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‘We don't have prisoners here’

OMAR EL AKKAD

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 10:17 AM EDT 19/04/08

A place rife with paradox, Guantanamo Bay draws global outrage ...Read the full article

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  1. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'The first prisoners were housed in a facility called Camp X-Ray. The camp, a series of small connected cages, was effectively shut down after three months, but soldiers complain that photos of the camp — showing prisoners in orange jumpsuits, goggles and face masks — have become permanently associated with the detainee operation.'

    BBC website still uses photos (usually the same one) of Camp X-Ray with virtually every article on Guatanamo Bay.
  2. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Given the nature of the act, Guantanamo was necessary.

    And I am not outraged.
  3. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Ed Long writes, 'Given the nature of the act, Guantanamo was necessary.' What of those who are innocent? And I am a supporter of the War on Terrorism, just not the dismantling of western justice.

    http://thislife.org/Radio\Episode.aspx?episode=310

    http://thislife.org/Radio\    Episode.aspx?sched=1185

    [Please remove backslash to retain the underscore]
  4. Anton Berger from Kelowna, Canada writes: I believe the salient point comes at the beginning of the article '...the value of the week is pride'

    how can anyone expect justice from a people that changes it's values on a weekly basis?
  5. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Removing these types from Afghanistan was a huge mistake in the first place.

    Turn them all over to the Afghan government, although many of them are not even Afghans.

    If they want to live by the Koran, they can also die by it. Best Regards.
  6. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Turn the plowshares to swords, or the swords to plowshares?
  7. Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: I must have missed the part about values changing by the week.I did read about as sign on a wall with printing on it - but I guess you can read anything that pleases you into that.
    Try the website 'www.secretagendasforparanoids.com'

    ' Anton Berger from Kelowna, Canada writes: '...the value of the week is pride'
    how can anyone expect justice from a people that changes it's values on a weekly basis?'
  8. John Stanton from Canada writes: It's good there is at least one published place for animals like those that prowl their cages in here.
  9. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: Disgusting, and it is this kind of democracy, freedom and rule of law that is being brought to Afghanistan, where the US invaded and occupied. Wait, invaded, disposed of the govt, setup a puppet govt, and that govt invited in NATO. Oh we do love our democracy and freedom, Western style.
  10. F H from Canada writes: 'Turn them all over to the Afghan government, although many of them are not even Afghans.'

    So, break International Law and the Geneva Conventions? Nice world you'd like us to live in where people are guilty until proven innocent and torture and extrajudicial executions are looking upon with a benign eye.

    I take it you're a member of the Taliban or another like-minded group showing the same 'values' that you espouse?
  11. jeff franklin from Canada writes: Freezing prisoners to near-death, repeated beatings, long forced-standing, waterboarding, cold showers in air conditioned rooms, stress positions (Arrest mit Verschaerfung), witholding of medicine and leaving wounded or sick prisoners alone in cells for days on end- all these have occured at US detention camps under the command of president George W. Bush. Over a hundred documented deaths have occured in these interrogation sessions. The Pentagon itself has conceded homocide by torture in multiple cases.

    'In a world where some treat life as something to be debased and discarded, we need your message that all human life is sacred,' GWB said.

    GWB speaking in Washington D.C. USA to Pope Benedict XVI.

    So what's it gonna be George?
  12. Diane Schweik from EDMONTON, Canada writes: .

    'Global outrage'.Key in the BBC,CBC,Guardian,NDP and all the usual bunch of leftist loonies with a pathological hatred of the US.I think most people couldn't give a damn about these prisoners except the above mentioned and the lawyers looking to make whatever money they can from this.
  13. Terry Maurice from Guelph, Canada writes: Where, along life's way, Diane Schweik did you lose your humanity?
  14. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: The Yanks are exactly like those who they call enemies.
  15. John Anderson from Ladysmith, Canada writes: Condolezza Rice, George Bush et al. were all aware of the torture inflicted on US 'detainees' and are war criminals.

    See:
    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/Story?id=4635175

    and Robert Greenwald's excellent clip at:

    http://condimustgo.com/?utm_source=rgemail
  16. John Anderson from Ladysmith, Canada writes: The United States is a war empire. It profits from destruction and reconstruction on the back of taxpayers funding an outsourced war. It's time to shun all US citizens who visit our country to show our collective outrage at their illegitimate government. Shame them into feeling the disgust which comes from any impartial reading of the facts and events which led them to illegally invade Iraq. Do not break the law when you shun US citizens. Do not call them 'Americans' because we are all Americans in this hemisphere but their arrogance has led them to take the name to mean 'only us'. Turn your back on them when they ask directions. Ignore them whenever possible. If you're required to do business with them as an employee, work slowly, never maintain eye contact. Be curt but not rude. As the world begins to show its moral outrage at the US and treat its citizens accordingly, maybe, just maybe, the people in the US will begin to dismantle the military-industrial state which Eisenhower warned us about. Don't be deluded by the so-called US elections where the choices amount to Twiddle-Dee or Twiddle-Dum. Multinational corporations run the USA, not the elected politicians. Google Halliburton Watch or do some research. Watch 'Iraq for Sale' or 'No End in Sight' or PBS Frontline's 'Bush's War'. Vote for governments which promise an economy which serves the needs of people, rather than convince you that you must serve the needs of an economy which sucks wealth from the poor to the rich.
  17. John Anderson from Ladysmith, Canada writes: Diane Schweik has nothing to add to this discussion except name-calling and offers no evidence to support her vacuous claims. It's easier to call some a 'lefty' than examine the facts.
  18. Clive Gingell from Canada writes: In that same speech, Eisenhower also said:

    'A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.'
  19. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: The very values we hold most sacred will be our downfall as those that hate us do not play by rules governed by such values - this will be the West's undoing. Cry for these men now, as you won't have an opportunity later while they are beheading you.
  20. Paul Thompson from Canada writes: You're really starting to lose it Diane, seriously. I mean, I've seen some of your more intelligent postings and you have had them but here you just sound like a psycopath. You are almost degenerating to Ed Lewis' level.
  21. Diane Schweik from EDMONTON, Canada writes: .

    Well guys,I'm just not a bleeding heart for these criminal psychopaths who aim to kill us and destroy western society.These people laugh at your defence of them.Useful idiots etc.

    John Anderson

    Just read and listen to the media I mentioned and you will see exactly the kind of lunatic drivel I mentioned.
  22. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: That's it Paul Thompson from Canada, espouse our western values but then turn around and denigrate and attempt to silence those that don't agree with your view of the world.....you truly are below contempt.
  23. F H from Canada writes: ''Global outrage'.Key in the BBC,CBC,Guardian,NDP and all the usual bunch of leftist loonies with a pathological hatred of the US.'

    Dianne makes the mistake of equating dispproval with the present American regime with disapproval of the American people. A rather silly thing to do considering the regime has a disapproval rating of 82% with the American people right now.
  24. F H from Canada writes: 'It's time to shun all US citizens who visit our country to show our collective outrage at their illegitimate government.'

    John, remember over 50% of the American people did NOT vote in the President, thus shunning ALL American's is not exactly logical, especially when you consider Bush Co. has the lowest approval rating with the American people since the States existed.
  25. Paul Thompson from Canada writes: Lewis, you're the one who says our values will be our downfall, I'm saying they are our strength. You and Diane say they are in Gitmo, therefore they automatically are 'terrorists'. You say I'm beneath contempt, but for me that's a compliment, considering the source. You have made your own contempt for human life quite apparent on some of your other postings, so you have no right to get self-righteous with anybody.
  26. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Interesting.

    John Anderson from Ladysmith, Canada writes: 'It's time to shun all US citizens who visit our country, turn your back on them when they ask directions, ignore them whenever possible, if you're required to do business with them as an employee, work slowly, never maintain eye contact'.

    Um, and I am just SO sure that all of John Anderson's buddies behave that way when Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore visit Canada to give speeches...

    John Anderson's plea to his fellow citizens is disgusting.

    John Anderson is in essence invoking a primitive mentality by asking that all his fellow citizens act like racists by treating an entire group of people as guilty simply by virtue of the color of the emblem on their passports.

    And he weirdly sees himself as respectable and virtuous in so doing. That is what is really pathetic.

    John Anderson would do well to listen to speeches by Martin Luther King about judging people based on color - be it of skin or of passport emblem!
  27. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ..this represents the very worse of the human condition....
  28. Ben SGT/USMC from United States writes:

    On one hand there's 'Club Gitmo'....

    And on the other hand, there's the NHL.

    We're both sick societies....
  29. Diane Schweik from EDMONTON, Canada writes: .
    F H

    Read what John Anderson says about hating Americans.Brody calls it a scumbag nation !The problem is a lot of Canadians have had a chip on their shoulder for years in regard to the US.Dubya,whom I also detest,just gives them an excuse to vent their spleen.

    Some of you terrorist lovers should visit some of those wonderful ME democracies to see how these types live.Incidentally,if you're a Jew you are not allowed in.

