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Carbon tax a tough sell, Dion told

JOAN BRYDEN

THE CANADIAN PRESS

Latest comment posted at 5:46 PM EDT 11/05/08

With gas prices soaring and the economy slowing, Liberal party pollster, some MPs uneasy about leader's plan to put a price on carbon ...Read the full article

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  1. james cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: A carbon tax is a tough sell because most people realize that it will do nothing to solve the problem and is tantamount to a government tax-grab scam. It will not 'rescue the environment' and will certainly do nothing regarding Dion's reputation. Still, the Liberals have never met a tax that they did not like to impose...
  2. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: It'll cement his reputation all right and not for the better.
  3. Is Dion from France or from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:
    Watch for the COns smears on this one ....................
    ---

    Why would the COns bother Vern? The Libs are doing a great job of smearing themselves.
  4. emilio D from Vancouver, Canada writes: He will be hitting his head with a brick if he imposes the carbon tax.
  5. only mikey from Canada writes: Mr. Dion -go home to mommy!Your party is only good for 'smearing'.
  6. Mike McFae from Canada writes: I wish he would just say whether or not there will be a new carbon tax on fuel...yes or no. Also, will there be a new added tax on home heating fuel ...yes or no. Does anyone remember what happened when Joe Clark tried to raise taxes...wasn't that on fuel also for whatever was the cause-of-the-day when Joe decided to implement added taxes.
  7. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Vern MacPherson .... here's your smear from a non-Con.

    Oil finished Friday at above $126USD/barrel. January 2, 2008, it passed $100USD/barrel for the first time.

    Please explain how the market price of energy will not change behaviour but a government tax will.

    Feel free to make references to the failure of Euro taxes to inhibit consumption or the Oil Crisis of 1973 that saw market price affect behaviour or the current global insatiable hunger for energy, i.e. Western Canadian Coal selling out 2008 metallurgical and fuel quality coal to Asia for 300% to 350% above 2007 prices.

    Try really hard not to use terms like NeoCons, Bush, Harper or deniers, or emotions like my grandchildren will die due to my actions.

    Just give me some economic facts.

  8. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Vern.. this doesn't have to be smeared, it is so far over the stupid line it is not required. If it were I would point out you would also pay the raised GST on it and the excise tax. Lord the L's like high taxes, makes it way harder to spot the financing the party. And who is to benefit after the civil service of course... the people that don't pay taxes in the first place. Good optics but they ain't funding the L's now are they.
  9. Is Dion from France or from Canada writes: only mikey from Canada writes: Mr. Dion -go home to mommy!Your party is only good for 'smearing'.
    ---
    Good one mikey. Who is smearing whom?
  10. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    Liberals increase taxes. Who knew?
  11. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: A liberal/Liberal proposing a punitive consumption tax and rapidly inflating commodity is considered cutting edge leadership?
  12. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: 'Carbon tax a tough sell' ... Ummmm, duh.
  13. Antoine B from Anywhere, Canada writes: Let's try something different today. Let's try to be constructive. How can Canada reduce its dependence on fossil fuels, reduce its greenhouse gas emissions while growing its economy and developing technologies that the world will want to buy?
    If we refuse to address climate change now, our exports may face duties and/or leading edge technologies and products may be developed elsewhere. Our industries may keep churning out inefficient products that no one wants. Our businesses will not operate efficiently and will be more vulnerable to swings in energy prices.

    So what should we do?
  14. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Given that every economist that has taken a serious look at the problem agrees that are carbon tax is absolutely essential, this is the correct policy and, by definition, Dion is showing leadership in moving forward with this. There are two things that are required to make this appealing. One is what kind of summer we have. If we have a hot dry summer, support will be high. If not, it is less likely that the public will perceive this as a problem. The second is that the program, on balance, provides opportunities for people to pay overall less tax (if they make the right choices). Certainly, the current government has zero intention of providing real action on this file and ALL of the opposition parties agree that we need to do more. In the end, energy prices are going to continue to rise and the faster we can move to a more efficient society the better off we are in terms of the ability of our businesses to compete internationally. Obama is likely to have a much tougher policy. Of the three candidates for the U.S. presidency, he is the only one who has refused to bite on the 'reducing gas prices' issue. Once the U.S. acts, they will force us to follow suit (or face the consequences).
  15. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:
    Watch for the COns smears on this one ....................
    ________________

    It deserves to be smeared.
  16. SN Dream from Canada writes: We can push renewable energy much faster if we divert the money currently used to subsides construction project of biofuel, solar and wind energy generation towards more R&D oriented policy like research grants to university and private company. As soon as the technology for generating electricity cheaply is available, company will automatically adopt it. Not to mention we can avoid all the pitfall like the biofuel generated food shortage.
  17. JD Wood from Houston TX, Canada writes: Dion is the best thing for Conservatives. Why would the liberals elect such a fool. He is like a Joe Clark with a speech impediment.
  18. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Ed Long, I think that it is a valid point that global energy prices are having a much more dramatic effect on the cost of gasoline than any tax that the government will implement. The alternative approach would be to use the tax system to extract dollars from the energy sector and use these dollars to provide incentives for Canadians to move away from energy-intensive vehicles. Those MFing SUVs are unnecessary and increase the consequences of motor vehicle collisions with those of us who drive smaller vehicles. We also need a significant investment in transit.

