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Alternative fuel

California jump-starts the plug-in race

JEREMY CATO

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 3:09 PM EDT 02/05/08

Auto manufacturers are racing to develop new plug-in hybrids. For now, the leaders are General Motors and Toyota. Both are developing vehicles with the new technology for sale around 2010. ...Read the full article

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  1. Alison Harwood from Canada writes: California actually "jump started" the plug-in car revolution over a decade ago. It's just that car companies and big oil weren't ready to allow it at the time. And and mainstream consumers were not as financially motivated to take the plunge as we are in this century. Check out the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car" for some entertaining, and demoralizing, education on the topic.
  2. ken g from Canadian in Mexico City, Canada writes: Joe Public cannot influence how electricity is generated, coal, nuclear, etc. If the demand for electricity increases with the deployment of 100% electric cars then it is up to the governments to provide cleaner power generation.

    However, I can see the cost of power increasing to the cost of gas to charge an plug-in vehicle, a money grab by the utilities. They will find a way to justify the cost, just like the oil companies justify the inflated cost of gas today.

    The government jurisdictions that currently own and control their power generation should continue too.
  3. Ghism Prescott from Canada writes: ......and now for something completely different.

    www.aptera.com
  4. CHP My vote from who ville, Canada writes: If they can build something that uses very little gas, like a hybrid that's very affordable, I'll buy one as my next car. I drive 15 km to work each day, so that'd be perfect. I'd say I'd buy a plug in, but is that really more ecomonical for me? Hydro isn't cheap, nor is it really clean! (Although I'm getting it from Adam Beck Hydro, so I suppose mine is clean).
  5. Peter Chase from Canada writes: "the benefits plug-ins promise ultimately outweigh the costs and potential problems. " You've got it right. The only problem with plug-in hybrids is the initial cost of the batteries, which will go down with volume production since they will use abundant materials. The proposed batteries for GM's Volt do not have the same cathode chemistry as laptop batteries but have a chemistry that uses iron or magnesium instead of expensive cobalt. These alternate chemistries are also more stable, i.e., safer, than cobalt but with slightly less energy storage capability. Re-charging of plug-ins should not present a problem for the power system. According to studies in the US by the Electric Power Research Institute and the US Department of Energy, the power system is capable of charging about 100 million plug-in vehicles overnight, i.e., in off-peak hours, when much of the power system sits idle. This means extra revenue for the power utilities and, in a properly regulated market, lower power costs for everyone. Time of use metering should discourage charging during peak hours that could overstress the power system. As for the pollution caused by the re-charging of plug-ins, it should be less since only a portion of the power system generators use fossil fuel. Furthermore, fossil fuel use in the power system will decrease based on pollution and green house gas considerations and eventually price since renewable energy is getting cheaper and fossil fuel is getting more expensive. The economics of plug-in ownership is more complex than just the fuel savings since it also should include maintenance savings, e.g., regenerative braking that extends the time between brake jobs, the resale value of the batteries and the possible institution of a carbon tax. The plug-in batteries are being designed to have a "life" of ten years, minimum. However, at the "end of life", they will still retain about 80% of their original capacity, i.e., have some residual value.
  6. CHP My vote from who ville, Canada writes: how does Cold weather affect the batteries? If they're half charged while I'm at work all day and it's -20 degrees outside, will I be stranded? WHat about heat during my travel to and from work? I assume that will tax the batteries quite a bit too?
  7. D K from Canada writes: Wouldn't millions of people plugging in cars adversely affect the power grid (ie brownouts, blackouts)? Just a thought.
  8. Ed Bean from PAnicVille On, Canada writes: Peter C good post.
    how much power in Kw does an electric vehicle need to store in order to usable. If we forget the 0-60 performance mentality, then a trad vehicle could get away with 40HP which is what about 30Kw. So with high voltage lower current vehicles it would work, maybe it needs AC batteries!
  9. Philipp Andres from Kincardine, Canada writes: Peter Chase has some good points, I would like to add to those that the real promise of PHEVs is adding V2G capabilities to the vehicles. V2G stands for "Vehicle to Grid", it allows the power system operator to use the parked cars to meet system peaks via direct dispatch signals. This would qualify PHEVs as providing ancillary services. The PJM system operator in the US is already running a pilot project on this with good results. If all cars in the US would be PHEVs with V2G capabilities the installed available capacity has been calculated to be as much as 8 times the currently installed electrical generating capacity in the US! The implications are huge. Some calculations have shown the ancillary service value of a PHEV with V2G capability to be almost matching its purchase price over the life of the car! Of course the system operator will make sure in its charge and discharge control algorithm that the battery will not be depleted so that the driver can still get home. The flip side is that V2G will also allow intelligent charging of the PHEVs. Since the average automobile is idle for 22-23 hours per day intermittent renewable energy sources such as wind energy and solar can be used to charge PHEVs when the resource is available. V2G will allow significant additional renewable energy resources to be added to the grid which otherwise would not be possible.

