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Rules urged for spies in Afghanistan

COLIN FREEZE

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 12:44 PM EDT 11/05/08

War zone work commendable despite lack of guidance, inspector-general says ...Read the full article

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  1. A good Canadian from Canada writes: Rules for spys?

    How about just put a huge sign board around thier neck so that everyone knows who they are?
  2. Eric Payne from Canada writes: Get your Tin foil hats out with a bag of microwave pop corn cause the conspiracy boys and girls will be pounding away at their keyboard in their straight jackets today over this!
  3. Ted Andrews from Canada writes:
    TROOPS OUT NOW!
  4. The Skipper from Canada writes: I checked the calendar and it is the month of May. I thought perhaps, after reading this tory that it was April 1st (April Fools).
  5. James M from Canada writes: Wow, Ted. That was insightful and full of deep rational comtemplative thought. Way to waste megabytes.
  6. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: The following is an absolutely true story: Some years ago I mistakenly received a letter addressed to someone from a foreign country that I will not name. Instead of simply returning it I wondered if it, - because of the country involved and the post mark - would be of interest to Canadian security officials so I made approprite enquiries. I eventually received a visit from a man from CSIS - who I will also not identify. I turned the letter over to him. Several weeks later I happened to see and recognize the individual with whom I had met and, out of curiosity, I asked him if the letter was of any significance. His reply was he did not know because he he was still awaiting the approval to open it.
  7. Fake Name from Canada writes: 'A good Canadian from Canada writes: Rules for spys? How about just put a huge sign board around thier neck so that everyone knows who they are?'

    I think they can manage to function without a double-oh 'license to kill' ... so long as the rules on foreign operations aren't ridiculously restrictive, anyway.

    Although since the rules would be made by politicians (or even worse, committees), I fear poor CSIS is going to end up with one extreme or the other, of having essentially no rules, or so many rules that they do end up handcuffed from doing anything useful.
  8. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: Having intelligence is one thing. Creating a structure-in-limbo blurring the roles of soldiers, diplomats and spies is quite another. It sows the seeds of distrust for our soldiers and diplomats, and ripens conditions even more for Afghan civilians to to distance themselves from Johnny Canuck.
  9. Two Cents from Canada writes: Gerry Pankhurst, it's a good thing that they needed approval to open that private mail you turned over. Just what grounds did you have to confiscate someone else's correspondence besides the fact that it came from a country you are probably bigotted about? Did it come from say Syria, Iran, or Russia? There are many ordinary Canadian citizens from each of those countries that have friends and families there.

    Perhaps the letter was a love letter or a job offer or a family letter telling a son or daughter that their parent was not well. Perhaps it was a letter requesting help. Perhaps it was a document they needed for a job or school application deadline. Whatever it was, it sounds like you caused someone's letter to be delayed for at least several weeks, and quite possibly forever, for no better reason than the country it was from or the sound of the name of the recipient.
  10. Don Quixote from The sunny Pollution Belt, Ont., Canada writes: Well with the insurgents and counterinsurgents our Boys and Girls are dealing with in the political INCORRECT country of Afghanistan,
    wouldn't it more than fair to give our 'Spies' the same rules as the others apply?

    Or is all this harping going on to pacify the political CORRECT crowd back home?
  11. Two Cents from Canada writes: Your 'absolutely true story' shows the need for rules and guidelines.
  12. Rollo Tomasi from Sweet Hot, Belgium writes: One has to remember that the gentle village of Westport really is in the boonies.
  13. Dominik B from Canada writes: Fine. Then let's get on it and set the framework. It will protect the agents in the end as they will have defined parameters to work within. Good article, I thought overseas operation were already defined, whatever the type of conflict. Interesting.
  14. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes: RULES FOR SPIES??? same as real fiction or military intelligence.

    GET OUR TROOPS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN NOW!!
  15. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Gerry Pankhurst: Greetings

    “ .. still awaiting the approval to open it ...”

    Rightly so. Opening mail is an offence. And spying is a sin.

    [49:12] O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion, for suspicion is a sin: And spy not , nor backbite. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother?

    Name one good that came out of spying in the last 100 years.
    At Soviet peak, half were spying on the other half. Today, Russia can barely feed itself.

