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Is Afghanistan worth it? A brigadier general answers

DENNIS TABBERNOR

Special to Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 3:03 AM EDT 30/04/08

'The answer is, absolutely yes,' a brigadier general writes ...Read the full article

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  1. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: I noticed that DENNIS TABBERNOR doesn't mention the record poppy/heroin production last year ... enough to supply all the worlds addicts for 1 1/2 years.

    Bonus surplus!!
  2. siren call from Canada writes: Actually, the 'terror of 9/11 was born and bred in the lawless' and interventionary practices of American/UK foreign policy in the regions of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Palestine and elsewhere.

    But good to know we are building up a military composed of some of the fiercest fighters on earth.

    I think that's how we brought peace and reconciliation to Germany and Japan after WWII, no? By concentrating on their militaries?
  3. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    ' .... The terror of 9/11 was born and bred in the lawless vacuum that was Afghanistan ...'

    15 of the 19 terrorists of the 9/11 plot were Saudi, remaining 4 were Egyptians. No Afghani.

    The Afghani problems are the result of the neglect post-Soviet debacle. That is when the US abandoned Afghanistan with 1,000,000 dead and as many landmines.

    The improvement in Afghanistan has little to do with the Canadian presence whose sole purpose is to guard the poppy fields and the Socal pipeline. There will be greater and faster improvement if the Nato forces left Afghanistan, and concentrated on economic development.

    The Talibs are not idiots. If they see improvements in living conditions, they would welcome even the Devil. But they see through Nato designs more clearly than the Canadians do. The Talibs had negotiated a better pipeline deal with their earlier enemies the Russians, and have not forgotten how the CIA moved in to exploit them again with Mr. Karzai, a Unocal lobbyist.
  4. Globe Insider subscriber content
    Bernard Bomers from Canada writes: I think it is worth it to political and armed forces careerists in the short term.

    Think thirty years, to perhaps accomplish even twenty percent of what is lauded as a 'goal' in this article.

    Feelgood stuff. Worthy of 'aspiration'.

    Canadian Native population's children can look to maybe half the expected lifetime of any 'other' descendants of European or other more recent 'immigrants'.

    Unaffordable urban housing conditions for the many?.

    Billions of dollars for 'Toys for the Boys'?

    Afghanistan? No questions asked.

    Army employment opportunities for disadvantaged Maritimers and similar others deprived of alternatives: bring them on!
  5. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Correction to my last post: Unocal pipeline, not Socal pipeline. Sorry.
  6. Sam Barns from moncton, Canada writes: Another terrible piece in support of the war.

    There is a large body of media reports and academic studies that contradict almost everything this author says.

    He ignores the sectarianism in Afghanistan. The drugs. The militias on all sides. The lack of genuine civil liberties. The growing strength of the insurgency. The torture. The humanitarian crisis. The total failure of aid and reconstruction work. And so on.

    Same old propaganda and white man civilization talk.

    The response to 911 must be political: no more US wars in the Middle East; end the occupation of Palestine; no more US support for dictators across the Asian continent.

    The war on terror was flawed from the start and we have no useful role in Afghanistan.
  7. Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: Well said General. But as you can see from the comments above, there is simply no pleasing some people. Clearly they have never known privation, hunger, starvation or seen their loved ones killed in front of them or their country torn apart to the point where all is hopeless. Never mind General, the people making the decisions know what it is all about and you put it well. Keep up the good work. Perseverance will pay off in the end notwithstanding the sniping from the great unwashed.
  8. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes:

    'no pleasing some people. Clearly they have never known privation, hunger, starvation or seen their loved ones killed in front of them or their country torn apart to the point where all is hopeless.'

    How dare you assume I have never experienced any of the above, you clearly don't know me or any of the other commentors.

    have you known any of these character building experiences Bill, if not, what makes you qualified to comment on this topic, other that the fact that you are obviously a neocon war monger?
  9. Alastair james Berry from Nanaimo BC CANADA, Canada writes:
    If Canadian troops remain stalemated in Afghanistan in ten years time and the World's economy is in a depression will it still 'BE WORTH IT?' We already have a 'soup kitchen' in Nanaimo and our mills are bankrupt, closed or on short time.

    How long can Canada afford to pour vast amounts of scarce assets into the dry rocks of Afghanistan for miniimal or no benefit or reward?

