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BlackBerry: the new hot-button labour issue

HAYLEY MICK

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 6:47 AM EDT 30/04/08

Some lawyers and work-life experts say employers should be taking note if they want to ward off potential lawsuits or massive overtime bills ...Read the full article

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  1. W. Mayne from Canada writes: The solution is easy, those who feel 'overworked' or 'abused' by taking their BB home after work, will simply leave it in their desk drawer at night.
  2. Globe Insider subscriber content
    Abbie Normal from Ottawa, Canada writes: If I choose to read or reply to messages on my time, that is my business, and I certainly don't expect to be paid for doing so (unless there is a message which leads to action needing to be taken - which cannot wait until I am in the office). My BB is also my cell phone, which I am required to carry for emergency contact (but which admittedly is left on the kitchen counter quite often). As I work with offices which are all over the world, it is very handy to be able to exchange a few messages at an odd time of day.

    All management needs to do is to say that if you check on your own time, that is your choice. If there is a job that truly requires you to respond and work out of hours, there are already provisions for standby and callback pay.
  3. Blue Planet from Here and there, Canada writes: Employees working excessive hours and not being compensated is nothing new and has been an issue since before the advent of the Blackberry (Personal Information Device - PID) type devices. The introduction of PC's into the business environment came with the promise of a shorter work week but instead it benefited companies by deriving more work from their employees. At least in the early days of computing employees were fairly compensated for overtime worked. In recent years, with the advent of downsizing, out sourcing and off-shoring companies are squeezing their employees to work more for less compensation even as the cost of living (and working) rises. I have first hand experience with being out-sourced and the resulting double digit cut in pay, having the 24/7 on-call compensation stopped while still working the hours and not having had a bonus or pay increase for the past three years. Getting paid for 38 hours a week and working 70 or more and being sleep deprived because of the on-call calls at all hours of the day and night while trying to raise a family is increasingly difficult and frustrating. A lot of companies talk a good game when it comes to 'work life balance' but for the most, from my experience, its all about the corporate image and doesn't reflect reality. It was suggested in the article that 'people should put their foot down' and not carry the PIDs but, trust me, that only brings accusations of 'not supporting the company' and 'not being part of the team' and suggestions that 'you should consider looking elsewhere [for employment].' I think its about time the Government stopped turning a blind eye to the exploitation of workers and changed the labour laws to ensure workers are fairly compensated and are able to enjoy some semblance of work life balance regardless of whether they carry a PID or not.
  4. michael brown from Canada writes: OMG!

    Now I have heard it all. I have sold into the feds and have had many clients in many departments. I can tell you that although I liked many of them, that none of them were what I would call 'driven'.

    I wish I had some bombastic union twit like the guy in the article to protect me...but I think that as a professional and an adult, I can figure out where the 'off' switch is to use.

    I have seen people take two months holidays and not change voicemail, say publically they are winding down when they have five years left, take french training on my dollars because they want to take time off from their 'real job' and get fully paid additional education (with salary). I have seen legions of time and materials contractors work year after year at $700 and up a day.

    The rest of us who actually work for a living would love these perks. With these and a blackberry so I can be even more difficult to find when work needs to get done I would leave my 60 hour weeks behind me. Maybe even take some french classes when the boss gets a bit testy too!
  5. Stand up for Social Justice The Canadian Way from Canada writes: As per the Employment Standards Act, overtime is to be paid for hours over 44 hours. The problem is that the Ministry of Labour fails to enforce this law which leaves many working many hours without getting paid. If you do file a compalint against your employer for violating the law, most likely you will lose your job. Workers need to unite.
  6. Spring is finally here! from Canada writes: Turn it off!

    You work for the governement - you don't have to worry about job security. You don't have to worry about promotions - just qualify and you will be placed in the next pay group.

    If you have a problem with this addictive device - leave it at the office when you leave at the end of your 7.5 hour day. (1/2 hour for lunch.)

    If anyone should not be complaining about work place stress its govenment employees...
  7. Public Servant from Canada writes: "Spring is finally here! from Canada writes: Turn it off!

    You work for the governement - you don't have to worry about job security. You don't have to worry about promotions - just qualify and you will be placed in the next pay group.

    If you have a problem with this addictive device - leave it at the office when you leave at the end of your 7.5 hour day. (1/2 hour for lunch.)

    If anyone should not be complaining about work place stress its govenment employees... "

    Hmmm... you mean take it home and respond to director's emails after my 10-hour workday, sometimes on weekends as well, and not be promoted despite how hard I work because we don't get promoted in the public service, we have to compete for an increase in pay group. Oh, and 9 times out of 10 I eat lunch at my desk.

    Just to clear things up a bit, I actually work for the feds.
  8. Paul Joseph from Toronto, Canada writes: You spelled "Labour" wrong.
  9. G S from Ottawa, Canada writes: What a joke. A BB is a perk. Access to email and a free cell phone and paid-for web browsing wherever you are. Oh, what a tragedy that employees have been burdened with this weight!!!