    Unfortunately,I have had to spend a lot of time in the UK recently and have seen the way the obsession with 'yuman rights' has led to judges preventing the government deporting known terrorist associates.The mantra being that the rights of these scum is more important than national security.Looking at the views of some of you then the same mindset has infected Canada.
  30. George L. from Canada writes: Extradite all these fine people to Canada and house them next to the most vocal of liberals who believe these murdering head hunters are being mistreated. Then we'll discover whether liberalism really is a disease or just window dressing, a politically correct veneer affected by self-styled elites to make themselves feel somehow superior to the unwashed masses. I'm betting it's the latter.
  31. Paul Thompson from Canada writes: No Diane, you are wrong, if someone here had provable connections with groups advocating violence, I'd say hit the road . Of course, I'd also maybe want to take a closer look at people raising money for say Israeli settlers in the West Bank, because in their own way they are aiders and abetters of terrorism too.
  32. J Sparks from Toronto, Canada writes: For anyone interested in more on this subject, I urge you to get the latest issue of Vanity Fair - there's an article written by Philippe Sands on Guantanamo called The Green Light, with some damning information on White House involvement in the use of torture. It is fairly likely that a war crimes tribunal will be held sooner or later, given the research this particular journalist has published. I urge everyone to take the time to read the article before making up their minds about the right and wrong on this issue...and we as Canadians should be extremely concerned about our own government's contribution to the war on terror..
  33. CD W from Canada writes: When Lincoln was murdered, the perps went before a military commission, when nazi spies were captured in America, they went before a military commission. These guys are illegal combatants, their existence was never contemplated by any law abiding society that has to wage war in order to protect itself. So these guys down there get their 3 hots and a cot, and are not allowed to kill women and children. It could have been worse for them, if they were in some sort of uniform, they would have had the UCMJ applied to them immediately on the battlefied where evidence of war crimes having been committed, would have had them shot on the spot. So too bad, so sad, suck it up buttercup, you just have to want to stop killing Jews, Christians, and other freedom loving peoples.
  34. F H from Canada writes: 'F H, Read what John Anderson says about hating Americans.Brody calls it a scumbag nation !'

    I did and responded about it.

    Lunatics like this in no way represent the majority of Canadians when it comes to our brothers and sisters down South whose country has been hijacked by the ultra-conservative in power just now.
  35. F H from Canada writes: 'Some of you terrorist lovers should visit some of those wonderful ME democracies to see how these types live.Incidentally,if you're a Jew you are not allowed in.'

    I've been clear that I'm pro-habeus corpus, pro human rights, pro-Geneva Conventions, pro-International Law, pro equality between the sexes, pro-freedom of assembly, pro-freedom of speech, pro-free press, pro-freedom of religion, etc. etc.

    Not one of those is much cared for by terrorists. In fact, the terrorists stand against all of them, thus anyone who also is against them is closer in ideals to terrorists than myself.
  36. scott thomas from Canada writes: Funny. The Taliban was an invention of the CIA to battle the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, and now they're held us as the worst of the worst. How quickly freedom fighters become terrorists when the political interests it serves become obsolete. Now, unfortunately, the US has lost all credibility with regard to being a free state: torture, secret prisons, no habeus corpus, child prisoners, spying on its own, Geneva convention redered quaint. How low the US has fallen, thanks to Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and the silent complicity of the rest of us.
  37. Chris E. from vancouver, Canada writes: ' Afghanistan, where the US invaded and occupied.'

    You don't even know what you're talking about. The Taliban were defeated by the Northern Alliance. There were only a few hundred American special forces on the ground during that phase of the conflict.
  38. Ghetto Dude from Istanbul, Turkey writes: Two errors do not add up to one correct answer.

    Guantanamo is surely a torture centre which should not exist at all and none of those freaks in there are randomly picked up innocent boys while picking up daisies from the prairies. Kiling the individual bacterium one by one in one person's body, is not a method of curing an epidemic disease. As everybody knows, eliminating the causes should be the starting point. However, the term everybody definitely does not comprise Bush.

    After Bush's 7 years of war against terrorism and the seizure of the invisible weapons of mass destruction, what we ended up with, is the evaporated USD along with a radical Muslim infestation all around!

    Islam cannot be domesticised via Delta camps, the west may instead try not to support the radical Muslim elements within predominantly Muslim countries (such as ours) under the name of democracy. Does anyone know that, a guy who can be considered as the Turkish counterpart of 1980s Ayetollah of Iran, were being fed by the US in the US for two decades and today the US is planning and attempting to deploy that guy in Turkey, hallucinated with the thought that he is 'America's friend'?

    Undermine all the secular regimes of the Muslim countries, call the university graduates there with 3 family members human rights violators, encourage the families of 12 members in which being a grade 3 drop-out is a standard to rule their countries, sponsor all separatist and religious establishments for 'democratic purposes and human rights matters only', and do not then understand where all these terrorists are emerging from. You cannot imagine how hard the EU is trying to protect sweet Islamic folks from us - the antidemocratic seculars - in Turkey now.

    Well, I am naming the source countries of the Islamic terrorism: the US, the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Canada and the like. Al-Qaeda is alive and well and happily living sous le ciel de vous, not in the caves of Afghanistan.

  39. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring, Canada writes: Some of the people held in Guantanamo may indeed by 'terrorists', but holding people without trial, in conditions that amount to torture, if they are not outright being tortured, does a lot to undermine America's image in the world. The Bush administration, and some of the tough guys in this discussion, argue that Guantanamo is an unfortunate necessity.

    But you can't have it both ways; either you believe in the rule of law and the right of everybody to a fair trial, or you don't. The prisoners at Guantanamo are not being given fair trials.

    Omar Khadr may have done some bad things, but like everybody, he deserves a fair trial and our government should be advocating that he be tried in his home country - as has every other government with citizens that were held in Guantanamo - with consideration given to the fact that he was a minor at the time. This would be happening, but isn't because Steve is so eager to ingratiate himself to the Americans.
  40. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Very, very interesting.

    The dude from Turkey proclaims: 'I am naming the source countries of the Islamic terrorism: the US, the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, and Canada'.

