Skip navigation

 Login or Register | Member Centre

Get down girls

WENCY LEUNG

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 10:50 AM EDT 11/04/08

At a Dance Dance Party Party event the rules are simple: no booze, no boys – and no judging. Ladies, you're free to let loose ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. Bert Russell Paradox, BC from Canada writes:

    Is one allowed to think?
  2. Martin Fedgrass from Canada writes: No worries here.

    99% of hetero men would rather stick pins in their eyes than have to dance anyways!
  3. Ryan Ginger from Ottawa, Canada writes: 'The club scene's too aggressive, too sexual.'

    Maybe the radical feminist Andrea Dworkin was right--'all hetero sex is rape.' Alternatively, maybe women have become so paralyzed by gender issues that they regard innocuous conversations between the sexes (dancing! the horror) as an aggressive assault.
  4. The Wurm from Ontarianiwhere, Canada writes: Dance like no one is watching.

    Isn't that what raves intended?
  5. Roger Gagne from Calgary, Canada writes: Here in Calgary, we go one better. We have at least 4 different authentic movement dance groups where everyone dances like no one is watching because, guess what? Everyone else in the room is doing their own thing, anyway, and not paying much attention to your moves. That being said, each of our Calgary groups have a facilitator who occasionally gives suggestions to interact with others or oneself in new and cool ways. One of the 'classes' is called LifeDance; a very appropriate name for a rich and lifegiving weekly experience.

    Oh, and to Martin Fedgrass... I'm straight, as are most of the other men who attend, and sometimes we outnumber the women in the room.
  6. Placido Durango from Here to Eternity, Canada writes: What is this?

    No men allowed!?

    I guess I'll just waltz on over the my local Human Rights Commission.
  7. Paul Thompson from Canada writes: They'd likely ignore you Placido, but I guess you knew that already.
  8. Glenn F from Winnipeg, Canada writes: No men allowed? Not really sure they were busting the doors down to get in...
  9. katie schultz from Canada writes: Clearly none of you have been to dance a club recently. Personally, I don't like to be attacked by a man's genitalia while dancing, and it's not that I'm afraid of gender issues, or feel that I'm being raped, it's just, I don't like it when complete stranges feel the need to get their 'junk' all up in my business.

    But luckily for me, there is a club in Ottawa that won't allow grinding on the dance floor.
  10. Steve Toronto from Canada writes: If I was a woman, I'd be extremely embarassed reading an article such as this........................and you all want to be taken more seriously in the business world!!!
  11. Mr Rodrigo from Vancouver, Canada writes: As a man in his mid-20s, I am glad to see this. While it's easy to demonize as at the dance clubs, it's not that easy to be us. I was never very comfortable behaving the way the people there (both men AND women) expect me to behave. But even if I was, it's a catch-22, because if you end up grinding with a woman who you think wants it, but doesn't, they can get quite upset.

    If all the women who don't want to be grinded with, or 'picked up', go to 'Dance Dance Party Party' instead, this makes things easier as the men don't have to guess anymore as to which women are at the club to dance for their own fun, and which one are there to interact with the men.
  12. Placido Durango from Here to Eternity, Canada writes: Katie, doesn't the slang go the other way around -- get their 'business up in your junk'? Just asking.
  13. Knowledge is True Opinion from Canada writes: To each his/her own.

    I don't see what the issue is here. There is nothing embarrasing about this and as Katie says clubs are out of control. They overserve untill people literally keel over. A lot men (not all) grab and grind to the extreme. Sure some girls are into it, but does that mean when someone walks by on the dance floor they deserve to get 'goosed' I've seen it happen many times. It's become a meat market.

    If these woman want to go somewhere and let loose so be it. Good for you.

    However, since it's Master weekend I have to add, if men want to get together and play golf without women then so be it.
  14. Life Insurance Bribe from Canada writes: Yes, to each their own.

    However I'm sure the 'females-only' aspect will eventually result in some sort of human rights complaint. (Are there any 'males only' fitness classes out there?)

    On the other hand, the scantily-clad exhibitionist young ladies who dance very suggestively at some bars (no, not strip bars... just regular dance clubs) are no doubt contributing to the sexualization of many dance bars. Combined with the booze, who can blame some young men for believing that many women are there to meet a man?

    But, if we start to tell women what to wear is it a slippery slope towards requiring burkas?
  15. Knowledge is True Opinion from Canada writes: But, if we start assuming that because women dress in a certain way means they want hands all over them is slippery slope as well.

    Yes, I can blame young men. They have no right to touch. It's like saying someone deserved to be raped because they were dressed in a certain way.



  16. Knowledge is True Opinion from Canada writes: Also, There are many 'Man' only clubs and activities.

    As per my Master's reference Agusta only allows Male members. Females have played the course but only by inviation.
  17. Lothario Escobar from The Town That Fun Forgot, Canada writes: Life Insurance Bribe:

    Wearing a burqa is an excellent way to infiltrate gender-discriminatory events like this.
  18. J S from Canada writes: I think this sounds awesome! I love to dance, it's fun and makes you feel good. But you don't always feel like going to a club. I don't see why the femail only thing is an issue, what about women only gyms like Curves? It's really the same idea.
  19. John E. Boy from Canada writes: Can I watch!!!???
  20. Life Insurance Bribe from Canada writes: Actually, there have been studies proving that women who dress provocatively at dance clubs are more sexually receptive, & this coincides with certain times in their 'cycle'. Logical. (On the other hand, men don't have a 'cycle' & are basically always ready to be sexually receptive.)