    The solution is simple. Take 'em all away. 99% of PS workers don't need them anyway. Then listen to the whining as they complain about the lack of flexibility and the need to be chained to a desk all day long.

    Just another example of how unions have outlived their usefulness in this day and age. If I hear any more whining from overprivileged public servants I'm gonna lose it.
  10. F Xavier from Kitchener, Canada writes: The Blackberry work protocol issue is very important and has significant implications for the workplace.

    A more important yet generally unrecognized implication relates to health and safety. Yes, we are talking about the inherent health risks associated with prolonged cumulative exposure to devices that emit/radiate low levels of EMF. Employers and all folks using such devices should have a careful look at the BioInitiative Report which can be viewed at: http://www.bioinitiative.org/report/index.htm.
    or the group responsible: http://www.bioelectromagnetics.org/

    The report offers some very interesting evidence to suggest that there may be more to the "crackberry handle" than mere human compulsiveness. The suggestion is that there is brain matter transformation which initially presents similar to an opiate affect. Such a change points us to a real addiction relationship with devices like cell phones and blackberries. Then, we move on as cumulative exposure increases to more serious debilitation such as brain tumors, lesions, and stronger predisposition to Alzheimer's.

    Thusfar, these results have generally been dismissed by industry product suppliers. Public health officials have not srongly weighed in on the issue. Though, communities have begun to be very protective about blocking the installation of cell phone repeater towers in areas where there are larger numbers of people and children.

    Interestingly, the focused interest of the scientific community which worked on the report does not seem to be diminishing at all. They are similar to the core group of folks who always attributed great potential harm to prolonged tobacco usage.

    If the threshold hours of usage prove to be accurate, there will be a much larger liability for businesses and agencies associated with ordering the usage of various small wireless devices than the risk of a big overtime bill.
  11. Randal Oulton from Canada writes: For 5 or 10% of the workforce, or whatever the number is, Blackberry's are certainly a god-send, and who can dispute that? But, my opinion, and yes, it's just a sense, an uniformed opinion, that for 90% of people, or 95%, Blackberrys add nothing in terms of productivity, and just increase the overhead costs of running a department.

    For these people, all they do do is serve as a status symbol to boost one's sense of the importance of one's job.
  12. Dickie Whithers from Cold Water, Canada writes:

    I bought the upgraded model. Mine comes with an off button.

    .
  13. Sleepy Head from Canada writes: I used to use a BlackBerry, at my previous job. I took it home every night and checked it frequently because I had all my email accounts on it (personal ones included). Once in a while I would do work-related things, but it would have been foolish to expect overtime pay for it. I was never "required" to check my work email--I did it because I wanted to.
  14. Mike Mikelson from Canada writes: So if this lawyer is successful would his clients agree to stay late every night to make up for time lost surfing the web, sending/receiving personal emails and phone calls to make up for the lost time? Oh, little Johnny's need to see the doctor? Do it at you 5 o'clock when you're done work, you're needed at the office. Gee if there was only someway to unchain you from your desk; someway you could send and receive phone and email messages?
  15. SL M. from Toronto, Canada writes: Spring is finally here: If you have clients that are TRULY doing this, and taking advantage of "The System", then I strongly encourage you to report them to the Public Service Commission, or Public Service Integrity Commisssioner, their Director....the list goes on. If your clients did say this, it was likely said sarcasticly, with tongue in cheek. Secondly, I can tell you that the conventional 9-5 job doesn't exist anymore, especially in an era of blackberries, internet, etc. In fact, a certain policy of the Government of Canada acknowledges this fact. You should check out the Treasury Board Secretariat website for more information. Finally, as a federal worker myself, I take great pride in the work that I do, and the work that my team does. Not everyone can be a bureaucrat. And, quite frankly, Im sick and tired of people thinking that we sit back and pick our asses, watching Dr. Phil re-runs on Youtube at work. Give your head a shake!! I'm present at work 9-5. After taking the train home, making dinner for my family (you know the life side of the work-life balance), I sit down for time to myself arund 7:30-8pm, with my blackberry in hand, responding to emails (mostly work related) that I didnt get to in the day, or following up on emails of those colleauges that stayed in the office long after I left at 5:00pm. I should also tell you that I can't tell you which restaurant is across the street, as I too, 9 times out of 10 spend my lunch break working, and yes, returning phone calls, and emails, and reading Briefing Notes is working!! And that 15 minute break we get in the morning? I think I just busted something on my right side laughing... But, you know what? I love my job. But loving your job doesnt mean the employer can take advantage.
  16. Proud New Brunswicker from NB's Golden Triangle, Canada writes: Sleepy Head from Canada writes: I used to use a BlackBerry, at my previous job. I took it home every night and checked it frequently because I had all my email accounts on it (personal ones included). Once in a while I would do work-related things, but it would have been foolish to expect overtime pay for it. I was never "required" to check my work email--I did it because I wanted to.

    That is the difference, Sleepy head, You did it because you wanted, some employers are demanding 7/24 access to their employees without proper compensation, and that is wrong...