    The Taleban were ousted and a democratic government installed(i.e. the original objectives achieved, 100%) within the first year, and I feel it was foolish for Western Troops to remain back then, and I still do today! We are seven years into this adventure now.
  10. Jim Cohoon from Chilliwack, Canada writes: If sincere, the general's idealism regarding the West's role in Afghanistan is commendable. Idealism is vital to the maintenance (if not spreading) of the best of 'Western values'. But whether that idealism is compatible with the broader reality of the war in Afghanistan (or Iraq for that matter) is another question. For example, as others have pointed out, 9/11 was triggered primarily by events outside Afghanistan -- namely (as bin Laden himself made clear) by the permanent deployment of US military bases in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. An unwillingness to see Western historical causes behind Muslim discontent, including apparently permanent 'occupation' by Western armies on Muslim lands (now of course including Iraq and Afghanistan) is typical of the self-delusion (honest or contrived) that continues to weaken the West's ability to effectively deal with the reality of the Middle East in general. The West does have the potential to bring positive contributions to the Middle East, including Afghanistan. But our idealism will only be effective and lasting if it is accompanied, not mainly by armies (and their propaganda arms), but by an honest realism about who we are, who they are and how we all came to be in this war in the first place.
  11. siren call from Canada writes: I'm sure Brigadier General Dennis Tabbernor is doing a highly commendable job in mentoring, training, equipping the Afghan Army. I have read that it is a much more effective force than the highly problematic Afghan Police.

    Does anyone see a problem with equipping an army when the civilian leadership is at best weak and at worst corrupt beyond the imaginings of most of us?

    I do believe the Soviets left behind an improved fighting force once they withdrew.
  12. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Typical stuff from one of these threads..... some of you are really sad, you haven't changed your pap in almost a year.... same old, same old.

    Did anybody... anybody read the sincerity in the Generals words? Did anyone get it?
    No he didn't list the negatives... other than he feels nothing is worth a human life. Maybe he should have included those things..... but he didn't.

    For those that put it back to the US and Soviets... so what? The past is the past... Are you all about blaming instead of fixing? What's wrong with you?

    You people are exactly why I stay on the sports threads... far more intelligent life.
  13. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: One last thing.... when did we declare war on Afghanistan? It's not a war fools.... it's security. Lookup war in the dictionary.
  14. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Bill Thompson- Is it that the glistening chevrons on your military vest have blinded you? The lies that continue to flow through the media, government, and military sources are abominable. All the needless civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. Someone is responsible for their spilled blood. Opium and oil.
    Some of the testimonies of soldiers are arising on utube. US soldiers question why, and don't want to be there. They know they shouldn't be there. Were getting some leaving the military and coming to Canada now. Is there a slight chance Bill that we might be wrong by being there?
  15. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: Brigadier General Dennis Tabbernor, you are naiive beyond belief; your attempt to connect a small group of itinerant terrorists with an entire country and a long history of superpower meddling is pathetic. Trust me, you are breeding future terrorists, not stopping them.
    Bill Thompson, you are both rude and arrogant. Apparently you hold anyone in contempt who has an opinion that differs from your own.
  16. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Alastair james Berry - There is benefit and reward- Arms dealers, pharmaceutical companies, military contractors, backroom dealers, stock and shareholders(maybe politicians) invested in these companies.

    So as you can see for the ones making the decisions on the war there can be huge financial return. But can they sleep at night?
  17. Duncan Munro from Canada writes:
    What else could the general say?

    Could he say: 'The mission is a failure and we should get out', or 'gee I wish I could go and play golf like Rick Hillier, because this is complete waste of my time and your tax dollars'? Or 'yeah I was rooting for the Reds in the 1980s, but they lost and now we're stuck here fighting the same bunch of fanatics...'
  18. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Duncan Munro;

    He could have included some of the negatives that are happening over there.... but it wouldn't have turned off the BS that has been typed above... nothing will appease those clowns.
  19. Mary Maguire from United States writes: He could have said nothing at all....

    If there's one post-9/11 action that everyone (almost everyone?!) agrees on, it's the war in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda and their supporters, the Taliban. To argue that 9/11 was not a product of Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan is ridiculous. There's a reason why Saudis (including Osama Bin Laden) had to leave Saudi Arabia in order to accomplish their goals.
  20. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Scot Loucks- Why don't you enter into the conversation or head back to your sports as you promised?
  21. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Mary Maguire.... what war in Afghanistan?

    REV.. still on 4 of them... not a lot of conversation going on .... still smarter than your 19 year old.. high school.. conspiracy theory comment.

    Cheers
  22. KC Jones from Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: 'Typical stuff from one of these threads..... some of you are really sad, you haven't changed your pap in almost a year.... same old, same old.You people are exactly why I stay on the sports threads... far more intelligent life.'
    People like you are the cause of much of what ails this world ,you have your head buried in the sports page or tuned to some silly sitcom. Get your head out of your butt, you will never find anything important in the sports section. But stay there if you must.
  23. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Oh and REV... what conversation? None here.... just the same people saying the same things..... has been going on for years.