    Something that other countries have done (Germany for example for quite some time) that we could implement is a train system that transported vehicles along the Trans Canada highway along with passengers and provide this service at a cost that would be less than the fuel costs for driving the vehicle. This would let people have their cake and eat it too in that they wouldn't have to drive the highway to have a vehicle available at their destination.
  19. Albin Forone from Canada writes: First, I think the wise guys might be surprised at the political attractiveness of a REVENUE NEUTRAL carbon tax, that would offset immediate increases to energy tax with other economically effective tax cuts, e.g. to income tax, capital gains, dividend taxation, etc.; second, if Dion is going to go down to the ghoulish Tories, he might very well want to go down in the name of something worthy, like this.
  20. Martyn Whitt from Canada writes: The Liberals are setting up quite an election platform. Tax a fundamental commodity, side with Khadr (who's in Gitmo), try to attack the CPC on a free trade deal with Colombia (how dare they oppose Hugo Chavez?). Great, the CPC won't even have to campaign themselves they can just pay the Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada...I mean the Libs sorry about that...to go on a cross country road show. These guys opening their mouths is the greatest election policy campaign the CPC can possibly have. Thank-you Liberals, the wheels have fallen right off, and they've become nothing more than a pathetic joke!
  21. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: this plan is an attack on the poor, the working poor, and people in rural Canada
    On that last point, the Liberals don't care, as they only care about the big cities
  22. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Chuck the Canuk, yes, Day would have us believe that it is nobody's business if a minister decides to have a Chinese spy as a girlfriend and take them along when they attend meetings where national security could be compromised. A former CSIS agent pointed out on Mike Duffy Live that motorcycle gangs are actively involved in infiltrating the highest levels of municipal, provincial, and federal government institutions. It was sexual relations of members of the Diefenbaker government with a foreign spy that prompted much of the current rules. If you don't think that attractive women can compromise the ability of people to govern responsibly, read the article on Sarkozy.
  23. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Given that every economist that has taken a serious look at the problem agrees that are carbon tax is absolutely essential,

    funny how economists live in cities and make enough money that they would benefit from the tax cuts
    the same can't be said for all Canadians. why are the Liberals going after the poor and rural Canada?
  24. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom, people who are genuinely poor don't own vehicles. Rather, they use public transit to get to their $8/hr jobs.
  25. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: I see the Liberal partisans are trolling and discussing another news story. What's a matter boys, can't defend your leader on this one?
  26. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: Ding Dong Dion should call for a 10% carbon tax across the board to help ward off the projected 'global cooling cycle' by raising the blood pressure of Canadian tax payers.
  27. pierre lefebvre from Brossard, Canada writes: Dion can talk all he wants on carbon tax but he has no follow through on any matter he promotes. Stephane is all talk and no action. Who would want such a person as Prime minister?
  28. D K from Canada writes: 'Vern McPherson from writes:
    Watch for the COns smears on this one .................... '

    A politician wants to raise taxes, nothing to see here move along.

    Shouldn't the headline be: Liberals propose to tax and spend, business as usual.
  29. JD Wood from Houston TX, Canada writes: I just want Dion to force an election. I can still vote in Canadian elections, and I know he will loose badly, then a leadership review and then the liberals elect a real leader. Just like the Leafs, the Torontonians will back another looser, the Liberal party of Canada.
  30. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'Albin Forone from Canada writes: First, I think the wise guys might be surprised at the political attractiveness of a REVENUE NEUTRAL carbon tax, that would offset immediate increases to energy tax with other economically effective tax cuts, e.g. to income tax, capital gains, dividend taxation, etc.'

    Under the Liberal plan there will be no corresponding income tax cuts for average employed Canadians. There will only be token tax cuts for some seniors and the non-working poor.
  31. Jim Sentance from Charlottetown, Canada writes: I think its about time a federal politician had the guts to do the right thing. Go for it Stephane!
  32. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom, if you actually look at policy platforms, you will see that the party that cares the most about the plight of rural Canadians is the NDP. The parties that cares the least are the conservative parties. If you want to take conservative ideology to its logical end point, however, the family farm must die because the scale is not consistent with efficiency.
  33. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Bobby how does a summer increase the appetite for a tax? The tax doesn't go away at -40. The wind turbines in the Maritimes 6 of 10 toast cuz...the wind blew. A good solar cell is about 19% efficient.

    We do need more research but the U's can churn out more lawyers for more money and lower cost. Science takes a lot of money, engineering takes a lot of money. Women's studies, Fine Arts ..pretty cheap. Lawyers and some leave buildings. An Astrophysicist leaves a reputation.
  34. lynn H from Canada writes: No wonder Liberals want to ban guns, it will prevent them from shooting themselves in the foot. Go for it Dion. Sell that carbon tax. Run with it as the central part of your election strategy. I am sure that a new revenue neutral (giggle) tax is exactly what Canadians want during record oil prices, Ontario job losses and an unsure economy. Liberals might want to check to make sure that Dion is not a secret CPC agent?
  35. Is Dion from France or from Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom, people who are genuinely poor don't own vehicles. Rather, they use public transit to get to their $8/hr jobs.
    --
    People who are genuinely poor do still have to heat their homes, heat their water, pay for lighting, heating oil, natural gas, etc. And since they don't pay taxes they cannot even benefit from any tax breaks announced under this farce of a plan.
  36. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Joe Clarke proposed an 18 cent per gallon gas hike as an interim measure to reduce the deficit. He couldn't do the math in the House and was defeated. Trudeau came to power and the National Energy Program, although reviled in Western Canada, was popular in vote rich Ontario and Quebec.