    And to G S from Ottawa....Just another example of how unions have outlived their usefulness in this day and age. If I hear any more whining from overprivileged public servants I'm gonna lose it.

    If you had 1/2 a clue concerning Calada's Labour movement, and the average public servant in general, you wouldn't be making such uninformed statements.. but that is typical og most of you UCB's...
  17. Stephen McPherson from Bradford, Canada writes: Needing a BB is a sign of weakness.
  18. bob london from Canada writes: Mine has an auto on/off. Man, Blackberry is a good company as it even had lazy government workers in mind. I work 12-18 hour days and have 40 employees. Ironically, any money I should be making goes to increased fees and taxes to the province. If the government workers would give back their blackberrys they would stop terrorising everyone.

    Thankyou Harper for reduced taxes, Dwight Duncan stole them through "arms length" corporations and municipal taxes (yes, Dalton's child)
  19. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: Just wait until they start implanting GPS devices into employees along with the BB's. 24/7? It'll be 24/7/365!
  20. Sue W from Canada writes: This is just the beginning. Next, they'll be seeking compensation for themselves and family members for some sort of 'injury' or physical or mental 'illness' from the hazards of using this technology during weekday workhours, or after hours during 'family' time at home.
  21. Patrick M from Canada writes: Too many Lawyers and not enough work. My thumb has a kink in it from using my BB device. I think I have the start of a huge class action, can one of you ambulance chasers please give me a call? 1-866-SCU-MBAG. Thanks!

    Seriously though, we all have the ability to say no! If your employer is too demanding find another job more suitable to you.
  22. Friendly Anglo from Ottawa, Canada writes: I love seeing all these men standing around playing with their "Game Boys". It is an addiction, you know. People get up in the middle of the night to check for messages. Time to get a life and put down the blackberry.
  23. D McAnn from Canada writes: Let's not forget that many people use the BB to free themselves of the four walls of the office, and still get work done. This nitwit lawyer's "overtime" argument can be offset by asking if the users who escape the office pay back the time they are out of the office (not working, for the most part) yet still appear to be working because they can respond to an e-mail and/or answer a call. How about crediting your employer for the personal things you do while "on the clock"? I use a BB...sometimes I check e-mail in the evening, and sometimes I don't. It's not just about switching the device off...it's about having the ability to switch work off when you leave. Sometimes I work more than 37.5 hours in a week. My salary is designed to compensate me for my base work week, but I see "overtime" hours as the means to achieving higher bonuses and/or increasingly better positions in the organization. Therefore, in the long run, I feel I am compensated for putting extra effort into my career. It's amazing to me how many people I know don't put any extra effort into their jobs, and then gripe when they don't receive a bonus at the end of the year, or get passed over for a promotion.
  24. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: As a crew member with AC I am to be at work an hour and half before my flight-----have a briefing and work through the entire 'boarding' process, without making a single cent.

    I am not paid until the aircraft moves. Then when we land, I am not paid a penny once it stops.

    Plain robbery that slips under the radar.

    I ask all of you, if you had lost 11% pay, if you were not keeping up with inflation, if your new hires made less than the canadian poverty level, would you put up with that?

    One should get paid for 'all' work done
  25. Sue W from Canada writes: Proud New Brunswicker from NB's Golden Triangle, Canada writes: ....concerning Calada's Labour movement....

    Another labour movement? As if Canada didn't have enough unions already.
  26. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    to Sue W who whines "Another labour movement? As if Canada didn't have enough unions already. "

    If you enjoy weekends off, lunch breaks, vacation and vacation pay, medical, employment insurance, old age pension.......you can thank the union movement.

    All your rights in this country, as an employee, are directly DIRECTLY due to past trade unions and the battles they fought to win them.

    Some gave up their lives, so you can sit back comfortably and whine.

    They are being eroded now------bite your ignorant tongue
  27. Sue City from Ottawa, Canada writes: Too bad that most government workers who are assigned a Blackberry are managers, and most, if not all, management are union exempt. So, this action is, in effect, useless.
  28. Bart Farquart from Vanillaland, Canada writes:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: Just wait until they start implanting GPS devices into employees along with the BB's. 24/7? It'll be 24/7/365!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Browse around and you can find references to how the newer GPS equipped crackberrys can be used to track employees:

    http://www.follow-me.ca/

    As to the topic at hand, RIM markets crackberrys to companies implying they will get after hours work out of their employees. The best solution is just to ignore weekend or evening requests until you get back to the office. People get the hint and will largely leave you alone.

    All it takes is a bit of willpower. Moreover, crackberrys have lots of cool features that are personally useful such as scheduler, browser, media player, and maps.
  29. 61 latour from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van.....in your second post you castigate Sue W for her comment while you gush and laud the past efforts of unions. Yet in your first comment, you are moaning about a lack or pay, working conditions and an erosion of your actual wages. Sounds like the glorious union didn't do its job very well when dealing with AC.

    If conditions are so poor at AC, then why don't you go work somewhere else? I just completed yet another AC flight where the cabin crew was sullen and treated the paying passengers with disdain-in both official languages. Why don't you try Westjet, or did the part about having to smile on the job turn you off? Probably an "unacceptable working condition".