    I was certainly not alluding to 'It's like saying someone deserved to be raped because they were dressed in a certain way.'

    The fact is that people (male or female) who dress in a certain way are seeking to get some sort of reaction or attention... not necessarily to be 'grinded' on in the dance club, & certainly not to be raped, but there is a logic to the type of clothes/behaviour one exhibits.

    Anyway, I think it's fine that women may want to go dance with themselves in private.
  21. David Guy from Canada writes: Speaking of slippery slopes, it's a dangerous trend where women now have female-only dance clubs and fitness clubs because they feel uncomfortable around men. What's next? A women-only section in a restaurant? Shopping mall? bank? Haven't women fought for decades to be seen as equal to men and included in everything?
  22. Wandering Willy from Victoria, Canada writes: Its nice to see the girls getting their groove on and settling any differences with a good old 'Dance Off'
  23. Richard Hawk from Canada writes: I don't really understand the 'no booze' rule. I could maybe see the no boys and no instructors/judges, but what does booze have to do with what they're trying to do?
  24. Mike Z from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Good for them if that's what gets them active and happy. I do have to echo the feeling though that it seems awfully hypocritical to complain about men's only clubs but not about women's only clubs.

    Are there any feminists out there who support men having clubs exclusively to themselves? If not, do you also argue against clubs that cater exclusively to women? I'm just looking for a little consistency here.
  25. D F from Canada writes: Clubs are expensive, mainly cater to a loud young crowd. I think this is an awesome idea. A few of they guys on this board sound threatened by this. Just a girls night out. You can get up and dance and not feel self conscious, or like someone of the opposite sex might misconstrue your actions, or be judgmental of you. Most husbands who don't like to dance probably aren't too keen on their wives heading out to the clubs regularly with just the girls, but don't really want to go just to dance either. I think this is a perfect option. It's better than dancing by yourself at home in front of the stereo!
  26. Robert P from Canada writes: I am surprised nobody has brought this up yet, but, isn’t this why girls like to go to gay bars? Get to have a good time without feeling like a piece of meat. Added bonus, they get to dance with good looking guys that compliment them on their shoes and hair. All the fun, with out all the bother.
  27. carol c from Canada writes: 'Are there any feminists out there who support men having clubs exclusively to themselves? If not, do you also argue against clubs that cater exclusively to women? I'm just looking for a little consistency here.' I understand this argument I really do. The reason that women want no men at this event is to keep it a safe space. Most men are not violent. Most men are not rapists, but that is part of women's experience. Ask any woman you know if they've ever been sexually assaulted or raped. Most have. This is part of the experience of being a woman in this society. I adore men. Men are my friends and family. They are usually wonderful creatures, but the small portion of them who are not really do screw it up for the rest of us, male and female. So women sometimes feel the need for a space that is safe from this constant, silent threat from a small percentage of men who are jerks and criminals. What is the reason for male only space? Sometimes the reason is the same. Male retreats, clubs where the focus is on masculinity, etc. I don't really have a problem with them. A male only version of this type fo thing would be a great idea. Male only events like the Masters, I'm not so sure about. It seems the reason for keeping them male only has more to do with the sexist idea that women aren't good enough to participate. In terms of evolution it's not that long ago that women couldn't vote, didn't have equal rights, etc. The only reason for that kind of thing is sexism, and events like the Masters carry on that tradition it seems to me. In other words it's comparing apples to oranges and expecting consistancy.
  28. David Guy from Canada writes: Carol C. - I have to strongly disagree with you that rape and sexual assault is 'part of the experience of being a woman in this society' and it's a 'constant, silent threat'. Oh, please. If you want to compare apples to apples that's not even part of this picture. Co-ed gyms are not filled with rape and sex assault cases at all. And you're the only one who has suggested the Masters has to do with women not being good enough to participate. I would take real exception to that suggestion.
  29. s c from Toronto, Canada writes: In the words of Emma Goldman: 'I don't want to be a part of the revolution if I can't dance!'

    Does anyone know where this takes place in Toronto?
  30. Freddy Sanon from Ottawa, Canada writes: David Guy, ever consider that your perspective as a male might be obscuring some of the incidents carol c is talking about?
  31. François Papineau from Montreal, Canada writes: It's 2bizarre' that the men can't do the same. last year, here in Montreal, a barman in male gay club, refuse to serve a woman pretexting that the bar allowed only men. They are now in human right court. So why the hell women can do that but not men?
  32. Henry Wysmulek from Winnipeg, writes: Isn't this called a gay bar, were only one gender is allowed?
  33. Mia Zen from Canada writes: Even in co-eds gym some men look at women in a voyeur way (yes, I know, we all are voyeurs at some point), while on dance floors, because of the male presence some women look down at other women, dressed differently, dancing differently.
    The other positive aspect about this initiative is the music choosen by different people and for sure it must be different (I hope it is !) than in trendy bars. Because the actual disco with this boomboomboom basic pseudo afro earthy rythm has been going on for too long. Even some yoga CDs are using it !
    Let just hope there is no age discrimination based on wrinkles ::)), since some baby boomers kept in shape, but having botox injections all over the body is kind of expensive.

