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Some things do change

Adam Radwanski, April 3, 2008 at 6:20 PM EDT

It goes against all my liberal instincts to defend a politician caught spewing some of the more disgusting homophobia you can find. This is especially the case when it comes the day after I argue that you can't let David Ahenakew off the hook for his anti-Semitism no matter how many times he apologizes. But I'm going to do it anyway.

Well, sort of. I don't know Tom Lukiwski personally. For all I know, he may remain the exact same guy who regaled his buddies with witticisms about "homosexual faggots with dirt in their fingernails that transmit diseases." But I'm prepared to accept that he might not be.

Why does the "once a bigot, always a bigot" theory I applied to Ahenakew not apply equally to Lukiwski? Because that would ignore an awful lot of anecdotal evidence I've accumulated over the last 17 years, as I suspect you have.

If we're going to be honest, we all heard these kinds of things back then - from friends or family or whoever else. It wasn't right, but it was common. And while you hopefully weren't saying them yourself, the odds are that you were willing to turn a blind eye, or at least not to judge the person who said it the way you'd judge a racist or an anti-Semite.

Today, you're less likely to hear those things. Maybe it's because your friends or family members have learned to keep their mouths shut. But just as likely, it's because gays have come much further into the mainstream than they were then, and have changed a lot of attitudes in the process.

A virulent racist in early 1950s America might not have been one by the late '60s. That's not in any way to draw parallels between what blacks went through in the pre-civil rights U.S. and what gays went through here. It's just to say that at certain times, events and shifting cultural attitudes conspire to genuinely change someone.

I have no idea if Tom Lukiwski is that sort of person. But if I wrote off the possibility, I'd be writing off a lot of good people who've seen the light.

  1. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Why are you acting as though he said this during The Stone Age? This was in the Nineties, Adam, and Lukiwski was 40 years old or more, so he doesn't get the 'young and foolish' pass card out.

    And while he's apologizing (because he was caught and I feel for his kids -- how humiliating), he should include being sorry for wearing that moustache and chain around his neck.

    I bet he's in trouble -- not only for the tape, but for stealing the limelight from Bossman Harper over in Bucharest.
  2. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Interesting perspective, Adam. And very generous of you.
    My problem with the transcript is the sexual innuendo weaving through the dialogue.
    A man in his forties should be more mature than Mr. Lukiwski proved himself to be. One would certainly question the exposure of the unidentified females, in the transcript.
    Mr. Lukiwski has known about his actions on this tape. Now we all know.
    His excuses are very late. Interesting that he is ashamed to have his wife and children hear him. If it is not appropriate for them to learn of this dimension of his character, why did he expose it to the others present.
  3. Go Oilers Go! from Canada writes: From personal experience I can attest that people can change their attitudes. A friend of mine was very homophobic when we were in our early 20's. We got into many arguments over the issue as sexual orientation. I personally believe it is something determined genetically not by choice; he did not and made many unacceptable remarks. My friend was dead set against SSM; I saw it as a non-issue. Oddly enough his mind was changed by going to Church groups. After two years of discussing issues with what he now describes as the most closed-minded people he has ever met his beliefs have essentially taken a 180 degree turn. Whether or not Mr. Lukiwski's beliefs have changed I don't know. He might be a bigot now just like he was then. However a bigot can change his ways; especially over the course of 17 years. MJ Patchouli from Regina: When it comes to gay rights and most people understanding the issues involved...the '90s were the stone age. It doesn't make it right; just reality.
  4. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Kathy Young, who is frequently identified in the transcript, is premier Wall's communications director. I think she's the one holding the cup like a microphone for him to speak into.

    If Lukiwski was one of the oldest people in that room, he should have suggested they turn the tape off for the party. Bet he wishes he did tonight!

    I wonder if the conservative apologists currently lighting up the SK blogs would at least acknowledge his stupidity.

    Isn't his parliamentary career largely based on flagrant filibustering anyway?
  5. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Go Oilers Go: Do you not hold the folks who seek to represent us to a higher degree?
    Your anecdote about a friend is of note. However, the transformation of the Progressive Conservative/Reform/Alliance/Conservative party has included many dalliances into problematic thinking.
    Mr. Lukiwski clearly voices his opinions.
    It cannot be stated that he has changed his thinking...he was caught on tape.
  6. Pierre-Yves P from Toronto, Canada writes: This Mr. Lukiwski should be put on the spot to do something meaningful against anti-gay stereotypes; like, be the bridegroom at a gay marriage or something. That would clear everyone's mind, and what a publicity stunt for the Conservatives...
  7. globefan Eh from Canada writes: This was in the nineties not the seventies. They got caught.. they would never say these things in a public place or admit to them now, but these feeling are alive and well in some of the more conservative areas of our country, just as much as racism and homophobia exist in some places in the US.

    Certainly I would have expected better of Mr.Wall and Mr.Lukiwski. It almost looks like it may becoming a pattern out there. I'm not sure either of them is sorry, upset they got caught perhaps, but that's just me. Nothing a few weeks working with AIDS patients in a hospice would let us know if they were sincere, unless of course they are afraid of catching something.
  8. Stewart Mawdsley from Fort Smith, NWT, Canada writes: Interesting debacle - as a gay guy it does make me think less of him, but at the same time a 16-17 year old tape, I know I'd probably be ashamed of some things I said that long ago. I don't think he should lose his job over it, but I'd encourage him perhaps to do some volunteer work with a gay organization (or some of the other groups he slighted) just so we can ensure he puts a face to the name the next time he thinks of saying something along those lines.

