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Selling off the TTC is back on the table. Is it time?

TENILLE BONOGUORE

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 12:29 AM EDT 03/05/08

'It is large; it's expensive … it doesn't adapt' ...Read the full article

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  1. joe 6 pk from Canada writes: do what ever it takes ...

    to get COST/WAGES ...

    back into reality ...
  2. joe 6 pk from Canada writes: ttc will never be a gem ....

    as long as miller is ...

    around ....

    PERIOD.
  3. joe 6 pk from Canada writes: AUTOMATE ALL FUNCTIONS ...

    ticket booths ....

    trains ....

    CUT ADMINISTRATION IN HALF ....

    cut fare in half .....

    DO IT NOW, FORTHWITH ....
  4. Maple Leaf from Canada writes: Sell TTC...split the unions...
    I am sick and tired of these greedy unions taking public transit users taking pawns in their greed game.

    Union rights? Yeah right...advocating for rights was 50 years ago...it's all about GREED nowdays....and I'm paying for it...but NOT getting the service for it...

    Some years ago...I thought Toronto had better transit system than Vancouver did...
    Nowadays, Vancouver has much MUCH BETTER transit system than Toronto...We have at least twice the population but less subway routes and crappier bus services!

    Overhaul the damn TTC...in every way!!!

    Visit New York, Tokyo, London, and Paris...they have FAR FAR BETTER AND EFFICIENT BUS & SUBWAY SYSTEM THAN US...Our system is world class? Where the h*ll have you been for last 5 years~
  5. Josh Gould from Canada writes: Maple Leaf, Vancouver has had lengthy transit strikes in the past 10 years - is that what you're looking for in Toronto?

    Moreover, the Skytrain routes are only now being expanded for the Olympics, and they will continue to carry fewer passengers than the subway. The TTC is a gem in comparison to almost any transit service in the country, and if TO had gotten the 2008 Olympics, you can be sure that we'd already have new subway or LRT lines. (We'll have the latter either way.)

    Anyway, I'm stunned that this article is actually soliciting Rob Ford's opinion on the TTC - why does anyone care what this clown of a hack politician thinks about anything?
  6. Justin Ma from Scarborough, writes: I was just thinking about this today. It's definitely worth discussing. Many systems in the world have modern (Toronto is literally about 20 years behind), yet affordable transit systems; certainly some credit is due to privatization in some cities...not sure if it's duplicable in Toronto, but it's worth a look.
  7. Joe V from Canada writes: Fire them all.
  8. Tony D from Canada writes: Miller is a dope. '...TTC will lead AGAIN.....' When did it lead, for it to lead again?! Miller lives in his fairy world, the sh!t he's smoking must be excellent!
  9. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes:
    In the words of Ben Stiller: 'Do it. Do it!'
  10. Jack Smith from Canada writes: London's bus fares are down because of the (former) Mayor, not because of private bus company efficiency. Same thing goes for why bus travel is better than the tube sometimes - the congestion charge means they're running faster than ever before.

    Not exactly an argument for privatization - not that I'd actually imply that the CD Howe institute and its think-tank brothers and sisters actually care about facts.
  11. Robert Rivers from France writes: IF you have had the chance to visit most of the European systems, even some of the smallest towns are outstripping the TTC.

    I remember a conversation one day in Toronto with a friend from France who noted... this is a 'ancient' transit system. I laughed because I had no idea what she meant. Then I visited France and while... TTC is an ancient system that has not changed for the past thirty to forty years.

    I can give an analogy it is the difference between an old computer that is the size of the room and at one time did not take up much electricity but in the present day the costs to maintain this monstrous machine are so high you have to raise fares almost every six months when you should just find a more economic solution.
  12. matthew thomas from United Kingdom writes: Public transport was privatised here in London years ago and it has been a disaster. It is expensive and poorly run. Private companies are interested in profits and not in providing a service. They know transport is a necessaity so they cream of shareholder and head office profits and then demand money from the government to keep the system going. It has become a licence to print money. The public gets an inferior service that still costs it and has no say in how it is run. A lose lose situation. The 'private is better' mantra cannot work with necessary public services. This small town mentality in thinking about Toronto has got to end. It is a major city and has major city responsibilities. Life is expensive if you want a city with first rate infrastructure. Time to stick a crowbar in the old wallet and start paying for it.
  13. the vegan ninja from Canada writes: The transit problem is complex, esp. due to the tradtional lack of urban planning, and rampant urban sprawl and car culture that has made efficiency impossible. These are imbeded problems that we are just beginning to pay for - big time.
  14. Tony Burson from The centre of the Canadian universe, Canada writes: The politicians in Toronto have long demonstrated an inability to manage the TTC. It has battled with every General Manager over the years, blocking ideas and improvements that did not emanate from an office at City Hall.
    Put this into private hands and let market forces regulate the costs of a ticket. That a person can travel from the Toronto Zoo in Scarborough to the border of Mississauga in Clarkson for the price of a ticket is ludicrous and no way reflects the cost.
    Privatization is a must, get the city out of the transit business and into what it should be doing, roads, sewers, water and planning.
  15. Kevin Desmoulin from Toronto, Canada writes: Just hire the right people for the job that realize that the TTC is a job that goes beyond themselves, It is a service that Toronto and torontonians need any day with out fail.
    I am not for calling it an essential service on the par as the Police.
    When I got on the TTC last Monday, Their was this thing to smile and say thax for being back on the job. Meanwhile as I am trying to do this, I putting up with sour faces from the TTC workers.