    Okay, Turkey dude, explain to readers how those countries caused the following acts of Islamic terrorism:

    1. The three Christian bible publishers who were slaughtered by Muslims in Turkey in April 2007 were horribly tortured for three hours prior to being killed, each stabbed more than 50 times.

    2. In February 2006, a Muslim Turkish teenager in Turkey shot a Roman Catholic priest to death as he prayed in his church.

    3. In December 2007 in Turkey, A Catholic priest was hospitalized after Sunday mass, having been stabbed in the stomach by a Muslim Turk, the assault described as 'the latest in a series of attacks on Christians in Turkey'.

    4. In November 2007, In November this year, an Assyrian cleric was abducted in southeast Turkey and rescued by security forces.

    5. In November 2003, police arrested several Turks and 'police believe they have identified the suicide bombers as two Turkish men previously named as accomplices of the synagogue bombers' who bombed Jewish synagogues in Turkey killing Jewish worshippers there.

    Readers will look forward to your explanation, Turkey dude, for how Canada and France and Belgium are 'responsible' for the fact that it is a hobby of some Turkish Muslims to slaughter peaceful Christians and Jews there in Turkey.

    Do explain, Turkey dude!
  41. aging oldtool from Canada writes: Tyler Williams of Seattle, perhaps you might explain what any of the incidents you raised have to do with Guantanamo. But first, please don't rush out, as you have, to defend Canada, because your use of our country's name appears to be a cheap, gratuitous effort to paint us as another of the Christian nations standing up to Islam. While we do have Christians in Canada, along with Jews, we also have Muslums, Bhuddists and a great many belief systems, including quite large number of what you would term agnostics, atheists and other non-beleivers. Much like your country one might say, except that Canada at least tries to govern from a secular perspective, unlike your bible thumping fiery Bush types. This rather lengthy article is about Guantnamo, not what happened 20 years ago or might happen in the future. Of course, should you want to expand it into a 'clash of faiths' type issue then please don't overlook the Crusades. Those dozen or more efforts at invasion and submission of non-Christans (or heathens if you will), remain to this day one of the defining issues that continue to work against understanding and peace. While you're at it have a look at your own government's policy of exterminating American Indians from the early 19th century through to the 20th. The obliteration of Gen. Custer and his troops in 1875 happened because he was acting as a terrorist on behalf of his government in attacking Indian nations with the intent to kill. In the meantime, as for the claim 'we don't have prisoners' and this isn't a prison, it may actually be the one piece of truth offered by US officials so far. After all the brutal torture of any human being is against US law as well as the Geneva Convention and the somewhat wobbly ethical norm most of the world tries to at least reach for.
  42. Jim Cohoon from Chilliwack, Canada writes: Anyone who peeks behind the wizard's curtain and actually investigates the nature of the decisions that led to hundreds of Middle Eastern people (conveniently called 'terrorists' by those with political agendas superceding their respect for justice) being imprisoned in Gitmo (without trial for several years) knows essentially what the political gatekeepers at Gitmo know -- that only a very small fraction of the prisoners can in any reasonable way (related to truth and justice) be associated with anti-US terrorism of any sort. Many are there originally because they were essentially sold for money to warring tribal leaders and then conveniently handed over to Americans looking for any excuse to fill Gitmo. And most of them remain there as political hostages -- not for what they actually did (as the denial of trials makes clear) but as symbolic examples of scary bogeymen that can be politically used within America for domestic American political purposes related to the perpetuation of the 'war on terror'. In many ways, Gitmo represents the very opposite of true American values, and will be a shameful stain on the American image for generations.
  43. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Diane Schweik writes, 'Key in the BBC,CBC,Guardian,NDP and all the usual bunch of leftist loonies with a pathological hatred of the US.' Empty rhetoric. Among the lawyers working pro bono on behalf of some Gitmo detainees, especially Chinese Uighurs that you'll hear more and more about towards the summer Olympics, is Republican activist Sabin Willett from a GOP law firm in Boston, whose name may ring a bell from the Wall Street Journal. These are the same anti-Communist Uighurs praised in The Weekly Standard and National Review for their anti-Communism.

    Then there's the case of German Mehmat Kurnaz who was sold for a bounty (and in some cases, bogus bounty money may have found a way to fund bombs that are killing our Forces troops in Afghanistan!) and held for five years without charges, and could not find charges, maybe mistaken identity. His book was recently released.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89502024
  44. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Gitmo houses the enemy, maybe if we were less civilized like the middle east, we would have killed them 5 years ago instead of debating BS about BS terrorists. Man N. America is great when we waste this much time on a jail where the prisoners are getting fat they're fed so well.
  45. Ghetto Dude from Istanbul, Turkey writes: Tyler Williams from seattle, aging oldtool from Canada has provided you with a good answer.

    Let me add that, as you have not understood my point, not only the questions you posed had the wrong address but the incidents you counted and the way you connected them to my posting, were simply irrelevant. You could have asked me the reason why it rained today based on my posting as well.

    I normally do not take the time to answer any Americans of 10 commandments. In general, I suggest you try understanding what you read before starting your crusade.