  34. m mac from Canada writes: and once again, the majority of posters, the author of the article looking to present 'both sides of the issue', and the random people interviewed:

    Just Don't Get It.

    what is so hard to understand about this concept??

    Dancing is fun. So is choosing your own music. So is letting loose and being silly without caring about your appearance, losing face or being forced to interact with someone else.

    Dancing is a workout, yes, but this is not about getting a workout, it's just about having fun. Its not necessarily about escaping evil horny men at clubs, either, though that's clearly a bonus. It just so happens that the people interested are all women, and prefer it that way.

    Go watch some children play. Maybe you'll figure it out.
  35. carol c from Canada writes: David, I suggest you ask the women you know about their experiences, and see if you still hold the same views afterwards. The first time I was assaulted was on a bus by some freaky old guy rubbing his genitals against me as the bus made it's way down the road. I was 15 at the time, and too afraid to believe what was happening or to do anything about it. The second time I was living in Kuwait and was chased in a car by two men down a highway going over 200 k/hr. The first incident threated my feeling of security in public. The second incident threatened my life. Some statistics on sexual assault in Canada. http://metrac.org/new/stat_sex.htm 51% of all Canadian women have experienced at least one incident of sexual or physical violence. Close to 60% of these women have survived more than one incident of violence. (Statistics Canada, 1993, 'Violence Against Women Survey', The Daily, 18 November, p. 1, 3) 6 out of 10 victims who reported being sexually assaulted were under 17. (Statistics Canada, 2005, 'Children and Youth as Victims of Crime', The Daily, 20 April) In 2000, women made up the vast majority of victims of sexual assault (86%) and other types of sexual offences (78%). (Statistics Canada, 2001, Family Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile, 2001) 80% of sexual assaults occur at home; 49% in broad daylight. (Sexual Assault Care Centre, Women's Care Centre, Sunnybrook & Womens, 1999, Myths and Facts About Sexual Assault,
  36. Golden Crumb from Canada writes: uh... try just not going to the meatmarket clubs?

    and in defense of carol c. many women to live in a constant state of awareness that they have the potential to be victimized at ANY moment. as a woman, i am well aware of the fact that some men would prefer to objectify me and oversexualize me rather than perceive me as an intellectual equal. i am also reminded regularly by the men around me (not at their fault) of my relative physical weakness.

    and in terms of the 'sexually charged' environment of many dance clubs, i don't blame that on the presence of men alone. i've been to those clubs, and i have seen equal numbers of women being equally sexually aggressive as men. those types of places are a brewing pot for dysfunctional interactions, drama, and STIs. but some people thrive on that, i guess.
  37. Golden Crumb from Canada writes: just to play devil's advocate...

    are gay women allowed into these dance offs?

    i mean, since the whole concept is about alleviating sexual tension?
  38. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: Dancing sober?
  39. Lindsay Martin from Vancouver, Canada writes: I think this sounds like a really fun idea. I really enjoy dancing and go out (not all that often) with some girlfriends, all of us are either married or in serious relationships and are obviously not looking for any action. We don't get all that dressed up, for the most part just jeans and a t-shirt... and for the most part we have a great time, dance together or by our selves and generally ignore the males in the club. But there are always a couple guys that can't seem to understand that we're not there for them. I have, after turning down one guy multiple times, had him come up behind me and pick me up (by the rear) and walk off with me, and this was not at a 'meat market' club.
  40. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: David Guy, Carol C is right. I'm no feminist, but I've read quite a bit of evolutionary psychology. And one definite fact is that, until complex societies with laws and social sanctions against violence developed, violent acts like murder and rape were evolutionarily advantageous strategies for men. Therefore, the entire human race has evolved from sexually aggressive males. Go back far enough in our lineage; each and every one of us descended from rapists and murderers. Much of that aggression, sexual and otherwise, is still within us, just below the surface. Fortunately, most of us are civilized and socialized from an early age to believe that rape and violence are wrong. However, that doesn't work for everyone. Despite harsh legal and social sanctions, many men still rape (and even murder) at will. Women have every reason to live in fear of sexual assault. If anything, most women UNDERESTIMATE the likelihood that they will be targeted with violence. Don't take my word for any of this. Read the book THE MURDERER NEXT DOOR by Dr. David Buss. His book focuses on murder rather than sexual assault, but his theories cover all forms of human violence. Essentially, evolutionary psychologists like Buss believe that humans still rape and murder because, up until society developed, rape and murder were effective reproductive strategies. This in no way justifies violent acts (though evo-psychs are often accused of that). It simply offers an explanation as to why violent acts like murder and rape are still so prevalent. To date, it is the only theory of human violence that can stand up to scrutiny.
  41. Erica Ross from Toronto, Canada writes: I was thrilled to read this article, and to know that more and more people are experiencing the joy and freedom of dancing in safe spaces, whether co-ed or not. I facilitate such a space for women here in Toronto. I offer ecstatic dance sessions for women, and a practice called 'Dance Our Way Home'. The former is non-structured and totally free style, with DJ'ed music from all over the world. The latter is still freestyle dance, however it has more structure and includes relaxation and imagery which takes women on a transformative and healing journey. Spaces like these, where one can let go of judgment and just simply move and groove in ways that feel good, also creates community and a sense of belonging- a vital component to wellbeing. By the way, I also do 'Dance Our Way Home' at a wonderful support organization for people with eating disorders and body image issues, called 'Sheena's Place'. This style of dance has been a source of healing for many. If you are interested in knowing more please check out my website www.expressivehealing.com. Many blessings, Erica
  42. Sue City from Canada writes: 'the electrifying chorus of Journey's Don't Stop Believin''.... haha