    Scary if they were making the sexist jokes to a woman doing the recording.

    And by the way, author Adam Radwanski, why on earth would you be so quick to say 'That's not in any way to draw parallels between what blacks went through in the pre-civil rights U.S. and what gays went through here.'? There are many significant parallels in those struggles. Many black leaders in the US have virulently denounced the gay rights movement and denied any similarity, which makes me sick. As one black gay man said - 'the same people who hate me for being black hate me for being gay, so for us as black men to turn on our fellow man is shameful indeed'.
  9. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Go Oilers: I respectfully disagree that we were still in the Dark Ages re: gay people in the Nineties. I guess there will always be ignorant people, but why do they have to run for public office? And why do so many of them live in SK?

    Perception is reality. So this old tape serves as a rather disconcerting reminder of how homophobic the harper government is, right down to their denial of basic civil rights to gays (like marriage).

    I mean, not understanding homosexuality is one thing, but claiming that gays are filthy people who pass on disease is quite another.

    I think it speaks volumes that he was so comfortable saying such egregious comments into a video camera, in a room full of people. Clearly he knew his comments were acceptable to that crowd. That crowd currently running our province and country. Nice.
  10. sean smith from Canada writes: To suggest they've changed their ways would mean they've changed their actions. They haven't. This bigot voted against same sex marriage

    Kathy Young (now with the Sask Party) is on the tape saying they should send a letter bomb to the President of the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour. Now that she's in power the first thing her government is doing is stripping away a generation of union and worker protections.

    Also comments are made about women and Ukrainian immigrants. Immigrants and women's rights are still easy targets for their repugnant agenda.

    Yes there is hope for the Archie Bunkers of the world but it is clear these knuckle draggers are still in the dark ages.
  11. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: sean smith raises interesting points: the ugliest things on the tape are still issues in society, and issues the conservative governments are always down on:
    women's rights -- they stripped the word equality from the federal government website
    immigrants: we currently have legislation on order wherein the federal minister can decide who comes and who cannot
    homophobia: we all know they campaigned on limiting civil rights to gays
    labour issues: our new provincial is not union-friendly (in a province that is historically a haven to trade unions)

    Yep, that one little tape says an awful lot -- it may be from years ago, but how much has the thinking changed?
  12. True North from Canada writes: Has anyone examined Tom Lukiwski's voting record to see if he has indeed changed? Did he vote for same sex marriage or against it? Has supported other diversity proposals or vote against them? Let the record speak.
  13. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Mr. Lukiwski is the parliamentary secretary for Peter Van Loan. Van Loan is known for his ferocious, personal attacks on the opposition for past statements. Always a titter in his glee to make them squirm.
    Waiting for the statement from Peter Van Loan. Peter?
  14. Matt Toma from Vancouver, Canada writes: The only difference between Ahenakew and Lukiwski is that commentators on the political right are lining up to argue that their racism is not as bad as others racism.

    Which, frankly, if not another form of racism, is hypocrisy.

    Yesterday, Premier Wall and Ottawa made it clear that if the FISN readmitted Ahenakew, they would have no dealings with them. Amazingly enough, I actually agreed with them.

    Now I expect them to follow suit on their own. Expel Lukiwski, PM Harper.

    To Premier Wall, I ask, what modern political party would allow members to remain as members after statements such as yours and Mr.Lukwiski? You may remember speaking words similar to those when cutting ties to the FISN yesterday.
  15. BJ Homes from Ontario, Canada writes: If times are so different now, why do we find this in last week's newspaper?

    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Saturday, March 29, 2008; Page A02

    LOS ANGELES -- With his school uniform, eighth-grader Lawrence 'Larry' King wore purple eye shadow, nail polish and pink lipstick. In the weeks before he died, he added purple boots with three-inch heels.

    Classmates at E.O. Green Junior High School in Oxnard, Calif., mocked his makeup and slung anti-gay slurs at him in the halls. Sometimes, the words transformed the expressive teenager into a wallflower.

    Still, rumor spread that King, openly gay, was trying to find the courage to ask another student, Brandon McInerney, to be his valentine. On Feb. 12, McInerney allegedly approached King in a computer lab and shot him in the head. King, 15, died two days later.

    Erin Mings, 12, one of King's few friends, said of him, 'He was the very, very outcast of our school.'
  16. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Sadly, the only reason Lukiwski was able to run in that riding is because Harper had to remove his Reformist MP Larry Spencer for his unbelievably horrendous remarks about gays. Although he made his homophobic remarks in a one hour TV interview that went on and on and on...
  17. Mike - from Waterloo, Canada writes:
    First two posters hit the nail on the head. It may have been 17 years ago, but he wasn't 17 at the time - he was 40.

    So I really don't buy the 'It was a long time ago' excuse on this one.

  18. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Wall's mea culpa is that he was imitating one person in particular, his friend's uncle (and I think the friend is currently his chief of staff), not all Ukrainians, or all people with eastern European accents.

    All in all, it sure looked like a boring party of ignorant hicks, eh?
  19. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: The political arena would be improved if more voices were included on the benches in the House of Commons.
    This tape makes me squirm.
  20. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Well, matthew parsons, you should contact harper and see if you can run for public office. Sounds like you'll fit in just fine.