    Cheers
  24. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: KC Jones;

    I said I spend my time on the sports threads..... I didn't say I didn't read anything else.

    In fact you quoted me on that very thing when I stated I have read the same pap for over a year.

    Try some reading comprehension KC before attacking people.

    Cheers
  25. Duncan Munro from Canada writes:
    I suppose the general could also have told us why Canada spends more on supporting a 2500 strong battlegroup, than Afghanistan spends on its entire military, and why NATO spends more on the ISAF than the entire GNP of Afghanistan...C'mon, this is insane and for a fraction of this sum we could create a large enough ANA, to end any reason for a western military presence in Afghanistan, and with it, the probable end of the war.
  26. Ruth Walker from Edmonton, Canada writes: Dennis Tabbernor offers a well-crafted article that completely ignores an entire herd of elephants in the room.

    You would think that one thing Nato could pull off is training an army, so it is great to hear something has worked out reasonably well.

    But so long as poverty drives the people to dangerous religious delusions, Nato will be stuck in Afghanistan.

    At least the General did not bring up little girls going to school, nor did he deny that poverty-stricken, uneducated Afghan women have the same human rights as cattle.

    Let us agree to measure progress in Afghanistan in terms of the universal human rights enshrined in their constitution, in terms of universal education, in terms of economic opportunity for the Afghan people.

    These are ideals that make sense to Canadians, but they are very different from the ideals Gen. Tabbernor chooses to emphasize.
  27. Ab Irato from Montreal, Canada writes: Brigadier General Dennis Tabbernor,

    If the Afghan Army was powerful enough to beat the Soviets (they had their parade in Kabul on Sunday, 16th anniversary) then why can't they defeat the Taleban?

    Also, why didn't you mention Saudi Arabia as a hotbed of terror activity in the region? 15 of 19 hijackers came from there yet we've never thought twice about bringing democracy/regim change there. Au contraire, the US gave them a $20 billion arms package last year.

    Finally, why has the US state department never classified the Taleban as a terror group?

    Answer all those questions for me and I'd like to see how loudly your unequivocal 'yes' echoes through time.
  28. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Come on Duncan.... One Canadian soldier if making more that 10 afghans combined.... that comparison is lame.

    Cost of living, average yearly salary, money in general can not be compared to the 1st world.

    If the Afghan army aren't trained as professionals..... all you do is open up the door to Anarchy.

    As I said ... lame.

    Cheers
  29. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: The General -- who has been there -- is to be believed. The armchair critics and buffoons are to be laughed at.

    I just can't get over how many of these blowhards base their opinions on 'facts' that are just plain wrong.
  30. martha stewart from Canada writes: Absolutely not.

    Sure its good for generals and the military industrial complex. And, of course, the drug dealers that we are now protecting. The rest is BS.

    I see he mentioned 9-11 twice in the first 4 paragraphs.

    Blah, blah, blah.
  31. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Ruth Walker; I agree with your conclusion... I disagree with your argument.

    First off the General did mention girls going to school. I also think the General did a good job of emphasizing that the majority of Afghans are living in a much better situation than they were for the past 30 years.

    What he needed to do was discuss the problems they are having with the 'minority' of Afghans.

    Cheers
  32. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Ab Irato from Montreal, Canada writes: Brigadier General Dennis Tabbernor,

    If the Afghan Army was powerful enough to beat the Soviets (they had their parade in Kabul on Sunday, 16th anniversary) then why can't they defeat the Taleban?

    =======================

    Ab... as you well know there was no Afghan army defeating the soviets... it was the US backed Mujahideen.... and the Northern Alliance... and you also know why the Talban rose to power.

    Nice try though.
  33. Ab Irato from Montreal, Canada writes: Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: The General -- who has been there -- is to be believed. The armchair critics and buffoons are to be laughed at.

    I just can't get over how many of these blowhards base their opinions on 'facts' that are just plain wrong.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Considering that this armchair critic pays tax dollars that fund this nonsense rather than spending it here in Canada where it's needed, you can laugh all you want.

    The General is to be believed? Yeah sure because the military always tells us the truth right? Maybe you missed the line at the top of the story that reads 'WEB-EXCLUSIVE COMMENT'.....not fact.
  34. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: So Ab you disagree because it is costing us money??

    Your tax dollars so you are upset?

    How about all the 'free' money we send to Africa and other 3rd world countries... countries where there is no accoutablility?...

    We actually have accountability in Afghanistan...

    Your argument doesn't wash.