    Come on ladies, we can do better than this! Sounds more like a lesbian love-in. If someone's harrassing you on the dance floor, just kick him in the pants and continue on... At least you won't have to suffer through Journey's top 10 hits of the 80s. ha
  43. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: I think this is great! Soon perhaps men will take the initiative and invent clubs where they can go in order not to 'bother' the women. By congregating away from women, they will thus be keeping them safe from harm from all those violent, deranged, sex-obsessed men.

    Maybe these clubs shouldn't allow aggressive dancing though - too much risk of violence from these testosterone crazed males. Instead, perhaps just quiet conversation or reading a book or newspaper in sedate surroundings, maybe while sipping a pint or enjoying a glass of port. Of course, in the interest of safety, no women will be allowed, since they would be in danger from all these violent, dangerous men.

    How about we call these places 'Men's Clubs'? It would be such a novel idea, maybe it will catch on and further the cause of women's safety?
  44. Arn N from Kitchener, Canada writes: carol c and Alistair, please google the word 'misandry.'

    Best of luck to you!
  45. Jeremy K from vancouver canada, Canada writes: more of society's double standards. if men tried this the outcry would be deafening....
  46. A C from TO, Canada writes: Why we encourage insecurity and segregation in this day and age is beyond me. Quite honestly, if you are a woman who feels that you could be raped at any moment in a man's company, you have serious mental issues, possible schizophrenia, paranioa, and need therapy immediately. Removing yourself from men in order to enjoy your life is not an appropriate solution to your problem. You will never trust anyone. That is not a comment on this article: I'm not saying that is what these women are doing at all. I have been shocked, insulted and enraged by several comments on the matter, however. To people like Carol C and others who insist that no matter where they are, they have the potential to be victimised if they are in a man's company, please get professional help. These women are dancing because they enjoy the company of others, not because they fear victimization. As well: Alistair: 'Despite harsh legal and social sanctions, many men still rape (and even murder) at will. ' Many? MANY? what world are you living in? what country are you living in? What century are you living in? Are there 'many' Robert Pickton's out there that I should be afraid of? Golden Crumb: 'many women to live in a constant state of awareness that they have the potential to be victimized at ANY moment. ' I'm very disturbed to hear things like this. It makes no sense to me. Obviously we must be living in different societies, or classes, or countries or ... something, because this if this is the case, it is too serious an issue for me to not be aware of. Are you saying that, when I am with my lover, she is afraid she may be victimized by me? That she doesnt and will never trust me? That I afford her no comfort? That when I go to dance at a club with my friends or whomever, women are simply looking at me and guaging the likeliness that I will victimize them? I cant imagine anyone living with that kind of fear and even hoping to live a fulfilling life.
  47. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Knowledge is True Opinion from Canada writes: '...Yes, I can blame young men. They have no right to touch. It's like saying someone deserved to be raped because they were dressed in a certain way...'

    This is always a touchy subject because clearly there is never a justified reason to assault someone, and that's obvious what uninvited touching is.

    However, neither would I walk down a street in Harlem in the middle of the night with a twenty hanging out of my pocket and then act surprised when I get mugged.

    That said, I applaud this Dance Dance Party Party thing. It seems very empowering and I hope they enjoy it.
  48. A C from TO, Canada writes: Also, thank you to people like Sue City. I was losing faith in real people.
  49. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: A C from TO, Canada: Some people never really recover from serious sexual attacks and do in fact form a schema designed to preclude future events that inevitably leads to over-sensitivity. This is common to all extreme fears.

    For example, say you were mugged and beaten which resulted in such a schema. You could see a thousand acts of kindness and one of violence and the former acts would never register with you at all, only the latter.

    They quite literally see nothing but the feared act over and over.

    Just consider this in terms of how much sympathy you show.
  50. David Guy from Canada writes: Phil King - I think some sort of mental illness is involved here in making Carol C. think that women must be segregated out of safety and the constant threat of rape and sexual assault. Why not just wear a burka whenever you do go out?
  51. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: David Guy from Canada: That's sort of what I was inferring. The burkha wouldn't help though, since her schema seems to hand all the prescriptive power to the objects of her fear obsession.

    What she clearly needs is long term counselling, and I say this in all seriousness. You don't get over that stuff on your own, and medication would likely make the symptoms worse in the long run without cognitive therapy.