    You get what you put out. I feel for the TTC workers and will stand up on the street car to get one a hand with some unruly passenger.

    But you workers have to realize that you are one of 10,000 that work for a service that is needed with out fail for your follow citizens and the city that you live in and work in.

    Now the TTC has to renegotiate the contract all over again, more disconnect from the support the union was originally trying to get from the ridership.

    Ya good move, contact out some of the TTC services, maybe the janitorial staff would the best start.
  16. Aaron Park from Toronto, Canada writes: I have recently come from Seoul, South Korea. It is really sad to compare the transit system in Toronto with the one that exists there, especially when one considers that Seoul was pretty much destroyed 60 years ago and Korea had the world's worst economy. I think Toronto could learn a lot from some of the larger Asian cities, because they know how to operate a large and complex transit system.
  17. donald pettigrew from Toronto, writes: What to do with the T.T.C.???
    PRIVATIZE! PRIVATIZE! PRIVATIZE!
    The stations are filthy so privatize the
    cleaning staff, for a start. Then go on.
    Miller and his left wing NDP cronies are ruining this city. The quicker we get rid of this cabal the better.
    Rob Ford speaks his mind and is castigated
    because he speaks the truth about the waste.
  18. David K from Guelph, Canada writes: The chickens are coming home to roost. The TTC should have been expanding along with the city but all they have done for the past 30 odd years is add the Sheppard line (more like a siding) and more bus routes. This does not make for RAPID transit and that is what people need in order to get them out of their cars. Why stand in a bus when you could be sitting in your car in the same traffic jam? The problem is down to lousy planning and the pinch fisted approach of Ottawa and Queen's Park to transit funding. Will privatization solve anything, doubt it. The London situation does not really help as the buses there are new and the trains on the underground are vintage stuff by comparison therefore less clean and comfortable. The GTA needs a comprehensive transit policy with rapid transit lines from Oakville to Ajax to Markham running in all directions not just downtown. This will take a political will that does not currently exist so don't hold your breath waiting for change.
  19. David Browne from Toronto, Canada writes: Once again as with the health care system, the education system and public utilities, there is a pattern here. Governments begin starving these systems of funding to facilitate among other things, tax cuts. This then leaves these services short of funding leading to serious problems in delivering the service. The idea is then floated about the 'need' to obtain private funding to bring the service back to its previous high standards. These services are absolutely necessary and are as a business a huge source of income. No wonder the private sector wants to get its hands on these public utilities. Private funding does not come cheap. Privatization is no bargain for the people. Instead of operating at cost, even though the cost is necessarily increasing, a private operated system operates at cost profit and is invariably more expensive. Privatization does not bring better service or more reasonable prices for consumers. It simply treats a necessary service as just another commodity. No thank you. Let's look at renewed public funding.
  20. donald pettigrew from writes: What to do with the T.T.C.???
    PRIVATIZE! PRIVATIZE! PRIVATIZE!
    The stations are filthy so privatize the
    cleaning staff, for a start. Then go on.
    Miller and his left wing NDP cronies are ruining this city. The quicker we get rid of this cabal the better.
    Rob Ford speaks his mind and is castigated
    because he speaks the truth about the waste.
  21. B. Geo'ff from Canada writes: The TTC was created in 1920 which was an amalgamation of several private bus companies. The problem with the TTC is that it is operating on the least subsidy on this continent and probably the least subsidy in the world. It is true that the TTC system has fallen behind. The TTC is noted for stretching the dollar. It has a history of refurbishing vehicles. The PCC streetcars that were in operation before the present CLRV were bought used from US transit operators who were getting out of the streetcar business. Ironically it was GM that was behind the privatization of transit operators in the U.S. They were doing that so that it would have a market for their business. The TTC has finished retiring it fleet of GM buses which were in operation for an average of 20 years or more. Most transit operators retired their buses at 15 years of age.
    In short you get what you pay for !!!
  22. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: I think TTC authorities lie outright when they claim Toronto receives lower subsidies per ride than many US transit systems. In fact, U.S. transit systems tend to receive only a larger up-front injection of funds and very modest matching funds after that. Here transit authorities conveniently swap figures to pretend that intiitial US injections are the ongoing subsidies. Not so. Accurate comparisons are basic to improving TTC operations and management. When will we get those?
  23. P Conner from toronto, Canada writes: A typical strategy among the neo cons; deprive a public asset of funding then wail to the sym pathetic press that it is broken and must be sold or destroyed. Hogwash. To have a modern efficient transit system you need supportive government and proper funding. I suggest we get on with it. Stop giving Mr Ford and his cronies press!
  24. brokeback mountain from Canada writes: how could u not make money when it is a monopoly? the subway system in hong kong is privatized and works beautifully
  25. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: I think $5.50 for a single round-trip ride is pretty substantial funding, espeically with officials now sayng there are 1.5m one-way rides a day. How much income could the TTC gain by more than doubling its streetcar riders by setting up rushhour auto restrictions on these routes and doubling transit vehicles - be they streetcars or buses? As rush-hour restrictions on autos would also double transit speed, Torontonians would flock to the TTC to get to work quickly. It could be a low-cost opportunity to rake in substantial income if set up and managed properly. For example, the city could request motorists' co-operation and use buses to augment streetcars, to get the program off the ground at NO cost.
  26. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Another way to double streetcar capacity at no cost would be to take one set of parallel cars, such as either the Queen or King streetcars, and steer vehicles on both lanes downtown during morning rush hours and then away from downtown in the afternoon ruush hour. For patron safety, curbside streetcars could simply always stop well behind the length of the now-reversed, but far fewer inside-lane streetcar stops. The result would be a doubling of rush-hour capacity at no cost. It would work here as those traveling in opposite directions could easily walk three blocks to find regular routes. Further, the inside streetcars could easily then be allocated as express vehicles with few stops, perhaps one per km, ramping up efficiency even more. It's a no-brainer.
  27. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: To fund the expansion of their subways, both New York and now L.A. imposed a tiny sales tax. In L.A. a 1-cent tax was recently passed. This then funds the project without delay and without looking to taxpayers who will never come to L.A.
  28. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Continuing, It occurs to me that in this rush-hour strategy can be accelerated more by allocating the lane on the side of the street with the reversed rush-hour streetcar to cyclists, mopeds and Vespas. For example, between Yonge St. and High Park, in the mornig rush, the north lane could become an east-bound bicycle lane with the streetcar in the north lane also going east-bound. Greatest efficiency would then be obtained by completely banning the few hundred vehicles that normally clog up the east-bound lane of Queen Street (the south lane that travels east-west) )during the morning rush. The only remaining impedient to transit and bike flow would be north-south traffic that intersects it. This is already controlled by streetcar control of these lights. Fast, easy and inexpensive, but with exponentially ramped up profits!
  29. Doug Lippay from Sunderland, Canada writes: Good to see that Mr. Vern is content with the level of service that the TTC provides him. From less than pristine levels of cleanliness, to surly ticket booth attendants, to MIA subway trains.