    Cheers
  35. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: btw Ab;

    If you couldn't read the sincerity in the Generals words you either need a course in reading comprehension or just admit you are a paid troll. Nothing will ever convince you that we should be there... as an international force... trying to save a devastated country.
  36. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Typical stuff from one of these threads..... some of you are really sad, you haven't changed your pap in almost a year.... same old, same old.

    You people are exactly why I stay on the sports threads... far more intelligent life.

    intelligent scot? like the habs fans rioting the other day??

    real smart group you hang out with there scot.
  37. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Martha, REV, Siren Call... where did you all go? Expert Eel.... where did you go?

    Can't spout your pap when there is someone here with an IQ over 100?

    Typical.
  38. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks If you could read sincerity in the Generals words you either need a course in reading comprehension or just admit you are a paid troll. Nothing will ever convince you that we shouldn't be there... as a farce... trying to boost an oil industry.

    because all I read in the general's words was the same unquestioning, unalanytical, disguised as patriotism, mindless rhetoric that I have been hearing since September 12th 2001.
  39. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: scot, scot, where did you go?

    accuse me of leaving then leave huh?

    typical of an uninformed blinders-on neocon warmonger.
  40. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Typical stuff from one of these threads..... some of you are really sad, you haven't changed your pap in almost a year.... same old, same old.

    translation:

    Gee, too bad that I am the first Con hack in this thread, I guess that it's my job to use hypocricy to disrupt any logical thoughts and discussion and try to discredit any of these Lib posters at the bidding of my neocon masters who forbid any opposition or questioning of their indominable will.
  41. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks cannot have a decent conversation without resorting to insults, well no matter as many right wing neocon warmongers seem to have the same disfunctional problem.
  42. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: resorting to insults is the last refuge of the incopmpetent, scot
  43. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: calls me an idiot then runs away like a scared little coward.

    typical.
  44. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Expert Eel.... lol... I'm a con hack?????????????

    What does that make you? You never have anything new to say. You repeat the same old Baaaaa all the time. Sheep maybe. You don't read with any comprehension... you attack lot a neutered Rottweiler.

    Go attack somebody at your own IQ level... might I suggest my hamster.
  45. Duncan Munro from Canada writes:
    Canada built an Army from scratch, starting in 1939 that in 4 years was fighting and beating the best that Nazi Germany could put into the field. However, after 7 years and insane amounts of money being spent by the USA and the ISAF the ANA is still a joke...and cannot fight the Taliban, who have no industrial base, and subsist on a minute fraction of the resources that even the ANA has access to. According to the good general there is no end in sight to this situation.

    The average Cdn private receives $6500/month in Afghanistan, which is equivalent to the base pay of an entire ANA company. Considering that Afghanistan has over 5 million men of military age, our efforts to recruit, train and equip the ANA have been pathetically incompetent, and contrasts very strangely to the efforts of the Mujahadeen, Taliban, and the Army of the Afghani Socialists, which were able to fight and win without this kind of support.
  46. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Hey scot, I noticed that you are too cowardly to sign up and fight in Afghanistan for the masters that you love so unconditionally.
  47. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Whatever EEL.

    You don't have conversations... I have read these threads for years... just chose not to post anymore.

    You have an opinion that you are not willing to change... you post it all the time. You don't post under a real name..... you hide.

    I have about as much respect for your opinion as I do about a gnat.

    Nice try calling me a Con Hack though... matches up well with all my posts on the political threads.

    Try reading and retaining.

    Cheers
  48. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes:

    Go attack somebody at your own IQ level... might I suggest my hamster.

    It does not surprise me in the least that you own a Hamster scot, do you also own a roll of duct tape to go with that little hamster?
  49. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: sick freak?
  50. Chode Mcblob from Canada writes: How the USA triggered this entire mess, nearly 30 years ago:
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html and started a war that consumed the lives of millions of people and has kept Afghanistan rooted in feudalism ever since, and despite their touching concern for women's right now, have ensured that women will never be emancipated in Afghanistan, nor will the fundamental problems of land reform and an end to the feudal system ever be tackled, without which the war will never end.
  51. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Whatever EEL.

    I have about as much respect for your opinion as I do about a gnat.

    Well scot, I respect your opinion, but I am still waiting for you to tell me (without using B.S. 911 rhetoric) as to why staying in afghnistan is worth it to Canada.

    waiting

    waiting

    still waiting.

    you done with that hamster yet scot?
  52. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Duncan... good comment....but you suggest our efforts to recruit have been inadequate... I ask you why?

    They initially were underpaying both the army and the police. I'm pretty sure that problem has been addressed.

    Expert Eel... too cowardly to sign up? Nice. Typical.