    Your support of unions is understandable. One thing that unions have indeed accomplished is that they provide an environment for people to do acceptable to borderline-mediocre work and at the same time allow them to harbour an attitude of victimization and entitlement.

    If you don't like where you work, get off your butt and do something about it.
  30. Patrick M from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    If you enjoy weekends off, lunch breaks, vacation and vacation pay, medical, employment insurance, old age pension.......you can thank the union movement.

    All your rights in this country, as an employee, are directly DIRECTLY due to past trade unions and the battles they fought to win them.

    Nice soapbox!!

    I'll concede that unions played a very important role in the development of Labour 50 years ago. I just don't see the relevance of them today. In fact, I beleive they do more harm by protecting lazy people.
  31. Sue W from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: As a crew member with AC I am to be at work an hour and half before my flight-----have a briefing and work through the entire 'boarding' process, without making a single cent. I am not paid until the aircraft moves. Then when we land, I am not paid a penny once it stops. Plain robbery that slips under the radar....

    So easy to solve. Management can pay you for every second of your precious travel time, and then deduct the time you sit and chat with your co-workers on the plane and reduce your salary/wages and benefits accordingly.
  32. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    to 61 latour-----westjet employees are getting older, marrying, buying homes (at least trying to). They will be getting grumpier and more organized as time goes on.

    I once had a business, and discovered employee good will, while growing a business, only lasts awhile...compensation is imperative in later years

    My union lost it's strength in the last 'bankruptcy', we were told our jobs were on the line. We bent over backwards in fear. 6 months later AC was making record profits.

    I do a good job on board as well as thousands of others, out of simple personal pride, (and I do it in both languages gladly).

    If you have bad flights so be it, that is what you are paying for now. You get out of your workers, what you pay for. AC, and for that matter all carriers, have passed the line where they care. They know dollars dictate business.

    They know, if you save a few bucks you will be back, despite a 'lack of smiles'

    You asked for low fares, you got the results-----hypocrite
  33. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    and 61 Latour, if just 'going and getting a job' was easy, perhaps we would. However, nothing is ever that easy, especially when one is older.

    A better avenue is to fight for your rights and a little respect.

    The tired old argument of all you indignant passengers is just that-----tired.

    the industry has changed----they are nickel and dimeing YOU and ME, while they walk away with millions.

    You see, we are on your side, and you don't know it at all.
  34. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: OK patrick, we will outlaw unions.

    Now....you tell me how long it would take for working conditions to erode----everywhere.

    Once the standard is gone, once the pressure is off, what do you think will happen? seriously

    in these times, do you think employers would not jump on the cost saving bandwagon?

    The bottom line, and shareholder, officer compensation is the norm now, no future thinking.

    I put it to you, we would all suffer tremendously with no standard bearers, and if you don't see that, you don't really read between headlines.
  35. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    Heh Sue, our job is there to ensure your 'safety', not serve you lukewarm coffee, without cease.

    If you think just being on an aircraft at very odd hours, with bad air, bad food, rotten pay, and people like you, is not work, then shake your head.

    We are paid for safety, we train every year, 3 days a year, exams etc.... all unpaid, by the way, to ensure your safety----That is my job.

    the service is secondary------and believe me, for the prices you pay now, service will be gone in short order, and we will be there just manning doors.

    Typical whining canadian------you have no idea what I am talking about, or what I do, but you everything to say about it.

    Flying is not a hollywood movie anymore Sue----get used to it.

    You get what you pay for, and contrary to what you see, we are working hard, and paid poorly.
  36. Proud New Brunswicker from NB's Golden Triangle, Canada writes: Sue W from Canada writes: Proud New Brunswicker from NB's Golden Triangle, Canada writes: ....concerning Calada's Labour movement....

    Another labour movement? As if Canada didn't have enough unions already.

    Somebody ALWAYS has to play language and spelling police don't they...
  37. Trevor Ouellette from Canada writes:
    "work-life experts"? Oh, puke.
  38. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: "I'll concede that unions played a very important role in the development of Labour 50 years ago. I just don't see the relevance of them today. In fact, I beleive they do more harm by protecting lazy people." So Patrick. What do you suppose would happen if unions totally went away right now. I work in an industry that has both union and non-union companies invloved. I myself work for a non-union company and I know that the only reason I keep my current levels of benefits is because the company is scared it's employees might unionize. Just take a look at any industry that doesn't have any form of unionization and you'll usually find sub standard pay and benefits. Better yet, check out the so-called Right to Work States in the US and what you will find is a poorer level of education, less pay, and a lower standard of living. Just look at some of the above post's and it's plain to see that company's take advantage of people every chance they get. In some, it's expected that you will respond to an email after hours and on weekends. Oh, I know it's real easy to say that if you don't like it then find another job, but in some cases it's not that easy, especially if you have a family and a mortgage. Maybe if government would actually enforce laws and company's actually abide by the existing labor laws then maybe we can discuss unions being irrelevant.
  39. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    There is nothing like a lack of historical perspective, and an ability to ignore possible implications, really gets my goat-----in any area :-)

    Look back people. look back, nothing changes, we repeat everything.