    Let's be clear though. She has zero blame in this situation, only a responsibility to herself not to be held captive by the criminal actions of those who initiated this phobia in the first place.
  52. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: AC from Toronto, are you saying there are almost no rapists or murderers? Many means more than a few. It doesn't mean 'majority' or 'large percentage of' or whatever spin you are trying to put on my words. Most men are well socialized and wouldn't dream of hurting a woman. A small but significant minority will. What size is this minority? I dunno. 2% maybe? Perhaps 4%? Or 6%? I really don't know. But I know it is more than a handful. Arn N, I know what misandry means, and I am nothing of the sort. In fact, I am often critical of feminists for blaming 'society' for man's violence. Violence is our natural state; it is society that actually socializes us to be less violent. Also, feminists conveniently forget that 75% of murder victims in North America are MALES. That means MALES are are at three times greater risk of being murdered. However, when it comes to random violence by predators, it is women who are most often victimized. Ditto for domestic violence. (I will say though, that any woman who demonstrates a liking for Journey is bound to increase the attention she receives from the unsavoury characters among us. My God, when Journey starts playing, get the hell off the dance floor NOW!! For your own safety!!)
  53. David Guy from Canada writes: Alistair - I don't believe your statistic about 75 per cent of murder victims being male fits here, because they were probably killed by other men. Phil King - you're right, I should pity Carol for this tragic mental illness. She certainly fits the victim profile in this scenario.
  54. Michael Peters from Toronto, Canada writes: Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? With people like A C and David Guy around, I don't doubt for one second how difficult it can be to be a woman. It seems like they see the world in black and white. There's lots of grey. Lots. I am by no means a feminist of any kind, I like to think that I can see both sides of the issue and appreciate that there are things I'll never understand because of my gender.
  55. David Guy from Canada writes: Michael Peters, It appears your ignorance is indeed bliss. I was suggesting that the issue is not as extreme as the women in this female-only dance group are saying. It's definitely not black and white, no.
  56. Michael Peters from Toronto, Canada writes: David - you come down pretty hard on Carol C for what I believe to be fair and well balanced posts, so your not simply 'suggesting that the issue is not as extreme as the women in this female-only dance group are saying,', you actually accuse someone of having mental issues for having a contrary opinion. You probably think you're a pretty nice guy, but judging by your posts here (and I'll admit it might not be fair, but it's all I have to go on), you don't come across as one. I mean, come on. 'Tragic mental illness?' Seriously?
  57. Tobin Manley from The Bronx, NYC, United States writes: Perfect for Elaine from Seinfeld.
  58. carol c from Canada writes: Mr. Guy and Mr. King I assure you that my mental health is in fine form. I'm grand really, and life has been good to me. When I post something like this, 'I adore men. Men are my friends and family. They are usually wonderful creatures,' as part of my opinion, why do you feel that what I have to say is unbalanced? I'd suggest that unbalanced is suggesting that anyone who has differing views or experiences than yourselves require counseling for the mental illness of thinking differently than yourselves.

    When I detail my own experience of assault and physical violence commited against me, making myself vulnerable to the entire world via the internet, what part of that speaks to feelings of overwhelming fear? I'm not afraid of men. I'm strong enough to talk about being physically hurt, and strong enough to believe I can fight back by speaking out about these experiences instead of being ashamed or afraid to talk about them. What is disturbing here is that despite persuasive statistics you believe the problem is me.
  59. David Guy from Canada writes: Ms. C, I'm glad you believe you haven't got any mental health issues, and hopefully this is true. We didn't say this because you had a differing viewpoint. We made the statement because you believe women need to be isolated to protect them from a small minority of men who commit rape and sexual assault. Once again I repeat, the women-only dance events set a scary precedent. It may lead to women-only shopping malls, grocery stores and restaurants. There needs to be more education about sex crimes than simply isolating women like this.
  60. Michael Peters from Toronto, Canada writes: '...women-only dance events set a scary precedent. It may lead to women-only shopping malls, grocery stores and restaurants.' Good grief. David, you then go on to say 'There needs to be more education about sex crimes than simply isolating women like this,' but use the term 'we' in your post, leading me to conclude that you share the opinions of A C - who judging by his post of 3:26 doesn't seem to think that sex crimes are a serious issue in the first place and that women have no cause or reason to feel threatened by men. I confess, I don't get what your issue is.
  61. David Guy from Canada writes: Michael, I appreciate you probably don't understand. Sex crimes are certainly a serious issue, but I think the statements made by Carol C. tend to sensationalize and overdramatize to what extent the problem exists. Once again, to stay on track, I don't think the solution is for women to hide at gender specific events like this. It sets a scary precedent.
  62. Steve Gibbons from Calgary, Canada writes: Good for the women that want to participate in this. Good exercise, a good time, and probably a great place to develop friendships.

    Its natural for guys to get their blood boiling over gender exclusive events when we've seen a lot of our male institutions forced to include the opposite sex. But does it really matter? There's still plenty of teams, sports activities, or clubs where we can still do the same.

