotmac service, etc.
    But check Consumer Reports for details of the repair records for Macs and user feedback on their support service. They are outstanding, and that's why there's brand loyalty from purchasers. (Not to mention relative freedom from viruses.)
  40. Mark T. from Toronto, Canada writes: Look at it this way; we continue to pay the exorbitant data plan rates here in Canada, so that the Teachers (BCE) can continue to have a pension plan, and Ted Rogers can fulfill his dream of owning an NFL franchise...
  41. Vern says you're a liar from Ottawa, Canada writes: Richard...RIM has come out and said that Canadians will only be getting crippled blackberry devices in the future due to high data access fees.

    This has nothing to do with Apple. this has everything to do with Rogers.
  42. K Kloet from Hamilton, Canada writes: i have a friend in turkey who's got an iphone.

    take that, canada.
  43. mark demkiw from edmonton, Canada writes: All comes down to $$$. Inside information tell me that %50 of Rogers cellular profits comes from downloading of background images and ring tones.
    With the iphone available in the Canadian market;
    POOFF goes the revenue.
    Rogers is obviously not interested in pushing forward; and Apple perceives the Canadians economy as a small piracy market.
    Sooner or later Blackberry will have a touchscreen available, Apple may join the scramble.

  44. Miss Lady from Alberta, Canada writes: Maybe some of the stuff in the article is beyone Apple's control, but the charge for hosting websites - why the huge difference between US and Canada? It's not like they are paying duties at the border or the CRTC is charging them a fee to store my data. My Canadian data does not need to be translated into French - there is no reason for the higher price to Canadians other than "because we can." It is something I looked into (I am a happy Mac user and would have paid the website costs until I saw the hideous price difference when the Canadian dollar was above par).
    And if they can do this for website hosting, maybe other people have a point, and they are marking up other stuff for Canadians just for the heck of it, and not really because of business costs.
  45. Nick Simmons from Ottawa, Canada writes: Marley B from Vancouver wrote "I have often wondered why memory for my Mac is markedly higher in price here in Canada". Err - it's not. Apple uses standard memory, therefore, your statement is moot. As for it being expensive, internet shopping is a great thing and you can find plenty of bargains.

    As for the statement re prices being higher in Canada than the US, let's not forget that a product is only worth what the market will pay. Therefore, Canada has determined that it is willing to pay these above US prices. If it wasn't then we'd see prices drop or Apple moving out of the market entirely. Let's not forget that the cost of doing business in Canada is also greater than the States, together with the cost of shipping products over the border lead to higher prices. But that wouldn't be as good a story, would it?

    Re the iPhone - that's entirely the fault of the monopoly that is Rogers and Canada's stupidity and willingness to pay data rates that are greater than 3rd world nations. Why would Rogers want to give up such a sweet deal? Think additional sales, Rogers...there is more than the corporate market out there willing to give you money for data plans.
  46. michael luger from montreal, Canada writes: did tivo hate canada, is that why it took so long to come here, i think not; apple's iphone, by the time it gets here will probably generate the same luke warm reaction that tivo did.

    i am glad however to see the quebecor may be joining the pack of carriers/providers.. perhaps we will finally see the fruits ( lower rates ) that competion is supposed to provide.

    if however another carrier can't bring lower rates and better service, perhaps it's time to create a privatized carrier that combines postal, voice, data, and entertainment communications to all canadians at an affordable price point.
  47. Chris Levesque from Calgary, Canada writes: This is indeed lousy reporting. I don't know where the writer got the idea that the iTunes Music Store didn't launch in Canada until nearly four years after the US launch -- it was actually 18 months. The store opened to American customers in June/03 and for Canadians in Dec/04. The fact-checker really dropped the ball here when they stated the store was available to Americans in Jan/01; the iPod wasn't even sold until ten months after that date!
  48. JD student from vancouver, Canada writes: the problem is TED ROGERS... he's greedy. If you were steve jobs, would you want to deal with him?
  49. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: This article only touched on the surface of the 'real' why we don't have the iphone. We have a monopoly here folks. The only GSM carrier which the Iphone requires is Rogers who also owns Fido. Rogers doesn't want competition for the Blackberry which it promotes.

    Data in Canada is the highest cost in the world which is beyond unfair and puts us at a business disadvantage.

    Look to Roger's folks and blame them. This has nothing to do with Apple ignoring Canada.