    The reason we never learn-----simply, people like Sue W, Patrick M and 61 Latour don't see the connections, never see the connections.

    Or, if they do, don't care.
  40. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    thank you Cowtown Boy
  41. Mike H from Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    the service is secondary------and believe me, for the prices you pay now, service will be gone in short order, and we will be there just manning doors."

    Hmm...the service is secondary. Yes, you definitely do work for Air Canada, don't you.

    "You get what you pay for, and contrary to what you see, we are working hard, and paid poorly."

    Working hard at being bitter and making Air Canada as unhospitable as possible apparently.
  42. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Mike H, you are barking up the wrong tree

    The future of travel is here, and you don't have any idea, do you? take a look around you, internationally if you must.

    Your little myopic west jet is only a spit in the bucket when it comes to trends.

    As for me. I receive complimentary letters constantly. I told you, I do a good job out of personal pride. I am simply not compensated for it now.

    Imagine how much better I would perform, if I was. I save my vitriol for these posts.
  43. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    Oh yeah, and Mike H. to get a letter out of you people-----believe me, you really have to perform miracles.

    Guess I do eh!
  44. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Mike H, do you honestly think it is the rank-and-file employees that are responsible for Air Canada's anti-customer decisions of late? The nickel-and-diming no meals, the fuel surcharges, the pillow taxes and new 1-bag policy?

    And can you honestly think that AC's employees are then immune from the same kind of treatment?

    I cannot get over how many of you are so ideologically pro-corporation and anti-union. Then again, many of you also believe that destruction of the Wheat Board will be a good thing for individual farmers - not!

    As F/A and Cowtown have already addressed, you can thank unions for whatever benefits and protections you now have in your own job, whether it be unionized or not. The individual only has a fighting chance against big business when joining as a collective, and that's a right none of us should be willing to give up.

    Remember that, you folks who favour things like the recent Ford negotiation, whereby there will now be 2 classes of Ford workers - those with benefits and good wages, and those without - that new 2nd-class Ford worker could very well be your wife or child.
  45. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    Michele right on---------and, those paid poorly, will most certainly entertain doing 'poorer' work, at some point. Why bother, if you aren't compensated? Why bother if you are treated poorly?

    It may be your family in that poorly constructed car one day, and then you will all whine about faulty product.

    You get what you pay for in all things.
  46. Globe Insider subscriber content
    Jennifer Menna from Canada writes: The problem that needs to be looked at is do we really need to be connected all of the time. My husband has a BB. Under a previous boss he was expected to respond to all emails regardless of time of day immediately. His new boss reminds him that there is an off button.

    That being said some of the people he deals with could not understand why he didn't get back to them while on vacation last week.

    If you are required to be on call then you should be compensated, if you are just addicated then learn to turn off the thing.

    However there is a trend to expect people to work all hours, unpaid or be available. Also in Ontario IT workers are not covered by several sections of the ESA. I can understand the realities of working in a global economy however there is no reason that you should need to answer right away, unless it was an emergency.
  47. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    That's right Jennifer, it permeates the work world, no matter how tech or non-tech the job.

    We have accepted more work, for less of everything-----money and a life.

    all in the name of the bottom line. Those of you who don't see that, will never see that.
  48. D McAnn from Canada writes: Wow...talk about getting off-topic. I had to check and see what the story was about.
  49. Patrick M from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: OK patrick, we will outlaw unions

    F/A I'm not saying we should outlaw unions, besides they're needed for people who want high paying jobs and a place to file a greviance.

    and Cowtown boy, there are lots of places who survive without Unions and maintain a higher standard of living, Honda Canada comes to mind. The greater issue with the standard of living is people typically live/spend beyond their means...everyone wants the nice truck, flat screen t.v., jet ski and a $48/hr job where they can kick their feet up. Don't blink, there goes another $30/hr Union Factory job to China...
  50. 61 latour from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van....since you lobbed out the "hypocrite" label, how about I suggest we re-brand your nom-de-plume to "Sweet F/A".

    In response to your comments, Westjet employees may ultimately become grumpier-I haven't noticed that trend in the past 15 years.

    While you may take pride in your work, and do a good job (and kudos to you for doing that) so very many of your fellow union members do not. As a frequent business traveler or member of the traveling public, it is the "I don't give a damn attitude" that I invariably see time and time again. While you might try to justify this as a more recent phenomenon (ie "that is what you are paying for now and you get what you pay for"), I would suggest it goes back decades.

    "AC and all carriers have passed the line where they care"? I agree, only if "all carriers" means North American carriers. Once you step overseas, things are different. "You asked for low fares...". Actually, I didn't personally. But when paying 5-8 thousand dollars for an overseas flight, is a certain level of service and attitude too much to ask for?
  51. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Patrick M, Honda pays decent wages and benefits BECAUSE competing auto-makers are unionized - how can you not understand that?
  52. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: With my Blackberry, I respond top everyone when I'm on vacation.

