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Globe essay: A new twist in the Middle East

All quiet on the Golan Heights

PATRICK MARTIN

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 3:18 PM EDT 11/06/08

The makings of a deal have been in place for more than a decade. ...Read the full article

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  1. CD W from Canada writes: So if there is a Syrian leader who can make peace, he has one small problem, Iran has decided to destroy the middle east by fighting to last Syrian! It is a bizarre circumstance that the Syrians find themselves in, but to be fair, they are not a stupid people and they probably will end up with a disaster unless they actually hold hands with Israel against Iran. I know retarded wishful thinking.
  2. Bert Russell Paradox, BC from Canada writes:
    Semantics, weasel words, double talk, revised history. Put away your weapons and discuss it for the next 1000 years. A few 1000 years ago you were brothers.
  3. Jessica Adams from Canada writes: Why wasn't Germany made to give up land, they and other Europeans gassed and committed genocide on Jews, not Palestinians. This isn't the first time Europe tried to wipe Jews off the planet.
  4. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'Syria isn't about to sign a treaty unless a Palestinian agreement with Israel is also forthcoming.'

    In other words there will be no treaty between Syria and Israel.
  5. dump harper he's threatening the tax free status of fraserinstitute and churches from Canada writes:
    Mr. Harper please buck the dark side ? Freedom Watch is going down in Nov. ? Let the mideast countries handle their own terrorists. Iranian guards , hezbolla and hamas are using The West to unite would be friends against us ? Area leaders are getting a free ride to riches .

    Stand up for our troops and reach across partisian lines . Use Bob Rae as our envoy to this mess .
  6. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    A Middle East in turmoil serves Israel's interests. It will not negotiate in good faith until the U.S. cuts off financial and military aid.
  7. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: 1967 borders. That's the basis for the peace. There's no going around that.
  8. Eye Sore from Dog Pound, Alberta, Canada writes: Israel will eventually - sooner rather than later, I dare say - be absorbed by a sea of Arab and Muslim demography and an economy of petro-dollars that
    will favor Middle East oil-producers, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the oil
    Gulf States. However formidable Jewish power is now, and, likely to remain, it will, in the end, be overwhelmed. This new power paradigm will soon alter all aspects of our geopolitical arrangements. Both America and Israel will be unable to throw their military weight around the way they have until now.
    God knows whether we should regret this...
  9. Karunaratne Jeyatilleke from Ottawa, Canada writes: Eye Sore from Dog Pound, Alberta, Canada writes: Israel will eventually - sooner rather than later, I dare say - be absorbed by a sea of Arab and Muslim demography and an economy of petro-dollars that
    will favor Middle East oil-producers, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the oil
    Gulf States. However formidable Jewish power is now, and, likely to remain, it will, in the end, be overwhelmed. This new power paradigm will soon alter all aspects of our geopolitical arrangements. Both America and Israel will be unable to throw their military weight around the way they have until now.
    God knows whether we should regret this...

    >Great post Eye sore. It all depends on how much interest West has in that area. If the West changes it's plans then Israelie state will have to find a new place to claim as their own.
  10. Gregg Vernon from Kamloops, Canada writes: If you won't talk to some one the problem will never go way,and no one has to accept pre conditions for talks.I see the Israeli ambassador to the UN is calling Carter a bigot ??? for talking to Syria,seems they drag this out out every time someone says something they don't like.Carter is a better man than any of the current Israeli leadership.Keep building settlements,refuse to talk and say you want peace and hope we are all guillible
  11. Ian B from Canada writes: Karunaratne Jeyatilleke from Ottawa, Canada writes: If the West changes it's plans then Israelie state will have to find a new place to claim as their own.
    >>>
    And the dream goes on. And generations of Palestinians continue their sufferings in the camps as the Arab world avoid making peace with Israel and waiting for this country’s magical disappearance. Wake up and make peace. There was no Western aid to Israel in 1948 when it defeated the armies of the six Arab countries. There was no Western aid to Israel in the 1967. The Arab countries that wanted to make peace with Israel have already done so. The others are only now starting to understand the the time is not on their side.
  12. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    It is deja vu all over again.

    In 4,000 years the only 2 persons to defeat Judah or Judahists are Joseph and Mohammed. For both force was not an option, so they trapped and outwitted them.

    Small businessman trader Mohammed was up against Big Business, Bankers,Trade Monopolists, and Judahists. To defeat them all he neutralized Judahists first.

    Mohammedan strategy is first stalemate, then peace, then victory. Any peace is better than conflict. The Peace of Hudaibiya was on such unfavorable terms that some in his inner Cabinet revolted.