    We have allowed this GSM monopoly to dictate. No free market in telecom here.
  50. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: It's not one side or the other's "fault," it's just simple market economics. Rogers is going to try to maximize profits, as is Apple. Each side would love it if the other simply bended to its whims, but that obviously won't happen. If there were more competition (on either end), this would probably lower one side's expectations, but there isn't -- this is dictated by market size and barriers to entry, part of which are still regulatory, but not entirely.

    What I'm wondering about is why everyone keeps referring to Canada as a "small market." Canada is the world's 9th largest economy according to the CIA factbook (if you take the EU as one entity, then even higher) -- how is that a small market?
  51. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: It is evident after reading through this blog that most of us could have written a more accurate article about the iphone than what was presented.

    We should be screaming at our politicians of all colours and demanding answers as to why the CRTC allowed this unfettered monopoly to gouge us? The CRTC deregulated the monopoly and not to allow more competition for the consumer benefit but deregulated what they were allowed to charge in rates. So we have a monopoly that can charge whatever they please and a captive market.

    We have the highest data rates in the world thanks to Rogers. No wonder he's a billionaire --not rocket science there.

    This should be an election issue. How can we be competitive as it is money off the bottom line of our companies. It'd be interesting to see corporate Canada's Blackberry bills on mass. As it is then expensed the taxpayer subsidizes Roger's profits vicariously.
  52. Wealthy CEO of a Canada Retailer from Canada writes: People the prices in Canada is not high at all. Canada's market is roughly 1/10th of the US. To match up, prices of every item should sell 10 times more than US. That is only fair to valuable people like Ted Rogers. Think about that - Canda PM makes the same amount of money as US president, why Ted Rogers should be worth much less than his US couterpart. And you always can walk down south of the border. The staple of the country is man like Ted Roger, the "core". Yes the life sucks if you do not belong to the "core". Quit whining.
  53. M Y from Richmond, Canada writes: It is simply because it is a small market here. 23 million people across the vast land, too few prospective customers, too large area.
  54. C. S. from Canadia, Canada writes: "No Left or Right Just Neutral from Canada writes: ... Luke, you are absolutely right!! Rogers' doesn't want their customers saving money by using the WiFi option on the Iphone."

    Take a look guys ... Rogers already has at least two devices in their lineup with WiFi ... HTC Touch and the latest Blackberry Pearl ... and more to come. Yep, they hate consumers alright.
  55. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: The itouch is the next best thing as there is so much wi'fi out there now that you can do all the surfing and emailing for free with the exception of phoning. Free data on wifi!
  56. No Left or Right Just Neutral from Canada writes: K Kloet from Hamilton, Canada writes: i have a friend in turkey who's got an iphone.

    take that, canada.
    ***

    Kloet, there are lot of people in Canada who got iPhones. They did cross border shopping when the Canadian dollar was high and just plugged in their SIM cards.

    You can buy them at the Pacific Mall in Toronto!

    Rogers doesn't want them because with wifi, they can't rape your wallet with data package fees!
  57. john wardle from Canada writes: I agree with another poster...."Bad bad reporting. Canadian inferiority and whining at it's worst.".

    Stop feeling so inferior Canada, I don't by the small market garbage anymore. This isn't a small market, it's just a really difficult market to negotiate when certain local companies wish to hang on to their monopolies.
  58. Gabriel Hall from Calgary, Canada writes: It's not only that.. our mobile services costs are extravagantly high with low feature usage penetration, which doesn't build a very good business case for the iPhone.

    You can blame Rogers and the rest of the mobile providers for keeping mobile costs so high that they've either scared off most of the manufacturers from releasing feature rich handsets in our market, or have actively prevented them from doing so to drive down their artificially high mobile revenues.
  59. Bill Smith from Canada writes: B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes:
    What I'm wondering about is why everyone keeps referring to Canada as a "small market." Canada is the world's 9th largest economy according to the CIA factbook (if you take the EU as one entity, then even higher) -- how is that a small market?

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    We have the world's 9th largest economy due to our trade with the hated Yanks. When ranked by population Canada is a very small market.
  60. Mark Mitchell from London, Canada writes: Its funny how you cannot go one day on the G&M without reading one-hundred-plus people complain about the CRTC, Rogers, and Bell.... yet nothing is ever done about.

    Gotta love Canadian Democracy.

    P.S. - Seconded, Rogers, we hate you.
  61. Midtown Bob from Toronto, Canada writes: Screw the Ihaveno_ideaPhone, the berry is much more practical and better device though it doesn't have the effin' COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ads.
  62. Krusty G from Ontariario, Canada writes: Wow, now the iDiots are complaining that they're not being marketed to fast enough. Wow. Unsuspecting consumers, every last one of you.