    If he is content and happy with the current level of service, that perhaps explains his boorish comments.
  30. Jay Dubya from Toronto, Canada writes: Aboslutely. Things can only get better. The TTC Union has held the riders and citizens hostage long enough.

  31. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: The TTC used to have a distance-based fare structure. As in the farther you rode, the more you paid. At that time they needed no subsidy of any sort. The decison to go to a single-fare structure was made in the mid 1960's for a combination of social and political reasons. Not least of which was the need to move large numbers of workers around the city. There were far fwer cars on the road back then. It was clearly understood at the time, by both the muncipal and provincial governemnts that this would require financial support from the province. Which is what was set up. The biggest opperational consequence of the single fare system was a large increase in ridership. Which eventually led to expansion of the system. This talk of privatizing the TTC is foolish. It completely ignores why the TTC was formed as a public service in the first place, and the economics and politics have NOT changed. See also the fiasco with the 407 for a clear example. A higher level of automation would certainly help reduce some operating costs, but that's not the whole picture. Comparing the TTC to Asian systems is apples to oranges. For starters, unions are not anywhere as powerful in Asia as they are here, and those countries are much more authoritarian. People here wouldn't stand for the social control stuff that is 'normal' - even in Japan, which is the most democratic of the lot. Hong Kong is under Communist rule, and Singapoor is quite the dictatorship. Korea is no paragon either. And don't forget the vertical and horizontal integration of the Asian economies. Not to mention the politics. As for Europe, well the level of regulation there, which is one of the things that makes their systems possible, would make most of the pundits here scream in rage. Besides which, Europe has a masssive and expensive welfare system, to deal with the permanently unemployed. How keen are you to set that up here? The UK is an interesting mix. Some parts are doing very well, but overall it's mediocre.
  32. The Bubble from Canada writes: This is what I do. I bet I could cut the twenty percent in half in about a year. There's never been a company I've worked for that wasn't efficiently administered especially when it came to paperwork and I always posted my tests and assignments, marking schemes etc on a common drive for my students who, quite often lose them. Schools sometimes use half or more of their budgets for paper, lot's of photocopying going on. I'd probably have to be bilingual however. In the printing industry, it's hard to find people who are environmentally motivated into being efficient. It has to come from administrative planning. In these days of computerization and need to conserve, it's hard to believe there is no one who can go into a business or institution and consult them on how to reduce their consumables especially paper, in ways other than being cheap.
  33. Doug Lippay from Sunderland, Canada writes: Perhaps the TTC could be run by IKEA?
  34. Tor Sandberg from Toronto, Canada writes: I stopped reading when I saw that this journalist actually asked Rob Ford for an opinion. He's widely considered a racist, loudmouthed buffoon.
  35. Comments are Closed from Toronto, Canada writes: At least start with contracting out cleaning services. Use chain gangs or something.
  36. joe 6 pk from Canada writes: Comments are Closed from Toronto, Canada writes: At least start with contracting out cleaning services. Use chain gangs or something

    ============

    i concur ...

    you can include in the chain gang clean up crew ...