    All in all V2G capable PHEVs is the way to go and they will have a dramatic impact on the reduction of fossil fuels and simultaneous increase in renewable energy use and hence lead the drive to dramatic reductions in GHG and other emissions!
  10. P I from Canada writes: How about just building more effective mass transit systems that everybody will ride and get people out of their cars!
  11. Peter Chase from Canada writes: Ed B., the storage requirements for an electric vehicle (EV), depends on the type of EV it is and its size. For a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) , e.g., a Prius, 1/4 kWh is all that is needed since the battery's primarily use is for low speed driving and acceleration and recapture of energy from regenerative braking. The actual Prius battery is rated at 1.3 kWh but only 20% of its rated capacity is used as its state of charge (SOC) is maintained between 40% and 60% of its capacity in order to extend battery life. To get a perspective on 1/4 kWh, consider that it is sufficient energy to accelerate a 2,000 kg (4,400 lb.) car from 0 to 100 kph (60 mph). For plug-in electric vehicle (PHEV), like the Volt, the battery size should be sufficient to allow you to do most, if not all, of your typical daily driving using electricity from an overnight charge. A vehicle the size of a Volt would get about 8 km (miles) per kWh for speeds of 100 kph or less. So for a 64 km (40 mile) all-electric range (AER) , the battery would need 8 kWh of usable charge plus a tad (~ 1/4 kWh) to get up to speed. If you drive more aggressively, your AER will be reduced. For an all-electric vehicle (EV), the calculation is similar to the PHEV calculation. For example, the Tesla roadster, similar in size to the Volt, has an AER of almost 400 km (240 miles) and its battery pack holds just over 50 kWh of charge.
  12. N N from Toronto, Canada writes: A stupid idea until we have clean power plants. All these cars do is move the tailpipe from the car to coal-burning plant. Now if these were solar power plants, they might be on to something.
  13. Andre Poirier from Canada writes: NN from TO. Not a stupid idea. You can buy the car, buy a couple solar panels, stick them on your roof and you have decreased CO2. You don't need to switch your whole house to the grid because your car is enough of an energy sink that your car will probably will need more power than you can generate. You can store the solar energy directly to a spare battery and alternate both of them and supplement any thing missing from the grid ... which can be dirty likely nuclear, coal or hydro. While they do nothing to reduce total energy consumption, they do add flexibility and allow at least some car transport to be powered from renewable sources. In places like California where oil is not abundant and sun is, they probably have not finished tapping into the solar potential and can continue doing so. It also allows for remote renewable sources to turn into a little power station with no attachment to any grid and a steady stream of customers coming in their electric cars. It's also marketing. Another reason why it's not stupid. It gets people used to a new infrastructure that can be converted to renewable source. You cannot have all the pieces overnight. Although I do agree that there are even smarter ideas, like reconfiguring transportation infrastructure to make public transit more convenient and energy efficient. Increased use of Public transit reduces the total energy demand. This allows us to accelerate phasing out non-renewables. Cheers
  14. J. R. from Halifax, Canada writes: N N from Toronto, Canada writes: "A stupid idea until we have clean power plants. All these cars do is move the tailpipe from the car to coal-burning plant. Now if these were solar power plants, they might be on to something."