    Dupe away Mr Jobs, we've got gaping maws a-plenty up here.
  63. Canadian MP from Aboriginal reserve, Canada writes: Apple does not hate Canada. it is just little business incentive to play with the "rules of our Canadian partners" and top the priority. think Rogers alike.
  64. Alister MacKinnon from Vancouver, Canada writes: Why would Apple want to tarnish their reputation by selling a phone that's too expensive to use? Cellphone service is flat out rip-off in Canada. I got rid of my cellphone because I was tired of being gouged. Unless you REALLY need one, you're a fool to use a cell phone in this country. I will never get a cellphone again unless: a) the rates drop, or b) I move out of the country. Speak with your dollar people! Terminate your contracts. Don't let the cancellation fees deter you, in most cases paying the fee is still cheaper than letting them continue gouge you every month until your contract expires. Companies like Rogers won't change their ways until they start losing business, they don't give a damn about our griping.
  65. Slippery Slope from Canada writes: We're being gouged by our cellphone service providers.
  66. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Bill Smith from Canada writes: We have the world's 9th largest economy due to our trade with the hated Yanks. When ranked by population Canada is a very small market.

    Only when compared to the very largest countries. Yet Canada isn't actually that small on a global scale -- it would be something like the 7th largest country in Europe if it were there. Moreover, there seem to be no issues servicing much smaller developed countries like the Netherlands, the Nordic countries, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, etc.

    If it really took a massive national population to get products, obviously the vast majority of the world -- developed or developing -- would be without telecom (or anything else). Clearly that isn't the case.
  67. agesixracer _ from Canada writes: C R T C.
  68. The Wight from Canada writes: What the heck is an iPhone? LOL.

    I just got my brand-new iPaq 210 a few weeks ago for less than half of what unlocked iPhones are going for on eBay. It's got both wireless protocols, expandable storage where the iPhone is fixed AND two different slots (flash and SD) that are both I/O. That means I can buy any of roughly 50 expansion cards to add in functionality from GPS receivers to hand scanners to ethernet ports to 56K modems. With the right cards (56K and ethernet, in particular), I could quite feasibly place a VoIP call in 80-90% of Canada.

    Add in my folding iGo keyboard and it's a poor man's notebook with a much better screen than the iPhone, too. Sure, this won't satisfy a true mobile professional or a text-addicted tween, but for reasonable use by a reasonable person, this should be fine.

    My Fido/Rogers account is in serious jeopardy.
  69. The Wight from Canada writes: B.C. Expat:

    "Moreover, there seem to be no issues servicing much smaller developed countries like the Netherlands, the Nordic countries, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Ireland, etc."

    Their population, while similar, takes up considerably less area. We have infrastructure costs that no other country in the world has to put up with because of our size relative to our population.
  70. Walter Piovesan from Ottawa, writes: Amen! to what father "Guido Sartucci" says. The big hurdle here in Canada is Rogers! Ted Rogers is the complete opposite of what Steve Jobs is. Rogers are not in the least bit consumer oriented .. . and eventually they will pay big for their folly. The new GSM carrier will win the iPhone deal.
    Overall this report is totally out to lunch! Your gripes should be aimed at Rogers CRTC et al.
  71. Sandy Hum from Toronto, Canada writes: Re: Midtown Bob from Toronto, Canada writes: Screw the Ihaveno_ideaPhone, the berry is much more practical and better device though it doesn't have the effin' COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ads.

    Sorry, us iPhone users are snobby pretentious elitist ... did you say something?
  72. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: The Wight, do you work for a telco? I remember I was arguing with you about this point a few months ago too (or perhaps it was someone else).

    As I said before, that whole Canada is spread out with 33 million people while the US is not is complete BS.

    Fact: Canada is by FAR much much MUCH more urbanized than the United States. Look at all the statistics, far more Canadians live in cities and towns than American's do. Period. Unless we plan on delivering 3G services to remote regions of Labrador, it doesn't matter how spread out we are, you can't just divide our total landmass by population and say oh well that explains it.

    The cost of building, maintaining, and running a network, related only to population density, should be less in Canada than it is in the US.