    Peace favors Islam. In 20 years of conflict Mohammed converted less than 1,000. Within 18 months of peace over 20,000.

    As long Arabs were Arabs they used force, and failed. After 60 years of failure, Arabs turn to Islam, and to Mohammed. They can not fail.

    Stalemate in Palestine, Stalemate in Lebanon. Stalemate in Iraq, Stalemate in Afghanistan. Now time for peace.

    First the Judahists, then the Corporate Big Business West.
  13. Ian B from Canada writes: Sounds logical Syed. The question is why in 1948 and then many times again the Arab countries choose to invade Israel instead of accepting it. By now, the numbers could have been on their side. In answering this question I agree with those who believe that the Arab rulers of that (and this) time are afraid of their own population much more than they are afraid of Israel. During peace time the population might start to ask not so innocent questions. For instance: Why they leave better than we do while they don't even have oil? or Does their level of life has something to do with the democracy, secularism and the respect to the human rights? Not a single dictator in the world wants to face this type of questions. A decade of such a peace and the Arab world could have become what China and India is becoming now.
  14. Kathleen Degelder from WashingtonUSA, Canada writes: Gregg Vernon: Carter and the Carter Centre. Earmarks of the federal funding from the taxpayers? Israeli concessions have never worked. The Oslo Accord and the freeing of thousands of Palestinians. Did not create peace. Until Hezbollah stops the Katyusha rockets into Northern Israel, Hamas fired Qassam rockets from Gaza. Jordan and Egypt have a peace treaty with Israel. Hamas won't sign a peace treaty without more concessions from Israelis. It didn't stop with the Oslo Accord, what makes you think it will stop now. Israel will be giving Golen Heights back to Syria. That is a concession on the Israeli side. Sharon had removed his own people from Gaza. That still didn't appease Hamas. Read the 'Hamas Covenant'.
  15. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne was not amicably accepted by the Palestinians nor the treaties immediately following WWI including the first 'negotiations' for a Jewish homeland. The letter of agreement with King Saud and Chaim Weizmann has been disputed since day one.

    There will be no peace in the Middle East until all regional players sit at the same table excluding the external influences, i.e. the U.S., Great Britain, the oil companies .....
  16. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ian B: Greetings

    In 1948 Nationalism, whether European, Jewish, Arab, or Indian was at its peak.

    Nasser bragged that he was Arab first, African second, and Muslim third.

    All nationalisms have bit the dust. Nationalism stands for war. 120,000,000 died in Europe in 31 years (1914-45). Europe turned to the Community. Arabs are turning to Islam.

    Islam knows no borders, recognizes no countries, permits no nations. The Lord made the earth, man made borders. Islam stands for universality and peace.

    Had the Arabs accepted the deal in 1948 they would have been much worse. There would have been no Iranian Revolution, no Hezbollah, no Hamas, no Stalemate, only perpetual subjugation. Now they have Islamic renaissance. Today they have Stalemate. Tomorrow a Peace. Then Victory. They can have it all.

    The disbelievers plan, but the Lord also plans, and the Lord is the best of the Planners [VIII:30]
  17. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    A Middle East in turmoil serves Israel's interests. It will not negotiate in good faith until the U.S. cuts off financial and military aid.
    ****************************************************
    This is a fact and seems to be so obvious to me that I wonder why it is ignored by all the pundits, journalists & NorthAmerican politicians.
  18. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Kathleen Degelder from WashingtonUSA, Canada writes: Israeli concessions have never worked.
    *****************************************************Try this one for size, Kathleen Degelder from Washington,USA. Withdrawal of all Israelis, military and civilian, behind the 1967 borders and the return of the Golan heights to Syria. This would mean giving up all the conquered territory (as per UN resolution) as Germany did after 1945. If this ever happens we would wonder why so many people both Jew and Arab had to die in the name of Greater Israel.
  19. Ian B from Canada writes: Syed, I certainly agree with you, the Arab nationalism has failed miserably. But what about, let say, Chinese nationalism or Iranian nationalism. It looks like both are doing very well.
  20. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Jessica Adams from Canada writes: 'Why wasn't Germany made to give up land...'

    Germany lost over 40% of its pre-1914 territories by the end of part II of the Great War.
  21. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: light... writes:'This would mean giving up all the conquered territory (as per UN resolution) as Germany did after 1945.'

    Germany was forced to give up much of its own territory then conquered principally by the USSR.
  22. Toronto Bob from Canada writes: Bad analysis.

