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Internet phone company sounds 911 alarm

DAVID EBNER AND CAROLINE ALPHONSO

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 11:47 AM EDT 07/05/08

The president of an Internet-based phone service says the industry must act to prevent a repeat of Calgary tragedy ...Read the full article

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  1. p m from Canada writes: making the customer responsible for understanding all the rules and regulations of the companies is a cop-out.

    user-friendly is more than just dialing up the other party.

    The complexity of the systems places the onus on the company to ensure that all the aspects of the service are to safeguard the customer. that's what the customer is paying for and is the purpose of the enterprise.

    spokesmen for the industry who say otherwise should opt out and go join the insurance industry, the leaders in making contracts obscure.
  2. Erik Richards from Winnipeg, MB, writes: I think it's a bit of a cheap shot to say that the company can send the bill to the right address but not 911 service. It's not unusual to have the billing address be different from the location where the phone adapter is used.

    Having said that, if the company did in fact have the correct address for 911 service but still sent them to a wrong address, this is obviously the company's fault. And the company has to figure out how it happened so it never happens again.
  3. Paul F. from Toronto, Canada writes: I hope Comwave is sued and get their clocks cleaned, and while they are at it sue the CRTC for allowing there two be two standards of emergency services to telecommunications customers.. Maybe then, in the rush to make a buck, both the seller of the service and the government realize that there should be a minimum standard in how emergency services are delivered over any telecommunications product.
  4. Tal Moody from Canada writes: The article is indicating a very nasty bit of a blame game between the telcos... (it's not our fault... the customer had to...) and the customers... (it's their fault... they had to..).

    May I be allowed to suggest that this is indeed entirely the telco fault. Plainly and simply, if the telcos have the technology needed to change the billing addresses of the clients (and suck all that money from the clients) then the telcos have absolutely all of the resources needed to indicate to the 911 services the requisite change of address. and therefore all of the responsibilities needed to do so.

    The telcos cannot shift the blame to anyone else in relation to this horrific tragedy.

    My sympathies are entirely with the bereaved family and they have my most sorrowful condolences.
  5. Cliff Pallette from Kearney ON, Canada writes: 911 is an essential service.

    You can't instruct society that 911 is your cry for help and then make it dysfunctional and faulty.

    If you sell a phone service, you must be able to connect with the emergency grid and ensure the safety of the people you represent. Anything else is criminal.
  6. i. ignatius from Mount Pleasant, Canada writes: since VOIP is telephony over IP networks, and is essentially software controlled, it would make sense that you should be able to software configure your VOIP service and indicate your 911 street address. Then, whenever you dial 911 from your VOIP service, automagically, the VOIP servers will detect 911 being called, and provide the appropriate 911 street address to the emergency folks. This shouldn`t be rocket science.

    But people need to realize that VOIP is not land-line, and thus, there is no guaranteed point to point connection between the 911 caller and the phone system. VOIP has benefits of being portable in that you can make a local VOIP call from anywhere on the planet, but because of that flexibility, there`s also the danger that was exposed this week.

    buyer beware.
  7. fire light from middle earth, Canada writes: My sympathies to the Lucks' regarding their loss.

    Erik Richards from Winnipeg, MB, writes: 'I think it's a bit of a cheap shot to say that the company can send the bill to the right address but not 911 service. It's not unusual to have the billing address be different from the location where the phone adapter is used.'

    I agree that it isn't so straightforward to verify billing address versus actual home address. In some cases people use P.O. boxes, or other addresses which may not be that helpful to first responders regarding the exact physical location.

    One way to deal with this is for their bills to clearly identify where the 911 address is, directly below their billing address. That way the customer could view and verify the address so they would have more power to verify correct information on a monthly basis at least. Potentially the telecom would have a secure website where the customer could change the information directly. (Given they have VOIP, you'd have to assume they have Internet access :-) )
  8. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes:
    True, 911 is an essential service.