    You do know what psychologists say is really behind homophobia, right?
  21. S C from Victoria, Canada writes: Sorry, no dice. People who would say such things into a video camera have only themselves to blame and they are ENTIRELY unsuitable for public life. Time to find a nice rock to crawl under, where he will find the bed he made. If he doesn't harbour hate for homosexuals - and I think he does - at the very least he is one enormous jackass. Pitiful.
  22. Canadian woman from Calgary from Calgary, Canada writes: MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Go Oilers: I respectfully disagree that we were still in the Dark Ages re: gay people in the Nineties. I guess there will always be ignorant people, but why do they have to run for public office? And why do so many of them live in SK?
    A better question would be why are so many of these Conservatives? The true colours of the Conservative(alliance) Party keep coming out. No surprise there.
  23. Canadian woman from Calgary from Calgary, Canada writes: matthew parsons from Canada writes: Why do they think we are scared of them, when we simply just don't like them.
    Maybe because you are insecure of your own sexuality.
  24. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    17 years ago and it's brought up now?

    Anybody else think this is lame?
  25. Canadian woman from Calgary from Calgary, Canada writes: The views of our representives are very important to all Canadians, we need to know what these people stand for. When you are a public political figure you have no right to expect that your twisted views would remain private.
  26. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: R.M. from Regina: Mr. Lukiwski should not be protected from his own statements. No excuses for his opinion on the tape.
  27. sean smith from Canada writes: RM once you film and leave them in your office for the next tenants; they're public. This wasn't 'candid camera'. These are bigots, rednecks and misogynists who are proud of their views and wanted to keep them for the memories.

    Trying to blame someone else for your own ignorance, hate and stupidity only deepens your problems.
  28. R. M. from Canada writes: Well Sean Smith let me indicate then how 'stupid' I would be if I moved in to an office that I knew who occupied it before me and I found something left behind, esp. in a legislative building. I would turn those materials over to the Chief of Security or Property Management and ask them to deal with them. But then I guess some people just can't help being voyeurs and watching other people's videos or reading other people's mail or going through other people's drawers. Is that what you do when you go out,,,look in the medicine cabinet???? Catherine Wilkie...have you ever in your life said something against somebody or an organization that you would like to share with us now?
  29. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: Well, RM from Regina, as we all know, the camera doesn't lie and if Lukiwsky at age 40 didn't have enough sense to not videotape himself AT THE LEGISLATURE SAYING HORRIBLE THINGS, then I guess he's about to pay the piper. Are you saying you don't care what your political representatives say or believe in private -- that it has no bearing on their policies for the public?

    He also is well known for having addressed Parliament in 2005 with his many reasons why homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. So how much has he changed really?

    Cameras: In Regina, we've also recently seen the case of the North Central marathon team, the kids who used to steal cars and pull B&Es sent to Jamaica to run and their adult chaperones. They videotaped themselves too: drinking with underage at-risk youth who they were supposed to be caring for, and the kids used their cell phones to videotape themselves drinking and smoking pot.
  30. so, what from USA, Canada writes: It just reflects on why many Canadians are suspicious and not trusting of the reformatives. It's a rural ignorance that festers in that party philosophy. This is they type of incident that reinforces that belief.

    If you all think that 'hey, it was 15 years ago...he can change'...NOT BLOODY LIKELY. That's called rose color glasses syndrom. I know many people who are racist, homophobic and such...they were like that 20 years ago and like that today...and I see that ALL the time from people of all ages. The only 'light switch' is when you get caught and are threatened to lose your status.

    HE MUST BE EXPELLED or it's just another issue the opposition will hammer on the tories....no wait, KEEP HIM....we need to get rid of the harper-ites and find a better government.
  31. MJ Patchouli from Regina, Canada writes: RM, everyone looks in the medicine cabinet, so lock it up (if you have something to hide).

    If I was a politician and suddenly found that I owned damaging material against opposing politicians, you'd better believe I'd drag it out. And so would you -- so would anyone. As Brad says himself in his campaign commercialsl, 'Well, I guess that's politics.'

    PLUS: it's good to know what your public representatives stand for. Makes for stronger decisions at the voter's box.
  32. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Adam admits it goes against his 'liberal instincts' to forgive.

    Very telling, Adam.
    Where do you live?

    Oh ya, the GTA, the bastion of social progression.

    The socially progressive are always the last people to forgive.
    That's what makes them so righteous.

    I submit there is an evangelicanism in social progression that is far more repugnant than a devout Christian's.

    And I am neither Christian nor socially progressive.

    I am a heathen.
    But I'm a free heathen.

    People of faith don't bother me.
    The sanctimonious make my hair stand on end.
  33. Jake Smith from Saskatoon, Canada writes: The wing nuts that buy in to the tyranny of political correctness are delirious with self-righteousness... overstating the significance of this as if they'd caught two of their political opponents in KKK suits at a cross burning.

    Yawn... if this is the best the NDP can come up with its a positive sign that they won't be back in power any time soon.
  34. Erica the Red from Canada writes: Although I do think society's attitudes towards homosexuals has changed mightily -- and for the better -- since 1991, I agree with sean smith: Tom Lukiwski has shown by his voting pattern that he doesn't favour equal rights for homosexuals.

    This tape just reinforces what we thought he thought.
    I hope those children he worries about aren't gay -- imagine hearing this from their dad!

    (And did anybody else find his apoogy alarmingly bland. He's taken a page from the Conservative playbook: just keep repeating the same bland phrase over and over, even if it doesn't answer the question. Just like Rob Moore on the Cadman affair.)