    One comment above talked about groups of girls going to clubs and being constantly hit on. Thats what the clubs are for. They might not be there looking for attention but I guarantee one of their friends are. Else they wouldn't be there. The poster in question should probably join or start a DDPP group if thats what they're looking for. At least it would clear up some of the confusion for guys at the clubs.
  63. carol c from Canada writes: 'you believe women need to be isolated to protect them from a small minority of men who commit rape and sexual assault'

    Please point out where I said anything like that. I never suggested this at any time, and you are simply putting words in my mouth to make some your point. What I said was, 'The reason that women want no men at this event is to keep it a safe space.' I went on to suggest that this was different from mens' only spaces due to the underlying reasons behind each space's exclusivity. The discussion is centered around a womens' only dance class. I never inferred that women need to be isolated to protect them from men.

    Again I point out the statistics. 51% of women have been sexually assaulted. How is acknowledging the fact that this is part of half of women's life experience being over dramatic or sensational?

    It's a freakin' dance class, why do you really care? If you want to get some male rage on head over to the custody/divorce column.
  64. David Guy from Canada writes: Ms. C., no need to get angry. This isn't just about a dance class, either. It's about a broader social issue like equality and respect for gender in society today. Hiding out in women-only 'spaces' will not help. Statistics can be easily twisted to support anyone's point. If you survey ten men and find out five of them have been victimized somehow by women, does that then mean half of all men have been victimized by women? Depends on the size of your sample group and how the questions are worded, doesn't it? Now how about taking your female rage over to the custody/divorce column?
  65. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: Oh, lordy . . . another 'empowering' event ('I am a victim'), i.e., therapy.

    Great. And so needed.

    Gotta love some of the comments here . . . slamming men and then -- when this is pointed out -- denials of (you guessed it): slamming men. Can't have it both ways; oh, wait -- this is THERAPY (i.e., making oneself feel important, special, victimized, etc.). SORRY.
  66. Arn N from Kitchener, Canada writes: carol c, I checked your stats, and the '...51% of women [who] have been sexually assaulted...' are based on a SURVEY taken back in 1993. Repeat, a SURVEY! Don't you think that's a little dubious? Who did they survery?

    If you check the same statistics Canada website you'll see that in 1993 there were 3 reported sexual assaults per 100,000 people. Since then it has dropped to 1.5/100,000. Level III sexual assaults have been cut in half since the early 90s!!!

    I'm not sure where the 51% of women being sexually assaulted comes from??? That would mean 51,000/100,000 people are sexually assaulted, which doesn't make any sense!
  67. David Guy from Canada writes: Arn N. from Kitchener: I suspected as much. It's just like the young woman who was arrested in Toronto this week until she testified against her allegedly abusive boyfriend. She even lied to her own lawyer and the media about her pregnancy due date - it's next month rather than next week.
  68. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: Arn N: You ask too many questions . . . for some who comment here. You seem to be obsessed with 'facts' . . . 'truth' . . . 'accuracy' . . . 'methodology', etc. Sad, really.

    Please prepare for some serious tantrums, to follow. By questioning those survey results, you will shortly be . . . well, YOU know.
  69. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: 'Therapy' should be distinguished from 'analysis'. The latter tries to find genuine 'answers' based upon an objective world-view; the former (see this article) tries to tell the person seeking the therapy that he/she is a victim, it's 'the world' (run by, uh, you-know-whos) that is in the wrong and doesn't 'understand' or 'appreciate' the person seeking the therapy, etc. . . . the goal is to give the person seeking the therapy a bloated sense of self-importance and world-historical significance ('empowerment') so as to make one's way in the world with . . . a bloated sense of self-importance and world-historical significance and a basis for blaming everyone else for one's own dilemmas.
  70. David Guy from Canada writes: CD W and Hossein, meet Carol C. I'm sure you will get along great with her. I can't say I agree with your views, but ...
  71. carol c from Canada writes: Where do you come by those statistics Arn N? Seems that it's not the Stats Can site as they state roughly 80 reported sexual assaults per 100,000 people.

    http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/85-570-XIE/2006001/figures/figure12.htm

    We do know that in 1999, in Canada, 23,872 sexual assaults (total of all types) were reported to police. This translates into a rate of 78 sexual assaults per 100,000 people and marks a 7.3% decline from 1998 (Statistics Canada 2000).

    Further Stats Canada estimates that 6% of sexual assaults are reported to police. Statistics Canada, 'The Violence Against Women Survey,' The Daily, November 18, 1993.

    I use these studies because they're the best out there on sexual assault figures. I'd be interested in seeing any others that are available. Other than self-reporting, and considering the above estimate that only 6% of sexual assault is reported, how else would a study on the topic be completed?

    Mr. Guy, glad to see that I've gone from tragically mentally ill, to overdramatic and sensational, to angry, to once again needing therapy. Frankly I'm feeling slightly nauseous with all this emotional turmoil.
  72. Mike Sumners from Toronto, Canada writes: hossein hajiagha from Victoria, Canada writes:'far as I know you are white Canadian are so gay in BC ,In most of Toronto looks to me people more educated on this matter as in BC. may because BC are British ? sorry this is true every time's I get online or out to look for women , I saw lesbian or gay or hooker every where, lonely Canadian women with sad face or so fat and ugly smoking so much and drinking with ugly tattoos all over the body bad dressing ...and dreaming to date supper man? why Canadian are willing to became Homo or live like this and not dating opposite sex? get married have child good life .I don't know?'