    As for this example, none of the incidents you refer to are terror acts first of all. The first 2 are incidents of contract killings, the 3rd is an attempted murder, 4th one is an abduction within the so-called independence warriors region and the 5th is an arrest for some God knows what reason. Given the time span, you can presume you will have less chances of survival on Yonge street. Anyway, all those incidents were related to a religion which I was talking clearly against. The aggressors were by no means hobbiests or had anything personal to do with their victims. They were the semi-literate boys of organised gangs fed by the religious government, which is but the beloved party of the EU. Do you think secularists were killing the members of religions they do not give a damn to, for fun? (By the way, those 3 dim-witted who died in that Goddamn town for the sake of publishing Bible for Bible haters, were bombless suiciders to me. I even do not know where that place is located on the map. Perhaps you might give a try?) I wrote AGAINST Islamism and ALREADY explained why I put the blame on the west.

    If you are burning to fight with someone on the Koran versus Bible issue, I would say such elemantary school books have nothing to do with me and you will have a difficult time in finding such a rival in G&M. Go find someone like you in a more suitable media, at your own cultural level, with a differing opinion.

  46. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: A military welcome sign down the road proclaims that the 'value of the week' is 'Pride.'

    That's 'Arbeit macht frei' in American.
  47. charlie brown from Canada writes: To Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada who wrote: "That's 'Arbeit macht frei' in American." Andre, to compare Gitmo, with all its warts, to NAZI concentration camps, which murdered six million Jews and millions of others, is more than a bit over the top.
  48. Jim Cohoon from Chilliwack, Canada writes: For anyone interested in a revealing glimpse behind the 'wizard's curtain' (or the Pentagon/White House curtain), there is a long article by David Barstow in the New York Times (accessible through The Huffington Post). It is titled: "Behind TV Analysts; The Pentagon's Hidden Hand". The purpose of the "hidden hand" within the media apparently was "to dupe the American public with propaganda". For example, after Amnesty International had called Gitmo "the Gulag of our times", Cheney's office arranged for a team of 'objective' military spokesmen to fly on his plane to take a "carefully orchestrated tour" of Gitmo and then appear on the major TV networks. As it turns out "most of the analysts have ties to military contractors". It goes on, but the point is clear: it is buyer beware when presented with any information from the Bush/Cheney administration regarding Gitmo or the 'war on terror'.
  49. martha stewart from Canada writes: Does anything outside the Middle East inspire more 'terrorism' better than Gitmo?

    I grew up and lived most of my life in an era when the U.S. was the 'good guys.'

    Now there are none.

    So sad.

    As for the 'no prisoners here' etc... the only thing Orwell got wrong in his book 1984 was the date. Its here now full tilt.

    I'm feeling very lucky to have lived when I did, and I'm happy to be old. The future looks all downhill from here.
  50. barry martin from Abbott, TX, United States writes: we could retrain these prisoners to learn French and use snow shovels then send them to Montreal as refugees who then can get their citizenship in 3 years--then they could vote with the lefties. iceman
  51. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: I agree Charlie Brown, it is over the top. And that is exactly my point - that Guantanamo is over the top and that we are looking down a slippery slope.
    Unlimited detention without trial or charge, denial of habeas corpus, renditions, making up new terms (unlawful combatant) to circumvent international treaties (Geneva Conventions), all of that is over the top and looking down a slippery slope.
    The line in the sand is there for a purpose. Once you cross that line, who is to say where or when to stop, whether or not to draw a new line, and if so where to draw it and who should draw it?
    The concentration camps were not step #1, phase 1 of the Nazi attrocities, they were the culmination of progressive steps in the denial of human rights.
    Who would have believed during the Nuremberg Trials that some day the President of the US and his Attorney General would defend the use of torture, and that Congress, with the support of both parties, would condone it?
  52. Hap Stokes from Port Alberni BC, Canada writes: Globe Insider subscriber content
    charlie brown from Canada writes: To Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada who wrote: "That's 'Arbeit macht frei' in American." Andre, to compare Gitmo, with all its warts, to NAZI concentration camps, which murdered six million Jews and millions of others, is more than a bit over the top.

    You are right (so far) Charlie B, but just because 'SeriouS' gassing didn't start until 41 or early 1942 doesn't mean the Nazi's weren't active with the political dissenters starting circa 1933. Then next the deformed and insane, then the criminals, next the gypsies. And the average German (back then) believed all that was needed too.

    First they come for your neighbour.
    Then they come for me.
    Then they come for you too Charlie Brown
  53. Kilgore Trout from Canada writes: Martha Stewart from Canada writes: I grew up and lived most of my life in an era when the U.S. was the 'good guys.'