    Honestly, You'd think the Tories would have learned their lessons from the information they left behind in the Opposition Offices on Parliament Hill... that got them into trouble. Note to Tories: STOP LEAVING MESSES BEHIND WHEN YOU MOVE OUT OF OFFICES. (This also goes for Jim Flaherty and his lousy Ontario budgets!)
  35. J L from Canada writes: It will be very Interesting to see how the PM handles this incident,Very Regrettable. Intoxicated? Perhaps but then that's really no excuse for this outburst.I was and am still opposed to gay and Lesbian marriage,But this is inexcusable.Mr Lukiwiski was not of high school or college age.He should have known better.He should resign.or be kicked out of the caucus.I feel sorry for the man Iam not convinced he wasn't Intoxicated but when you enter public life your past and current indiscretions and comments are fair game.whether Intoxicated or not.As for the Premier of Saskatchewan He will have to deal with the good people of Saskatchewan.Can you image videotaping this c--p and then leaving it in a cabinet in the OPPOSITION LEADERS OFFICE!! Oh boy stupid, stupid, stupid
  36. B D from Saskatoon, Canada writes: We live in a society so over-monitored by media that I truly do believe it hampers politicians ability to do their job. I live in Saskatchewan, and I think this is a lame attempt by the Saskatchewan NDP to smear their opponents. To even bother showing a Video of Brad Wall mocking Romanow is ridiculous. With regard to Lukiwski. The media to me seems over-sensitive to comments that have no basis or formal address, but those made as a bad joke told amongst friends over beers. Do I think Lukiwski is truly sorry for the comments? Yes he apologized quicker than the blink of an eye. Do I think he meant them at the time? Doubtful. I've personally said plenty of things I didn't me whilst under the influence, and probably a bunch more that I couldn't possibly remember. In a short matter, I think that Video's of individuals should be kept as private matter. I think the NDP was wrong to just release these video's without the consent of those who are in them. But it is quite evident that they are using this for political gain to try and paint all Conservatives as bigots so they can have their Lesbian and Gay vote. It must have been a slow news day, or the globe has a nasty fetish for any attempt at character assination.
  37. Johnny Canuck from Canada writes: Even the NDP & Liberals would have to agree that the majority of Canadians do not buy into a open and gay marriage society. Yes it's the law. Yes the NDP & Liberals forced it upon us, However! Individual Canadians cannot change what they personally feel in their heart and soul. Canadians cannot change how they were brought up and what they learned to be right and wrong. So regardless of how the different sexes feel, this issue is probably best left alone and forgotten. The NDP could have burned the film when they found it. This revealation will now start another debate and Canadians will once again be forced to heel, by the State, to the Gay Marriage laws enforced upon them by irresponsible politicians.
  38. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: People who have just a short trip to make to reach middle-age and whose only sense of themselves is derived from finding targets of hate and ridicule are neither emotionally mature. As such, it's hard to consider them worthy of public office, where they are supposed to represent and advance the best human instincts of their constituents instead of reflecting the worst of them.
  39. gordon scott from lotus land, Canada writes: Watch and listen carefully to Tom Lukiwski's 'apology'.

    NEVER does he use the word gay or homosexual, which you would expect him to since that is the community that he should been offering his apologies to.

    Instead it is a reporter that asks him after the 'apology' about his attitude towards gays...only then can he bring himself to utter the G word. It goes something like, 'I have nothing against gays'

    This is hardly an apology and is very telling regarding the current real attitude held by Tom Lukiwski toward gay men.
  40. Philip Dabous from Toronto, Canada writes: I wish every person could have his or her basest words, thoughts or deeds recorded and transmitted to the world. Maybe then we all could be spared the foolish outrage that accompanies each new revelation of humans acting in bad ways. News flash. Meanwhile, let's
    tax the poor, fawn over our olympic athletes and finalize those travel plans for Beijing. Lord we Canadians are sooo precious.
  41. J L from Canada writes: John Canuck from Canada-Says the NDP could have burned the tape when they found it IN THE OPPOSITION LEADERS OFFICE! Get real John,They probably have had this tape for some time and along with their Federal counterpart have waited for the right time to spill the beans more or less.What better time than now, with the NDP Amendment about to be defeated. The tape should have been destroyed alright,but by those participating in this stupidity THAT SAME EVENING,That decision not to do so, will in all likelihood cause both these gentlemen their political careers
  42. B D from Saskatoon, Canada writes: The honest depiction of homosexuality held by many people in this country is that it doesn't make sense to them. In short, it never will. This isn't because of religious views, or a non-educated narrow-minded viewpoint. It is just that it may go against people's human instict. It does tend to go against biology in the case of our survival as well. But don't get me wrong, whatever people do on their own, in the comfort of their own home is fine. Why does it have to be recognized by the government in the form of marriage?
  43. LJ Brody from Canada writes: The whole cheesy moustache feathered hair open collar look screams closet case....it would explain his over the top comment..especially the bit about the dirty fingernails...what straight guy notices or cares about dirty fingernails?
  44. Just Laughing from Canada writes: I've only seen the tape on the news, and not read too many articles with any 'explanations' of the behaviour...but I have to say, my first impression watching it was that these people were having a few drinks at a party, and Lukiwski/Wall were pretending to give interviews. Almost like they were in character as some kind of dumb rural hicks. There were some poorly executed accents involved etc. Several things about this whole debacle amaze me: 1) That somebody kept that tape...I mean you just GOTTA know this is going to look bad; 2) That a video not presented in it's context is so readily accepted as an accurate representation of these men's deep and personal feelings; and 3) That the rural hicks of SK aren't more offended than the homosexuals, Ukrainians, or Roy Romanow. To me, THEY are the butt of this sad joke.

    But now I'm interested to read about what Wall/Lukiwski have to say for themselves and to challenge my own interpretations of the video.
  45. bse madcow from Canada writes: It seems that Lukiwski was so busy cleaning out the dirt from under his finger nails, that he forgot about proper oral hygiene.