    miller, bone head , can'teeer , moscow, carol,et al, cabal, ilk ......................
  37. Peter Douglas from Canada writes: TTC is anything but 'world class'....as with our 'health care'....it is wishful thinking! Travel the world and you will soon find out that we are all living in a very well 'crafted' illusion of 'world class' myths! I am sure government is good at something (or use to be)...but...it is most evidently not good at public transportation. The TTC is just a big black hole absorbing alot of our budget (which could be spent on more affordable housing......environmental programs...etc).....sell it off and regulate the new owners....government doesn't have to own the assets to still maintain control!....Air Canada is dramatically better today than 30 years ago when it was just another political black hole for tax dollars! Same is true with the airport......But the politicians might lose the 'civil servants union vote'....so....don't count on any real leadership at City Hall!
  38. Michael Soft from Apple, Canada writes: IT'S TIME TO PRIVATIZE TTC!! Split it into several competing units, running in parallel. The reluctance to change the status quo is a demonstration of total lack of creativity and total lack of common sense. Look at the truely world class transit system in Hong Kong. Look at how they operate the system, why they are so successful, why they make money while can still serve the 'non-profitable routes'. Study and learn from advanced systems from around the world. Don't hide in a cave and pretend to be smart! If TTC were a world class transit system, then bigfoot would be the most advanced species on earth! TTC stands for ToTal Crap.
  39. Sue W from Canada writes: Miller: 'TTC can again lead the world”

    That's the funniest statement I've read in awhile.
  40. Nathan Cool from Vancouver, Canada writes: Josh Gould, are you insane?? I've lived in Toronto and Vancouver and Vancouver's transit system is infinitely better than the TTC mess!

    Vancouver's is clean, efficient, and has almost no staff operating the skytrain. It services more areas better than the TTC's ancient, slow, constantly broken system.

    On top of all that, the TTC is NOT accessible to handicapped people.

    It's a mess and if Toronto wants to fix it, they need to get their head out the sand. Their system is AWFUL. The worst I've ever had to use in a North American big city.
  41. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Free transit funded through ratepayers would result in no girdlock, proper planning and the most efficiency. And yes, Vern, I can comment intelligently and without rancour because I have researched and I do not behave in a crude, rude infantile manner as you do. Your tantrums only diminish any job entitlement you could ever hope to lay claim to. Governments need to actively weed out such attitudes to become optimally and positively managed for public benefit at reasonable cost.
  42. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Nathan Cool from Vancouver, Canada writes: Josh Gould, are you insane?? I've lived in Toronto and Vancouver and Vancouver's transit system is infinitely better than the TTC mess!'

    Except for the taser problems, that is :)

    Seriously though, privatizing the infrastructure is a dumb idea, because the owner of the subway tunnels and stations will have a monopoly. I can't see that being good for consumers - just look at the 407. Much smarter to contract out or automate the job functions that are peripheral to regular operations.
  43. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Upload all of GTA transit to the province or a body that is 'above' the municipalities. Empower that body to put tolls on roads and taxes on gasoline to fund expansion of GTA transport networks.

    We can bring our TTC back up to third world standards, and then maybe, one day, to first world standards, but for now, it's just a dinosaur. I've seen transit systems in India and China that are better than this.
  44. Peter vliegende hollander from Calgary, Canada writes: Before you start bungey jumping the privatization route, just look at what happened in Los Angeles after the WWII. GM had a lot to do wioth removing transit for the car. And now see whjat you have got! Is that what you privateers want? ( Look up the word privateer!)
  45. Michael Cnudde from Canada writes: I think we should hold on with the privatization talk. We need only look in our in backyard with at the 407 sell-off and the resultiing controversy to see what the end result may be. Private companies only concern themselves with the bottom line. Privatization will only benefit the shareholders, not the fare-paying public. Better some kind of provincially-chartered crown corporation such as in BC.
    In the interim, better transit funding is what's needed.
  46. Michael Soft from Apple, Canada writes: ' Michael Cnudde from Canada writes: ... In the interim, better transit funding is what's needed.'

    More funding? Guess where the money will go to?
  47. Able Bodied Man from Colony of Van Isle, Canada writes:
    Don't stop at the TTC. Sell off Toronto lock stock & barrel, load it onto a barge, slide it into the lake, sail it down the St. Lawrence, tow it out into the mid-Atlantic and let the highest bidder come and pick it up.
  48. Trish G from Canada writes: Privatization will never happen; the socialist gov. and people of Ontario will not allow it even if it would be the best thing for the Province. I for one am sick of tax $'s going towards a system that a majority of citizens of this Province do not, nor cannot use.
  49. SY GIL from Toronto, Canada writes: We have to come up with another system since the current system is not working. We have routes with buses running empty more than 50% of the time. They are simply running because some special interest groups have successfully lobbied for its continuance.

    Zoned fares would most likely result from privatization. It would discourage people from using the system. Any privatization should not occur unless there are other changes such as charging users for driving into downtown like they do in London.

    The TTC needs major investment. The use of tokens and tickets is so archaic that very few world class public transit system use. The fact that the signalling system is obsolete means they can run more trains and more delays.

    The PA system does not work most of the time so delays on the subway system become mystery to patrons who then can't make decision on alternate transportation. Most train crews seem to like to leave the public in the dark when all they have to do is announce to riders what is causing the delay.