    But does 'Caveat emptor--Buyer beware' be the watchword?
  9. Joachim Zucker from Canada writes: Where are the ambulance chasers, when you need them ?
  10. Joe Bloggs from Vancouver, Canada writes: Based solely upon the content of this article, it seems ridiculous to even consider suing the VoiP provider. Although, in the future, there will certainly be ways of reminding the customer of their 911 address, it seems that, in this case, the customer neglected to inform the provider of a change to that address. When people start talking about lawsuits, it becomes clear that it's all about responsibility. And, given what was said in the article, the customer paid the ultimate price for neglecting their responsibility. A very very sad outcome but nothing to sue for. All that should and can come out of this are lessons; to be learned by both cusomer and provider which will undoubtedly lead to a better, if not perfect, system.
  11. Michael Feighney from Toronto, Canada writes: One potential partial solution is for the call centre to automatically run a trace of the route of the emergency call. Depending on how the call is structured they may be able to tell which city the call is coming from the various IP addresses of the servers encountered along the way. This would all depend on what service provider their client has and how their network is structured. If you're looking for for a technical solution to say exactly where a call is coming from, I guessing is you're a VIOP customer, you're out of luck. A cell phone call can be tracked by the cell phone towers closest to the call, or a GPS chip in the handset. But with VOIP, I don't think you have that ability.

    If you want to save money on your long distance phone calls, then by all means get a VOIP service like Comwave or Skype. But because the INTERNET can go down, your access can fail, etc... ALWAYS HAVE A LANDLINE. Baring an natural disaster ir some fool with a power shovel cutting the lines, your old fashion phone will always work even when the power's out. A VOIP phone needs an external power source power up your modem to access the Internet.

    My prayers go out to the family on the loss of such a young life.
  12. m m from Mississauga, Canada writes: Michael Feighney from Toronto, Canada writes:
    "... ALWAYS HAVE A LANDLINE. Baring an natural disaster ir some fool with a power shovel cutting the lines, your old fashion phone will always work even when the power's out."

    1. Old fashion phone should be old fashion enough to work without power. Fancy modern wireless handsets won’t do.
    2. If the fool with a power shovel cuts your LANDLINE along with your power line you’re out of luck.
  13. Beyond my BEST BEFORE date from Canada writes: It isn't rocket science for a VOIP customer service system to detect a change of billing address and immediately query the customer if the 911 address should also be updated @%^&*(.

    In fact, this is so important that it should merit a REAL LIVE PERSON from the VOIP company contacting the customer when a billing address changes, just to make sure!

    TWITS!
  14. Matt Gillies from Calgary, Canada writes: Yuval Barzakay is weak and being deflective. Can anyone believe this? '911' is a big deal across Canada!

    Is it silly to count on '911'? If VOIP can't handle that what is it good for? Is this a situation where you get what you pay for? Is this unregulated?

    My deepest heartfelt sympathy.

    Talk it up Yuval...I know what you are!
  15. M.G. Stevens from Canada writes: For years as VOIP has come of age, one of the main "cons" in every article or feature comparison is the lack of robust 911 service. This should be clear to anyone assessing the merits of the service. That said, we've all seen marketing that implores us to by the positive features - the lower price - without taking a close look at the not-so-great aspects of a product or service. That spin and the lack of a clear onus - ok, regulation (free enterprisers be damned) to force the provider to rub the customers' nose in the reality that they need to keep their 911 address up to date would go a long way to reducing this tragic outcome in the future. You'd think that the providers would be so concerned with covering their rumps on this that they would find some dressed up way to sell this as a benefit to customers and make sure they have safety points to make along with the rest of the re-education process of getting people away from the old-school telcos.

    If nothing else, this tragedy will bring new focus to the need to be diligent with your communications choices.
  16. buddy from away from Halifax, Canada writes: Hey MM, how ya doing buddy?

    Now that I have that personal greeting out of the way ...

    As a long time subscriber to VoIP (I was an "early adopter") I would like to say that my service provider (Vonage) has gone out of their way to keep thier customers informed of the issues surrounding 911.

    Almost to the point of being annoying. (constant reminders via email, notices on the website when you log in etc ...)

    It's impossible for a subscriber to be ignorant of the 911 issue.

    Blaming the telco for this tragedy is inappropriate.

    The subscriber must accept personal responsibility for failing to update this critical piece of personal information.

    If one chooses to adopt a new technology, one must also accept the risks and responsibilities inherent with this choice.