    It's called an email rule stating that I'm out of office and won't be returning my email until I return
  53. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Patrick, the old 'flat screen TV' chestnut is just that, a dead end argument.

    there are millions out there who have no idea where to find one. let alone the means to buy one.

    This new world we find ourselves in----people struggle just pay bills now. If you have not noticed the ground shift, then you live a very coddled life indeed (blind, some might say)

    It is not just unions that demand our support to maintain our lives. Look around, we are losing ground in every way.

    Again, shortsightedness, and a lack of historical perspective, will be our undoing.
  54. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    Honda is a good employer then, however, only pays those wages and hands out those benefits, to retain good workers, AND because the standards are maintained by unions with less 'friendly' employers as competitors

    If you don't see that, then, with respect, you don't see anything
  55. Patrick M from Canada writes: Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Patrick M, Honda pays decent wages and benefits BECAUSE competing auto-makers are unionized - how can you not understand that?

    Because I'm stupid Michele. You honestly think that is the only reason?
  56. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    No Patrick, she thinks you are 'blind'

    and I know you are.
  57. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: "and Cowtown boy, there are lots of places who survive without Unions and maintain a higher standard of living, Honda Canada comes to mind"

    Patrick -didn't you read my post. Honda is in a heavily unionized industry and to keep the unions out, it goes out of it's way to compensate and treat people properly. What would they do if there were no unions?
  58. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    Cowtown Boy, anti unionists will never be swayed, they have a world view that doesn't allow common sense to enter. I mean that.

    I have had this discussion countless times over the years. I find, as well, they are often religious (there, I got it in, for those of you who know my posts), conservative voters, and often middle class. The very ones who bask in union-won benefits.

    The ones who really have a interest in union busting----shareholders, and highly compensated company officers, often stay quiet and let the ignorant (meaning 'not-knowing') minions do the PR, soundbite job for them.
  59. Patrick M from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    This new world we find ourselves in----people struggle just pay bills now. If you have not noticed the ground shift, then you live a very coddled life indeed (blind, some might say)

    People struggle to pay bills because they don't want to give up something else to pay them first. They have the need to consume, to have the best new gadget etc. I make $50,000 per year working for myself, I own my own modest home, own my car have zero debt. I didn't get debt free because was trying to keep up with the Jones', I have basic cable, basic phone, an answering machine and a blackberry so I can retreive my email I rarely if ever eat fast food yet some how I survive. My point is, it's not what you make it's what you save.

    Now put a smile on your face and deal with the paying public!
  60. Sue W from Canada writes: Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: ....there will now be 2 classes of Ford workers - those with benefits and good wages, and those without....

    And who agreed to that?
  61. Patrick M from Canada writes: Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: What would they do if there were no unions?

    I don't know, lets find out!
  62. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    And there it is, was waiting for it.

    the self made man and his self made argument. good for you Patrick, I mean that.

    However, those who choose to work for someone deserve respect, and compensation. And I say to you, who isn't in the workforce. You have no idea how things have changed, and are changing. If you know that, and still don't pay attention, then yes, you are 'not so bright'

    I do my job and do it well----, doesn't mean I can't complain in this forum, and certainly doesn't mean my employer shouldn't pay attention to my welfare.

    After all the product is only as good as the employees make it no?
  63. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: "I don't know, lets find out!"

    That's fine Patrick. Lets do this right after we beef up and ENFORCE the labor laws. And please don't insult my intelligence by saying that the current laws are enforced and employees have no fears about reporting violations. There isn't a piece of paper long enough to list all the offenses I've seen over time.
  64. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: "and Cowtown boy, there are lots of places who survive without Unions and maintain a higher standard of living, Honda Canada comes to mind" Patrick -didn't you read my post. Honda is in a heavily unionized industry and to keep the unions out, it goes out of it's way to compensate and treat people properly. What would they do if there were no unions?

    --------------------------------------

    I guess that they would pay market wages for the trades that they need. Hold on a moment... Isn't that what they do?

    Do you think that without the unions the pay would be lower? Very possible that for some trades it would be. Janitors come to mind which used to make as much as a qualified tradesman in the Big 3. But for the most part the pay would be the same.

    The main problem with the private sector North American unions is that they restrict way in which labour can be used. This is why, IMO, the the Japanese don't like North American style unions.

    That being said, I don't think the unions are the Big 3s problem. These guys cannot DESIGN a proper car. Assembly is very good. I don't think anyone can complain that the cars on the lot are not perfectly assembled. It is the subsequent problems that take the fun out of owning one.

    Furthermore, the auto unions operate in a market environment and as such they have fundamental economic limits on their demands. Furthermore, these unions are part of something that is economically productive. It's not like these guys hold anyone hostage to their services, like say the PUBLIC sector unions. And its not like they just produce GHG like a large portion of our public sector.

  65. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    That product you pay for with your hard-earned self- made dollars will only be worth it,the company that makes it, cares.

    At the moment they only care about their shareholders and their bonuses.