    You must be really old
  54. charlie brown from Canada writes: Hap: You are even more over the top than Andre. Geez are you guys for real?
  55. Random Person from Heard and Mc Donald Islands writes: The Americans should just leave that base and leave all of the terrorists there as they would blend beautifully to the Cuban communist society......
  56. charlie brown from Canada writes: Andre and Hap. You ignore the fact that America is a vibrant democracy with lots of checks and balances. The American public is just as aware about what is going on it Gitmo as we are and just as, if not more, concerned about it. It would not permit a "slippery slide" into the depravities of the NAZI (National Socialist) dictatorship. Methinks you should both get down from your self-righteous anti-American high horses.
  57. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: Charlie Brown, I am not on a horse. There is no way - I assume - that something like Gunatanamo would have happened without 9/11. But 9/11 did happen, and we allowed the perpetrator to lower our ethics, proving that our standards could not sustain our principles in "the real world."
    What happens next time some wing nut pulls a stunt against the US, or Britain, or Luxembourg for that matter.
    I am not at all anti US. What I oppose is to surrender principles in the heat of the moment. With all we have done - please not that I say we, not the US or Bush - since 9/11 with all the short-cuts in our civil rights and principles, we have not caught bin Laden, but we have jailed and tortured a lot of people without cause. Arar being just one example.
  58. siren call from Canada writes: I don't think the "hang em high" crowd can possibly have read this article in its entirety.

    There are examples given of people who are deemed no longer a threat:

    "Of the 280 prisoners here, the U.S. plans to charge about 80. An additional 70 have been deemed "no longer a threat," a term that dodges the possibility that an innocent person was ever imprisoned here. "

    The Uyghurs are a case in point; not charged with anything and they can go anytime they want -- but no country will take them in.

    Also;
    "There are, however, about 130 prisoners in Guantanamo who are, it seems, too innocent to charge and too guilty to let go. One of the biggest obstacles to shutting down Guantanamo is that the U.S. government seems to have no idea what to do with them."

    What a mess. We know that some of the people were caught up in sweeps of various countries, unlikely guilty of anything.

    We compromised our principles only to compromise our principles.
  59. charlie brown from Canada writes: Andre, Siren Call et all. Did any one get murderured?? We, the Western World, are at war, despite what nice, more simple, folks think. It's going to be a long term battle, one which civilization, as we know it, might well lose.
  60. siren call from Canada writes: charlie brown from Canada writes: Andre, Siren Call et all. Did any one get murderured??
    ................................

    I don't follow your question.

    Lots of people have been murdered lately, beginning with 9/11 I guess, since this is what Guantanamo is ostensibly about.
  61. Comments closed, censored, deleted or made to disappear from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: "They're not prisoners and this isn't a prison.'" ... "We don't have prisoners here, sir. We have detainees." Detainees are not interrogated: "The detainee has a reservation at 8." --- Yes, as you say... war is peace, aggression is self-defence, Ben Tre (Vietnam) was destroyed so that it be saved... and this is an exercise in Orwellian logic.
  62. charlie brown from Canada writes: Siren. My point, which you state you could not follow, was: was any anyone murdered in Gitmo?
  63. Festina Lente from Tampa Bay, United States writes: Gitmo, reflects state of the arts in securing dangerous terrorist criminals! USA should expand the facility to accomodate a few of the posters on these boards! Please advise the US Consul-General and Ambassador with the names of the detainees you want to bring to Canada. You may by-pass your MPs in doing this. The Gitmo Camp is not like the detention camps the Dominion and Crown created in 1914 (War Measures Act) to incarcerate Ukrainians...forced labor. Corporations benefited greatly! These "exigent" situations taken by the Dominion and The Empire taught the Americans to take in the Japanese-Americans in 1942. Just as Canada in 1942 also. Forced labor in Canada, in places like Spirit Lake, Banff, Jasper, Lethbridge and numerous other cities in Quebec is indeed unlike that of Gitmo where detainees are given the best in health care and ethnic foods as cous-cous. What care did these unfortunates who wanted to be a part of Canada and serve in the Armed Forces get? None... and many starved including women and children. Resultingly, many died. Indeed not, the situation is not like that of Gitmo! If circumstances warrant, the USA should build more facilities and run them fairly in accordance with international laws and without any form of subjugation for intelligence purposes. Malcolm McCallum in Florida.
  64. siren call from Canada writes: charlie brown from Canada writes: Siren. My point, which you state you could not follow, was: was any anyone murdered in Gitmo?
    .............................

    I don't know.
    Do you?

    We have reports of people murdered in Bagram, Afghanistan and in Abu Ghraib, Iraq.

    So my guess is, the answer to your question is very likely, yes.

    Certainly we know, even from this article, that incarcerated people have killed themselves.
  65. siren call from Canada writes: Festina Lente from Tampa Bay, United States writes: Gitmo, reflects state of the arts in securing dangerous terrorist criminals!
    ..............................

    If you had actually read the article you would know that your premise is wrong.

    As for building more Gitmos and running them "in accordance with international law" then the new Gitmos would be nothing like the current Gitmo.

    Odd that the couscous is so delicious that many inhabitants of Guantanamo have attempted suicide through not eating.
  66. siren call from Canada writes: "The US army has banned the publication of four cartoons drawn by Sami al-Hajj, the Al Jazeera cameraman held in the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay, according to his lawyer.