    Bobby Dy ... If you read something other than drivel 'Given that every economist that has taken a serious look at the problem agrees that are carbon tax is absolutely essential' (cracks me up), you would have read the Report on Business two weeks ago that described the U.S. emissions reductions as being 5/9 of the way to Bush's 2002 declared goal of reducing emissions by 18% by 2010. Try some math ... the U.S. has reduced emissions by 10% without a punitive tax.

    Furthermore, all three presidential candidates have focussed on the security of energy and the increased use of coal. You know, the stuff that powers China and India and is shipped out of B.C. The price of coal is skyrocketing faster than oil, please see my earlier post.

    Therefore, the most cutting edge leadership in environmental action is the SaskPowerCorp research project at the Shand coal fired power plant carbon sequestration project (see www.rtc.org/2008) that is being funded by the Sask. and Federal Governments .... without a carbon tax.

    Gee, industry, government, innovation, intellectual property, no extra taxes, environmental and technological gain .... what a concept, Bobby.

    Weaklings and followers .... tax, tax, tax.

    Leaders and Movers .... innovate.
  37. Martyn Whitt from Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Given that every economist that has taken a serious look at the problem agrees that are carbon tax is absolutely essential,

    Given that economists have never agreed on ANYTHING before you are making quite a bold statement there, don't worry I won't ask you to back it up.
  38. Brian W from Canada writes: He probably gets his advice from the same guy who told John Tory that he should support funding religious schools.
  39. only mikey from Canada writes: Hey hey Chuck the Canuk---want someone in your bedroom? As for Dion--he was IM for over two years as a liberal and did nothing--whats with him now?
  40. Ermos Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend. Go Dion go.
  41. CD W from Canada writes: Cant be any tougher than the supreme court ruling that kiddie porn is art. The libs loved that one, how a carbon tax be tougher?
  42. bob london from Canada writes: Vern: No need for us to smear. You are throwing your leader under a bus.
  43. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Prairie Boy, if you want more research at the level of the university, you speak to the federal government. It costs no more to pay the prof and it costs less to educate the graduate student in science (they don't have course-based theses). You can read Nature's commentary about what this government has (actually hasn't) done to support research in this country.

    My point about summer heat is that, despite the fact that one cannot draw conclusions about global warming based on how hot a particular summer is, people often equate the importance of dealing with global warming with the weather that they experience. If it is hot, there will be lots of talk about global warming. If it isn't (and it probably won't be-La Nina is dominating the N. American temperatures right now), you won't hear that much about it. This is the problem with the general public. They are scientifically illiterate and, as a result, vulnerable to disinformation campaigns intended to confuse them (like the 'global cooling cycle'). Based on temperature cycles, we would normally be on a very long term (thousands of years) gradual descent into the next ice age. While that may constitute a 'global cooling cycle', it's not what Dick Garneau is referring to.
  44. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Ha,ha,ha,ha Conservative majority.
  45. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: only mikey, the first year that Dion was Environment Minister (EM not IM) saw the first ever DECREASE in total CO2 emissions (2005) from this country since we began tracking this information. What will the 2006 numbers bring? As for 'intensity-based' measures, which the CPC prefers, the record shows that intensity-based emissions decreased significantly over the period that the LPC was in power.
  46. John Brown from Maritimes, Canada writes: Just what Canadians need, more taxes. Would like to convert to an air source heat pump to cut down on my electricity usage and we are in an area of nuclear energy; have you seen the hoops you have to jump through to apply for a government grant to offset the cost. Now this wing nut wants to add a carbon tax, you go on your cross nation tour and convince the average Canadian more taxes are better. What dream world do these people come from, thats it as far as the next election goes I won't cast my ballot, can't vote Liberal and refuse to vote Conservative and NDP, as for the rest they just don't count in this country.
  47. A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes: only mikey from Canada writes: Mr. Dion -go home to mommy!Your party is only good for 'smearing'.

    Sounds to me based on your nickname - that you are mommy's mikey ... Go home, Mikey ...
  48. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Martyn Whitt, the postion of the CPC on Khadr is an international embarrassment. On Colombia, Harper shows the depths of his hypocrisy (biggest violator of human rights in the region).

    Ed Long, to say that the U.S. has not been active on this file is exceedingly misleading. The federal government in the U.S. has not. Regional and State governments have been very active. Thus, the U.S. has made progress.
  49. The Voice of Reason from Toronto, Canada writes: It might be a tough sell but Dion is absolutely on the right track with this one. Implementing a carbon tax would represent a principled and positive contribution toward batting the climate change problem. Of course 'principled' and 'positive' are concepts foreign to the Harperites.
  50. JEANNE FARINE from Vancouver, Canada writes: One would like to think that the majority of Canadian electors have the basic intelligence to work through the not overly complicated reality that ignoring or fudging the environmental challenges of climate change and carbon emissions can only deepen the eventual crises as they inevitably require action. Then, one would further hope that the majority of Canadians would respect the political Leader who told the truth and offered a plan to respond to that truth. Not Mr. Harper.