    It's true that a lot of our power comes from dirty plants, but the reality is that a even coal and oil fired plants are cleaner than cars just because they are more efficient. An internal combustion engine is an inherently inefficient way to make power, no matter how many hybrid systems you attach, as most of the energy in the fuel is given off as wasted heat.
  15. bill iam from Canada writes: What about the batteries?

    Best public info I can find was created by a high school student from King George Public School. Compares the top 2 Lithium batteries and compares them to Lead and NiMH.

    http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/WWSEF/07Awards/2007ReportGerwinAndrew.pdf

    Now thats one smart kid, and quite a story in its self.
  16. Alastair james Berry from Nanaimo BC CANADA, Canada writes:
    There are no 'good' batteries............ Some are better than others BUT NONE ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO BE USED IN THE CARS THAT THE AVERAGE CITIZEN NEEDS IN NORTH AMERICA.

    All batteries end up being TOO LIMITED IN CAPACITY, TOO EXPENSIVE, COMPLETELY UNRELIABLE, TOO HEAVY.........or dangerous due to fire or explosion, if shorted!

    THE US NAVY SPENT BILLIONS ON A RELIABLE PROPULSION SYSTEM FOR TORPEDOS.............................batteries and fuel cells were unreliable.........rocket fuel was dangerous and the range limited....

    SO WHAT DID THEY DO?

    Modified an internal combustion engine with cylinders arranged like a gatling gun and a central swash plate drive shaft!!

    It made a noise but had range and reliability!

    Diesel cars are the way to go.........JUST WAIT AND SEE!!
  17. Dwight Jones from Vancouver, Canada writes: Electricity from dams can charge cars overnight, when power is otherwise wasted. In BC, eg. cars could in effect be pollution-free.

    Time for Greepeace to get on the case and argue against dams, I guess. We luddites must stop progress at any cost, and this marriage of dams to cars would be devastating.
  18. Child of the North in Canada from Canada writes: Alison Harwood recommends a good documentary that discusses the EV introduced in California about fifteen years ago. There was a revolutionary battery system in the car developed by a scientist called Dr. Ovshinsky. I believe he sold the technology to GM who in turn sold the rights to a big oil company (check out the movie for details at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7202740060236675590). The GM car was made in their Saturn plant and really looks like it has a Saturn chassis. People in California were begging to keep their test vehicles but GM took them back and shredded the cars. I am not sure how well these vehicles would operate in cold climates but if even people in the warmer parts of the world were using solar panels and electric vehicles what a saving that would make.

    The interesting facts are that you can convert a gas-burning car to an electric car as there are kits available. We have a manual transmission Saturn that is perfect for the conversion (maybe when the engine dies).

    Dr. Ovshinsky operates a large thin-solar panel factory in the States. They make solar panels that look just like roofing shingles and look like they are applied to the roof like you would apply regular shingles. There are thin solar panel sheets that can be attached to the roof of a car to draw solar energy to power the vehicle.