    Putting vehicle operators who no longer can drive behind ticket booths is also problematic as most of them seem to have attitude problems - not exactly the type of people you want to represent the TTC.
  50. W M from Canada writes: I agree that the TTC should be contracting out the management of major construction / reconstruction, but am sceptical of contracting the services. The problem is that we are likely to end up with many more unions and, if each of them takes its turn trying to be the tail that wags the dog, we could end up with more work disruptions, not fewer. More and more, I get the feeling that Rob Ford is one of those guys whose certainty is directly proportional his naivete. He doesn't even seem to know what he doesn't know, let alone what he needs to know.
  51. Michael Soft from Apple, Canada writes: 'W M from Canada writes: I agree that the TTC should be contracting out the management of major construction / reconstruction, but am sceptical of contracting the services. The problem is that we are likely to end up with many more unions...'

    Ban unions! BAN UNIONS!!! B A N U N I O N S !!!!
  52. Nathan Cool from Vancouver, Canada writes: The Vancouver system is unionized but our bus drivers aren't a bunch of crabby a-holes. Maybe it's not a union problem but a Toronto problem.
  53. lui lu from toronto, Canada writes: Mr. Miller, is living many years behind the world. maybe TTc is a 'gem' for him, or a hidden interest he has in that company, or maybe is a 'gem', because the poor city doesn't has no more Transit Company. WAKE UP!!! There're many more better companies than this. I travel with frecuency, and They are a lot more better than TTC! Why don't finish this monopoly at all? All people I know agree with me. PEOPLE OF TORONTO IS WITH YOU ROB!!!!
  54. David K from Guelph, Canada writes: I wish the privatization fans would explain how they would improve service to the north-east and north west extremities of the city, arguably the worst served in terms of frequency and speed. These are the people who have the greatest need for affordable transit but I do not see how a corporation bent on making a profit would want to have anything to do with them.
  55. joe 6 pk from Canada writes: Michael Soft from Apple, Canada writes: 'W M from Canada writes: I agree that the TTC should be contracting out the management of major construction / reconstruction, but am sceptical of contracting the services. The problem is that we are likely to end up with many more unions...'

    Ban unions! BAN UNIONS!!! B A N U N I O N S !!!!

    ==================

    i second that motion ...

    all in agreement , say yes ...

    YES YES YES YES YES YES say we ALL ...
  56. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: The biggest future hurdle now on the horizon is the near complete lack of attention to speed from Metrolinx. Its experts seem to think transit users have all of the time in the world. They don't. They need to get to work and back in 30 min. each way. All of the money and the building in the world will not compensate for a near complete failure to address this crucial problem with express lanes & trains, pushing vehicles off of streetcar avenues during rush-hours, and building airport links to reduce highway traffic and improve efficiency for everyone. Our experts need to gear up to real-world expectations. This isn't the sandbox. We are not impressed so far. Any fool can spend money. What can you do today with what you have to get things moving? I think the obvious answer is that gridlock can be fixed today with resources on hand. This will enable realistic future planning. Doing nothing now and then planning on that basis will just lead to more future dysfunction than we already have.
  57. Josh Gould from Canada writes: 'Nathan Cool from Vancouver, Canada writes: Josh Gould, are you insane?? I've lived in Toronto and Vancouver and Vancouver's transit system is infinitely better than the TTC mess! 'Vancouver's is clean, efficient, and has almost no staff operating the skytrain. It services more areas better than the TTC's ancient, slow, constantly broken system.' More areas? Maybe it will once the new lines are done, but until recently the only way to get from, say, Richmond to downtown was to sit on a bus in very, very slow traffic down Granville or Oak. For that matter, Skytrains are only two cars long - I'll grant that they operate without fare collectors, but then the TTC doesn't require taser-equipped enforcers to ensure that people don't get on without paying. 'On top of all that, the TTC is NOT accessible to handicapped people.' And all elevated Skytrain stations are? The TTC has an extensive WheelTrans system and new buses which lower their doors for those who need them. 'It's a mess and if Toronto wants to fix it, they need to get their head out the sand. Their system is AWFUL. The worst I've ever had to use in a North American big city.' Give me a break - how many big North American cities have systems that are anywhere near as extensive as the TTC (combined with GO trains and buses and 905 transit authorities)? For that matter, subways and buses are not dirty compared to anywhere else - the fact that their floors get dirty during wet, snowy winter days is hardly surprising and is a consequence of this country's awful weather. When you have thousands of people in subway cars with shoes covered in salt and slushy, what do you expect?
  58. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: Michael Cnudde from Canada writes: 'We need only look in our in backyard with at the 407 sell-off and the resultiing controversy to see what the end result may be'

    The 407 is an interesting case. The basic idea of a public/private partnership made excellent sense. All that was needed was someone with an IQ above room temperature to implement it properly.

    Unfortunately the former PC government in Ontario implemented it. They did just a a SHOCKINGLY terrible job of doing so!