    As Patrick Martin notes, Syria has been offered everything Patrick Martin says Syria wants - i.e., complete return of the Golan Heights - but Syria turned down the offer.

    I think the real problem is that Syria doesn't want to be given the Golan Heights - Syria wants to take them back.

    Martin's mistake is to suppose that Syria values peace - it doesn't and never has. It values strength and regards the idea of trading land for peace as weakness.

    On the other hand, Syria has no desire for another humiliating defeat, so I think quiet (though not peace) is assured so long as Israel maintains its potent armed forces.
  23. Khalid Rahim from Canada writes: If Syria decides to go the same way as the Egypt and Jordan did, recover
    the territory and recognize Israel. Then the Palestinians will be left in a lurch. Israel will make sure that internal conflict between the Palestinians
    take massive swings. Hamas continues to be accused of violence and Fatah
    is fed with false hopes of a state, if they help IDF contain those who are rated as terrorists by the Alliance. Will members of Fatah agree to such a proposal. How would Riyadh react and influence the Emirates in the gulf.
    Syria would therefore not sign any treaty without the UN resolution of 1967 that wants complete withdrawl of Isreal from occupied territories
    including the settlements.
  24. David Simon from Canada writes: Since Dhimmi Carter won't talk with the leaders of a country he now considers an apartheid state, what difference will it make what he says in talks with Syria?

    I don't expect much will come about in talks between Rice and Assad and Rice and Olmert, but that's the only talks going on now.
  25. Justin Barer from Kingston, writes: First of all, I honestly do not believe that an Israeli retreat from the Golan will bring peace any more than the retreat from southern Lebanon did not bring Katyushas, or the retreat from Gaza did not bring daily Qassam rockets on the Western Negev and Ashkelon (6,000 and counting...). At most, a partial withdraw could be justified.

    Secondly, I believe that any honest and impartial arbiter would find, after a full perusal and accounting of all evidence, that Israel has more legitimate legal claim to the Golan than Syria.

    Putting aside for a moment the archaeological and historical records of Jewish life in the Golan dating back thousands of years, there are a number of issues that lend credence to modern Israel's ownership claims.

    1. Under international laws of war, lands captured and annexed following a battle of self defense will legally be recognized as belonging to the victor. This law applies to the Golan. Syria broke the 1949 armistice agreement some 400 times between 1949 and 1967, using the Golan to shell and snipe communities below. Syria launched full-scale military aggression against Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Through these acts, Syria forfeits any claim to the Golan.

    2. There is legal question on the status of the Golan belonging to Syria in the first place. In 1939, France detached Sanjak of Alexandretta from Syria and ceded it to Turkey. To date, Syria - the successor state to the French mandate in 1946 - does not recognize this transfer as legal. Similarly, in 1923, Britain transferred the Golan from their Mandate to the French Mandate after lobbying from French land owners. Pre-1923, the Golan was clearly part of the British Mandate and all document show it was to be part of the future Jewish state. Like Alexandretta, the Golan is thus an area of dispute. Israel can insist on its right to the latter just as the Syrians can insist on the return of the former.
  26. Ian B from Canada writes: Similarly to the Nazi Germany, Syria started the war and lost the territory as a result of this war. This means that the territory can be returned back to Syria only as a part of the peace agreement between the two sides. There is no other legal avenue that can be used by Syria to get the territory back. The UN SC resolutions do not define the avenue but proclaim the same principle: the territory in return to peace. Egypt and Jordan have followed this path. Syria didn’t.
  27. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Gardiner Westbound, Better to light: Greetings

    “ ... A Middle East in turmoil serves Israel's interests...”
    The turmoil serves no one’s interests except Corporate Capitalism and their supporters. More armaments to sell, fewer small businessmen to compete with, more people to divide, more profits to make.

    The Republicans and their Jihadi and Zionist supporters all thrive on conflict. Leaders of peace, Sadat, Rabin, and B Bhutto, all were done in by killers who were either then or at one time Republican hirelings.

    Until the Israelis realize that they are victims just like the others, there will never be peace, unless enforced by Providence.
  28. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ian B: Hi

    ' ... Syed, I certainly agree with you, the Arab nationalism has failed miserably. But what about, let say, Chinese nationalism or Iranian nationalism. It looks like both are doing very well....'

    Neither Chinese nor Iranian ideologies are nationalist.

    Chinese communism split from the USSR precisely because of the latter's growing tendency towards nationalism. The Soviets were turning increasingly Russian, but China maintained an internationalist stance. Russia lost, China won.