    The pieces, called Sketches of My Nightmare, include a drawing depicting al-Hajj, who has been on hunger strike for eight months, as a skeleton being force fed by US guards."

    http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DDAA8ED2-368A-4029-9408-7DC97847233F.htm
  67. Festina Lente from Tampa Bay, United States writes: Siren Call from Canada: I did indeed read all five pages of the report from a biased Canadian with an Arabic name. Cous-Cous is indeed an Arabic dish and it is one of my favorites. Chicken or lamb with chick peas?

    There will likely be other facilities made in Gitmo with even more enhanced bells and whistles.

    You did not address if you wanted any of these detainees in Canada or not since they are not welcomed in their own countries. You will note that once again the US should and will not use forced subjugation to gain faulty intelligence. Our next president will see to that. So Mr Siren Call, I did read the article and I wish you well. Malcolm McCallum in Florida. PS:

    You made no comment on the imprisonment and forced labor of Canadian Ukrainians by the War Acts of 1914 which set the example for the Americans to incarcerate in camps Japanese/Americans in 1942 just as Canada did also. I wanted to compare and contrast these "detentions" with the Gitmo detainees and the fairness of Canadian and American posters putting down Guantanamo.
  68. siren call from Canada writes: Festina Lente, no one's calling you on couscous.

    You did not address if you wanted any of these detainees in Canada or not since they are not welcomed in their own countries. Not particularly, as damaged as the innocent likely are. I'm not thrilled with taking in so many Iraqi refugees, not because of any problem with Iraqis per se, but because war refugees are so difficult to accommodate.

    We agree, Guantanamo is a disaster.

    You made no comment on the imprisonment and forced labor of Canadian Ukrainians by the War Acts of 1914 which set the example for the Americans to incarcerate in camps Japanese/Americans in 1942 just as Canada did also. I wanted to compare and contrast these "detentions" with the Gitmo detainees and the fairness of Canadian and American posters putting down Guantanamo

    The better idea might be to decry all such forced imprisonments. Horrible an idea as it was to incarcerate Ukrainian and Japanese Canadians -- we didn't torture them.

    POW camps were built for German soldiers here also, and again, no reports of torture or abuse.
  69. Festina Lente from Tampa Bay, United States writes: Make tortue to read torture!
  70. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: charlie brown writes, "Andre and Hap. You ignore the fact that America is a vibrant democracy with lots of checks and balances. The American public is just as aware about what is going on it Gitmo as we are and just as, if not more, concerned about it." A great point to make, since my references come from US sources like Chicago Public Radio's "This American Life" which none of the vigilantes on this blog will listen to nor read, much like the actual contents of the original Globe article.

    Some of the British detainees mentioned in the two episodes, "Habeas Schmabeas" and "Habeas Schmabeas 2007", have launched a civil action against the UK government.

    http://cbs2chicago.com/national/Guantanamo.Bay.lawsuit.2.704048.html

    Sabin Willett, who is mentioned as defending some Uighurs pro bono, was a supporter of Mitt Romney and is now working for the McCain campaign.
  71. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: All these babbling opinions on Gitmo and all being self-righteously spewed by people who have never been there.
  72. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: True, the Gitmo types tend to be raving lunatics.

    But, what to do with them?

    We cannot put them to the sword, but the Muslims can.

    Ship them back to Afghanistan, and placed under their Law.

    Personally, I prefer the axe. Best Regards.
  73. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: This is not a liberal or conservative issue. It is a matter of principle. For the West to claim the moral high ground in its fight against extremism, it must act according to its principles. This means the application of Habius Corpus (a quaint little notion going back about 800 years) and an end to indefinate detention without charge. It means fair and open trials, like the ones the Nazis and Japanese got at the end of WW 2, where a person can challenge the evidence brought against them. It means no torture, which, aside from debasing both victim and interegator, is likely useless as an intelligence gathering technique.

    The US officials who run the the place admit that most of the people being held there are likely innocent of anything other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time. The only sane question can be how can this place be shut down as quick as possible?

    The detention of Ukrainian and Japanese Canadians is a stain on the history of our nation, as Gitmo is and will be a stain on the US.
  74. Nathan Weatherdon from Canada writes: I do beleive that there is some legitimacy to the claim that many US citizens want the US to be a leader in promoting democracy around the world by actively getting invovled in conflcits.

    Guantanamo is a constant assualt on the notion that the US has any legitimate moral authority in the world.

    This is quite easily illustrated early on in the article. The US armed forces that represent their Christian country have claimed pride to be the virtue of the week, while their holy book condones humility, charity for the poor. My guess is that was the desired effect of including that, and I wholeheartedly agree that what is going on there is diametrically opposed to what is right.