    Oh well, it seems that his mouth is getting a good wash out now.

    Perhaps someone should suggest a good nail polish to him. I hear that some hues are better at disguising the filth. As for mouthwash, I'm afraid that he will need the industrial strength variety, and even then I have my doubts at how effective it will be.
  46. Daniel Cunningham from Victoria, writes: As an openly gay man who grew up in rural BC (read small rednecked logging town) I've been exposed to this stuff all of my life. And its not acceptable in any way shape or form - now or seventeen years ago. To me this just epitomizes every reason I loathe the Conservative Party. If anything its worse these days because they profess to be open and honest and say they aren't bigots, yet they pull every dirty trick in the book when they are out of the public light - and this person will get off with a quick rap of the knuckles and a boys will be boys pardon.
  47. Kevin Desmoulin from Toronto, Canada writes: I always thought if you want to get to know someone good, go drink with them.
    It was pretty stupid to tape such comments, looked like he meant them, at the least, bravado.
    we can only hope his views have matured since there.
  48. jimmie rabbit from toronto, Canada writes: i'm sure mr. lukiwski is very sorry - that he got caught!

    i remember when mr. spencer was fired. i remember feeling sorry for him - he got fired for saying what the rest of his party only thought.

    the fact is that the conservative party is homophobic - that is the true meaning of the phrase 'family values' - and mr. lukiwski's beliefs are only typical of what these 'conservatives' think (not all conservatives, by the way - joe clark or robert stanfield for example would have had nothing to do with these people.
  49. Dan Brydges from Nanaimo, Canada writes: Lukiwski isn't sorry for his comments, he is only sorry that his bigoted view of homosexuals became public. If he were sorry he would have spent his last few years using his position to lobby for greater inclusion of gays in society. Instead his voting record only shows that his attitude towards homosexuals has not changed greatly at all. Yes people can change, but a Lukiwski does not get the label of changed by choosing not to use certain words.

    The times were different argument doesn't hold much water either. Just because societal norms were not what they are now, remember that racial segregation used to be 'normal' too, does not excuse hate speech. And yes it is hate speech. He would be lambasted if it were an ethnic minority he were disparaging but apparently homophobia is fashionable in conservative circles.
  50. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: For most people alcohol is like a truth serum. It may explain a behaviour but it doesn't excuse it. It simply means that the person harbours beliefs (or orientations) that he or she has not confronted. They are mostly hidden from polite society, even from the person him- or herself, but alcohol opens the gates and advertises to all that the person is other than what he or she seems when sober.
  51. The Skipper from Canada writes: Radwanski - you can't defend this idiot as there is no difference between Tom Lukiwski and David Ahenakaw !
  52. Vern McPherson from writes:
    From another newspaper:

    ' 'We believe that Mr. Lukiwski has made an unequivocal apology for those comments and indicated clearly that he does not hold those views,' Van Loan says. 'We welcome that quick and unequivocal apology and consider the matter is now closed.'

    Well it's not closed. .....................

    Is this lupinske fella the same gutless wonder one who howled over the veiled Muslim women voters in committee right after the PQ by-elections ? And that performance was on TV.

    Seems not much has changed does it ??????

    Van loonit is wrong. This is not over ....................
  53. mywifeisaRN smith from dodoland, Canada writes: This subject was the lead item on CBC 'The National '. The second story was the trial of British men plotting to blow up two Air Canada flights from London to Canada using bombs hidden in plastic bottles. Who at CBC decides what is the lead story ?
    When I find something that doesn't belong to me I try to return it to the owner ASAP. Perhaps Ms Robinson can tell us how long they kept the material and what efforts they made to return it.
  54. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Vern:-- If he were to apologize, indicating that he had once held these views but had since confronted them, we might cut him some slack. But, saying that he does not hold them when he is on the record as having once held them is a half-explanation at best.

    There are, no doubt, fine human beings in the CPC - Jim Prentice being one - but, unfortunately, the party seems to attract more than its representative share of people who are socially retrograde. It attracts them as candidates and it attracts them as supporters. It doesn't attract me because, as a party, it's more concerned with appearance than with character.
  55. Ken Ontario from Canada writes: The comments are in excusable, but I can tell you one thing for sure, there is not a person on this forum that can honestly look in the mirror and say they have not said something they wish the could retract as well, we grow up and mature as we progress in life. He has apologized but I do feel that he should be removed from his PS role and suspended from caucus for six months for the encouragement of others.
  56. Lyn Alg from Canada writes: Why is everyone so surprised at the comments made by this Lukiehshitty or whatever? This is the type of individual Harper attracts. In fact, Harper has officially stated that he supports this homophobic JACKASS. Speaks volumes about Stephanie Harpinski, doesn't it? He and his party have always supported racists, xenophobes, misogynists, anti-abortionists, radical religious Jesus freaks, and misanthropes. Harper is surrounded by these misfits in his Conservative party. And he wants a mandate from Canadians to run Canada with a majority government? What a joke !
  57. Old Edmonton Man from Edmonton, Canada writes: Adam, if you can guarantee this is his only outburst, then I can take your position. If you can't, then I can say to you once a bigot, always a bigot.
  58. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    Lyn Alg from Canada writes:

    'Why is everyone so surprised at the comments made by this Lukiehshitty or whatever? This is the type of individual Harper attracts. In fact, Harper has officially stated that he supports this homophobic JACKASS. Speaks volumes about Stephanie Harpinski, doesn't it? He and his party have always supported racists, xenophobes, misogynists, anti-abortionists, radical religious Jesus freaks, and misanthropes.'