    "Buddy from away"
  17. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: buddy from away from Halifax I am a long time VOIP customer also and I agree with you.

    As for this billing address nonsense. Many people like myself, do not get a paper bill. Once a month I will get an email indicating how much the monthly fee was and my credit card is automatically debited. So in this case, what should the 911 address be ???
    When I moved, I simply went to the web site and updated the information. Took me a whole 2 minutes.
  18. Kate MacKay from Canada writes: As a professional 911 operator with 18 years experience, including back in the bad old days BEFORE we had E-911 with the automated address location indicators (ALIs) on incoming phone calls, I'd like to make a point.

    1. Always stay on the line with 9-1-1 until the operator tells you to hang up. You might think you screamed "Ambulance" or "Police" or "Fire" intelligibly into the phone. Chances are, you didn't.

    2. I think most 9-1-1 centres have a protocol of verifying ALI information even if it's right in front of the operator. We don't assume the info's right because sometime it isn't. Again, a good reason to stay on the line until we tell you to disconnect.

    3. If you're calling from a cell phone, the 9-1-1 centre doesn't get your ALI. We get the address of the cell tower. We don't know where you are calling from. Please stay on the line so we can figure out WHERE you need help.

    4. Sometimes things go astray with the ALI databases (rarely) and we don't have the ALI dump. Again, stay on the line until we can determine where you need help.

    5. If you are a VOIP customer, check periodically to ensure your 9-1-1 address is right. And when you call 9-1-1 from a VOIP phone, stay on the line until we can determine where you need help.

    In short, stay on the line until 9-1-1 tells you to hang up.
  19. Ed Andrews from Edmonton, Canada writes: Kind of reminds me of the award made to the chap who set his step ladder up on frozen manure. As the day progressed and the sun warmed up the manure, the ladder gave way and he fell. So he sued the ladder manufacturer. The judge told the ladder manufacturer they should have placarded the ladder "Don't set this ladder up on frozen manure". True story. When are we as consumers going to be responsible for thinking?
  20. John Steckley from Bolton, Canada writes: It is clear to me that the VoiP provider is a killer here. That they didn't set up a foolproof system makes them morally, ethically to blame. They are only concerned with gaining customers. The kind of information that these companies give to their customers is bafflegab that tries to protect them, not their customers (they might as well be banks). To the true believers (shills for the system) that blogged here to blame the victims., I can only hope that your system crashes when you need it financially.
  21. m m from Mississauga, Canada writes: Buddy, hey buddy :)
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Ok, there is a problem with 9-1-1 now. It’ll grow in the future as more and more people use alternative means of communications. Vonage, Rogers home phone, Skype... I know families who use exclusively cell phones and don’t bother with a landline at all. In the final round big traditional telecoms will go with VoIP because it is cheaper. Five, ten years from now landlines will be as outdated as a horse carriage. What then?

    Technology created the problem, technology can resolve it. Let’s fantasize. Nowadays a couple of good engineers in no time can throw together a cheap device combining cell phone and GPS. The device should have three buttons “Ambulance”, “Fire” and “Police” and some indicators. There might be a rechargeable battery to keep the thing working during power outages or out of outlet reach.

    You’ve got the picture.

    I think supporting such gadget will be much more cost-effective then regulating and enforcing regulations.
  22. Patrick P-A from Canada writes: I can only talk about Vonage but when I signed up, they were quite insistant on making sure I understood the limitations of the 9-1-1 service. There was a bright orange sticker on the router they sent me. I get an email every now and then.