    Proof that even good ideas can be ruined when you put idiots in charge of implementing them. Toronto will need to be wary of this if they want their TTC public-private-partnership (overall an excellent idea) to be a success, because lord knows there are a lot of idiots in Toronto city hall!
  59. Don Wells from Calgary, Canada writes: So the TTC Commissioned Study---Need I say more
  60. Don Wells from Calgary, Canada writes: My frequent trips to TO in the past have used the TTC as well as auto to get to downtown---neither was satisfactory--An improved TTC would make the claim that TO is a world classs city--now its just another bigasssed metropolis with no soul---the Paris metro is better!
  61. David K from Guelph, Canada writes: The big push to privatize in the UK came from Maggie Thatcher whose philosophy was that anyone on the bus after age 29 should consider themselves a failure, or to put it simply, public transit is for losers. Baroness Thatcher was obviously not a big fan but air quality demands that we get people out of their cars and on to transit, how will privatization do this? All I hear so far is mindless union bashing and the vilification of politicians of various hues.
  62. Kevin Dooley from Canada writes: This has been tried before - GM bought up Los Angeles' light commuter rail system in the 50's and shut it down because they wanted to sell cars more than they wanted to operate a rail system. Then there's the current rail disaster in the UK.

    Bottom line, private companies do a miserable job at this sort of thing precisely because there's very little profit in it, and essentially no competition. What they do instead is to try to maximize profits by doing things like close troublesome lines - think there'd be any service to Jane/Finch in a private system? And what would that do to the current social problems in that area? Answer: it would make everything even worse.

    And for those of you who think that the problems with the TTC are due to the unions, I suggest you look up the TTC funding formula and compare it to who every other major city in the world funds its public transit. You'll immediately see that the whole entire problem with the TTC is that far too large of a share of the operating budget comes from rider fares, and far too small a share comes from any level of government.

    There are ready solutions to the TTC's problems , but they cost money and it's currently far too politically unpopular to give money to Toronto.
  63. Commander Groovechild from Canada writes: Privatization for these types of large operations should be considered on a case-by-case basis. I support privatization for the TTC. The TTC represents a large expense to tax payers given subsidies from various levels of government. Stop subsidizing the TTC. Let fares reflect costs. If this means a 1-way ride costs say $12.00, then so be it. Transit is the sort of thing were we can all exercise personal decisions. I as a car driver want taxes collected from me to go towards better highways. That guy selling tickets and making $100,000 per year on overtime can be replaced by a part-time student. Last time my mother fell on the TTC stairs, no workers went to help her. When I was feeling ill on a bus, the driver was in no talking mood to help me. These guys are not professionals but overpaid individuals who quite frankly don't even reflect the ethnic diversity of the community. Privatization is not just desirable but necessary.
  64. Fake Name from Canada writes: 'Trish G from Canada writes:
    I for one am sick of tax $'s going towards a system that a majority of citizens of this Province do not, nor cannot use.'

    Well, maybe the subway riders are sick of tax dollars going to maintaining and repairing roads that they don't drive on. In fact, if you take that to the RonPaul-extreme, nobody should be forced to pay taxes to support any road they never personally drive on, or to support mail deliver to remote northern communities that most people never send anything to, or to provide health services to the 'useless' hospital you never go to, or to educate other people's children.

    Living in a society doesn't mean that all tax revenues should exclusively be used on the services that you, Trish G, personally use. Quite frankly, if that's your attitude, maybe you'd be happier living on a private island you can have exclusive control over.
  65. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Well, of one thing we are certain.

    Whatever Toronto's failings, we know they have a world-class subway.

    That's what I'm talking about.
  66. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Privitazation is better' is a neocon lie. And those P3 consortiums sound good on paper, but out in BC, the private sector companies were the ones who left the table. Why? Well, they didn't want to open up their books to the kind of legally required levels of scritiny the governemnt operates under. In some reports I read at the time, the 'observations' made the 'leadership' of the companies was interesting, to say the least. Then there's that problem child hospital being built in Mississauga. The first job of any private sector company is to make - wait for it - a profit. If you think the TTC is bad now, boy have you got a surprise coming. Some here have commented about new or more taxes being required to do the job. That is incorrect. There is already a substantial tax that is specifically, by law, intended to deal with road and transportation support. That would be the tax on gasoline. Yet, somehow, these revenues end up in general revenues. Ignore history at your peril.
  67. Raymond P from Canada writes: Privatizing the TTC is an idiotic idea. Thanks to federal and provincial financial cuts over the last 15 years the TTC has been vastly underfunded. Mike Harris cancelled new subway lines shortly after being elected. The mentality that mass transit is an expense rather than an investment is a common one but it's mistaken. Is there anyone who would say that gas prices are going to fall making commuting into the city cheaper? Can Toronto's roads handle even a 10% increase in commuter traffic that would result from privatization?

    Toronto had a privatized system prior to the TTC. In order to get from point A to point B you had to go to a central station and pay another fare.

    The TTC needs more subway lines on busy bus routes, more north-south lines, more east-west lines and the monthly pass needs to be reduced to $75 per month. If you're going from Islington station to Finch station you should be able to go north and east or east and north.

    But to bring the TTC into the 21st century will cost tens of billions. The problem is politicians can't make decisions that go longer than the next election.