    I think Bush might even do time for it. Not through the ICC, it should be his own people who reject such barbarity as leadership.
  75. nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: charlie brown: totally innocent detainees were murdered at baghram air base in afghanistan and also at abu ghraib in iraq. is it really such a stretch to suggest it could happen at gitmo and that steps need to be taken to prevent it? if it is possible that some of the detainees at gitmo are indeed innocent -and given the size of the bribes the CIA was offering for any "taliban" or "al-qaeda" prisoners, it would surely be evident to any person who understands the concept of shifting loyalties that it is possible- then you have to conclude that the system of detaining and trying prisoners at gitmo is inadequate at best and a complete denial of the american tradition of respect for the rule of law above all other considerations at worst. to allow the whole thing to drag on and on is playing right into al-qaeda's hands. why are we so quick to prove Osama Bin Laden correct about all the things he says about the west- that our belief in human rights is conveniently flexible when violently opposed by a weaker force for example.
    the issues surrounding torture aren't about them and their values. they are about us and our values.
  76. nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: -A military welcome sign down the road proclaims that the "value of the week" is "Pride."-

    isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?
  77. siren call from Canada writes: nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: -A military welcome sign down the road proclaims that the "value of the week" is "Pride."-
    isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?
    .............................

    I think that's peculiar to Catholics.

    The American military has its own religious organizations.
  78. Hap Stokes from Port Alberni BC, Canada writes: Globe Insider subscriber content
    charlie brown from Canada writes: Andre and Hap. You ignore the fact that America is a vibrant democracy with lots of checks and balances.

    You should have used the 'past tense'!--Before paranoia set in and then the country fell under another spell of FEAR not seen since the McCarthy era where innocents were accused of being Communists. And even put to death or deported. Even the daughter of a socialist (duly elected) in Canada was accused and I think arrested (temporarily) by those seeking to fight those awful terrorists back in the 50's.

    Before that it was the Japanese, before them the Jews that were the enemy. Today our new enemy is the Muslims. Who's next Charlie B?
  79. martha stewart from Canada writes: siren call from Canada writes: nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: -A military welcome sign down the road proclaims that the "value of the week" is "Pride."-
    isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?
    .............................

    I think that's peculiar to Catholics.

    The American military has its own religious organizations.

    --------------

    Hmmm... "Pride"... and they parade around a lot. Don't tell.
  80. Greg Ohio from Cleveland, United States writes: "They're not prisoners and this isn't a prison." Correct. They're kidnapping victims and Gitmo is a crime scene.
  81. siren call from Canada writes: martha stewart from Canada writes:
    Hmmm... "Pride"... and they parade around a lot. Don't tell.
    .........................

    Heh. Don't ask!

    But I was referring more to this:

    Among the incidents highlighted in the report were fliers that advertised a screening of "The Passion of the Christ" at every seat in the dining hall, more than 250 people at the academy signing an annual Christmas message in the base newspaper that said that "Jesus Christ is the only real hope for the world" and an atheist student who was forbidden to organize a club for "Freethinkers."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/politics/23academy.html
  82. charlie brown from Canada writes: Actually Hap, the few folks McCarthy accused of being Communists admitted it later. You might be getting that mixed up with House Unamerican Activities investigation of which McCarthy was not a part. McCarthy was an aberration, brought to heal in months by the democratic process. The folks put to death (the Rosenburg (sp?) atomic spies) were convicted of treason in open, democratic court. The Canadian politician you mention, I think, was Tommy Douglas (of eugenics fame). Methinks Hap that you might be the one suffering from paranoia. Things are not really that bad. Take a valium or a good stiff drink and relax.
  83. Alastair james Berry from Nanaimo BC CANADA, Canada writes: Gitmo does not really shed what could be called a 'favourable light' on the USA.

    The Gitmo pix along with some from Abu Ghraib, have, in effect, given the USA A RATHER DISFIGURING BLACK EYE.
  84. Hopeless Wonder from Hamilton, Canada writes: Perhaps there is a place needed such as Gitmo, but I do agree with what

    Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada speaks of "Unlimited detention without trial or charge, denial of habeas corpus, renditions, making up new terms (unlawful combatant) to circumvent international treaties (Geneva Conventions), all of that is over the top and looking down a slippery slope.
    The line in the sand is there for a purpose. Once you cross that line, who is to say where or when to stop, whether or not to draw a new line, and if so where to draw it and who should draw it?'"

    Who is Bush to say or change the Geneva Conventions of the past. Is he better than any other country that got assaulted by these terrorists group cells. We know that 9/11 happened but other countries too have been assaulted does it give them the right to detain, without trial. Should there not be a dialogue at the League of Nations Security Council to review new guides and procedures. Just a thought.
  85. Hope Springs Eternal from Canada writes: I applaud Omar El Akkad for his informative article. It should be required reading for those who still value democracy and the rule of law.

    Unlike many other commentators, I don't feel any compulsion to debate whether the detainees are are detainees or prisoners, guilty or not guilty, soldiers or non-combatants, terrorists or liberationists. Long before that I was reminded of Orwell and Kafka.

    The US military offers no explanation as to why the detainees are being detained - simply that they are detainees, who might never be charged, or if they were charged what laws that might apply. There was no sense that anyone could imagine let alone any forthcoming resolution. Just a sense that the captors were as powerless to move forward as were the detainees, that moral substance didn't exist there.

    There are no rules there, no democracy, no justice, nothing in fact but shame on all of us who consider ourselves more deserving of all those things than whomever we consider the detainees to be.