    I'm 51 years old with bad knees ... and had you actually read and understood some of my previous posts you would know that I have family and friends over there.

    read and comprehend.... a little too much for you EEL.... go talk to your toilet.
  53. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes:

    Expert Eel... I'm 51 years old with bad knees

    A HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

    LOL LOL LMFAO!!!

    how did you get those bad knees scot?
    trying to please your masters a little too much?
  54. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: BTW scot, don't expect me to go easy on you because you are old and decrepid.

    That's what you get for calling me a jerk and an idiot without justification.
  55. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: EEL... we actually agree on something.

    9/11 has nothing to do with Canada being in Afghanistan.

    Canada is there as part of Nato in order to rebuild a country that has been decimated over the last 30 years.... Ever read a book called the Kite Runner? Fiction I know... but it gives you an idea about what Afghanistan was all about prior to the Soviet invasion.

    The US against Russia crippled the country and left it wide open for the Northern Alliance.... brutal regime that opened the door for the Taliban.

    The Taliban were even more brutal.... letting Bin Laden use their grounds for training... hence the US attack after 9/11.

    History as it was.... now Nato is in there trying to right all those wrongs... how is that bad?

    Cheers for asking a good question.
  56. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: EEL... I still play hockey twice a week.... in over 21 leagues... I expect no sympathy... you asked me a question and I answered it.

    As for the hamster insinuation.... nice try again.

    Try offering something intelligent... it is probably outside your realm... but concentrate.
  57. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: EEL... we actually agree on something.

    9/11 has nothing to do with Canada being in Afghanistan.

    The US against Russia crippled the country and left it wide open for the Northern Alliance.... brutal regime that opened the door for the Taliban.

    The Taliban were even more brutal.... letting Bin Laden use their grounds for training... hence the US attack after 9/11.

    Interesting points there scot, and definetly not in the post 911 rhetoric category, but I still don't see how it is worth it for Canada to be in afghanistan cleaning up the USSR & US mess.

    Also I think that I made a very good point about heroin at the brginning of this thread that has not been addressed .. yet.
  58. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: EEL... I still play hockey twice a week.... in over 21 leagues... I expect no sympathy... you asked me a question and I answered it.

    good, good, hockey can be a good thing, but pleading that you can't go to afghanistan because you have bad knees and then claiming to play in a hockey league twice a week does not strengthen your 'I can't fight in afghanistan because of bad knees' excuse.
  59. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Conversation time.... nice :)

    Canada is part of Nato and we accepted our role. Plain and simple on that one. To renege on that would be to leave Nato.... not a good plan with our depleted armed forces (Trudeau started it).

    As for their drug production... I have long been a proponent of selling the poppies legally... there is a shortage of opium based drugs in the world....

    For that I blame the US and their stupid war on drugs.

    Little story for you... On the eve of Prince Charles and Diana's wedding I was busted in Pickering with a quarter pound of weed. Three extra ounces that I was sharing with my friends.

    I was only charged with possesion and fined $200.

    The States will no longer allow me across their border.... 30 years later... I'm such a criminal.

    Cheers
  60. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: EEl;;; we will ( i hope ) cut the ball busting after this one.

    I actually applied (i have been unemployed for the last 4 months) to the armed forces as I am a computer programmer/Systems analyst.

    You still have to pass the physical..... same in the US I believe.

    Cheers....to no more shots... we were attempting a conversation.
  61. Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: OK scott, maybe you are not such a bad guy after all, I will have to double check with your hamster to know for sure.

    sorry about your bust, you wouldn't want to go to the US anyway, it is really skanky and dirty there, not to mention crime ridden (despite the fact that they have the greatest prison population on the planet, maybe the wrong people are in prison).

    I still feel as though Canada is wasting it's time and money in Afghanistan, but would like you to know that I have changed my position many times in the past when proved wrong or convinced otherwise, I like to consider muself open minded and considerate of new thoughts and ideas.

    That's why I lurk around in here.
  62. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Fair comment EEL.

    I am firmly behind my friends and relative over there... they suggest that we are doing good things.... I like the glass half full approach.

    I really do read most of the threads (unemployed) but gave up on commenting over a year ago.... too many same old same old comments. (hence my attack).

    I hate when people call it a war... it isn't. Canada has just stepped up to the plate and said we are willing to sacrifice to make a difference.Proud of that... it's been a long time. IMHO anyway.

    Cheers
  63. Duncan Munro from Canada writes:
    Here's a touching hearts and minds story from Afghanistan:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/newsbeat/newsid_7373000/7373924.stm
    Note where the poverty stricken Afghani migrant worker makes a living...it seems that the old 'war on drugs' has been replaced with a 'war for drugs'
  64. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Duncan... your link didn't work.