    To date, the Harper government has avoided any such truth and has based its primary political attack, not on climate change, emissions or any other reality. but rather on attacking the character or person of the Leader who has offered the continuing honest approach on the environment...M. Dion. The solutions are not simple. Their application requires political courage and honesty. On such requirements M. Dion has a strong foundation...and spare us the rants about his supposed lack of courage in not voting down the Tory Government. Resisting the Tory pressure to go to the polls before the electorate recognize the need to do so takes fortitude. In contrast, the Conservatives clearly play on whatever anxieties and confusions they can create...anything but face the problems we all should know are building. The Tory tactics to try to steal another election, before the economic and environmental challenges confront them in indisputable reality, do not reflect 'leadership'...quite the opposite!
  51. A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes: So on one hand with PM with base in oil industry - that only becomes stronger with oil being more expensive. On the other hand, someone is trying to stop the grab of oil industry - but majority of the posters here - do not like it. Either way, you will pay - one way it might stop the oil business machine, on the other way, might make it richer.

    I drive small car, I have energy efficient everything ... I feel sorry for people fueling their SUVs, then drive as a single person in Suburban, Tundra or whatever. I don't have problem with carbon tax - since I plan to spend even less.
  52. Martyn Whitt from Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Martyn Whitt, the postion of the CPC on Khadr is an international embarrassment.

    Not to the average Canadian it is not. This family turned their back on Canada and chose to fight for the Taliban-that makes them traitors. The Libs are trying to gain political points for coming to the defence of a traitor. This simply does not wash with the average Canadian-sorry, most Canadians despite what you may think love their country and don't really like traitors.

    On Colombia, Harper shows the depths of his hypocrisy (biggest violator of human rights in the region).

    What makes them the biggest violator of human rights in the region, is that because they've been fighting a civil war against communists? Whatever mate, I'm NOT going to tell you Colombia is a utopia on earth, what I will tell you is that the Libs are in effect siding with the alternative to the democratically elected government of Colombia, and that would be FARC.

    I stand by my post, there is NO way to spin it, the Libs are economically and morally bankrupt and simply betting on the wrong sides with alarming regularity. The average Canadian understands this.
  53. A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes: P Jones from NB, Canada writes: 'Carbon tax a tough sell' ... Ummmm, duh.

    Yup. But check out what's happening in the world - Europe pays double or triple price, Germany will not have dumps after 2020 - they recycle everything, Spain gets more energy from wind then any other form,
    while we are planning to suck up the last bit of oil we have, make Canada as dirty as possible and then what - leave to our kids way to bright future.

    Tough sell is because people do not think, do not want to think about future, just selfish thinking how much to save money today, while wasting energy in every possible way.
  54. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Bobby Dy .... the great Euro Reality of Transportation.

    Let us forget the short distances and huge population differences.

    Amtrak released a study of Public Funding Levels of European Passenger Railroads, dated April 22, 2008, and available at www.amtrakoig.com/reports.

    Basically, the six countries studied between 1996 and 2006 spent cumulatively, on average, $42B USD PER YEAR on operating their passenger rail service.

    Canada's transportation system has been pivotal to our survival since 1867 and the Last Spike, and is more so today with permanent high fuel costs.

    Forget the flavour of the week carbon tax silliness.

    A complete overhaul of our transportation system will be a mega-project costing tens, if not hundreds, of $Bs and will take decades.
  55. only mikey from Canada writes: Bobby Dy---sorry you are wrong---emissions when up 35% while Dion was 'E'm.
  56. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    What's all the fuss?

    I thought the implementing of Kyoto protocols would be free.

    And this on the same day that AGW evangelists have admitted their 'models' don't have all the data.

    Envirohysteria.

    It's not what it's cracked up to be.
  57. martha stewart from Canada writes: Go for it Dion! It seems his only remaining claim is that he is a man of integrity so, please, provoke an election on this issue. It represents everything you claim to believe in.

    So let's see if Canadians share your vision and priorities.

    If you back down on this you stand for nothing. And there is even less reason for you to hang around not voting on anything.

  58. sol levin from Canada writes: Finally a leader that doesn't base his opinion on what 30 million dollars worth of polls say!
  59. martha stewart from Canada writes: Bobby Dy - I see mikey beat me to addressing your claim that 'the first year that Dion was Environment Minister (EM not IM) saw the first ever DECREASE in total CO2 emissions (2005) from this country since we began tracking this information.'

    I was going to ask you for some specifics. Like what exactly may have caused that? And when and how did they collect that information, and when did they begin to do so?

    On the face of it your claim seems nonsensical.
  60. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    So.

    Dion's climate change thingy won't work.
    What's left?

    Universal Day Care?

    I'll bet that's free, too.

    If we can accuse the Conservatives of being socially conservative then we can certainly accuse the Liberals of not being fiscally conservative.

    Kyoto and Day Care alone will costs multi-billions of dollars.

    But then they have the legacy of Trudeau to live up to...

    Borrow now, let the great-grandchildren pay.