    It's a tragic story but the telco can't be blamed. You can't assume a change in billing address means a change of physical location... heck I have my bills delivered at work since I'm there more often than home, it seems. I guess the safe thing to do is to have the telcos call their customers every couple months and make sure their address haven't changed. Better yet... have them send a rep to the physical location to make sure the router is still there.
  23. Neon Cab from Canada writes: Fire Light is right. Your billing address indicates where the payer wants to receive mail, not where they live. If the VOIP telcos automatically connect the two, many ambulances will start showing up in small-business office parks instead of residential neighbourhoods.
    The Lucks made a significant move -- from Mississauga to Calgary -- and they needed to ensure they had all their ducks in a row. I'm sure they took the time to reroute their mail through Canada Post so they wouldn't miss any issues of their subscribed magazines, so why not also change their emergency lifeline information?
    They know they are skirting the system by opting for VOIP over a landline or standard cellphone; they are reaping the low-cost benefits of participating in a minimally regulated enterprise; and they have to accept the burdens that come with that. You can't sue a car company if you bought the vehicle from a thief and you can't sue the thief either. Buyer beware.
  24. Spiny Norman from Georgetown, ON, Canada writes: I see a couple of posts here who place the onus firmly on the customer because they lack basic computer or technical literacy. That would be find if VoiceOverIP were marketed solely to geeks. Vonage advertising is clearly aimed at everyone else. Granny, Uncle Numbnuts and Auntie Dingbat, and people like my mom who can't remember TV station ID's and their corresponding (cable) numerical designation, even after twenty-five years of knowing that, for instance, CBC in Toronto is channel 6. ("Why can't you just say "channel 6", I don't know letters!") In the end it's a shared responsibility. You're responsible for your own safety, but one expects a level of protection from utilities. As an absolutely essential service, no risks should be taken with 911 from any perspective, customer, utility, or service provider.
  25. D F from Regina, Canada writes: The best lesson from this is to not own a VOIP phone. My service provider was hot on promoting voip for a while, but when their service dies once a week for a couple of hours what then? What if I need it when their networks down for fire or the police? I sure wouldn't have one in my home without the safety of a landline, and then what's the point? My service provider, obviously not brainiacs, put their support lines on voip, and the first time their server went down, all the phones in their office went dead, and no one could call in or email to tell them!!
  26. Twitchy Libertarian from calgary, Canada writes: I have been a long-time VOIP subscriber and I have to say that my company has been very clear about the explaining the differences between a traditional landline and the VOIP 911 offering.

    My sympathy for the family does not extend to liability for the company (at least based on the minimal knowledge I have).
  27. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: Exactly Spiny Norman,

    Watch a Vonage AD, you know the one with the women elbowing and pushing the traditional Telco over until they are finally out of the picture.

    The only thing they are trying to portray is how their quality is just as good as the telco, but their prices are so much cheaper. As I've stated before, we have just been conditioned to trust our phone service as it rarely breaks down. It's been that way for a couple of generations now. Now we have outfits that have a closet full of equipment and they think they are phone companies.

    As someone who works as a vendor to provide to all these companies, I know the difference between a real phone company and some of these VOIP upstarts. Buyer beware.
  28. Mr. Coffee from Victoria, Canada writes: To start, my deepest sympathies to the bereaved family.

    However, I do agree with having a basic understanding how VOIP works and to always update your mailing address with the phone company.

    Our family uses a land line for local calls, with at least 1 phone still hard-wired (not wireless). You never know if the power goes out. The wired phone's call display still works on batteries. As for long distance, we are Skype users on the computer, knowing that it CANNOT be used for 911 calls. That's what the Telus local phone is for.

    Updating your mailing address is YOUR responsibility. Having worked for Elections BC, I was amazed by the number of people who lazily assumed Elections BC always had their current mailing address for any provincial election voter cards & info mailouts.
  29. John S from Montreal, Canada writes: The problem here is that people sign up for VoIP expecting it to behave like a traditional land line when in fact it is not. It is imposssible to have traditional 911 support for VoIP because of its portability.

    For those who say that the VoIP provider is responsible - how do you think they should handle the situation where the box is moved by the subscriber without their informing the provider?

    For the record - I have not had a traditional land line in over 12 years. I have used a combination of cellular phone and VoIP and have saved a great deal of money in doing so. I have not missed having a land line and frankly I think that in 20 years the land lines will have gone the way of the dinosaur.
  30. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Tal Moody from Canada writes: May I be allowed to suggest that this is indeed entirely the telco fault. Plainly and simply, if the telcos have the technology needed to change the billing addresses of the clients (and suck all that money from the clients) then the telcos have absolutely all of the resources needed to indicate to the 911 services the requisite change of address. and therefore all of the responsibilities needed to do so.

    If a person had instead died because the VoIP 911 center sent an ambulance to their business's mailing address, changed automatically for emergency purposes when the customer updated it for billing, would you be just as incensed? Why is one better than the other?