    The technology is there to move away from oil. People just have to do the research online on what solar and electric vehicle technology is out there and then start pressuring politicians to start moving our energy policy in the right direction. Politicians won't lift a finger as long as the oil companies are calling the shots and voters sit quietly at home steaming about the price of gas. It is nice to know that the technology is available for sale for consumers to do the conversion themselves.
  19. B to the A to the R to the T from the left coast, Canada writes: Alastair james Berry from Nanaimo: As I wrote in a previous forum regarding diesel and plugins: 1) While diesel gives you great fuel economy and is good from a CO2 perspective, diesel is also a very dirty fuel and particles from its combustion are toxic according to the EPA. So, while you will save money and help the planet you may not be doing your fellow idlers and roadside residents any favours. Diesel particles are toxic and carcinogenic. Even clean diesels, like M-Benz's Bluetec scores below current gasoline engines in local air quality impact, especially NOx. Another question is how clean will the engines remain over the car's life, even old diesels leave the dealer clean only to start smoking in a few years. Diesel has potential but there needs to be further improvement in this area. 2) Regarding Plug-in EVs and Hybrids. Some have said it will change nothing because lots of electricity is supplied by dirty coal. Even with current methods of electricity production, Plugins would be beneficial because instead of focusing emission reduction measures on 1 million urban tailpipes you can focus on 1 large rural smokestack, which is easier to regulate, upgrade, and clean up. In places like BC with our Hydro power, it would make even more sense. Prior to buying, I researched the possibility of a near-future plugin or Lithium based Prius but there are no fixed dates for its release. Even if a plugin was available as a condo dweller that works in a high-rise I currently do not have electricity in the vicinity of my underground parking stalls; also my parkade's electric systems are common property and not connected to my meter. I doubt the owners would welcome me daisy-chaining extension cords to the nearest plug. People who live in detached homes and in areas that use block heaters do not have this issue, but a lot of urban Americans do. Large building owners will have some interesting things to think about in the future.
  20. B to the A to the R to the T from the left coast, Canada writes: Alastair james Berry from Nanaimo: As I wrote in a previous forum regarding diesel and plugins: 1) While diesel gives you great fuel economy and is good from a CO2 perspective, diesel is also a very dirty fuel and particles from its combustion are toxic according to the EPA. So, while you will save money and help the planet you may not be doing your fellow idlers and roadside residents any favours. Diesel particles are toxic and carcinogenic. Even clean diesels, like M-Benz's Bluetec scores below current gasoline engines in local air quality impact, especially NOx. Another question is how clean will the engines remain over the car's life, even old diesels leave the dealer clean only to start smoking in a few years. Diesel has potential but there needs to be further improvement in this area. 2) Regarding Plug-in EVs and Hybrids. Some have said it will change nothing because lots of electricity is supplied by dirty coal. Even with current methods of electricity production, Plugins would be beneficial because instead of focusing emission reduction measures on 1 million urban tailpipes you can focus on 1 large rural smokestack, which is easier to regulate, upgrade, and clean up. In places like BC with our Hydro power, it would make even more sense. Prior to buying, I researched the possibility of a near-future plugin or Lithium based Prius but there are no fixed dates for its release. Even if a plugin was available as a condo dweller that works in a high-rise I currently do not have electricity in the vicinity of my underground parking stalls; also my parkade's electric systems are common property and not connected to my meter. I doubt the owners would welcome me daisy-chaining extension cords to the nearest plug. People who live in detached homes and in areas that use block heaters do not have this issue, but a lot of urban Americans do. Large building owners will have some interesting things to think about in the future.
  21. Ed Bean from PanicVille ON, Canada writes: i would like to see tax incentives for better fuel efficient vehicles and ideally better public or taxi transport. Watch Radiant City movie if you havent seen it.
  22. Name Witheld from Vancouver, Canada writes: CHP from Whoville: Your concern abotu temperture is well-founded. An even more fundamental (and more commonly overlooked by EV optimists) problem is the impact that heating the passenger compartment of your car will have on its operating range. Those watts are going to have to come from somewhere - and it will be from your car's batteries. The heat supplied to the passengers of a gas-engined car is a waste-product of combustion. In an electric vehicle (or a plug in hybrid) the amount of energy used to heat the passengers takes a much larger chunk out of the vehicle's range. An 80km range in spring may become a 20km range in winter (or less!) depending on how cold it is, and how warm you want to be. The GM impact, for example did not include a heater or an air-conditioner - both of which would have used too much juice. The Impact was a vehicle marketed (pretty purposefully) to self-important eco-geeks, who would attract attention to the product by driving it, could take all day to get somewhere, and could afford to drive something else in case the product didn't work, or could not meet expectations. And do all this in a climate that did not experience anything resembling a Canadian (or even a Michigan) winter. Hollywood, and its celebrities were the perfect target audience. Can you say the same abotu your life? If so, then an EV may be for you!
  23. B to the A to the R to the T from the left coast, Canada writes: Ed Bean...If you want to look into tax credit for fuel efficient vehicle Google 'ECOAuto'. BC and Ontario also offer PST rebates. While ECOAuto has an application process and is set to expire at year's end; the BC tax rebate is automatic at time of purchase and can cover upto $2000 of the PST. It works out that for a base Prius, the rebates offset the GST, the PST, Excise Tax, and provide about $250 off the final price.
  24. Sissy Schuss from Canada writes: and as we debate this issue BMW and Mercedes faced with an extreme drop in sales in NA seek out new emerging markets to sell their cars - read India, China and Latin America