    There's nothing a Liberal likes more than your money.
  61. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: I guess with the Liberals ad scam all brought to the surface they needed a new way to pad their pockets. What a joke, the rich get richer and the poor get screwed over again. Should be hilarious to watch them make this fantasy fly.
  62. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: 'Mr. Dion has been encouraged by B.C.'s example – and the fact that there's been no backlash to it.'......................ya right!
  63. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: martha stewart, I have no idea why the emissions went down but that was the official government data released last summer.
  64. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Dion knows this is political suicide. However, a man in his position may as well end his career taking a stand on what he believes in. At least then history will remember him as the weak (but principled) leader who led his party through some very troubled times.
  65. A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:
    ...
    Borrow now, let the great-grandchildren pay.
    ...

    Or choose Cons and then let your grandchildren to die like the ducks in oil sand pond.
  66. Harvey Mushman from cambridge, Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: '...the first year that Dion was Environment Minister (EM not IM) saw the first ever DECREASE in total CO2 emissions (2005) from this country since we began tracking this information.' LOL Bobby...are you claiming Dion has the power to change the weather? GHG decreased in 2005 primarily because of an abnormally warm winter weather and the corresponding decrease in the use of home heating fuels and electricity. Look it up. Dion did SFA to reduce them.

    As for Con's 'smearing' Dion's punitive tax plans...I suspect that there are more Conservatives who want to see Dion campaign on this policy than there are Liberals!
  67. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Only Mikey, I see that you have listened closely to the CPC talking points. Not carefully enough, however. The reference point to come up with the 35% is the 6% BELOW 1990 levels (i.e., 35% above the Kyoto commitment). Dion was not EM until 2005. In 2005, the TOTAL emissions, according to the official numbers released last summer, dropped.
  68. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: We have already seen the impact inflated fuel costs are having on our economy, and on the Global economy. Canada, by artificially inflating it's energy costs will have an impact on the global economy exacerbating the problem further. Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien and Martin were all infatuated and seduced by their globalist cohorts. We G8 countries have globalized the third world's energy and food economies. Now we are collectively starving them to death with our short sighted and naive policies..................
  69. Skeptical Realist from Canada writes: With rising prices for gas, we are getting a carbon tax by stealth. The price of a barrell of oil is set by OPEC, and more specifically, the oil traders around the world. This is speculation at its finest. Despite what some may think, the price of gas at our pumps is not set by the 'blue eyed shieks' sitting in their boardrooms in Calgary. On average, municipal, provincial and federal taxes make up 35% of the cost of a litre of gas in this country. For the sake of argument, when gas is 1.00 a litre, various levels of government are getting 35 cents. With gas now at around 1.24 a litre government is already making around 8 cents more a litre (a 25% increase over revenue generated a month or so ago for each and every litre of gas sold at the pumps). This is just cash in the bank and is unforecasted revenue. When gas hits $2 a litre, governments will be making .70 cents a litre in taxes. This is never mentioned by anyone, why not? Call it what you want, but this addititional money is just more tax and more free money for the government. Dion just wants to increase the level of tax as a percentage of a gallon of gas so that there is a steady flow of cash into the back door of the Parliament buildings in Ottawa. I have an idea. Rather than pay the world price for gas, we should get a discount within our own borders as we are a net exporter of fuel, oil and gas. In Venezula gas is around 12 cents a US gallon. In Saudi Arabia it is 90 cents a US gallon. Why do we have to pay the global price if oil is leaching out of the ground in our own country? NO MORE TAX OF ANY KIND ON FUEL. http://www.fin.gc.ca/toce/2005/gas_tax-e.html
  70. Mike McFae from Canada writes: Some posts refer to European policy ? I have several European associates who find it amazing how cheap cars are in Canada, especially large gas guzzlers. In much of Europe , there are levies based on engine size. If Dion must tax . then tax vehicles not gas. In that way he can ease the pain on those who can least afford it. Leave the home heating fuel alone Stephane - it really hurts pensioners - and encourage Canadians to buy fuel efficient cars and levy extra taxes on vehicles that have large engines. Your proposal is just plain stupid but at least you're consistent.
  71. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes:
    So what else is new?

    Another pick-pocket tacks grab?
  72. Winston Smith from Canada writes: I am convinced Mr. Harper is the guy who financed Mr. Dion's Liberal leadership win. How else can a political leader read the electorate so badly?
  73. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom, people who are genuinely poor don't own vehicles. Rather, they use public transit to get to their $8/hr jobs.

    in urban Canada you bet
    not in rural Canada
    and when the cost of EVERYTHING goes up, it will hurt the poor the most.
    I understand your urban point of view. you know where the votes are, same as the Liberals.
    screw the people who put food on your plate. they should all move to the big city if they can't afford all the hikes Dion is planning?
    The Liberals are declaring war on rural Canada. They did the math. Rural votes don't matter
    Same thing is happening in BC
  74. Pete Kauchak, Green Tory from Cascadia, Canada writes: A carbon tax attacks the consumer and will be soundly rejected by Canadians especially if the Liberals lie by calling this a 'Revenue Neutral' Tax. Bureaucrats don't work for free.
  75. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom, people who are genuinely poor don't own vehicles. Rather, they use public transit to get to their $8/hr jobs.

    lots of rapid transit in rural Canada? um, no
    this plan is an attack on rural Canada and the working poor
    when the cost of everything gets passed on, it's the poor that will feel it the most
    rural BC knows this. they're mad but powerless.
    socialist governments only care about vote rich, urban areas
  76. bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: Bobby Dy...I suggest you read Nature, about 6 months ago, where economists stated that a Carbon tax would not work to solve the CO2 problem.