    P.S. The idea of a Pickering airport still exists. If it happens it will be 65 years from determining the need and building the airport. Don't let this happen to the TTC.
  68. lock hughes from Toronto, Canada writes: How about a new service from the TTC?
    24/7 door-to-door service for $40 a month?
    Rent an electric scooter from the TTC
    Seen here:
    PEP - The Personal Electrics Project
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Toronto-ON/Personal-Electrics-Project/10496899607

    tks
    LocK
  69. Mike Smith from Richmond Hill, Canada writes: Privatization probably wouldn't work...but whatever the solution, they really need to cut the salaries and benefits of these overpaid, unskilled, lazy union schmucks.
  70. joren carlson from Toronto, Canada writes: The TTC hasn't been 'world class' for 20 years. Today all I can say is 'it blows'. Though driving downtown last weekend was a pleasure without those damn streetcars blocking traffic all over. All you have to do is visit any number of large cities around the world, Tokyo, Seoul, Paris, and even London, to see that we're way behind. Why are ticket booth collectors (and I hesitate to call them that because all they seem to do is make change) being paid over $50,000 a year? Why are they still dealing with tokens and stamp sized coupons that are always being counterfeited? Other cities have taken advantage of technology and sell actual tickets from machines that can be read by turnstiles to let you in and out. They also sell monthly passes that again, can be read by machines. If I wanted a Metropass, I wouldn't know where to start looking for it. Until Government is ready to put its money where its mouth is and get SERIOUS about funding public transportation, we're going to be saddled with sub-standard services like the TTC. The TTC's union members also have to come to grips with reality. I'm as pro union as the next guy, but turning down a 3,3, and 3 contract in todays economic environment? Not exactly their most prudent move.
  71. George BrownIII from Christmas Island writes: Slice it dice it, anything to eliminate or weaken the union. Let their drivers work for $10/hr for private companies or drive cab for a taste of reality.
  72. Karen Chan from writes: It's funny, the TTC has been in decline for years and everyone blames the Union and 'overpaid' workers.

    Newsflash for those of you yearning for a Parisian style métro system, those workers are very well protected (because they're French) and they do go on strike for their rights.

    The Union bashing is a red herring. The TTC has suffered 20-30 years of general neglect and malaise. TTC workers do an essential and important service and thus demand to be paid properly. It is interesting that there are people who are so jealous they want everyone to starve on 10 dollars an hour because it fits in with their penny-wise pound foolish idea of how a transit system ought to be run.

    The problem may or may not encompass Miller, it may or may not be tied to certain TTC workers (certainly not all of them) but it certainly has something to do with the fact that the TTC (more than any other transit system in North America) relies mostly on fares to fund the system (and not from the government). During the last 20-30 years the TTC has seen budget cuts and a cancellation of planned subway expansion (pushed by the Harris government who gave us 200 dollars in the mail instead). A decent public transportation system does not grow on trees. It requires cash and planning. We have not done either so we reap what we sowed all those years ago during the 'Common-sense' revolution. Privatizing the TTC would not solve the funding problem (unless someone thinks that a private company is going to pour money into a public transit system out of the goodness of their heart) nor will it solve the general malaise and neglect that we have inflicted on the system. New subway lines do not get constructed over night. Buses, bus drivers, technicians and extra staff will not materialise out of thin air. What we need is more funding and a plan. What Torontonians seem to be offering a whole lot of whining. I guess that's why I'm moving to Montreal....
  73. Sober Second Thought from Toronto, Canada writes: I like the idea of breaking it up in to different crown corporations - surface, subsurface, maintenance etc or giving it to the province. Clearly the City cannot manage it.
  74. Lewis Armstrong from Queen's Park, Canada writes:
    it is time to sell of the TTC and it's also time to introduce more competition into Ontario Hydro and some competition into education. You can't blame a fat contract socialists who has job security, all the benefits, a big fat pay check etc, for not wanting things to change. But things are changing rapidly in the province of Ontario and far too many people are disenfranchised. We need more efficient social services so that we can lower corporate taxes, attract employees which in turn will provide for some of our weakest members of this society.
  75. joe 6 pk from Canada writes: BREAK THE union....

    greedy fat miller union goon cronies ....

    miller living off the fat of city hall...

    there are more property tax payers than ....

    greedy $$$$$ grabbing unions that voted for miller et al .....

    hear that miller ...

    it's coming ...

    it's coming for you ....
  76. Old blue from Canada writes: It won't happen in a million years.
    The extreme leftists like Miller would never let go of the peoples transport.

    More funding??? Give them a gazillion dollars and Miller will donate it to the workers through wage increases and then again cry that the feds haven't thrown nearly enough money at public transportation.

    The system really needs competence at all levels rather than 100K/yr ticket collectors and $25/hour grass cutters.
  77. Jello Biafra from bythebay, Canada writes: If B.C. separated from Canada, MICHAEL SHARP would still be thinking about TORONTO, THE CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE. HA HA HA!
  78. been there from Toronto, Canada writes: Judging from the article and the comments, it is clear we are not ready for anything other than to let the status quo to limp along.

    Privatization can work for transit services if it is done smartly, and ironically, with the government always in control.

    The worst sort of results happen when it is done purely for ideological or revenge reasons -- in this case, revenge on the unions, or government = bad (I suppose in the cases of Rob Ford and Minnan-Wong, that is probably true).

    It will create greater efficiency only if the government continues the infrastructure investments and own them, subcontract the operations to the lowest bidder but dictate strictly service levels and quality and safety standards with serious sanctions if they are not met. It doesn't matter whether the workers are unionized or not.