    so we feel good when we go to bed but is the world better off?
  25. Sissy Schuss from Canada writes: And do all this in a climate that did not experience anything resembling a Canadian (or even a Michigan) winter. Hollywood, and its celebrities were the perfect target audience. Can you say the same abotu your life? If so, then an EV may be for you!

    is there not an electric car manufactured in Canada but prohibited for sale here by the DOT?
  26. john doe from Canada writes: sissy schuss yeah there is such a car it's called the "zen" type into youtube under the zen car and you should see. Oh well i am still hoping bmw, merc, audi bring over some of there smaller displacement engines like 1.8 liter diesel in the 518 that gets better millage then a prius in a car that is conciderably larger. The car does especially well on the highway where most canadians spend most of there time driving.

    The other problem with these initiatives is that NA and euro cars are already very clean especially to there chinese, indian and brazillian conterparts. Getting developing countries on board with these programs should be our number one priority.

    Another thing we should look at is posting the number of GHG release per km in car ads like they do in europe so people have an idea on how much they are emitting when they buy the car
  27. Ipso Facto from Canada writes: See what the Economist magazine has to say about Canada's new rules for electric vehicles in a story titled "Not on our roads"
    http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11294453
  28. wayne sharp from kapuskasing, Canada writes: Well I like the idea of setting up a solar system to charge the car, added solar panels to surface and if not already utilized-generate power from any moving parts ex. Tires, drive shaft, braking K.E. storage etc as for cold weather-well we already plug in for block heaters, battery warmers, inline etc so the cold battery problem may not be that big-Besides if our current line of poor batteries start our cars in the winter now, imagine how much more efficient modern batteries will do. Plus with electric motors and dynamic braking heat should not be a problem. Now airconditioning that's a different problem??Hmmm! Other problem not covered is car industry makes a fortune on servicing and replacement parts the electric car has little to service and few moving parts that wear?? Hope there not built with parts made to fail to creat a service industry!
  29. Sissy Schuss from Canada writes: no comments here about running on french fry oil

    we can commute on what americans eat - how is that for free trade and it doesn't pollute....
  30. c f from Ontario, Canada writes: Another point to mention is that California has begun several huge solar power projects, so an increasing percentage of power will be from emission-free sources. It seems plug-in hybrids are a very promising intermediate solution that also allow for the possibility of at-home fuel generation via solar or wind power. So an ostensibly fuel saving technology may also become an enabling technology as well.
  31. Garry S from Canada, Canada writes: I am one of the many who have recently given up suburbia and moved into a downtown condo tower. I would love to buy a plug-in hybrid. However, one problem: there are no outlets in our parking garage, so how I am supposed to plug in at night? I would imagine this will be a common problem across North America.
  32. Bradley Strider from Canada writes: > the "Big Six" car makers must sell 58,333 plug-in hybrid
    > vehicles, along with up to 7,500 "pure zero-emission
    > vehicles," from 2012 through 2014.

    Regulations of this sort are bizarre -- what happens if there isn't sufficient demand? Will the automakers have to produce these vehicles and sell them back to themselves?
  33. Tom Good from Canada writes: It seems to me that North Americans often ignore Europe where fuel prices have been double those of this continent's for the last fifty years thus, they are more innovative regarding engine technology and more sensible regarding vehicle size. The minis getting 75 mpg average are here now with the VW Polo Bluemotion sold in Britain and Australia---my son drives one. The VW Golf diesel-electric hybrid prototype, larger than the VW Polo, reportedly gets the same mileage. BMW and Mecedes Benz are in the forefront of engine innovation too. North American manufacturers know this but over the last 40 years have ignored a major group of their consumers thus the easy entrance of the "foreign" manufacturers and the loss of market share for the "big three" who once were world leaders in the automotive industry.

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