    Kooks become a channel for dis-information by enemies. Kim Philby, Anthony Burgess ...

    Judahists Paul Wolfowitz, Anthony Perle, Douglas Feith, David Frum knowingly fed fabricated WMD evidence so that US can go to war for Israel. Result, $9 Trillion debt, oil $125, $ half its value, recession staring in face, America unloved.

    CSIS on Arar brought infamy to Canada making us a laughing stock abroad.

    As long as govts waste money on spying, citizens must seek all means to deprive them of hard earned money by reducing taxes.
  16. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: Any rules for spies would be to protect them, not the enemy. When allocating and passing blame has become a national sport, spies should be demanding rules of engagement if only to protect themselves from gratuitous and even criminal accusations.
  17. Fake Name from Canada writes: 'Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: Name one good that came out of spying in the last 100 years.'

    I'll bite ... stopping the Toronto 18 from blowing up a bunch of buildings with truck bombs.
  18. Allan Eizinas from Simcoe, Canada writes: .
    Rule #1 - Don't get caught.
    Rule 2 - Don't get caught.
    Rule 3 - Don't get caught.
    Rule 4 ...
  19. William Ross from Victoria BC, Canada writes: I would add another successful mission for a spy that affected all of us - how about the end of World War 2! A spy and a cypher cracked the japanese fleets code - and an american indian language was used by the americans - see windtalkers - and the japanes could not even transcribe let alone figure out.
  20. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Fake Name: Greetings

    ' ..... I'll bite ... stopping the Toronto 18 from blowing up a bunch of buildings with truck bombs...'

    What a joke. The real ones never get caught. With a paltry $200,000 budget (some say $60,000) a madman sitting in the mountains made a monkey of Trillion $ CIA, FBI, Pentagon DIA, CSIS, MI5, and Mossad all put together.

    If CSIS is really that good why do they not catch OBL.

    Inference - spying agencies are the biggest waste of money, as well as source of enemy dis-information.
  21. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Note the irony that our spy agency was created in 1984 (The year of Orwell's famous novel).

    Canada would do well to keep a tight leash on our spy organization; the Americans are having real trouble with the CIA being unaccountable and somewhat out of control.

    For example, the CIA was found to be illegally spying on it's own citizens, assassinating foreign leaders and other such outrageous acts - the infamous 'Bay of Pigs' invasion of Cuba is an example of the abuse of CIA power.

    CSIS, being a secretive organization, could mutate into a truly malicious entity if left unchecked - only a fool would not recognize this. A democracy can easily be undermined by such organizations answering only to political and military leadership.
  22. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Syed - the Lebanon forum yesterday turned into a real anti-Islam hate-fest. Or should I say a Cut-and-Paste smear-fest.

    Oh well, it just shows that there are some incredible bigots in Canadian society - xenophobes.
  23. Random Observer from GTA, Canada writes: Byron, agree with your comments re: Canada would do well to keep a tight leash on our spy organization'.

    Another example to add to mix is Pakistan's ISI. Lots of terrorist trouble the world is facing today are result of lack of control over ISI.
  24. Random Observer from GTA, Canada writes: Byron, re: comment Syed - the Lebanon forum yesterday.

    I would like to add that we should try to stay on topic, instead of adding irrelevant points. The reason I say this is on 10:12 AM post Syed again starts with religious discourse and other off-topic comments, which is complete irrelevant to topic. Religion should be out of all such discussion.