    Khomeini was the first Iranian to bust Pahlavi Nationalist balloon. He based his ideology first on pan-Islamism, forging Shia-Sunni ties, and second on the right of oppressed worldwide. The road on which British Embassy is located was named after the Irish martyr Bobby Sands, annual holiday declared for Jerusalem day, an Arab demand, etc. etc. That is why both ideologies are thriving.
  29. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Justin Barer from Kingston, writes:'... accounting of all evidence, that Israel has more legitimate legal claim to the Golan than Syria.'

    Looking to the past will not solve the problems of the present, nor lead anyone into a brighter future.

    Returning Golan to Syria would not in itself solve all the problems of the middle east, but it would take out one major irritant. It probably could not be done without addressing the disposition of the West Bank and Gaza, ie, the creation of a Palestinian state.
  30. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Justin Barer from Kingston, writes: First of all, I honestly do not believe that an Israeli retreat from the Golan will bring peace any more than the retreat from southern Lebanon did not bring Katyushas, or the retreat from Gaza did not bring daily Qassam rockets on the Western Negev and Ashkelon (6,000 and counting...). At most, a partial withdraw could be justified.
    *****************************************************
    Unilateral withdrawal from Haza was not calculate to bring peace but was engineered due to the expense and problem of having protective troops in both conquered Gaza and conquered West Bank. But a peace treaty which would mean withdrawal of all Israeli troops from Palestinan lands in the West Bank and Gaza and Syria and sharing of Jerusalem with the the Palestinians and the recognition that the Palestinians DO exist and have a right to self-determinationj would bring peace.That has not been done because Israeli politicians cannot give up the idea of greater Israel. Adolf had the same problem and died promoting it.
    CYMRO
  31. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:'Khomeini... based his ideology first on pan-Islamism, forging Shia-Sunni ties, and second on the right of oppressed worldwide.'

    Khomeini slaughtered tens of thousands of Iranian youth in suicidal frontal attacks against prepared Iraqi defensive positions in a nationalist war over control of the Shatt al Arab, plus oppressed hundreds of thousands of Iranians who would not cleave to his fascist control.

    Current Iranian nationalism leans toward making that country a local great Power once again, and dominating adjacent countries if not actually aiming to conquer at least some of them in a revival of the old Persian Empires of the past.
  32. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Syed - y'know what? Corruption of ideals exists everywhere, including in the Muslim world. Contrary to what you seem to indicate, I see the possibility of a blend of values in future, stemming from a greater understanding between various world cultures - including Islam, of course.

    There isn't one 'perfect' system that exists today, IMHO, since each cultural group has it's own expectations and preferences - complete hegemony of one system over all others is bound to require tyranny - and therefore war.

    The most effective way forward, I think, is a stronger, much more independent Islamic world which can control it's own destiny, rather than being dictated to by neocolonial forces - which will require a growth in trust and respect from the West.

    But as far as a country like Canada becoming an Islamic nation, for example, I assure you that is highly unlikely, at least for many, many generations. It's not our culture.

    I personally have a deep respect for world cultures of all types, and do not regard any one being inherently superior to another - they all reflect the genius and flaws of humans - perhaps you could say they are all equally divine, if that's the way you view things (I don't). Even the 'negative' things we abhor are part of human nature, and a shared inheritance - they are merely shaped and amplified by our cultures to varying degrees.

    I don't expect you to agree to what I've just written, just wanted to counterbalance your convictions with some equally strong, but different convictions. I am not a follower of any particular organized religion although I certainly recognize that humans are not anywhere near the highest power in the universe, nor even on the planet - but I think human wisdom and knowledge is increasing rapidly and we can transcend our differences through mutual respect.
    But will we? One can only hope.

    I hope you enjoy this day.
  33. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    GlynnMhor: Hi

    ' .... Current Iranian nationalism leans toward making that country a local great Power once again, and dominating adjacent countries if not actually aiming to conquer at least some of them in a revival of the old Persian Empires of the past....'

    That was Reza Shah's dream - to make Iran the 5th largest power in the world. He explicitly stated it as a goal.

    I have not seen anywhere the present stated goals of the Iranian leadership to be anything like that. However, if you think that you perceive their goals to be so, then I value your opinion, though I may not agree with it.
  34. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: I see elsewhere the comments of Dr. Rice, regarding the roadmap and Israeli settlements. Of course it is most welcome that Israel be strongly discouraged from continuing to build on occupied territories - one could quip that Israel has no hidden agenda, because the agenda is out in the open, for all to see!