    Cheers
  65. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: Take that back Duncan.... my copy didn't work... reading it. :)
  66. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Scot Loucks- Tell us where you stand on this matter. Do you make any money, or political gain off of Canada's evil occupation in Afghanistan. I ask because you just never know who is on the other side of these posts and what their motives may be.

    Oh yeah and many of the conspiracies that you and many others call theories are indeed facts. I admit I did not believe certain conspiracies, that certain governments could actually be involved with evil plots. But after digging deeper realizing I was wrong. For example that the Bush goverment was invading Iraq for oil or other purposes other than WMDs. Boy was I naive. Look up Jekyll Island and the Fed reserve, unless you know it all already.
  67. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Scot Loucks- You say Canada has just stepped up to the plate to make a difference. Go talk with your MP see what He/She says why we are in Afghanistan. I have. If it is just to make a difference why are we not in Darfur? Curious what your occupation is Scot. Are you in the military? What facility did you get your brainwashed at?
  68. Scot Loucks from Pickering, Canada writes: REV.... Computer programmer/Systems analyst... just got a new contract as senior systems architect on the biggest project I have ever worked on.

    Serious challenge after being out of work for 4 months.

    The only reason we aren't in Dafur is because we don't have the resources.... thank Pierre for that.. he started the downward spiral.... that has only recently starting moving upwards.

    As for conspiracy theories and the US.. well first off Afghanistan and Iraq are two different things... second we are are part of Nato... not the Iraq mess.

    Cheers
  69. Russell Barth from Nepean, Canada writes: Our government is doing a grave disservice by tricking our troops into thinking that this war is in any way winnable. It isn't, and to think otherwise is folly.

    The good mane and women who throw their lives at this war should be honored for their commitment, but they have been duped by their leaders. It is a scam.
  70. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: Gen Tabbernor , begins by lying about the forces behind 9/11 . They were not born and bred in Afghanistan , but in Saudi Arabia, kicked out of there into Sudan, and kicked out of Sudan, went to Afghanistan .As to the Generals second point ,Afghanistan is currently a terrorist training base, and will continue to be .General Tabbernor should realize that when he writes the national press , he should tell the truth .I don't know if the rest of the article is true or not,but I doubt it , and the witness has alreday given plenty of reasons to discount his testimony .I guess the General is unused to people who don't just salute and say 'Yes Sir' to whatever he says .I hope he's a better soldier than he is a propogandist.
  71. Misery Lastname from Barrie, Canada writes: Tis like asking the fox how the hen's are doing. The Taliban had stopped poppy growing. The women are still covered from head to toe. The government only controls Kabul. Strange our bases are strategically placed along the pipe line route. our soldiers r no match for the fierce fighters of afghanistan. So the brig thinks wallpapering a few schools n filling them with children makes for progress.. BTW: putting the children at risk also. How many kids have we blown up cause the 'enemy used them as shields' Just think how many canadians have been involved in so called collateral damage. how much money had been paid out to civilians for the slaughter of their loved one. no matter whose wives n children they are. But oh yes,,it was the enemies fault for putting there loved ones in harms way, wot a crock.
    and BTW: if the government is so intent on sending our young people off to die in some godforsaken country, at least they should make sure they have all the amenities of life, and stop begging the public to send them care packages every day. I am ex military so don't tell me I no nothing of wot i speak. So lets have no more children in schools stories and quit trying to wall paper the public.
  72. Globe Insider subscriber content
    R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    The general writes,'The terror of 9/11 was born and bred in the lawless vacuum that was Afghanistan..'....'If we fail here,...we will invite back the forces that spawned 9/11.

    With all respect to the good General and his profession, a good General does not necessarily make a world geopolitics expert.

    First and foremost, his premise mentioned above,'The terror of 9/11 was born and bred in the lawless vacuum that was Afghanistan,' while some tiny truth, is at best, terrribly flawed.

    The good General makes it sound as if Afghanistan is the end all-be all to stop terrorism. Win there-problem ended! I have in previous threads posted a list of at least 20 other countries where some form of 'terrorist training-activities' are present and not necessarily all under the Al Qada flag-but the common Muslim jihad anti western flag.

    The Canadian media has distorted the Afghanistan picture, and if one peruses Asian, European, UK, and American media, a very different picture comes to light.