    Along with that, coordinate transit / land use development schemes have to be put in place in order to contain the infrastructure and operational costs. But that means you don't get to speculate land by buying some apple orchard in Whitby and hold them for 20 years and make a mint -- too bad to all the developers who have already done that.

    That is what it takes to properly privatize to get the efficient results for all.

    Otherwise, we will end up with ideologically-driven privatization with rotten deals like 407, or far worse, Enron with electricity in California, if not the chaos in Russia.

    In other words, we aren't ready.
  79. Who is Your Poppi from Red Sox Nation, Canada writes: Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Well, of one thing we are certain.

    Whatever Toronto's failings, we know they have a world-class subway.

    That's what I'm talking about.

    How could someone from Victoria make such a statement? Have you ridden on the TTC lately? Tokens and Paper tickets? Paper Transfers on buses? Surly workers making on average 50% more than their compatriots working for New York's MTA? Even SEPTA in Philadelphia is moving to an 100% automated system. The price of a single ride has increased by over 30% in a little over three years. Evey time the TTC faces a deficit they immediately think of one thing, raising fares. They have never thought just once of how they can run their opteration more efficiently. The TTC is not even the best transit system in Canada.
  80. Who is Your Poppi from Red Sox Nation, Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:
    Any dufus who thinks profitable routes ill make money for a private operator are right. But what the true dufusses and ingrates forget is the city will not have the profit from those routes to subsidize the lesser used yet essential routes that make up the transit system.

    Well, if these routes are lesser used, then they are not essential are they? Or do you not believe in one of the basic underpinnings of capitalism that the choices of the customers should determine the services provided to consumers and the price charged for such offered services?
  81. Canadian Patriot from Canada writes: Like the commercial says ' ... they make their money the old fashion way, THE EARNED IT'.

    I like to but in all sincerity, I can't say that applies to the janitors and ticket booth operators and guess who is paying for that dearly.

    PRIVATIZE.
  82. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: How can any city ask someone barely scraping by at a minimum wage job to fund $100,000 TTC ticket takers and a city hall with twice the number of managers and sunshine list members making over $100,000 as it had a few years ago. It's offensive disrespectful waste. And yes, renters earning minimum wage pay property taxes -- through their rent!!! No one escapes. Cut out the ticket takers with automated entrances, epsecially as many subway stations already have them, remove 50% of city hall managers to bring the city in line with private sector operations. We need to elect city politicians who do not view the wildly irresponsible mis-spending of ratepayer dollars as a job perk.
  83. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Most people understand the wisdom in ensuring that all major utilities and infastructure remain in public hands spo they operate in the public interest. However, the public has really had it with in-your-face mismanagement by financially inept media-hungry politicians. Maybe the time has come to consider tendering out the operation of the TTC. all public housing and even Toronto Hydro. Toronto has struggled only because it lacks business savvy and visionary politicians with courage. Toronto has immense wealth, assets, and immense income of more than $5,000 per person!!!! With responsible goal-oriented private sector management and staff in place, the city would save hundreds of millions of dollars, the TTC would be run efficiently and with excellent serrvice to generate a profit for its management company while also holding down costs to ensure their ongoing management contract was renewed. It would be win-win for that company, it's employees and ratepayers, plus would cancel out the negative effects of financially challenged politicians. Torontonians would still own and have control over the TTC. Note to politicians: If a private company is not buying the company, you can expect to save 25% of your operating budget. You can lower fares and still increase profits substantially. You could also allow private investors to take a 49% ownership position on new expansion, let them build at no cost to the city and still have control. By golly. I shoud run for office!
  84. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: TTC is not sustainable in its present form because it is too expensive to operate. To my knowledge, TTC is the only subway system (compared to other major cities in the world) without an automated ticketing system and without a connection to the Pearson International Airport.

    10 thousand employees to run the TTC is an incredible waste of money.

    TTC = TAKE THE CAR
  85. Wilma De Bruyn from Toronto, Canada writes: ‘It is large; it's expensive … it doesn't adapt to the future'

    I wonder who their discussing here???The Mayor and Councillors,
    or the TTC???
  86. Dan Chadwick from Montreal, QC, Canada writes: These greedy unions as Maple Leaf from Canada writes. Well Maple Leaf perhaps you missed Statistics Canada's recent report on the ever increasing spread between the rich and poor in this country. Where over the last 25 years there has been a net gain of 16% for the wealthy while the income of the poor have suffered a loss of over 20%. As for the middle class, their incomes have stagnated over the last quarter century. Do you think privatizing the TTC will lead to improvements, reduce taxes, wake up Maple Leaf do some research, Corporate welfare takes huge portions out of the public coffers. Unions at least represent a portion of the population that pay their fair share of the taxes, this cannot be said for the wealthy. You want to break up the unions then I guess you want to see more poverty, more crime, more police, more prisons. Take a read Maple Leaf check-out the social degradation that's been going on in the USA since Ronald Reagan closed down the Air Traffic Controller's back in the 80's. Let the common worker look after the TTC instead of those members of the elite who belong to the OLD BOYS GANG and I am sure public transit in Toronto wouldn't be any worse off, but at least the tax payer wouldn't have to fit the bill for the huge administrative cost.
    • Posted 04/05/08 at 4:17 PM EDT |