    While rising fuel prices will have some effect - particularly in the USA where boneheads will be forcibly removed from Hemi V8 SUVs- it will not have a large effect in Canada (or, I should say, the effect will be much smaller in Canada). We already drive far more efficient vehicles. I do agree with the need for much better mass transit, including vehicle trains if they will work. The bigger problem is this: transportation does not account for most of our CO2 emissions. Our building are the largest emitters, by far. We need revolutionary changes to building codes across the board.
  77. Wir sind das Volk from Canada writes: This gets the whole issue of ideology in a salient way. The left believes that governments have to use policy (taxes or state ownership) to influence decisions because markets are so flawed. The right believes markets will sort everything out. On this one though it appears the latter is more on the ball. Oil demand has been rising faster than supply (current and anticipated future) such that (international) prices of oil have sextupled in the last 7 odd years. Is that not unlike a massive carbon tax? I mean let's compare this to the left's panacea: state ownership of, for example, hydro utilities, which as part of their mandate, have kept electricity prices relatively stable which exaggerates demand hugely (no incentive to conserve). If we had realized Mr. Trudeau's vision of Petro-Canada taking over all of Canada's oil and gas industry, we might still have 49 cent a litre gas - and how would that be in the public interest?
  78. Carl Hansen from Canada writes: The carbon tax is a no brainer if you ask me. More taxes should be collected from polluters and redirected to individuals. If you pollute you pay and if you don't pollute you get more back than you paid in.

    More taxes should be distributed this way. Why give it to the Provinces to waste when individuals could make responsible decisions for themselves about where tax money goes.

    Get rid of govt programs like education and medical care and let individuals decide where to spend tax dollars.
  79. Scare Crow from Canada writes: I don't see how this can be revenue neutral. It will only punish the poor who are in fixed income or the working poor who pays in the lower strata. Consider this analogy. 1 guy earning 80K, the other 20K, lets say that they both consume on average 12K/year on basic necessities (food,fuel,clothing). With this taxes coming and impacting volatile goods, that 12K/yr can go as high as 15K/yr. The 80K guy will get more refund from income tax but the 20K guy essentially will get less. So he will suffer more. Unless part of it includes subsidy to the poor folks.
    The liberal site doesn't have any information about this yet so really no details on the implementation phase.
  80. Carl Hansen from Canada writes: 'Bureaucrats don't work for free.' Who do you think runs this country? Harper?

    You can't live with them and you can't shoot them. No matter what the system is you will always have them.
  81. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Dave Hunt, the Oregon Petition is a scam.
  82. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Wir sind das Volk makes an important point: 'Oil demand has been rising faster than supply (current and anticipated future) such that (international) prices of oil have sextupled in the last 7 odd years. Is that not unlike a massive carbon tax? '.....................when you consider that that we already pay more than a third of the price of our fuel in tax, the government has experienced a bonanza of tax revenue. We are running a 10 to 20 billion budget surplus year, we are severly over taxed already. No reduction in consumption! In fact consumption has increased at unprecidented levels. Faced with the truth Dion presses ahead with the carbon tax as a method of reducing consumption. He is either a fool or is intentionally committing political suicide.
  83. Skeptical Realist from Canada writes: I presume that Dion wants this proposed tax to be based on a percentage of the price of a litre of gas verses a fixed price. That way, as the price of gas rises, so will the 'carbon tax revenue'.
  84. Alan Burke from climatechange.dynalias.com in Ottawa, Canada writes: Politicization of the issue of climate change disgusts me.

    Start with the science, not the sound bites.
  85. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: bill johnson, and amongst the emissions from housing, the poor have the least efficient homes (older, poorly insulated homes that they can't afford to upgrade). This is where this approach could make a big difference (incidentally, gasoline is exempted from the proposed tax because the market is taking care of that right now). If some of that revenue was channeled into upgrading the housing of the poor (which would save them much needed dollars) as well as rebates of the carbon tax to the poor, the poor will be better off and we will make some progress. As you are aware, this is not a trivial problem (and there are other equally pressing environmental problems). If done right, this approach will do more to narrow the gap between rich and poor than the trivial GST cut.
  86. john smith from Canada writes: 'Antoine B from Anywhere, Canada writes: Let's try something different today. Let's try to be constructive. How can Canada reduce its dependence on fossil fuels, reduce its greenhouse gas emissions while growing its economy and developing technologies that the world will want to buy?
    If we refuse to address climate change now, our exports may face duties and/or leading edge technologies and products may be developed elsewhere. Our industries may keep churning out inefficient products that no one wants. Our businesses will not operate efficiently and will be more vulnerable to swings in energy prices.