    I'll say it again:
    Original Mission: Find OBL and destroy training camps.
    Morphed into: Invasion/War/Occupation/Nation Building

    Que Bono? Who gains? Follow the money....
    .
  73. The Guinea from mississauga, Canada writes: You are all boofoons!! 9-11 was an inside job and you just dont want to admit it.
  74. Globe Insider subscriber content
    L.B. MURRAY from Canada L.B. MURRAY from Canada from Canada writes: -
    R. Carriere writes : The Canadian media has distorted the Afghanistan picture, and if one peruses Asian, European, UK, and American media, a very different picture comes to light.
    _________________________

    Morning, R. Carriere. Perusing other media is quite the eye opener ! At least, the Globe and Mail provided us with some interesting news regarding the U.S. Marines in Afghanistan ... Did you see this piece by Doug Saunders ''U.S. brings Iraq-like surge to Afghan conflict''... Unfortunately, comments were not allowed... At least we know what General Dan McNeill wants regarding ''longer tours'' for our troops while the U.S. Marines are scheduled to go back to the U.S. after their seven-month ''surge''...

    -
  75. pierre lefebvre from Brossard, Canada writes: Have you ever heard a brigadier general say No more military operations? Army senior officers crave on active service. Military-industrial complex is the winner in all this. Lives of low ranking soldiers are lost and do same executives care? They are well sheltered.
  76. John Doucette from Manotick, Canada writes: Nice try Brigadier General Dennis but your arguments make no sense.
  77. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ab Irato: Greetings

    ' .... If the Afghan Army was powerful enough to beat the Soviets (they had their parade in Kabul on Sunday, 16th anniversary) then why can't they defeat the Taleban?...'

    The Afghan Army did not beat the Soviets. It was the Afghan Muj who beat the Afghan Army and their allies the Soviets.

    The Talibs are the southern remnants of the Muj who saw little Soviet action. The Russian came in from the north, and the main Soviet beating was done by the Northern Alliance of Ahmed Shah Massood in Northern Panjshir who got no or little arms from the US, and was murdered by the Talibs two days before 9/11.

    Cheers
  78. john chuckman from Canada writes: There is not even a viable national government in Afghanistan. No viable civil service. No viable national taxation. No viable national education. The place is in the 14th century, and nothing anyone can do in our lifetime will change that. And that fact does not suggest Afghanistan’s being a danger to any other people minding their own business. To say otherwise, as you do, is to paraphrase the most ignorant leader on earth, George Bush. Please remember, it was not the Taleban that attacked America. It was a small group of mainly Saudis. The Taleban government only demanded reasonable proof of bin Laden's guilt before extraditing him, a behavior that is exactly what you would expect in any advanced country at an extradition request. The U.S. refused and invaded the place, bombing the crap out of everyone, telling simple souls like you that they were going to change the society for women and other propaganda they haven't in the least succeeded at. They cannot even get the teachers paid in any part of the country, and new schools close as soon as they open. Women today almost everywhere still wear the burqa outside Kabul, and even in Kabul more than half wear it. No amount of money can change the fundamental beliefs and customs of a society in a short time. It is a ridiculous concept, ignorant of the experience of history. Only gradual economic growth will produce the change you blubber about, and that won't happen in our lifetime. Meanwhile you advocate squandering money there because George Bush and Dick Cheney say you should. With such fine gentlemen it is that you keep compan
  79. Comments closed, censored, deleted or made to disappear from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: 'So we went... If we fail...' --- Same old lament, same old blackmail that never amounted to the beginning of an argument. But on this topic, one must expect that a brigadier general will be more sentimental than rational: that goes with vested interests. In any case, wars (even 'wars'!) are not for brigadier generals to decide, but for the sovereign, i.e. WE the people. Brigadier generals will just do as we tell them, or else... That is called a democracy. In general, it compares favourably with military juntas.
  80. M Warren from Ottawa, Canada writes: No question that it is worth it to keep the Taliban from retaking the country, but too much effort is being put toward innately defensive strategies aimed at holding roads and cities at the expense of the countryside. The result will likely be much the same as after the Cambodian civil war ended in 1975, because the strategies being employed are exactly the same: 1000 US Marines on the Pakistan border & the destruction of farms, whatever they grow, will only force the Pashtun (in particular) deeper into the country & further marry the Pashtun tribal cause with that of the Taliban. That's exactly what happened after the similar US incursion of Cambodia 1970; they turned the Khmer Rouge from a group of obscure Maoist intellectuals to a widespread peasant revolt fed by anger in the villages which had been bombed and strafed. Family ties are strong; so coalition forces must be careful not to create 3 new Taliban for every one they terminate.
  81. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: I guess whether we should be there or not, is rather a moot point. We are there, pursuant to a UN order to NATO to do this thing. The issue now is, 'being there what do we do'? As this is an insurgency, I guess making things better for the locals is the way to win it. I'm a little uncomfortable with the influx of US forces hotfoot from doing so well in Iraq, and determined to show us all how the big boys do it, but what's to be done? Canada is a small fish. We can take on more responsibility or see the big fish do it for us. Not too sure what many here would have us do. Just leave? I'm not sure how that would make things better, particularly as, whether we like it or not, the Karzai govenment was duly elected, and polls indicate that the great majority of the population (even in Pushtan regions) want NATO to stay and win. But, I guess, Afghanistan is a faraway land about which we know nothing. Pretty sure as well that most of the critics fall into the category 'people you can never please'. Why are we in Afghanistan; why aren't we in Sudan (we, of course, meaning 'somebody else')?