    I see much talk about the West Bank, but none about Gaza! There can be no peace without Gaza and Hamas being part of the equation, IMHO. Some 60% of Israeli citizens accept that negotiation with Hamas should happen - it would seem NOW would be the time. Even Mr. Abbas is getting pessimistic, and that's really saying something.

    I just wish that the globe would open up comments on that subject - it is disappointing that they are stifling debate.
  35. been there from Toronto, Canada writes: Continued isolation of Syria and writing them off as an irredeemable client of the Iranian Mullahs is certainly not a step towards peace.

    Returning Golan is critical for a peace treaty between Israel and Syria but is itself is not sufficient -- what is needed is a willingness to provide economic aid to Syria to wrestle them out of the orbit of the Mullahs. This has not been done -- instead, the current Western and Israeli strategy is to isolate and demonize them more in the hopes of more internal strife to topple the younger Assad -- it is unclear that this will have any more effect other than the Syrian pullback from Lebanon that has already happened.

    But if Syria reaches peace with Israel (as had Jordan, Egypt, with Lebanon being a non-player since it is a vassal of all the others), then the pressure will be on Israel to be serious once again about a Palestinian state.

    This is something that Israel in its current domestic political climate doesn't want to do. It is clearly in their interest to play victim while continuing the conflict to buy time.
  36. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: My computer suddenly died while I was finishing my post, so I'll repost just in case...

    I note that Dr. Rice is pressuring Israel about West Bank settlements being an obstacle to a peace agreement. It's refreshing to see some effort made to address that problem, although I see that nothing is mentioned about the Gaza situation.

    I fail to see how peace can be achieved without dealing with Gaza and Hamas. Considering that some 60% of Israeli citizens believe that negotiations should take place with Hamas, there should be support to do so.

    I do wish the globe would open comments on this subject, instead of stifling debate on the issue.
  37. Al B from Toronto, Canada writes: Barer, there is no such law and you know it. The Golan, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, all have status as occupied territories. No intellectual dishonesty will change that.
  38. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: light... writes: '... a peace treaty which would mean withdrawal of all Israeli troops from Palestinan lands in the West Bank and Gaza and Syria and sharing of Jerusalem... would bring peace.'

    It's not at all clear that such an arrangement would be guaranteed to bring peace, and the other hand it's also possible that peace could be created with a more moderate agreement, without having Israel abandon quite as much.
  39. Ian B from Canada writes: K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: If you listen to neo-con propaganda, it is not the methods used by terrorists/islamic countries that they abhor. It's that it is used against the west that bugs them.
    >>>>
    This is so not true, but this of course fits your propaganda strategy. The West condemns the Sunni - Shia killings in Iraq, genocide in Darfur, slavery in Africa, etc. But the killers there have so many apologists here and there that suggest that this is a right of those people to kill each other and the West should stay away of this, that it is almost impossible to stop the carnage.
  40. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: One fact that is not mentioned here is that while Arabs can live as full citizens in Israel, Jews are not allowed to live in Arab countries such as Jordan. Both Jordan and Egypt made deals with Israel - neither benefitted the Palestinians in any way - why not? They did not care about the Palestinians. It is the Arab countries that continue to keep the 'palestinians' in camps as a pawn in their power struggle with Israel. Arab countries chose terrorism as a strategy because with their combined forces they could never defeat the Israeli military.

    It is an unfortunate fact but after 60 years Israel is faced with a choice of continuing to be a 'Jewish' or being a democratic state - demographics dictate that Israel cannot be both. Of course they will be highly criticized if they choose to be a 'Jewish' state. One of the reasons the 'right of return' has been considered important for palestinians is because they know they can destroy Israel from within just by sheer force of numbers.
  41. William Gloucester from Canada writes: 'Isa 17:1 An oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease to be a city and will become a heap of ruins.'

    This prophecy, unlike many other Old Testament prophesies has never been fulfilled throughout history. Eventually Syria will reveal itself for what it truly is: a nation that seeks the destruction of peaceful Israel but will tragically ensure its own demise.

    Providence saved the day for Israel many times throughout its history. Never before has a small nation faced such overwhelming odds not only to keep on surviving but thriving! The Arabs have been defeated decisively in the past by tiny Israel, and will be once again. In the 'end time,' Israel will eternally assume her spiritual and cultural place as the center of the earth. The hostile Ishmaelites will once and for all demonstrate that they are just as deceived as the Nazis, who followed a false system of murderous beliefs.