    This isn't about anything other than lack of competition in Canada. We don't let in foreign telecommunications companies to set up shop here, so we are in this position. That's the bottom line. Stop clouding the facts with nonsense. The day we get fed up with this we will drop foreign ownership restrictions, but before that day we need to get the NDP and some Liberals to shut up about their quasi-nationalistic protectionism that keeps a repugnant Canadian oligarchy protected while consumers are on the mat and getting gouged.
  73. Easy Writer from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow. There are more elephants in the room with this story than I can count.

    Bringing convergence products to Canada requires dealing with a lot of vested interests in terms of infrastructure and content. Part of the reason Canada is an unappealing market is because these vested interests are so highly entrenched and powerful.

    For example, the iPhone is at its best where there are liberal data usage policies through the local service provider. It is a documented fact that Canada has one of the worst rates for cellular data usage in the developed world. The elephant in the room there is that Rogers Telecomm has a lock of GSM networks in Canada and is probably refusing to alter its cash-cow data plans to suit the integrity of Apple's product. Corporations in the US and Europe have changed their data plans in order to carry Apple's products. The lack of competition in the GSM space allows Rogers to get away with this here.

    Secondly, there are also a lot of content distributors to deal with. Distributing music and TV means cutting deals with the vested interests. Apple has an economic reason to do this in the US, but in Canada it probably just isn't worth their time to get together with all the major TV and music re-distributers in Canada like Bell-Globe-CTV and other omnimedia outfits in order to liberalize Canada's approach to the digital content world.

    In other words, Canadian consumers are suffering because of the parochialism and self-interest of the major service and content providers.
  74. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: The Wight from Canada writes: Their population, while similar, takes up considerably less area. We have infrastructure costs that no other country in the world has to put up with because of our size relative to our population.

    What about Australia, then? Smaller population, smaller economy, comparable land-mass even more sparsely populated, and way on the other side of the world from most developed economies. Does telecom suffer in Australia? (I'm actually asking, I don't know).
  75. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Easy Writer: "In other words, Canadian consumers are suffering because of the parochialism and self-interest of the major service and content providers."

    Yes, but no. I can't blame Rogers, Telus, Bell, and anyone else for squeezing maximum money out of their investment. It would be against their fiduciary responsibility for them to not do so. In short, it is against the law for them to not gouge us. You can't blame the service providers for this, the blame lies with the Canadian government, and ultimately the Canadian people.

    If the government tomorrow announced effective immediately, the foreign restrictions on operation and ownership of Canadian telecommunications networks is 100% eliminated, the howls of protest would be immense. Jack Layton would be fuming about selling out to the Americans. The limosine Liberals would be going wild about a secret agenda of giving the country away. In short, two thirds of Canada's population would be outraged that we want to have options in wireless, and not be gouged by a "good Canadian" like Ted Rogers. How can you blame the carriers, when it's so obvious Canadian's actually LIKE to have the deck stacked against them? I hate Rogers too, but I have a love hate relationship with them. They annoy the heck out of me as a consumer, but as a shareholder, I'm pleased with them. Just this week their shares shot through the roof because it was revealed that no major foreign bidder is going after the Canadian wireless auction because this market is so messed up. In short, the shares went through the roof because the market knows that competition isn't coming, that Rogers can continue to milk GSM for all it's worth, and Bell and Telus can maintain the same in CDMA.
  76. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: Jimmy K: You have to remember that Canada is a tiny market with poor wireless infrastructure. While it is true that majority of the population lives in cities, it is also true that probably only a fraction thereof could be considered a "market" for apple. Also, keep in mind that Cdn. wireless market (coast to coast) is smaller (in people/units/however you measure it) than some regional markets in the US.

    I am not sure that Canada is more urbanized. Just look at the map of the US and map of Canada; while there is a network of major cities throughout the US, there are only 1-2 major cities per Province in Canada.

    In the wireless world, Canada looks more like the last frontier (bears, lakes and all) than an urbanized market. You have to compare apples to apples (pun intended).

    Also, price for iPhone data plan would be outrageous. With Rogers, "unlimited data" means "up to 10MB per month". I use that much data daily (email and surfing).

    Thankfully, cell phones are not a must-have but it would be nice to have a world-class wireless network and services in Canada.
  77. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: And another thing The Wight, go take a look at the 10-K (annual reports) of Rogers and of, say, Verizon. Look at the wireless results and compare the margins. You'll see that Canadian wireless is a goldmine for these guys. This isn't about population density, this is about stupid Canadian rules against competition. One day we may finally realize the Soviet Union did not work and neither will their crappy government protected monopolies that live on in Canada (banks, telecom, cable, airlines, etc), but until that day, we'll just have to live with it, I guess.
  78. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Sam G, Canada IS more urbanized. Canada has less cities because we have less people. The proportion of our people living in cities and towns is far more than the proportion of Americans living in cities and towns. THis is an indisputable fact. To your example, if each province has only two major cities, then they only need to provide expensive service to two major cities, the rest gets crap analog service.