    Hey diane!!

    Here's a typical Harper-hater.

    Care to define and/or defend the nature of it's comment??

    Typical LPC hypocrite.

    The LPC are the most hateful, bigoted, and mean-spirited people out there.

    The reason they pounce on anything controversial from the CPC is so they can validate their own hatred and make posts like the one above.

    Disgusting and beyond shame.
  59. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    Btw--

    No comments at the main article.

    However, we can comment at this 'backdoor' thread.

    Feels a bit like slipping into a men's steam bath to 'loosen up' a bit.....
  60. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: spicydoc:-- What am I, official apologist for my 'side'? Spicy, get out your thesaurus and find some synonyms for 'disgusting' and 'shame'. They make you sound like an old fussbudget. While you're at it, you might want to reconsider 'Harper-hater', particularly in a thread about hate.
  61. Bart Farquart from Vanillaland, Canada writes:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    17 years ago and it's brought up now?

    Anybody else think this is lame?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yup. But it won't stop all the politically self interested faux outrage.

    It's been 17 years but I too likely made some offensive comments about something or somebody in 1991.

    I will therefore recuse myself from casting the first stone.
  62. robert quinn from Japan writes: Racist, sexist, fetishist, arsonist...homophobic. What's wrong with homist? (Granted, it could be confused with that chick-pea slurry some are fond of.) What about homoanimus? That would be a far more accurate,though less self-serving, description of this reprehensible social crime. Come to think of it, are not gays themselves guilty of being flagrant 'vaginaphobes'? (Or should that be fragrant vaginaphobes? And aren't we all, in that case.) This needs further study.
  63. Vern McPherson from writes: spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:
    Btw--
    No comments at the main article.
    However, we can comment at this 'backdoor' thread.
    Feels a bit like slipping into a men's steam bath to 'loosen up' a bit.....

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    the fraud speaks. the idea of a men's steambath excites this fraud...............

    that's a bite spyer.

    take the intiative ............... fraud ..........

    every punk in existance can get hold of a laptop...............
  64. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    Vern and diane--

    Yeah yeah, we know---hate is okay as long as you get to pick whom to hate.

    BTW--why didn't this ancient (beta?) tape show up during the Sask election??

    I would think it would be more interesting then. The 'delay' is remarkable.

    Kinda like the LPC waiting a year for Paul Martin to write a forward to a book about Cadman before accusing our PM of a crime.....

    The timing is more peculiar than the fact....
  65. Vid Ingelevics from Toronto, Canada writes: Bert: The issue is not that you or I may have said stupid things when we were younger but that your or I are not currently part of the goverment of Canada. I don't know about you, Bert, but I knew 17 years ago that the kind of comments Lukiwski made were nasty and hateful. He was 40 years old back then and, supposedly, a mature man. By his voting record it is clear that not a lot has changed in those 17 years for Mr. Lukiwski.
  66. Edmund S from Canada writes: If we tossed out every racist, homophobic, sexist, xenophobe from parliament there'd maybe be nobody left in the place. The makeup of Parliament is hardly a poster for diversity so it shouldn't be surprising the views people have (or had, hopefully) are representative of where the people come from and who they are. Mr Lukiwski is a white Prairie man in his mid-50s. I don't mean to offend anyone in saying this but, how many 56 year old, white men who grew up in culturally homogenous places like Saskatchewan have progressive views of homosexuals (or minorities, or other social phenomena)? For 40 year old white, Prairie males in 1991 are his views extraordinary? I don't think so. In some ways, I think it is kind of scummy by the NDPers who released the tape - and I am no conservative. I think we've all lost our sense of decency in the YouTube age. How is this relevant to anything going on today? Another notch upward in the scuzz factor of politics. I honestly don't know how they don't vomit every time they have to open their mouths with all the BS they have to spit out and swallow up. The phoney sanctimony by those who found the tape is Oscar-winning. THey really must have struggled over what to do with the tape. Please. As for the Ukrainian-bashing aspect of this story, isn't Lukiwski a Ukrainian-Canadian? I'd find it hard to believe they're bashing 'Eastern Europeans' there. Taking a stab at Romanow in a childish way for sure. Bashing Ukrainians? Hmmm.
  67. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: spicy doc, presumably the tape didn't show up during the election campaign because Wall didn't want to release it himself. The tape was found when the NDP moved into the opposition offices. They had a decent suggestion on CTV today--get him to explain how his views have changed. In that way, we assess the sincerity of the apology. He'll be in enough hot water tonight when he goes home because the other thing that came out on the tape is how he is a male on the prowl for more sexual conquests. I'm sure he'll pay a price once he gets home.
  68. Vid Ingelevics from Toronto, Canada writes: Edmund: that is a dangerous argument you're making. Could be used to excuse those involved in many other situations where a minority was discriminated against - e.g., Jew-baiting in Nazi Germany or the lynching of black men in the American south just to offer some more extreme examples. We're tallking about 1991 when these kinds of issues were already seen as deeply offensive by many. Sorry, hate is hate is hate and excusing it by saying everyone else hated, too, justifies cowardly behaviour.
  69. D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: And another thing, Mr. Radwanski (and I apologize, I forgot to mention your blog in the Globe survey I completed today; it was an oversight), and another thing- Mr. Ahenakew represents a people that has known its share of oppression. Mr. Lukiwiski, despite his Polish(???) origins and his possible approval of humour directed towards other people of East European descent, is a member of the party of oppressors. Mr. Ahenakew's confusion is much more understandable than the confusion of the MP from Regina-Lumsden-Lake Centre.
  70. dar cullihall from Rocky Harbour, Canada writes: Adam Radwanski isn't fooling anybody. He's using a double standard when talking about the anti-Jew comments of David Ahenckew and the anti-gay comments of Tom Lukiwski. The big difference, Mr. Radwanski, is that Mr. Lukiwski is a Conservative and you belong to the editorial board of their biggest supporter. Now, mark my words, you'll ask Mike Duffy of the Conservative Television Network (CTV) to find a poll that shows oh, about 56 percent of Canadians surveyed believe Mr. Lukiwiski should be forgiven while 0h, about 63 percent believe Mr. Ahenckew should not. Mark my words. The double standard of the Globe and Mail and the Conservative Television Network has been at play for years. Nothing changes regardless of how much these two media institutions pretend to be a balanced network. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.
  71. Vern McPherson from writes: spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:
    Vern and diane-- Yeah yeah, we know---hate is okay as long as you get to pick whom to hate.
    BTW--why didn't this ancient (beta?) tape show up during the Sask election??