    As a Christian, I pray for Israel and her prosperity everyday!
  42. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: All of these conditions on peace are ridiculous. Concessions and includsions come much later. Both sides need to begin negotiating with those things that they can agree on today. !. Everyone, except cirminals, wants peace. 2. Everyone wants to be treated fairly. 3. Everyone wants safety, education, medical care, trade, commerce, jobs. 4. The Palestinians want compensation for unfairness foisted on them in 1948. 5. It is not only the responsibility of Israel to foot this bill. 6. It is the responsibility of all of the WWII allies who sponsored it the partition in the late 1940s. 7. I think Israel is right to hammer back at any aggression. 8. Isreal would get better results by augmenting that strategy with the forging of positive relations where it can, through incentives. 8. A medical clinic here and there, small enterprise support, and offering a world view that would give Palestinians dignity, will eventually turn the tide. 9. We have to remember that most people care little for violence and are never involved in it. 10. They will not speak out until it is safe to do so, but it is a given that more than 90 if not 95% of Palestinians are ready to take part in a fiar settlement. 11. I think that should include payment and financial opportunities, preferably in tandem with a responsible Palestinian authority to organize an effective economy. 12. Safe ways must be found for ordinary citizens on both sides to express their views and oust insurgents who are blocking the way. 13. Debate can occur always, provided the public interest of all, is the underlying theme. 14. Say anything as long as you show me first how it benefits a fair and peaceful outcome for both sides. 15. Progress would be rapid with the neutralization of terrorists. 16. As most people are poor, wouldn't a reward system and safe tipster campaign be logical at some point? 17. Public polling seems to be the best route to generate citizen discussion. 18. Terrorism dissipates without public acqiescence.
  43. Ian B from Canada writes: Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: they will be highly criticized if they choose to be a 'Jewish' state.
    >>>
    No more than Germany for being a German state or The Netherlands for being a Dutch state or Greece for being a Greek state or the Arab states for being Arab or Iraq, Iran and about other at least 40 countries for deriving their constitutions from Sharia law. Long before Israel will face this particular problem lots of lessons to learn will be coming from Europe. Let see how Europe is going to address this.
  44. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Israel must close the door on all but the most basic Palestinian access until Palestinians end terrorist attacks on Israel or at least provide information on the whereabouts of these terrorists so Israel can remove them. It is entirely reasonable to say: If you want access, end the violence! The world benefits when Israel takes a firm stand on violence.
  45. Ian B from Canada writes: Israel was within the 1967 borders before 1967. For some reasons this did not provide peace. The Palestine Liberation Organization was created before 1967, which is before the occupation. We all know what they were going to liberate from. The reason is why the latest Arab initiative is so empty is because it doesn't provide guarantees that this time around the 1967 border will be more peaceful then before 1967. The lesson Israel learned from Lebanon is that even if you don't occupy a single square inch of a neighboring country there is no guarantee it will not commit aggression against you. So much for encouraging going back to the 1967 borders.
  46. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Hi Catherine Madernach. I would be surprised if many Palestrinians would forego a generous settlement for the 'right of return'. In any event, it must be the eventual goal of all countries to have entrenched constitutions with equally entrenched and enforceable human rights.
  47. sidney Goldberg from writes: Talks are underway between Syria and Israel currently. Egypt is also talking to Israel on behalf of Hamas. The so called truce will likely take place for 90 days or untill Islamic Jihad, PLO or some other Palestinians shoot rockets into Sederot or Askelon. Syria will make peace with Israel because it's economy is a disaster and it needs aid. Iran will not provide it because it's own economy is in shambles. Syria could care less about the Palestinians. Unlike Lebannon which was carved away from them, the Palestinians are not part of their family. The Palestinians will likely make a peace deal that includes the West Bank and may not include Gaza. The only way Gaza is included is when Hamas figures out Israel is not going away. Peace with Lebannon's Christian community could come tommorrow just pick up a copy of the Jerusalem Post and note how many letters to the editor come from Beruit or read the Lebanese Star. Peace with Hezbollah will not come because they have a puppet master in charge. By the way a Palestinian living in Lebannon or Syria may not work in the professional area's or government. They do work in those area's in Israel. As for Syeds dream that we all convert to Islam, don't bet on it, that is his typical Shia wish and really of little interest to Canada or the US. In England they are also getting very tired of the push to accommodate as they are in France. Lets see a country where women are free to go to college and work and a religion that wants them to take orders. Sorry Sayed I love Canada because it lets both of us express an opinion, which is also true in Israel. Sydney Joel Goldberg
  48. been there from Toronto, Canada writes: There are a lot of ill-informed and biased opinions here, but Catherine Medernach's is the most disingenuous and must be addressed.