    For those interested, BGen Tabernor is an Army Reservist. His 'vested interest' in the issue, therefore, is limited. If he believes the thing is important, and that it can be won, he probably believes it.
  82. Vivaldo Latoche from Ottawa, Canada writes: General Trabbernor your work and leadership in Afghanistan is appreciated. Of course, not everybody can recognize the sacrifices of our soldiers and our financial expenses. Why? Because we have a tendency to devalue good deeds that other Canadians perform abroad. Therefore, you should not be deterred by negative comments express here by few Canadians from the comfort of their homes.

    So you and your soldiers keep on doing what you do best for the people of Afghanistan. For they are the only ones who can account for your human endeavours to improve their social and economic conditions.
  83. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Expert Eel from OttaPettaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: ... How dare you assume I have never experienced any of the above, you clearly don't know me or any of the other commentors.
    _____________________

    You accuse a poster of judging you without knowing you. However, you have no issue with labelling the same poster (and others) a 'neocon warmonger' without clearly knowing them.

    Now then, have you 'experienced any of the above'? That remains uncertain to us. However, what is clear is that you are hypocritical.
  84. Richard Soley from writes: Bill Thompson is not alone in his support of this General and our mission in Afganistan. THe gutless comments from individuals that seem to have nothing but negative comments continues to be a false impression of the support our soldiers have from both the Afganistan people and here at home. If the uninformed and uninvolved individuals who are so quick to state facts about which they know little or nothing were involved politically or better yet in some relief agency or joined the military they would be in a position to comment. Our people our doing a job that must be done, the security of the west and Afganistan depend on it. As to the precieved failings these are priortized in order of importance and will be dealt with as time goes by. Proud as hell of our people, soldiers with honor and doing a tough hard job. Canada cares and it shows!
  85. james p from Canada writes: a general promotes war. huh. big surprise.
  86. The Prytanis from Ottawa, Canada writes:
    re: Scot Loucks
    I think Scot has a point here. When I enter a conversation, believe it or not, my beliefs on a subject are actually up for grabs. I can be persuaded to change my mind if the reasons are good enough. Occassionally this does happen for me.

    Can most of you say the same? You might think it, but ask youselves this: When was the last time you looked at an opinion different from your own and didn't immediately start ticking off reasons why it was wrong? Did you actually try to consider the merits of the point being made? Be honest with yourself on this, I'm not expecting an honest reply.

    If you don't actually consider the arguments (even the poor ones), you are not engaged in a conversation. You're starting a prolonging a shouting match every time you post.

    Kudos, Scot, more people should conduct themselves on the forums as if we were physically sitting in the same room together, not hiding behind anonymous login names...
  87. The Prytanis from Ottawa, Canada writes: So, with that in mind:

    Why is it that most of you are either completely against the mission or completely for? It seems to me that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

    Why can't the intervention be both good for Afghanis and protect big oil interests? Why can't we be doing good things for world stability while at the same time some unscrupulous sorts profit?

    We can do both, and we are. The fact that some western companies are profiting from the mission is undeniable. But so is the fact that Afghanis are benefiting from our presence. People's lives are getting better there, albeit slowly. Conspiracy theories about Karzai and Unocal do not invalidate that progress. It would just be nice if our motives were pure. They're not, but they're still good.
  88. Comments closed, censored, deleted or made to disappear from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: There is always on these threads those who imply that anybody who opposes war (and this 'war' in particular), knows nothing about the reality of military life and of war ('war) proper. That is their very personal way to suggest the arguments put forward by their opponents have no value... Given my biography is of no relevance here, I would suggest that readers not listen to us, Canadian dissidents, but refer, rather, to the testimony of a large number of American Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans. Please refer first to www.warcomeshome.org/node and to ivaw.org. There are other sites everyone can have access to, on the Web. I believe one who does will get confirmation that those of us who have seen much have nothing to patronize others about, while, as is well known, many who have seen little and 'survived', generally do.
  89. John Cassidy from Canada writes: this question has an imperialistic stench and is as much an anachronism as is our western arrogance in attempting to impose our sense of righteousness on others