    The VoIP companies should definitely remind customers of the split periodically -- beyond that, what can they realistically do? If they called on a daily basis to check, they would be panned for annoying their customers.
  31. tony knight from Toronto, Canada writes: I think this is a terrible accident, and I have deep sympathy for the family of the child. I agree that voip 911 can and should be improved.

    Whenever the billing address is changed, the user should be forced to also confirm the 911 address. In cases where it is possible, the agent should confirm the address of the caller over the phone.

    I do know from experience that e-911 does work (although probably not as quick as landline 911). Recently my 12 month old daughter somehow managed to dial 911 on my internet phone. The operator heard her making noises and relayed a call to our local 911 center. The police showed up at my house not long after.

    I also know that when I was a kid my parents taught me how to call for an emergency - including giving details of my address (In those days, they could not tell where you were calling from). Our dependence on technology has made us believe that everyone else is responsible for us. We would be well served to give as much information as possible to the 911 center.

    I'm not sure how well 911 service works with cell phones, as far as getting to the location of the caller. Also given local number portability, I can see the possibility of calls to regular 911 occasionally going astray.
  32. Mike M. from Hamilton, Canada writes: This is a very sad and unfortunate instance and my condolences to the Luck family for their loss.

    This is a case where the importance of reading the service agreement with your provider is VERY important. I have never dealt with Comwave but i have with Vonage and Primus, Vonage forces you to update your 911 info when you update your address or even change your phone number. Primus (just checked my account) says i still live in the next town over, I'd better get that changed.

    With that being said, was it poor policy not have the customer update their 911 information when account information is changed? Absolutely. But at the same time it is the customer's responsibility to make sure they read and understand their service agreement before signing on to a service such as this.

    I hope that government intervention is not necessary here (everything the government touches turns to.. well you know) and that this is a wake-up call to the industry for them to start taking 911 a little more seriously.
  33. Mark Hudson from Canada writes: Anyone who says it is the providers fault doesn't understand how VoIP operates. It is not the same as POTS, which will only work at one FIXED address. If you're using VoIP you can take your phone and plug it in anywhere there is a broadband internet connection available and it will work, there is NO WAY for the phone provider to know that you have done this unless you tell them you have (which they didn't in this case). Billing and physical address are two very different things, in the majority of rural Manitoba for example, everything is done through a Post Office box, you can't send a first responder to a PO box... I have both POTS and Vonage VoIP, the VoIP I take back and forth between my house and my cottage in the summer. When I do so, I have to log into vonage's website and update the e911 profile to my Cottage's location in the event of emergency, and the same thing when I move it back to the city in the fall.

    VoIP is not a replacement for POTS phones when it comes to emergency services, there are several reasons for this.

    1. It depends on a working internet connection
    2. Most VoIP modems do not have battery backup (and even if they do, your ISP likely doesn't for their last mile)
    3. e911 billing profiles must be updated by end user (to avoid situations like these)

    My Vonage kit came with a huge piece of paper outlining potential issues with e911 and address changes. I believe there was also a sticker on the device itself, and then again on the website....
  34. B . from Canada writes: I extend my deepest sympathies to the Luck family for their loss.

    That said, I too am a VOIP customer. I cannot speak for Comwave, but I can tell you that Vonage certainly goes out of their way to advise of the 911 issues. Every other VOIP provider has done the same thing.
    It isn't a VOIP issue alone..what if the family had decided to do away with their land line and use a cell phone at home? Do you think the ambulance would automatically go to their cell phone billing address? Of course not! Why would one blame the VOIP company then?

    People need to be aware that as of the moment, the only thing that has the right 911 service is a fixed line provided by a fixed line company...that's why I still have a TELUS line in addition to my VOIP one.

    Once again, sorry for their loss, it is a terrible tragedy.

    However, when you're going to take advantage of all this "newfangled" technology, READ UP on it. Call customer service...don't assume anything!

    And when something bad happens, quit trying to point the finger at everyone else. When you make a decision to go with an IP telephone, you are the one responsible for making sure it is the right choice for you.
  35. C Lee from Canada writes: Actually, there was a rep trying to convince me to change my dail up to internet phone like 5 months ago.