    So what should we do?'
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    - go abroad and learn how others are doing it (germany, norway, sweden, denmark, china)
    - increase taxes on all CO2 emission (oil, natural gas)
    - lower personal and corporate taxes
    - stop subsidies to oil, coal companies
    - give tax breaks to energy conserving business (eg. insulating homes)
    - change building codes (commertial and residential) to promote efficiency
    - stop clear-cutting canadian forest (old growth/mature forest produces much more oxygen)

    and finally
    stop barking at each other (cons vs libs): it is a level of kindergarden discussion
  87. a dumb stubblejumper from saskatchewan from Canada writes: If a carbon tax like BC's is actually 'revenue neutral', it's a tax shift from urban to rural. No doubt, I can't transfer the carbon tax for fuel used on my farm to the consumers who eat my product. Thanks city-slickers.
  88. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Alan Burke mekes a good point: ' Politicization of the issue of climate change disgusts me. Start with the science, not the sound bites.'...........Science has become lost in partisan power mongering. Gore and Suzuki have done more damage to their cause than Friends of Science and IOL Ltd combined. They have betrayed what they believe in with influence peddling and political affiliation. Remember Suzuki marching around in the political arena with his friends from the LPC when the PC's announced their second to last green plan? And who can forget Gore's Christian Democrat/AGW powerpoint presentations. Not the ones meant for the international media, but the ones presented to political supporters that you can view on youtube................If you don't walk the walk, people will stop believing.
  89. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: Gimme a break....just re-label some of the many existing taxes 'carbon tax'
  90. Pragmatic Pundit from Calgary, Canada writes: Uncle Fester - The science isn't lost, you can find it easily. Scientific journals are available online and are simple to search.
  91. Mark H from Canada writes: If Toronto MP John Godfrey is all for it, it's got to be wrong.
  92. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Revenue neutral, after the 'trough's' cut.
  93. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Pragmatic Pundit from Calgary, Canada writes: Uncle Fester - The science isn't lost, you can find it easily. Scientific journals are available online and are simple to search........you better get that out to the viewers of the Nature of Things and an Inconvienent Truth.
  94. Pragmatic Pundit from Calgary, Canada writes: Uncle Fester - I would think that it's important for all, not just the groups you have singled out.
  95. Scenic Sask! from Canada writes: Good thing the likelyhood of a Liberal Government in the foreseeable future is nearly nil! What a bone-headed idea!

    The high price of fuel (can you say $200/bbl oil??) will curb our use until alternatives are refined. The current high price has already cut my gasoline use by over 3,000 liters/year.
  96. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Pragmatic Pundit from Calgary, Canada writes: Uncle Fester - I would think that it's important for all, not just the groups you have singled out.................very true. It wouldn't hurt for the main stream media to present balanced critical articles on both sides of the arguement.
  97. Rex Carbo from Energy City, Canada writes: How is a Canadian carbon tax going to have any meaningful effect on Canada's 2% share of worldwide GHG emissions? How is anything Canada does going to matter? It's insignificant.
  98. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes:

    'But check out what's happening in the world - Europe pays double or triple price...' They always have - it's all tax, and has got NOTHING to do with environmental issues. It's a cash cow for the gov'ts.

    'Germany will not have dumps after 2020 - they recycle everything' Sorry - I call 'BS' on that one.

    'Spain gets more energy from wind then any other form'. I seriously doubt that - show me the breakdown of their generating capacity.
  99. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Uncle Fester, the tax on gasoline (here at least) is not 1/3 of the price. It perhaps was at one point but at current prices, it is about 1/5th.
  100. M Hastings from Toronto, Canada writes: Don't back down. A carbon tax is unpopular but we can no longer ignore the pollution externalities. A carbon tax provides a clear, stable price signal (unlike cap-and-trade), it impacts everyone (unlike cap-and-trade) and is less vulnerable to being undermined by lobbyists (unlike cap-and-trade).

    Hold your ground. A carbon tax that is revenue neutral through lower income and corporate taxes is the only workable policy. Ignore the blather coming from Canada's most odious politician, John Baird.
  101. bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: Bobby...I agree with you, but feel we ought to promote refurbishment of most existing building stock (inhabited by rich and poor alike) and mandate things like solar panels - federally subsidized - on all new buildings. I would do this not so much to reduce CO2, but rather to maximize energy efficiency of our buildings. My brother in law put solar panels on his house and a heat pump in it; the electricity is used to power the heat pump, and sometimes he feeds the grid. Excess electricity should also be used in future for recharging autos at night.
  102. martha stewart from Canada writes: Pragmatic Pundit - But sadly, for individuals, many journals only make their articles available for a hefty fee. Tis a business now.

    But this issue isn't really about 'science.'

    I certainly agree with Uncle Fester's last comment. Sure would help if the media didn't just pump out the stuff they do. The bias of their coverage is remarkably consistent.

    Back to the topic - Go Dion! Please force an election on this issue! What will the campaign slogan be?
  103. Ron Pacific from Victoria, Canada writes: No backlash in BC for Campbell's carbon tax? That's not so as the headlines here indicate. I think that Dion's people need to really examine what is happening in BC and it isn't pretty at all. There is a sizeable backlash happening right here against the carbon tax and it is growing in momentum. One of these great ideas on paper that doesn't work when oil prices are hitting $130/bbl.
  104. Greg Davies from Calgary, Canada writes:
    Perhaps during an election campaign the CPC could go straight to the electorate with some key background info on Kyoto?

    Canadians might be interested to know for example that the architect of Kyoto is longtime business associates of both Paul Martin and Chretien via Power Corp.. Canadians might like to know that Kyoto's carbon trading framework has curious loopholes which let coal emitters in Asia suck billions out of the carbon market for little or no environmental benefit, which makes the carbon exchange little more than legalized money laundering.. Canadians might like to know about Power Corp's subsidiaries in Asia which appear to be involved in the construction of hundreds of coal plants in China, Russia and India.