    The iPhone hasn't come to Canada and won't come to Canada simply because there is no competition, and Rogers is not interested in ruining their golden goose of absurd Data rates. This is not going to change anytime soon. The reason we are so behind the world in wireless penetration is because it is so expensive here, same reason, lack of competition. The rest of the world, and every other sector in Canadian industry has embraced globalism. We for some reason want to keep telecom, banking, and airlines under the governments warm embrace, to the detriment of us all. Not to many Canadians rage about how much they hate the grocery store, but bring up Air Canada, Royal Bank, and Rogers, and they go wild. There is a very obvious reason to that, and it's NOT POPULATION DENSITY.
  79. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: Jimmy K: Verizon offers unlimited broadband and even gives you a free USB wireless modem (if you take advantage of special offers) - for about $90 USD/month. While that is not necessarily cheap, it is available and it won't burn your wallet with hundreds (thousands?) of dollars in charges like with Rogers.

    Canada runs on US capital for a long time now, so what's the big deal with wireless parochialism?
  80. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Sam G, I think we're arguing the same thing.

    All I'm saying, the crux of all my posts, is the ONLY reason we lag behind the entire world in wireless is because of our protectionist policies (not population density, not a poor market, not any of that). And what I never understood is why Canadians support these policies. They don't benefit the average Canadian. They don't even benefit the average wealthy Canadian. They benefit only the top 0.01%, so why is it typically the great defenders of "working people" like the NDP that get in a tizzy whenever we try to drop these barriers to corporations (yes, Americans, and Germans, and whomever else) coming in and doing business in Canada?

    Why do we have to make Rogers rich, when we can instead make some German or English guy rich? What do I care about if Rogers makes only 1 billion next year instead of two? Why does the left care? Why can't we liberalize our markets like everyone else? That's all I'm saying. The fact we don't have the iPhone is just symptom of a much greater malaise in the Canadian telecom sector, and Canadians' irrational desire to protect a sector they hate so much.
  81. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: Jimmy K: I understand your point, but "urbanized" for me means more than just a headcount and number of "signal bars" in cities. It extends into how govt and businesses are addressing the needs of people and consumers.

    If the market is cornered by a few feudal lords, as it is in Canada (wireless, airlines, banking), that's not even close to living in a society with an urbanized midset. That is called parochialism and for a good reason: you pay through your nose while you are "inside" of their territory. Check out "national plans" for Canada. An absolute ripoff, in comparison with any other G7 country.

    Feudal lords could actually make more money if market was open because that would draw more people to own wireless devices. Canada has the lowest number of wireless subscribers in G7. Why do you think that is?

    Maybe Canadians do not like the phones. Lets bring back the telegraph and dust off Morse code books as a backup.

    As long as parochial protectionism is the way to do biz in Canada, things wont change.
  82. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Sam G, yep, totally agree. We have the fewest number of wireless subscribers in the G7 because it economically does not make sense for the carriers to chase after people on the fence with lower prices. With no competition in this "feudal market", they may as well just milk the cream who needs to have a cellphone and let everyone else use a payphone.

    As for your national plans point, believe me, I know. ATT has a 99 unlimited everything plan, and when I say everything, I mean everything. For 99 plus tax, you get unlimted blackberry, email, text, phone, incoming, outgoing, data, longdistance (within NA)... everything. The best you can get from Rogers is 200mb for 100 bucks, and 1750 minutes for 330 bucks, for a grand total of around 430 dollars. Add on "Extras", like voice mail, and you're probably looking at 500 dollars. Is our "population density" so low that they need to charge more than five times as much for less service?

    No. It's that they do it because they can. I don't know what kind of lobbyists they have on Parliament Hill, but those guys deserve a massive, massive raise.
  83. Bart Farquart from Calgary, Canada writes:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Midtown Bob from Toronto, Canada writes: Screw the Ihaveno_ideaPhone, the berry is much more practical and better device though it doesn't have the effin' COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ads.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The latest Crackberries also have a media player and can take a Micro-SD card up to 4 gig (1000 songs?). Yeah, iPhones hold more songs but Crackberries have a lot of sharp features too. And you don't get locked into Steve Jobs' little captive marker either.