    This sad chapter of history started with the European land grab from collapsing Ottoman empire leaving a power vacuum for the people, both Palestinian Arabs (both Muslims and Christians) and Jews, who co-existed for a long time in the Levant.

    It is an inescapable fact the modern state of Israel was created by a communal war that led to the displacement of a number of Palestinians from inside what are now Israeli borders without an equal creation of a Palestinian state or any other form of redress.

    This is the root cause of the long-term instability and conflict and until this is resolved, it is hard to see how there could be peace.

    It is easy to forget through the past half-century of headlines that Jews, Arabs and other Muslims have long lived with each other from Morocco to Persia peacefully since biblical times.

    At no time were the groups as antagonistic and acrimonious as they are today. Despite the propaganda on all sides, there is nothing fundamental between the groups to stop them from achieving peace.

    It is the outsiders, from the Balfour declarations to American-Soviet cold war calculations to regional Middle-East jockeying (particularly mullah-led Iran versus the Arab oil states), and increasingly, various religious groups that are fanning the flames and gaining profits and geopolitical advantage from it.

    At heart, this is a land dispute that needs a pragmatic resolution between the Israelis and Palestinians despite the bitter history over the past 80 years.

    The fewer the number of outside excuses and meddling, the faster the road to peace.
  49. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes:'The Palestinians want compensation for unfairness foisted on them in 1948. 5. It is not only the responsibility of Israel to foot this bill. 6. It is the responsibility of all of the WWII allies who sponsored it the partition in the late 1940s.'

    Why would or should the Palestinians care one way or another whose money is used to compensate them for their lost land and other property?

    Obviously the ones who left Israel around 1948 aren't coming back to Israel proper, so it'll have to be money or other land, perhaps West Bank land.
  50. William Gloucester from Canada writes: been there from toronto says:

    'It is easy to forget through the past half-century of headlines that Jews, Arabs and other Muslims have long lived with each other from Morocco to Persia peacefully since biblical times.'

    Absolute historical revisionism. Jews and Christians have been persecuted and relegated to second class citizens in every Muslim dominated state throughout history. If you wish I will post hard data...

    The Jews deserve an independent state more than any other people throughout history. They live on a small sliver of land, whereas the Ishmaelites possess the vast surrounding areas. As much as I feel for the displaced people after the partition of the Holy Land, both sides suffered displacement, and now we have to face de facto realities and not give opportunity to rabid antisemitism, under the pretext of war-time grievances. This antisemitism was a fact of life both before and after 1948, and that friends is the plain truth.
  51. been there from Toronto, Canada writes: William Gloucester seems to be ignorant of the facts that there were 500,000 Jews living in Morocco before Israel existed, 85,000 Jews in Iran under the Shah (with flights on El Al between Tehran and Tel Aviv), 105,000 Jews in Tunisia in 1948, etc. etc.

    They may not have always enjoyed equality and were persecuted at times, but do I need to remind you of what happened to Jews in Europe from before the Spanish Inquisition through to the progroms in Russia or the Dreyfuss affair in France or anything else that happened in Europe?

    Whether or not the Jews were better off or worse off in Europe or in North Africa or the Middle East is a debate of opinion of history which I will not go into, but the fact that such large numbers existed in North Africa or the Middle East clearly shows they coexistence was at least tolerable.

    The question is not whether the Jewish people deserve their own country or not, or even whether things can ever be restored to a particular time in history (they cannot).

    The issue is simply a matter of a land dispute that has happened in a sufficiently satisfactory way to prevent continuous wars small and large and escalating instability.

    Everything else is revisionist history.
  52. William Gloucester from Canada writes: been there,

    How do you define 'tolerable?' Do you mean the absence of outright murder?

    I recommend a great book or DVD called 'The Sword and the Prophet' which chronicles Jewish and Christian life in Islamic countries. It is co-written by former Muslims who have converted to Christianity, as well as Jews and Christians themselves--real eye opener.
  53. skeptical Observer from Canada writes: I cannot fathom why people such as william bring religious scriptures calling for the destruction of damascus into this. And actually yes damascus was once destroyed in a large earthquake that killed hundreds of thousands. that jus lew your religious hypothesis out of the sky didnt it!
  54. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Byron Rottweiler: Hi

    “ ... Corruption of ideals .. including .. Muslim ...”