    Simple fact is that all countries have spying agencies, they are required, but should be kept in check.
  25. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Name one good that came out of spying in the last 100 years.
    At Soviet peak, half were spying on the other half. Today, Russia can barely feed itself.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Iran can barely feed itself. Burma (Myam... whatever!) can't help itself. Most of Africa is a mess. All because of spying? Don't think so.
    Also I have news for you, Russia can and is feeding itself. Mostly due to their natural resources, they are fast becoming a power again. Unless you think the Taliban and their OLB buddy are the way to go, we need to spy so that we can attempt to keep up with these madmen. This is not an anti islam rant, same goes for infiltrating org crime. You have to play dirty when dealing with dirty people. Can't deal with that, too bad!!!
  26. Scott Gordon from BC, Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Syed - the Lebanon forum yesterday turned into a real anti-Islam hate-fest. Or should I say a Cut-and-Paste smear-fest. Didn't you know it's okay to smear Islam? Just don't critisize Isreal!! As Stephen Harper put it on CJAD radio yesterday 'I guess my fear is what I see happening in some circles is (an) anti-Israeli sentiment, really just as a thinly disguised veil for good old-fashioned anti-Semitism, which I think is completely unacceptable.'
  27. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Anti-Americanism and anti-semitism are politically accepted in Canada today - people can say whatever they want. But one does not dare say anything anywhere near negative about Islam without being labelled a bigot. As for CSIS, they do need rules for their own protection as much as to protect anyone else. We were fortunate that they managed to stop the attack in Toronto. They might not always be able to prevent such attacks if they cannot follow the activities of people once they leave the country. If they can be of assistance to our troops in Afghanistan so much the better - but I recommend they watch their backs because one wrong step and Canadian media will be all over them. BTW the person who became the defence minister in Croatia and was responsible for the ethnic cleansing in the Medak Pocket (which including battling Canadian troops) was a Canadian citizen.
  28. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: There are thousands of examples of the value of espionage in matters of national security and warfare. One is the documated fact that it played a major role in the defeat of Rommel in North Africa in WWII. It was spying that broke the German code dealing with ship movements that were re-supplying Rommel's forces. It was the resulting the lack of resources that hastened his defeat.

    International warfare or the threat of it is highly dependent upon efficient, wide spread espionage. There is ample evidence that it prevents and shortens wars to a very great extent. Anyone who does not know or accept that as fact has never lived through or been involved in a war and certainly knows nothing about military history.
  29. Mr X from Canada writes: 'Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Inference - spying agencies are the biggest waste of money, as well as source of enemy dis-information. '

    Did you hear that on TV or did you make it up yourself?
  30. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Gerry Pankhurst - this is self-evident. The issue is oversight of intelligence agencies in democracies.
  31. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Two cents (good alias as it describes value of you comment). I confiscated nothing. I simply passed it along to the agency that should decide what to do with it. If they decided to open it and, as you say, it was a simple family greeting it would just be re-sealed, with no indication of having been opened and forwarded. It is not impossible it would have been forwarded even if it contained incriminating information after appropriate note taken. That is the way things are done in the real world. If you were involved in such an incident and simply forwarded it and later saw a news item of serious harm done with the involvement of the individual named on the letter, is it to be presumed you wouldn't care? If so, I thank the good Lord you are not involved in anything to do with national security.
  32. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Catherine Medernach - You're entitled to your opinion, of course, Catherine. But your claim that anti-semitism is politically acceptable is very strong - can you back it up with any real evidence?

    All I said was that the forum yesterday degraded into a long series of rants against Islam. You can read the comments for yourself to see that my observation was true.

    Unfortunately the truth is about 180 degrees opposite of what you have stated - anti-Islam talk is constant in our media, negative portrayals of Muslim culture are everywhere.

    Catherine, a recent study of media portrayal of Muslims found 'The terms Islamic of Muslim are linked to extremism, miltitant, jihads, as if they belonged together inextricably and naturally (Muslim extremist, Islamic terror, Muslim time bomb).

    ' In many cases, the press talks and writes about Muslims in ways that would not be acceptable if the reference were to Jewish, Black or fundamentalist Christians ' (Guardian)

    A 2005 report of EU countries by International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights looked at 'widespread' negative attitudes towards Muslims, including unbalanced media reporting which depict Muslims as 'an enemy within'.

    Catherine, remember that Presidential hopeful Barak Obama has been dogged by bogus claims that he is a Muslim, in order to hurt his campaign.
    Many candidates flout their Christian beliefs, but being labeled a Muslim clearly would jeopardize a politician in the US today.

    'one man waved Obama away when the senator approached him to shake his hand...'I can't stand him. He's a Muslim. He's not even pro-American...'

    Obama has never been a Muslim, but bogus e-mails accuse him of being a Muslim who put his hand on a copy of the Quran to be sworn into the U.S. Senate and refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance.'
    SunTimes.com
    If I have time I'll find some other references which clearly refute your claim.
  33. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Catherine - I'll never forget the first few times I noted in these forums that the globe was systematically barring commentary on stories about Israel, while allowing them on Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan, for example.