    Perhaps your lack of success with women is due to your lack of success with the English language. On the other hand, maybe white Canadian women are just finally catching on that a relationship with a muslim man is not the best idea (you know, that whole misogyny thing in islam...).
  73. Keystone Provincial from NOT Winnipeg, Canada writes: Carol C., I think I get you and I admire your willingness to speak out here. Unfortunately you are proving your point by the responses you've gotten here from the men who feel threatened by your comments. I don't know about your facts and I don't really put too much faith in statistics, but from an anecdotal point of view, yes, there are many women who feel uncomfortable in the club scene and I'm sure this type of outing is perfect for them. I am concerned by the exclusivity of it and I'm sure that if a man were to challenge it in court it would become a real flash point in the media. We seem to believe that 'equality' should mean everybody gets the same thing but to be truly enlightened about it we should view equality as people getting what they need instead. This is all probably very incoherent and disjointed but I want to thank you, Carol, for making me rethink my position and opening my mind just a bit. I would probably be happier if my teenage daughter were to go to a DDPP rather than a club with her friends.
  74. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: Silly plus silly.

    If this was any sort of men-only thing the amount of pissing and moaning about human-rights-this and charter-of-freedoms-that would drown out the crap music to which these women are so hypocritically wobbling.
  75. Golden Crumb from Canada writes: hossein... go take some classes in Canadian culture and ethics.

    If you really can't handle the 'hookers' then maybe you have to stop paying for sex.

    If you want to find a good girl, I suggest you go to your nearest church, instead of looking in bars, exotic dance clubs, and behind seedy motels.

    Seriously. The ones who complain the loudest, are often the worst at perpetuating this stuff.
  76. Golden Crumb from Canada writes: and g&m... your editing bot sucks! i cannot understand how my other post did not get through.

    maybe your editorial staff is not very interested in posting information, and is more interested in posting inflammatory remarks. (Obvious since my flame post of hossein made it through.)
  77. Golden Crumb from Canada writes: let me try again... i hope the editing bots don't censor this comment:

    studies can look at information in many ways.

    the studies many of you refer to in this post that demonstrate LOW rates of sexual assault are studies that look at REPORTED incidences of assault in one year. So for these data to be collected, a woman has to go to the police office and file charges against the perpetrator. Women are often reluctant to file charges for two reasons 1) the perpetrator is often someone she knows, and she doesn't want to cause trouble 2) most women are aware that these types of prosecutions turn into charades of character bashing and arguments of he said vs. she said (because there is often no proof).

    When a study of a survey type reports high numbers of sexual assault, those studies usually ask a woman if she has EVER been a victim of sexual assault IN HER LIFETIME. Since these are surveys, and there is low cost (in terms of negative social or personal repercussions) to answering a question of this type, you are more likely to get a more accurate report of LIFETIME INCIDENCE of sexual assault. LIFETIME INCIDENCE does not mean that all those women were assaulted in one year, it means that in their whole lives they have at one time been a victim of abuse or assault.
  78. Golden Crumb from Canada writes: whew... they got through... i'm continuing...

    There is a very high cost to women for reporting violent and sexual crimes against themselves or their children. Assault is grossly underreported. And even those survey type questions are thought to be underestimates of true lifetime incidence rates of violence against women.

    Most women (and some men) who have taken part in self defense classes/women's studies courses/gender studies courses/courses in sexuality, are well aware of one pervasive cultural myth: The myth of 'stranger danger.' Stranger danger is the idea that a woman is likely to be hurt by someone she doesn't know.

    Stranger danger is a fallacy. According to studies, interviews with women, and reviews of police reports, women are more likely to be hurt by someone they know... a spouse, a family member, a friend, a friend of a family member, a friend of a friend.

    To tell women that we are paranoid is insulting our intelligence, and goes against all the relevant information that exists on protecting our safety. And sadly, if you cannot see the dangers that many women (not all women of course) face on a day to day basis, then you are naive and have too much faith in your fellow man.
  79. ex pat from Cobourg from Memphis, United States writes: Several comments. I agree with Carol C and Golden Crumb on the rates of sexual assault on women. Both my wife (49) and my daughter (17) have had some type of unwanted sexual advances, groping or inappropriate touching. Both are 'good girls', don't dress lasciviously or otherwise invite sexual attention. It is often just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anecdotaly, I would have to agree with the '51%' statistic.

    I also see much wisom in the comment from Keystone, 'We seem to believe that 'equality' should mean everybody gets the same thing but to be truly enlightened about it we should view equality as people getting what they need instead.'

    I see no harm in the classes and only something positive for those that wish to enjoy it. And for those that say in effect, why should women have female only clubs when we can't, you can't have it both ways. If you want them, thay get them too. So you should be their greatest supporters!
  80. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: David Guy . . . Nice evasion, but your're a bit obvious as to what you're seeking here. Yeah, you get some points with those who are interested not in communicating information but in seeking 'emotional reassurance and acceptance in The Group'. What a coincidence: that's what the point of the dancing group in this article is, too.