    Hitherto religions were viewed as ideologies or spiritual or political movements. But they are economic constructs that adapt to environment. Islam of Mohammed, suited to trade era, had to sub-optimize outside 7th century Arabia to mostly agrarian world. “Corruption” was a must.

    Interesting work by Jean Ensminger 'Transaction Costs and Islam: Explaining Conversion in Africa.

    “ ... isn't one 'perfect' system that exists .. “

    Every system IS perfect for its environment as People find the best way to survive, grow, and evolve.

    “ .. Canada becoming an Islamic nation, for example .. is highly unlikely ..”

    Islam targets Individuals. Canada, Pakistan or Iran can not become “Muslim”. But therein those who follow Koranic and Mohammedan strategy will thrive in the coming Global Trade era. Others will lead sub-optimal lives.

    My point was that 'Muslims' are becoming Mohammedan.
    Cheers
  55. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Syed, thanks for the response.

    William Gloucester and others - you believe in the righteousness of the creation of Israel, which is perfectly acceptable, and is no doubt based partly on a recognition of international law, the UN charter, etc. which support various people's rights to self-determination and to live in peace.

    These rights should not be blocked by any party, and cannot legitimately be denied - they are inalienable.

    But the same is true for the Palestinians in equal measure - they have exactly the same rights to have their state, as decreed in resolution 181. They have, as refugees, a recognized right of return, which must be dealt with in a just manner. That probably means land swaps and financial compensation, not a return to their ancestral villages (which no longer exist) in Israel.

    If you find yourself supporting an excuse to deny them their rights, you are being unfair, and unjust, IMHO, as you would undoubtedly not agree to the same thing being done to Israel or Jews.
    It doesn't matter if Palestinians are angry, if a portion are resorting to violent struggle, any of that sort of thing; nothing should legitimately interfere with their rights.

    I would remind you that violent Jewish groups terrorized their opponents before Israel was created, and eventually (due to ethnic war)100's of thousands of Palestinians were forced to flee their homes, never to return.
    This did not disqualify Israel from existing, did it?

    Further denial of Palestinian rights will do nothing to bring peace.
  56. Kathleen Degelder from WashingtonUSA, Canada writes: Better to light a small candle: Read the 'Hamas Covenent'
  57. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Toronto Bob from Canada writes: Bad analysis.
    As Patrick Martin notes, Syria has been offered everything Patrick Martin says Syria wants - i.e., complete return of the Golan Heights - but Syria turned down the offer.
    I think the real problem is that Syria doesn't want to be given the Golan Heights.
    **************************************************
    Syria does want the Golan Heights back but it is unwilling to throw the Palestinians overboard. Was the attempt to drive a wedge issue between the Syrians and the Palestinians dreamed up by some smart Israeli lawyer? I hold no brief for Syria but give themcredit for having some intelligence.
    CYMRO
  58. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes:
    I see much talk about the West Bank, but none about Gaza! There can be no peace without Gaza and Hamas being part of the equation, IMHO. Some 60% of Israeli citizens accept that negotiation with Hamas should happen - it would seem NOW would be the time.
    ****************************************************
    Exactly. President Carter is on the right track and is therefore much reviled by the both media and Jews in North America. (Not in Israel since Israelis have a much larger stake in peace than Jews in the diaspora.) Peace is not the preferred option by some if it means giving up either land or illegal settlements.
    CYMRO
  59. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Kathleen Degelder from WashingtonUSA, Canada writes: Better to light a small candle: Read the 'Hamas Covenent' (sic)
    ***********************************************
    That's a cop out. As to concessions why would the list I made not produce peace. It would do much to restore the reputation of Israel in the world community which is at its nadir. Read what Jesus said about peacemakers.
    CYMRO
  60. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes:'... violent struggle, any of that sort of thing; nothing should legitimately interfere with their rights.'

    This is just silly. If Hamas and its ilk took the effort to stop the violence then the chances of getting some progress would increase considerably. Nobody is going to try to enforce some sort of abstract 'rights' as long as even starting to do so is just going to create more violence.
  61. west slope from Greater Vancouver, Canada writes:

    Natural gas and oil may provide Israel with incentive to kiss and make up with Syria.
  62. Hey, that's my armadillo, get your own. from Canada writes: Did anybody read the article?
  63. west slope from Greater Vancouver, Canada writes:

    The Israelis are the last in a long line of bloodthirsty European colonial warriors.

    Here's the hard choice:

    The Golan Heights and Jewish cowboys,

    or secure access to Syrian natural gas and oil?

    What'll it be?

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