    Surely you have noticed the downturn in value??

    oh yeah, you fly with airlines, and you complain about the service and staff.

    Funny how this works huh, poorly paid staff, less service, poorly maintained aircraft, more safety issues. You see Patrick, as I said before.

    Whether you like it or not. WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE.
  66. John Dallas from Canada writes: The real issue around BB use is the culture. If you have one and don't respond immediately just like everyone else, then you are viewed negatively. You have to make sure your performance is above par while maintaining the strict discipline of turning the BB off or ignoring it. I leave my BB on all the time, but it does not ring every time I get email and I do not check it constantly. I even ignore most messages until the next business day. It is all about managing the expectation. If people don't expect an immediate reply, you don't have to worry about it. But, if everyone is doing it and you aren't, it may be detrimental to your career and THAT is the scary part. You really have to gauge the corporate culture and play by the rules everyone else is. If the cultre is not right for you, get out. For those saying that it is hard to find a job, I disagree. Finding a job is easy. Finding a well paying job, in your area of expertise and at a workplace that has a great culture is the hard part. If you want to work, finding a job is VERY easy. As for unions, the labour movement is on the decline, except in the government. Another example of the government being a large bureaucracy that will take a long time to catch up to the private sector. I know many civil servants who work very hard, but are trapped in an infrastructure that does not reward productivity and punish apathy. In the next few years, 40% of the federal government workforce is going to retire. The next generation will not stand for having to sit in their jobs for 20 years before being eligible for a promotion through some pseudo-fair posting process that is usually so precise on skill-set to fit the one person the hiring manager wants. If I worked in the Federal Governement, I would probably be a jaded clerk with no bonus and half the salary. Thankfully, I don't work for the Feds.
  67. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: Nah Blackberries are not a perk, especially since you are usually not supposed to use for personal use, and of course you shouldn't use the phone save for business...so why do I want it clipped to my belt?

    I hate having to bring anything along with me save for my own phone and some cash when I'm out and about. It's very unfashionable to have this thing attached nowadays. Good to have if you personally like one, but ugly to wear.

    Here's a happy medium perhaps.

    Allow personal calls "local calls" as much as the employee wants, in return for carrying it around for VERY IMPORTANT tasks and being only responsible to respond for HIGH PRIORITY issues. So just because the boss can't find X thing, he shouldn't be emailing people who are off to get answers...unless it's a VERY VERY important issue.

    You know, most people are fine with occasional responses to work outside of work hours...BUT...it can be a slippery slope as well and suddenly you're doing it all the time.

    Also, I have issue when others in an office can't get their work done, so stay late, and start emailing others blackberry's to get more information. Just because you can't get your X together, I have to be buzzed in the middle of a movie?

    Again however, you shouldn't HAVE to respond. Many people should shutdown their link to the blackberry at end of day. Ask your admin they can have it stop updating at 6pm or so.
  68. Sue W from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: So much misery. Has A/C cut back on subsidized air travel for you and your family or something?
  69. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    Ah but John, who writes "As for unions, the labour movement is on the decline, except in the government"

    That may be the case for now. However, employers are certainly going to find, in the near future, that to hold onto good employees, in the coming 'employee-short' era, they will need to give.

    They will need to pay well, offer benefits and treat them with respect, it they want them to stick around.

    Unions or no unions, if the end results are the same, I am all for it.

    It is a matter of compensation for work done, simple equation.
  70. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: Public Servant from Canada writes: Hmmm... you mean take it home and respond to director's emails after my 10-hour workday, sometimes on weekends as well, and not be promoted despite how hard I work because we don't get promoted in the public service, we have to compete for an increase in pay group. Oh, and 9 times out of 10 I eat lunch at my desk. Just to clear things up a bit, I actually work for the feds.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    If things are so bad why don't you just leave? Go find a job in the private sector and then complain. None of the public employees ever do, irrespective of 'hard' their job is.

    The big irony of this article IMO is that from what I've heard through the grape vine RIM hires engineers using the IT clause. In the Ontario labour law there are classes of workers that are deemed to be required to work at any hours (shifts). IT personal is one such class. Therefore, irrespective of the hours worked one cannot ask for overtime just time off (lets see who's gonna try that one).

    So the makers of the devices work their a... off with no overtime pay so that goverment employees can ask for 'overtime' for the use of those devices while they answer the 'director's emails'? Sweeeeet!

  71. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: It's also a bigger issue. Sorry but we live in capitalisim, why should you give free work?

    I don't get free airtime out of the blue or daily?

    I love when free marketers sneak in Collectivism into our lives, and tout it as "For the team" yada yada yada. Sorry, that sound like socialism. Hate to break it to you, but many people (not all) just want their pay. You pay for the time they work for you...as I do pay a company for it's services.

    I never get away with free service, so why should the company...it's the basics of our system. You pay!
  72. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    Sue, -----no they haven't, and if you plan on flying anytime in 2009, forget it.

    thousands of disgruntled workers, pilots, flight attendants and ground staff have contract talks coming, at the same time.

    We, they, gave up more than you can imagine, to 'save' our jobs (read --line our CEO's pocket with millions).