    When I saying I am not willing cause I have major concern with the 911 features with VoIP, he told me the phone company fix this issue already.

    Thank god I didn't trust him.
  36. Erik Richards from Winnipeg, Canada, writes: fire light from middle earth, Canada writes: "One way to deal with this is for their bills to clearly identify where the 911 address is, directly below their billing address. That way the customer could view and verify the address so they would have more power to verify correct information on a monthly basis at least. Potentially the telecom would have a secure website where the customer could change the information directly. (Given they have VOIP, you'd have to assume they have Internet access :-) )"

    My point exactly. My service provider (Broadvox) has a secure member portal where I can view my 911 information 24/7. I can even see the latitude/longitude coordinates for my house. If I ever move the adapter (for example, if I take it on holiday with me) I can immediately update the information on the portal.

    As a few people have mentioned, VoIP does take a little more effort than signing up with Ma Bell or whatever other large phone service one chooses. That said, I don't think Vonage et al should be forced to market their services to "geeks" or those with an internet IQ over a certain level. For the most part owning a VoIP is no more or less complicated than using any other technical device. Besides knowing the limitations of a provider's 911 service, the need to check one's 911 configuration, and knowing that if the power is out your phone is out, how much more does a person need to know?
  37. Neon Cab from Canada writes: tony knight, you are spot on.
    One of the first things taught at CPR courses is to identify where you are in minute detail. Some cities have identical or similar street names and building numbers (i.e. King, Queen, Church and Main streets/avenues/courts/etc. or 5 Dundas St West vs 5 Dundas St East) plus cell phones dial their local 911 operator even if you are in a different area (i.e. if you called 911 from Calgary using a Mississauga cell phone you would reach the 905 area's 911 centre).
    Emergency personel have a lot of information on their systems but you still have to ensure that you help them confirm they are going to the right place.
  38. J. Toporowski from Calgary, Canada writes: I used VoIP for many years, and constantly got email reminders and mail outs from the company educating me on how the 911 system works, and that it had to be updated separately.

    I felt very educated and taken care of by the company, however something as simple as a message on a website asking "Would you like this new billing address to become your 911 address" would save a lot of grief and confusion for those that don't grasp it. Also if people update it over the phone the same question could be asked by the company and have it all dealt with at one time.

    It's really that simple. Unfortunately in this case a simple thing lead to a tragic end.
  39. Gordon Murray from Canada writes: Maybe for all (non-mobile) VoIP services, and psuedo-such, one of the mandatory form fills will be listing a local 911 surrogate number/number forwarder (as well as a term including mandatory update).
    There are already police/fire service numbers for less than emergency purposes.
    Perhaps access to those numbers, specific areas, will be made more accessible.

    For Toronto police, at
    http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/ appears the number, upper right,
    416-808-2222
    which seems to be within a graphic, instead of such number that via a mouse click, with such software as SKYPE, might immediately be dialed. Maybe that stresses the NON EMERGENCY PURPOSE , even if at the expense of 'borderline' NON-emergencies.

    On the borderline non-emergency v. borderline emergency controversy(controversies), one can see hairs split SO THIN that the label "FAT" is accurate dubbing for most over 3 micron floggings.

    :)
  40. John Steckley from Bolton, Canada writes: It seems rather insensitive and unthinking to have the Vonage ad in beside the comments, with the 'stick it to the world' trademark. I guess they really do stick it to the world when it comes to 911. It also amazes me how people defend the providers as if having these things is some kind of religion, and someone just criticized the mechanical messaic. I hope the family sues and that I am in the jury.
  41. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: "i.e. if you called 911 from Calgary using a Mississauga cell phone you would reach the 905 area's 911 centre). "