    I was quickly labeled as an anti-semite by a poster named Diane Schweik - for merely making an accurate observation. Since then, it has become blatantly obvious that the globe has a double-standard in this regard: yesterday's diatribes against Islam will be tolerated, but criticism of Israel will be suppressed, no doubt.

    Even though Diane was proven wrong, she has never offered an apology for the slur against me, but I did ask for one.

    Let the globe open up comments on all stories if they have the guts!
  34. crime of the century from This is not America, Canada writes:
    Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Anti-Americanism and anti-semitism are politically accepted in Canada today - people can say whatever they want. But one does not dare say anything anywhere near negative about Islam.

    Islam is the most corrupt backward religion in the world today, america and israel are the most modern forward cultures but are corrupted by greed and powerlust. Together they all make the perfect perpetual storm. The world doesnt deserve the destruction these power crazy cultures will eventually commit, they all need to be stopped asap.
  35. Ted Andrews from Canada writes:
    TROOPS OUT NOW!
  36. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Byron Rottweiler: Greetings

    “ .. Syed - the Lebanon forum yesterday turned into a real anti-Islam hate-fest..”

    Just a warm up before the real battle soon.

    For 80 years Republicans enlisted the worldwide Right: Spain, Greece, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan became Soviet's soft underbelly. Finally, Jihadis did them in.

    That was Zenith of Right power. From then on downhill all the way. Iran lost in 1979, Pakistan in 2008, Israel worried of survival, soon.

    Best news for Left was 9/11, beginning of Right's Civil War. Expect Saudi fall soon.

    In coming days expect Canada to become more polarized, with the increasing have-nots and the Left siding with Islam as is happening in France. Islam brings what the beleaguered Left never had – a fighting spirit. Further, Islam’s tent is large enough to include not only the workers, but also the peasants, the have-nots, as well as small businessman.

    Islam is Corporate Capitalism’s Nemesis. Interesting times lie ahead.
  37. I R from White Rock, BC, Canada writes: Spies?

    You mean to tell me that CSIS has been operating completely outside of the law in Afghanistan? Is that where this argument launched by Mr. Hillier and the CDA leads (i.e. the Charter and Canadian laws have no application to the CF or persons detained by the CF in Afghanistan or abroad)?

    Maybe the coalition should have had some rules about the use of mercenaries. It is my belief that the employment of mercenaries (aka security companies or private military companies like Blackwater) is the problem. Governments have employed them in order to deliberately thwart rules of state accountability and to circumvent the laws of war. By so doing they have undermined the legitimate roles of the armed forces and not just in Afghanistan.

    I see the Canadian army is still on a shopping spree, trying to acquire more minesweepers, vehicles and aircraft. I see arms companies calling the shots on their contracts. What I do not see is the bill that is to be paid by the taxpayer. I do not see a focus in the rationale for continuing in Afghanistan.

    What a mess.
  38. John E7 from Salt Spring Island, Canada writes: If there weren't conspiracies there would not be the need for spies to diffuse them!
    I think our military has ok ground intelligence gathering capabilities without CSIS. After all, too many cooks spoil the broth!
    CSIS was invented to deal with FLQ and other domestic problems like foreign spies operating within our country.
    Personally I think we should keep CSIS focused on those functions rather than spreading the service to thinly abroad!
  39. Brad Fgroupthinkn from Canada writes: Somewhere in this thread a writer referred to David Frum;
    there is no queston this traitorous swine deserve mention.
    thanks for reminding me about this piece of S$$T.
  40. Interested Observer from United States writes: OBL is dead.

    The Toronto 18???

    wow.

    If ignorance is bliss we sure have some happy posters.
  41. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Rules for spies? We don't need no stinking rules!

    Society ALWAYS functions so much better when certain groups of government employees become laws unto themselves.
  42. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: I R, the lack of accountability goes very deep. NATO has declared that it is not bound by the Geneva Conventions and other rules of war. They made that statement because as a multinational military organization, they're not a signatory to the GC nor to other international laws. Cute, huh?

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