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The tape was discovered when someone took over an office , .......whatever ..................

    The thought that this country of ours is being taken over by frauds like you spyer is scary enough to motivate me to post here .................
  72. Vid Ingelevics from Toronto, Canada writes: I rest my case.
  73. Canadian Woman from Canada writes: Hellloooo!! Did anyone even NOTICE that these drunken adolescent 'boys' also called the future Lieutenant-Governor of Saskatchewan 'a slut'!! And made sexist comments to Mrs. Wall at the very least. They are not only homophobic, racist, drunk, immature disgusting fools, they are also grossly sexist! And here are a bunch of you straight guys going, 'well, heh, heh, heh,,,,,, boys will be boys. I mean, heh heh,.. they were drinking, so they had no control..heh, heh.' (That defense went out when Date Rape became against the law!) I don't care if it was yesterday or 20 years ago. These people were adults at the time (chronologically speaking at least). Their character, such as it is, had been basically formed. They were trying to be elected to run people's governments. THIS is the best we can do in this province?! Sad, Sad. and Sick. I agree with 'Patchouli girl' & 'Calgary Woman' - why do so many of these neaderthals have to be from Sask. And why are so many Conservatives like this! You know how Americans lie & say they're really from Canada, if they're asked? I'm going to start lying and saying I'm from Samoa or something, instead of Saskatchewan. It's embarrassing. As for the 'apology'? He's sorry he got caught. Most of the PC's that I know basically fear & detest women, gays, lesbians, immigrants, & people of colour.
  74. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes:
    Normally one does not associate values like redemption and forgiveness with Mr. Harper's brand of conservatism.
    It seems that Mr. Lukiwski is an exception to that policy in that he has has been shriven by The Leader in a most perfunctory manner.
    Surely, absolution should not be so easily granted.
  75. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Well, Edmund has a point. Let us say that a person holds certain views because he or she hasn't been provided with an opportunity to confront them. Moving to Ottawa and being part of government should provide such an opportunity and, I would think, a wonderful one. I admit to coveting it myself. I could well imagine that a salt-of-the-earth rural person might bring many good things to the city, while accepting and adopting other good things while there. The win-win of travel, even on a limited basis. The official apology provided an ideal opportunity to discuss that, rather than to just speak of regret and embarrassment (it's all about me and my family). That opportunity presented itself and has not, as yet, been used to good effect. I suppose that one would not want to challenge/slight one's hidebound constituents ;-). Whatever slack might have been given in many quarters has now been shortened.
  76. Bart Farquart from Vanillaland, Canada writes: Vid,

    If everyone who made 17 year old offensive remarks (not just those who were videotaped and got busted) were thrown out of government the HoC would be largely empty.

    And, do you think your comparison of Wall and Luchiwski's bad behavior to Nazi Jew baiting and racial lynchings is a bit hyperbolic?

    Yeah, I lean to the Cons. But if a 17 year old tape featuring a Lib or Dipper surfaced saying something offensive or stupid I probably wouldn't completely get apoplectic about it, such as . . uh . . a few posts up.
  77. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    Bobby Dy--

    '...presumably the tape didn't show up during the election campaign because Wall didn't want to release it himself.'

    What??

    So he knew about it and left left it lying around for the NDP people to find and play??

    Jeez Bobby, you wanna re-think that?

    Even Vern S. Burroughs doesn't hallucinate that weirdly.

    ps--diane marie--nice post you made just now--11:34 or so..
  78. '... Rae ... says consent for anal sex should be lowered from 18 [to 16] at the same time ...' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Toronto Centre - '... Canada's largest gay riding ... includes the city's queer village ...'

    '... Rae ... says consent for anal sex should be lowered from 18 [to 16] at the same time...'

    Rae: 'Liberal government would make queer human rights an essential part of its FOREIGN POLICY'

    -----
    http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx? AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=4308&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=2

    Bob Rae returns to the fray - Liberal byelection candidate confronts the past
    Krishna Rau / Xtra / Feb 26, 08

    FRIEND OF THE COMMUNITY? Former NDP premier Bob Rae revisits the controversial failure of Bill 167 and reveals all.