    Folks, this is NOT TRUE. If you dial 911 from Calgary on any cell phone then you will reach the 911 service in Calgary.
  42. Sudbury Saturday-Night from Sudbury, Canada writes: Making this seem like a Voip problem is just to narrow a view. In today's technology I regularily extend my Land Line all over the country for free using the Internet. Making my LandLine 911 Address in the ALI Database useless, and their is no way to correct that with the Telco because their ALI database does not allow for temporary changes of service locations. In fact, the only reason the ALI database is kept reasonable accurate is because when you get service from the Telco your service is installed to a given physical address, which is used as your 911 address. Hence when it is extended from there, your going to get a 911 dispatch to the wrong address and there is no way to correct that problem. The Telcos have yet to address that problem. Voip providers, on the other hand have never been able to have this luxury. First the Telcos don't allow them to connect directly with an ALI database, probably a good idea because effectively all Voip is portable and even the Telcos haven't figured out a way to do that for their own landlines. Secondly because they couldn't connect to existing 911 centers directly, they had to set up their own 911 answering services to screen calls from their own subscribers to manually check on location data for each 911 bound call and then the call centers forward it to the appropriate 911 answering center where it can be sent to Police Fire or Ambulance. Thirdly because they had to set up there own Call Centers they also had to set up there own ALI databases for Canada's 911 requirements. Consequently All of the VOIP providers in Canada are required since the CRTC Ruling to have you fill in (in some manner) a separate 911 Address section for emergency services if your using your service from a fixed location. The 911 Address is only required for a fixed location service address. This is to avoid sending Emergency Services on wild goose chases. It is part of your service contract. "You" have to keep it up todate.
  43. Satizo Storto from Toronto, Canada writes: Buyer beware. To save $5 or $10 bucks, you have to make sure you know what you're getting. The warnings about 911 services with VOIP have been know for a while. I won't switch to VOIP because of 911. The $10 per month is worth it
  44. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: John Steckley from Bolton, Canada writes: I hope the family sues and that I am in the jury.

    And I hope the defendants read the Globe and Mail dot com and see your comment so that they will know you're a juror with a preconceived notion of the case.
  45. Alex B. from Ottawa, writes: This is a perfect example of not taking due diligence. I truly hope that this family does not choose to sue or take any legal action, because firstly it will not return their little boy back, and secondly the actual death and circumstance has most likely very little to do with the death. Think about this rationally, it starts with ordering such a service as VoIP, this is a new technology, in its growth stage with its obvious faults, when the regular telephone rolled out, they had much bigger problems. It is upto the consumer to make a proper decision with considering all the pro's and con's in their strategy of asset management. Yes I mention your resources and disposable income, why else would someone go for this technology if not to try to cut costs and receive more services than currently offered by the monopolized land line telephone industry. When VoIP rolled out, the issue with the 911 land service was the first headline, and it is constantly repeated over all kinds of media and any type of promotion. This fact is not even hidden in some small legal cause in the bottom of the contract. It is extremely common to keep a billing address for a company as a totally separate database entry, and this relates to all companies in all industries, and even governments. Consider the simple case as you have a primary household out in the country where your drivers license is registered to, but you also have a small residents inside the city. Your official address could be your house in Regional Road 99, but you could be living 4 days out of the week inside the city. Where do your bills go to? your primary household, where are the services for the bills that go to your primary household? your secondary housing. Believe me it is more common than you think.If the family has bothered to change the billing address, why not then go the extra 2 seconds of time to change the 911 address?The consumer is just as responsible as the company.Not knowing is not an absolution to any law
  46. Sudbury Saturday-Night from Sudbury, Canada writes: Satizo Storto from Canada writes: Buyer beware. To save $5 or $10 bucks, you have to make sure you know what you're getting. The warnings about 911 services with VOIP have been know for a while. I won't switch to VOIP because of 911. The $10 per month is worth it

    Maybe you won't but consider your figures being wrong, I went from $75 t.incl to $29 t.incl. and receive more features than were ever possible from my ILEC.

    So the question is: Would you make the switch for $46 less a month with many more services included free? I suspect for many it would "Yes".