    Feel 'empowered' yet ?
  81. Mr. Reilly from Canukistan, writes: It sure seems to me that human rights are not for male WASPS .taLK abouot discrimination.
  82. Arn N from Kitchener, Canada writes: You know, I don't know why I bother writing here - I could be doing way better things right now. carol c, you need to look at Level III sexual assaults (the severest form of sexual assault) on the statscan website. But let's take your figures. If 80/100,000 women are sexually assaulted then there are 99,920 who are not. Let's say that only 6% report, as you say - then that means that 1,333/100,000 women are truly sexually assaulted. Which in turn, means that 98,667 women are NOT sexually assaulted. Okay forget about the numbers for one second. You may be shocked to hear this carol c, but under the definition of sexual assault (Level I to Level III,) men have been sexually assaulted by women just as often as women by men. Can I relate a couple of stories of my own? Story #1: Above you mention an experience you had on a bus when you were 15. Well that's funny because I remember when I was 15 and on a bus in Toronto, my friend and I (who was also 15) were approached by 2 women in their mid 20's (I'm guessing they were that age, they were a lot older than us.) Anyway, they made a rather strong and overt pass at us. We were flattered but were smart enough to blow them off. Was that sexual assault? Story #2: I remember when I was 13 and at a religious retreat with my school. My teacher, who was in her late 20's at the time, would sneak into the boy's dormitory after dark and read pornographic stories to us from her book of erotica. Was that sexual assault? It didn't feel like it, but this grown women definitly got her thrills out of sexually arousing 13 year old boys (who were her students, I might add.) Can you imagine if the genders were reversed?? Every guy can give you similar stories! Women aren't as innocent as you think!!! So I suppose we guys were sexually assaulted by women in our lifetimes too. Although, we would have a hard time believing that we were damaged in any way. If anything, we were lucky!!!!!!
  83. Robin H From Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: And the massive sports stadiums, many tax supported, the sports bars, represent what for men? A story on women finding something fun to on their own, without men triggers juvenile ramblings of a bunch of threatened little men here, but they can't see how tax incentives and scholarships support golf courses and football players? Grow up little men. Women are just dancing. Nothing to fear here...
  84. lyle craver from Vancouver, BC, writes: uh no.

    There's a huge difference between venues that say 'women only' and those that say 'primarily of interest to men but women welcome'. If you like, switch 'men' and 'women' in the above sentence.

    I have no particular issue with men only or women only events but you cannot compare this type of dance event with a sports event - that's apples and oranges.
  85. carol c from Canada writes: Oh I see, you were confusing rape with sexual assault. This is defined by the Criminal Code as, 'Every one commits an aggravated sexual assault who, in committing a sexual assault, wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.' Why would you leave out the majority of sexual assaults to include only the most severe crimes? Do you believe that this is the only kind of assault that counts?

    Yes Arn those numbers are correct. As Golden Crumb points out above those numbers are for 1 year. The number of 51% of women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes is obviously over many years. They in no way cancel each other out, in fact they seem fairly complementary.

    Yes men get sexually assaulted, and it's just a terrible a crime.

    As for your experience, I think your judgment is much more relevant and important than mine. Although according to the criminal code there cannot be an assault if there is not bodily contact (http://www.sacc.to/sya/crime/law.htm). I am assuming that there are other laws covering the type of behaviour you describe. I would add however that if you haven't let your religious school know of your experiences you should probably consider it. It's possible that this woman is actively molesting children, and no matter what your opinion of your experience with her was someone should know that this is a possibility.
  86. bethany middleton from Canada writes: I'd go to one of these events. Why? Because I love dancing and the club scene is horrific. I don't like been leered at, I don't like being bumped, I don't like 'inadvertant' touching...and all those things are all too common at a hetero dance club. I just want to dance. That's all. That's it. I'm not interested in sexual innuendo. Sure, I could dance at home, but I can't get the darkness, the booming sound... The only other alternative for hetero women is to go to a gay dance club. And if you are fortunate enough to have a gay dancing guy as a friend, have them take you. It's completely liberating. NObody's trying to pick you up, nobody's ogling you, nobody is bumping against you....it's amazing. As for unwanted sexual advances: I've had men rub their crotches against me on busy trains/buses and it's disgusting. I also personally know at least five women who have been raped. Those are the ones that happened to tell me, so they are intimate friends. I probably know a lot more. We don't even discuss the rubbing and unwanted touching because they're so commonplace. So yes, I can see women wanting a space where they didn't have to deal with this crap. Are all men like this? No, not at all, but there's certainly an undercurrent of it in many of the posts on these boards. Thanks, Carol C for keeping up the responses.
  87. Christine Best from Canada writes: I skipped to the end of the comments, so maybe someone has already clarified this. Theses women are staging 1 or 2 hour women-only EVENTS! Not starting clubs that bar men, so get off this human rights crap. If I rent a place (community centre, gym, whatever) I can invite whomever I want. If I wanted red-heads only, no one could take it to the HRC. How many guys rent some ice time and invite the GUYS to play hockey?? This has nothing to do with feminism, gender wars, sexism or anything else. Some women are more comfortable letting loose without men around - what's wrong with that? I know men who are more comfortable letting loose without women around, so they have a boys night out (public or private) - so what!?
  88. Dan Thomas from Canada writes: Before my wife and I got married, but when we were still dating she would occasionally go to bars with her girl