    ... in the '90s Rae instituted the Trillium Drug Program and the Ontario AIDS Bureau, ... But in 1994 he allowed the defeat of Bill 167 — which would have granted spousal rights to same-sex couples — by having a free vote on the measure. Twelve members of his own government voted against it, ensuring its defeat.
    ...
    'I think it's fair to say our government was probably the most progressive government on issues affecting the gay and lesbian community of any government in the country,' .... expand coverage for all gay and lesbian couples in the public service.
    ...
    Rae says, now, he would vote in favour of NDP MP Bill Siksay's private member's bill to add trans people to Canada's hate crimes legislation. He also says he would support restoring funding to the Court Challenges Program. ... ... Rae leans toward raising the age of consent to 16 from 14 but says consent for anal sex should be lowered from 18 at the same time. ... 'I think whatever the age of consent is it should be the same for straights and gays and everybody,' ... Rae also opposes Health Canada's decision to ban gay men from donating organs ... Rae says a Liberal government would make queer human rights an essential part of its foreign policy. ...
  79. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: My in-laws farm not too far from Lumsden and there is nary a book nor newspaper to be found on that farm. The Western Producer, yes, and perhaps some dog-earned Harlequin Romances. The nearby town is a picture of homogeneity. Until recently, there was nothing but dial-up, and a few mainstream channels on the tube. I think that Captain Canada had a point when he was pushing for broadband for the land...
  80. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes:
    '...Rae...'
    What's your point?
  81. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    diane marie--

    Digital age access doesn't necessarily make for more informed citizens.

    I remember last year when satellite TV access for the Arctic became almost universal and free.

    The biggest complaint??--the porno channels were being blocked out.
  82. Brent Raby from The City State of Toronto, writes: spicydoc:
    Which causes more harm? Benny Hinn or porno?
  83. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: spicydoc:-- Perhaps not, but that's not the point. It's about choice and access. I choose to converse with fora-mates rather than watch Survivor (or equivalent) ;-).
  84. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: spicy doc, that was sarcasm. Obviously he didn't know/remember but you asked why it wasn't released during the election campaign. It obviously wasn't released during the election campaign because it would have had to have been Wall (or another Sask. Party member) that would have had to release it.

    Rae, why should anyone care about your rants? Homosexuality is the business of homosexuals--not yours, not mine.
  85. Daniel Cunningham from Victoria, writes: ... Rae ... - so what's your point? You have a problem with the unequal age of consent? Or are you just fascinated with anal sex? Or maybe you are Harper in disguise and finally coming out of the closet - although if you are Harper - please stay in the closet.
  86. The Last Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes: Go Oilers Go! wrote:
    From personal experience I can attest that people can change their attitudes. A friend of mine was very homophobic when we were in our early 20's.

    Oiler,
    What does that have to do with a 40 year old homophobe ?

    Do Conservatives mature 20 years later ?
  87. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Rae, while going to xtra to see if there was another right wing web site out there that I needed to be aware of, I was surprised to learn that it was 'Canada's leading queer source of fresh news, views, ideas, and culture--and your opinion'. My question is that if you have such a hate on for homosexuals, why are you seeking out web sites aimed at a homosexual audience?
  88. The Last Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes:
    D. B. from Greater Sask,

    Brad Wall was the 26 year old 'child' making fun of Ukranian farmers.

    Lukiwiski was the 40 year old 'youth' (with a neck chain) trying to impress young female campaign workers with his homophobia
  89. 'Reasonable and Justifiable Discrimination ...' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:37 AM

    From: Zzzz, Zzz - M.P. [fyi - highly urban, NOT suburbania!, extremely affluent Ontario riding in GTA of mostly 'true' Anglo Canadians]

    To: Grass Root Ontarian 1 [fyi: T.O., EU white, all life of highest urban background, superior education, IQ]


    Subject: RE: Reasonable and Justifiable Discrimination on Blood and Organ Donations

    Dear Dr. Yyyy and [Grassroot Ontarian 1]

    Thank you very much for your letter.

    Because of the serious nature of this, I am today forwarding your letter along to the ...

    Sincerely,

    Zzz Zzzz, M.P.

    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:18 AM
    From:
    Dr. Yyy Yyyy
    Psychologist, Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Ph.D., C. Psych., ABPP
    Toronto

    To:
    [Grassroot Ontarian 1],
    Zzzz, Zzz - M.P.;
    . . .

    Subject: Re:Reasonable and Justifiable Discrimination on Blood and Organ Donations

    Please see letter attached.

    ---- attached letter:
    February 26, 2008

    The Honourable Robert Douglas Nicholson Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
    The Honourable Tony Clement Minister of Health

    Dear Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Clement:

    Re: Safety of Canadian Blood and Organ Supply

    I am prompted to write this letter to you as a result of a number of recent articles published in the Canadian press, on Internet sites and public statements issuing from Queens Park regarding the above-noted concern.

    ... con't ..

  90. D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: This business about people changing political stripes as they grow older may be bunk. If you don't stick to your principles, you may not have had too many to begin with. I think we have far too many conservatives-in-training as it is. Put some fire in your belly, you conservatives. No fire in the belly, you say? We are all losers as a result.
  91. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    Bobby--

    Okay, your comment was sarcastic.

    You will forgive me for not picking up on it.

    Your posts are amongst the most 'humorless' on these threads, and you caught me off guard.

    diane marie--

    I think it's a good idea to have free porno broadcast among the Arctic. Anything to warm up those cold nights... ;)

    some other guy--What's Benny Hinn?? By implication, it sounds like a religious show. I honestly don't know about or watch that stuff. On the other hand, a well-made, Telefilm-Tax-credited porno film is always on my dial... ;)
  92. The Last Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes:
    Go Oilers Go! wrote:
    From personal experience I can attest that people can change their attitudes. A friend of mine was very homophobic when we were in our early 20's.

    Oiler,
    What does that have to do with a 40 year old homophobe who wears a