    But your basing your desision on thinking that the Landline works 100% of the time guaranteed. Trust me it doesn't, its good but its not perfect. The system is designed not to let you know it has failed unless you try to use it for something. And even then you may not recognize it has failed. Relate that to the Internet which is designed to let you know when it goes down and you should start to see that all Networks go down at some time, its just a matter of wether they tell you when it goes down or not. For that the Internet is far superior and lets you make an informed decision on the matter. Intead of just trying your call over and over again to no result.
  47. R B from Vancouver, Canada writes: Sudbury Saturday-Night from Sudbury, Canada writes: "Relate that to the Internet which is designed to let you know when it goes down". How does it do that? Does it phone you? I'm thinking maybe it lets my ISP routers know so that it can automatically reroute my pr0n requests, but when a member of my family is in cardiac arrest, I'm not that interested. I don't mind paying a few bucks a month for E911 service using proven technology. Like someone else said, cable pairs to my house just seem more reliable than software supported my a Microsoft Certified Systems "Engineer"...
  48. Chris W from Slugbury, Canada writes: First and foremost, my condolences to the Luck family. I think that what many people have forgotten is that 911 service has evolved over many years into what we consider a basic service today. It is still evolving because how we communicate evolves. 911 started off as an easy to remember number in every city to create uniformity within the emergency system. Originally, I believe, you had to tell them where you were. Then the system evolved into what we have today. Which by the way is not uniform across the nation or continent. It all depends on the installed technology. I work in an industry, that has a huge book of rules and regulations that is constantly being updated because of changes in technology. Every single rule in that book is written in the blood of a man or woman who died doing their job. This case, althoug as harsh as it sounds, is not different. Rules will be changed, and technology will be updated because a little boy died and because of this, hundreds, if not thousands of lives will be saved. Yes, I have VOIP, and I was told about the limitations and I accepted this because I understood what would happen during a 911 call. It's easy to understand and easy to do. I can only say that immediately, the VOIP providers, must implement a policy that if your billing address changes, THEY MUST make sure you confirm with them the street address that the service is installed at.
  49. Wendy Stone from Kitchener, Canada writes:
    I think the Internet phone company is totally at fault here.

    The story says that this family changed its address for billing purposes!

    So, I'm sorry, but if I am a customer and I change my address for billing purposes, and I am getting the bills from the company ... excuse me, but I too would very rightfully assume that they know where I live!!!

    When people change thier address for billing purposes, you would think the phone company would automatically update the information for 911 or check to make sure that the billing address and the 911 call address are not different.

    Geeeeeezzzz.... this isn't high-tech stuff. It's just common sense.
  50. F Dionne from Toronto, Canada writes: The Internet phone company cannot assume where you live by looking at your billing address. Their service requires an adapter that can be user-installed anywhere there is an Internet connection, even in an another country.

    This is why you have to specify the actual location of the adapter in your profile, and Vonage, for one, has repeatedly advised me to do so.
  51. norman golledge from barrie, Canada writes: although not a tragedy the canadian federal government confirmed on the phone yesterday that they did have my new address but as i hadn't specifically advised their 2 pension branches....my t4's were sent to my old address....it's always dangerous to make assumptions...especially in the computer age....which is one of ...specifics....but it's easy to do so and difficult to avoid in some situations....with bad or tragic consequences in some cases....norman golledge
  52. Sudbury Saturday-Night from Sudbury, Canada writes: Wendy Stone from Kitchener, Canada writes:
    So, I'm sorry, but if I am a customer and I change my address for billing purposes, and I am getting the bills from the company ... excuse me, but I too would very rightfully assume that they know where I live!!!

    (No, they would only know where the bill is going, thats why its called a billing address. Your assuming that the two are the same. But my parents would be some annoyed if there landline E911 service was dispatched to my house instead of where they actually live.)

    When people change thier address for billing purposes, you would think the phone company would automatically update the information for 911 or check to make sure that the billing address and the 911 call address are not different.

    Geeeeeezzzz.... this isn't high-tech stuff. It's just common sense.

    (It may seem to you that its only common sense that the Mailing, Billing and Service address's are the same but for many many people they are not the same and can not be assumed the same by any company or you will see a lot more problems like this..)
  53. Cowtown boy from Calgary, Canada writes: Thers's alot of talk on here about Billing adresses and E911 addresses and the portabilty of VOIP services.

    Let's face reality, how many VOIP users are actually making this a constant portable function and how many have their VOIP router sitting in their principle residence and are using it as their phone. I'm willing to bet that at least 95% is the latter.. I say they shouldn't be allowed to provide this service until they can provide fully functioning 911 service with the existing service bureau's accross this country.

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