    I make less now than 11 years ago, and new flight attendants make about $17,000, below the poverty line.

    Give me a break-----when you whine about service, keep that in mind, if you are interested in the truth, if not, keep whining.

    There is another side to this story, no matter how hard you wish otherwise.
  73. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: jerry johnson - you are right, however what happens is just like the service to consumers...the companies adopt identical rules, so there is not going anywhere.

    they make it mandatory to work overtime, which has to be paid...so they come up with "creative" ways to not call it overtime.

    Again it's simple, you and i do not "usually" get products for free, you also cannot get work for free. Free work is slavery, and while no one is a direct slave, they are not be re numerated for their lost time.

    This may sum it up better:

    Every minute you work unpaid, is a step closer to death. You've lost that time, and for nothing. You gained nothing, nobody thanked you, and basically you were used...like a prostitute.
  74. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    That's right Imperial
  75. Patrick M from Canada writes: F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    And there it is, was waiting for it.

    the self made man and his self made argument. good for you Patrick, I mean that.

    I'm not out of touch with the working people F/A, I hear all my unionized friends whining every day about having to take work home because they can't get it all done between 9 and 3:30 on $75,000 or better per year.

    I hear the, oh I get 10 sick days per year paid and 5 weeks vacation bs that goes on top of that. All without any risk I might add.

    Can you even begin to phatom what it costs an employer to have a person park an a$$ in a chair over and above the unproductive paid time off? What it costs to provide the uniform(s), electricity, property taxes, phones systems, education and training etc, etc, etc.?

    All of that and the employee still wants more without the risk. Good luck to you during your next collective agreement. I hope you get what your looking for.
  76. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    I doubt you will see my point Sue-------truly---- it you haven't yet, you never will.

    there is a standard of fairness and compensation we must maintain in our economy. If we don't, we suffer------all of us.

    You seem to have no idea.
  77. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: Jerry

    You still get paid overtime if you exceed a certain amount of hours. Some provinces are 40 hours/week and some are 44. I believe if you're federally regulated then it's 40 hours. If your unionized, you'll probably get double time, and if not then time and a half. The problem is there are so many company's trying to avoid this by making side deals with employees for time off (at straight pay of course). Another good one is in the restaraunt industry ...... where they tell you it's mandatory to attend the 2 hour weekly staff meeting .... but you don't get paid for it.
  78. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: And I'll shut up after this final point! ;)

    In some businesses where they make everyone work overtime - all the time, working that overtime gets you nothing.

    It's not like in the "ol days" i guess, when people respected the extra time you put in. You didn't get paid, but if the hatchet came down, they kept you because you put extra time in.

    They'll drop you as fast as the next guy, because everyone is working overtime. It means nothing anymore. it's just a way of getting tons of free work from their employees.

    Again, can I walk into a store and take a cell phone? I mean, I'm a cell customer, why don't they let me just take it? You know, take one for the team?

    It's stealing to not pay someone for their time.

    Again, doesn't apply everywhere, sometimes you like doing it, I do as well off and on with no troubles and don't expect anything back. But also, my employer does not demand it regularly.

    If it's regularly happening, time to pry open those ever so cheap wallets and pay up!
  79. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:
    I told you Patrick, I had a business and sold it, throughout, I was still an employee with AC. I had a unique opportunity to see both sides.

    My one enduring lesson in my successful business (by the way)-----I will get good work, and compliments from my customers, when my staff were well treated, and paid fairly.

    It is a simple simple equation, one that large companies forget, in their rush to secure bottom lines.

    Instead of your rich friends, try talking to a new flight attendant then, they make $17,000, and they are quitting in droves right now.

    Guess what, the union is on it and the company is worried. Seems they will have to start ponying up with some $$$ to keep the planes flying.

    So next time you encounter surly service, or a dirty plane, remember this conversation.

    again, you get what you pay for.
  80. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes:

    Cowtown, as another example,

    AC flight attendants have to---mandated by law----take 3 full days of safety, and first aid training, and one at home with a workbook, plus write exams that hinge on employment-----yearly---without a penny.

    Now how does that engender good work?

    folks, yes I am whining, however, surely you can see the point here.
  81. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Yes I may have made bad career choices----that doesn't diminish my argument, however.

    So all of you who complain about airlines, and service and smiles....and on and on and on.

    Put it into perspective would you. Those employees you demand so much from, are in the same boat as you, and frankly, won't care anymore until someone cares about them.

    The airlines I know well, But, in all areas of our economy, we need to pay fairly for work done, or suffer the consequences.
  82. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Cowtown boy wrote: "Just take a look at any industry that doesn't have any form of unionization and you'll usually find sub standard pay and benefits."

    There are some significant exceptions. High tech is a big one. Finance is another.

    Whenever demand for a certain kind of worker is high and the supply is moderated (usually be educational requirements), the workers do just fine without any form of organization.

    Low or unskilled labour usually benefits from unionization, especially in weak economic conditions, because when demand for labour slackens you can get a race to the bottom with re