    Geez why stop there. Point out that the IPCC's own assessment of the expected results of Kyoto would be little more than to delay the effects of global warming by a few months, at a cost of trillions of $$ USD?

    I wonder if that would be an effective campaign?

    Clearly the MSM don't want Canadians to be actually informed about key issues pertinent to the Liberal agenda, so perhaps the CPC will need to go straight to the people?
  105. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: bill johnson, I have been thinking about solar paneling for some time. It seems obvious that this is something that should be mandated. One of the limitations of solar right now is cost but a mandated program would bring the economies of scale to it as well. Hot water heating by solar is probably the most affordable change that could be made by most people at existing prices. You have all of this square footage in the form of rooftops across the country and virtually none of it is being used.
  106. mighty conan from Calgary, Canada writes: Mr. Dion & the rest of the Libs are a sorry lot. As much as they try they can't get it right. I'm looking forward to a time when they're swept under the carpet as they should be. Bye bye...
  107. Pragmatic Pundit from Calgary, Canada writes: martha stewart - You can access then from your local college or university library. Most will give you a temporary password so that you can use their online holdings including journals.
  108. john smith from Canada writes: ' a dumb stubblejumper from saskatchewan from Canada writes: If a carbon tax like BC's is actually 'revenue neutral', it's a tax shift from urban to rural. No doubt, I can't transfer the carbon tax for fuel used on my farm to the consumers who eat my product. Thanks city-slickers.'
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    or perhaps you can use canola or hemp oil to power you tractor. you know diesel engine was originally designed to run on vegetable oil

    you are more than anybody else, independent form price of fuel. you can grow your own!!
  109. BaB OmimO from Canada writes: I told you so I told you so.

    I told you so.

    With record oil prices.. John Q public is going to be a little more skeptical of the AGW scenarios.

    Since the world is cooling, due to reduced solar radiation and our oil consumption is going up, because it is cooling, a bigger Carbon tax will put what every government that suggests it out of business.

    HAR HAR HAR

    next catastrophe for the communists to invoke the UN in a scam.???

    suggestions??
  110. Unknown User! from Canada writes: Dion is STILL LEADER of the Liberal party?!?!
  111. bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: Alan...what is your take on the new Nature paper?
  112. Wir sind das Volk from Canada writes: My last post didnt get posted - doh! People should check out Paul Krugman's posts on the NY Times on transit - he holds up Canada as a model (as compared to the US, not Europe but as he says we dont have $8 a gallon gas - hows that for a carbon tax?). Anyway, how does Dion feel about the oil sands? Would be interesting seeing as how he'll never win seats in Alta - he can be as honest as he would like!
  113. Uncle Fester from Crack City, Ont, Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: Uncle Fester, the tax on gasoline (here at least) is not 1/3 of the price. It perhaps was at one point but at current prices, it is about 1/5th......even if I am out of date with my numbers it doesn't change that high crude prices have been a bonanza for the federal surplus while having no impact on consumption..
  114. Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: What's wrong with Dion? Jeez, I've voted Liberal most of the time but this guy, his wacky ideas and lousy speechmaking make it impossible to cast a vote for him and the Libs. Where are the LEADERS?
  115. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: Further to Ron Pacific ... the implications of high energy costs, and a carbon tax are only now being calculated in B.C.

    Small Business, Large Business, Fixed Incomers, Low to Middle Income Earners, all Transportation Modes, ..... either a direct or multiple trickle effect of high energy.

    Behaviour, the cost of living, and our economy will change without a carbon tax.
  116. Don Adams, The Conservative Centrist from Canada writes: It's taken a while, but I've FINALLY figured it out! :-) The Cons 'got to' Dion prior to the Liberal Convention, paid him a good sized lump sum of cash, (outside of the Country, of course), to run for the Liberal Leadership, had a bunch of Cons paid up as Libs so they could vote at the Convention. :-)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dion is actually a closet Conservative! :-) Coming up with this idea as a sure fire way of drowning the LIEberral party once and for all! CONS MAJORITY coming up! :-) Just can't be any other answer considering the way he's lead the Libs, just given the Cons free rein to govern. And now this carbon tax idea! :-)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Great idea Cons, whoever had it! Whatever we paid Dion, it was money well spent!
    Whooooeeee! Old Vern's going to have a s--t fit! :-)
  117. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Woodbridge, Canada writes: john smith from Canada writes: or perhaps you can use canola or hemp oil to power you tractor. you know diesel engine was originally designed to run on vegetable oil

    you are more than anybody else, independent form price of fuel. you can grow your own!!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You are a true red liberal. Reality is the furthest thing from your brain.
    Thank you Dion for ensuring another CPC win.
  118. Likeable Loser? Vote Liberal! from Canada writes: .
    M Hastings from Toronto, Canada writes: Don't back down. A carbon tax is unpopular but we can no longer ignore the pollution externalities. A carbon tax provides a clear, stable price signal (unlike cap-and-trade), it impacts everyone (unlike cap-and-trade) and is less vulnerable to being undermined by lobbyists (unlike cap-and-trade).

    Hold your ground. A carbon tax that is revenue neutral through lower income and corporate taxes is the only workable policy. Ignore the blather