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U.S. seeks formula to restore Pakistani judges

SAEED SHAH

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:36 PM EDT 13/05/08

Top official meets with coalition leaders ...Read the full article

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  1. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Democracy at its best, the rule of the Demos, the 5-10% monied males.
  2. A Better Canada from no quebec, Canada writes: Americans will never learn. Get out of everywhere...and the world will be better....Instead of lecturing others, look at the mess in your own country.
    Amazing how arrogant (we already knew..their ignorance) US can be...collapsing economy, and still, they dare to tell others what to do.
    And we have tough Canadians with no brain (harper, bernier, peter, day) still supporting the US disastrous foreign policy.
  3. Anand ** from Canada writes: Sharif just does not get it. The former Chief Justice Choudhury fingered Musharraf as well as Zardari (during Bhutto's tenure) by accepting cases against them. How can Sharif now expect Zardari to have the former Chief Justice reinstated in any way or form? Zardari is beginning to show a keen sense of politics. Sharif has been running after him from Dubai to London with little result. The best bet will be an alliance between Musharraf and Zardari. Sharif seems more hell bent on extracting blood by booting Musharraf. Terrorism and food prices be damned!
  4. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: Anand ** from Canada - probably an astute political analysis on your part. But in what sane democracy can a President simply dismiss the judiciary? I applaud any attempt to retain the power of the gavel over Generals and Presidents anywhere in the world. The image of those lawyers in the streets was breath taking. Musharraf should be turfed. He is a disgrace.
  5. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Anand: Greetings

    The old Judges you defend were the very ones who did endorse Military in its early days. There was a falling out later.

    When will Pakistanis learn to unlearn Western colonialist ways, e.g. Democracy, and go to its Islamic ways - Meritocracy.

    Pakistranis should learn a lesson from neighboring India still slavish to their English Masters' ways. Some billionnaires but masses living below poverty.

    Look at China, Singapore, Korea, all Asia. All have Meritocracy.
  6. Anand ** from Canada writes: Boreal Moose - note the keywords in your comments : 'sane democracy.' When was democracy ever sane in Pakistan where the Army has had to come out to restore order every other year?

    Where are the lawyers today? The Chief Justice has still not been reinstated but there are no demonstrations on the streets against the political parties by the same lawyers? That breathtaking image you talk about was reserved for Musharraf only.

    Musharraf is playing his cards well. He held elections, got a drubbing and is now sitting back cooling his heels while the political parties with a golden chance of doing something for the good of the people are doing exactly what they are supposed to - playing politics.
  7. Boreal Moose from Canada writes: Fair enough, Musharraf is savvy, but he is still a disgrace. And letting a President get away with dismissing the highest judiciary in the nation is stupid. It must be clear that it was ILLEGAL this time, so that it will not be legal the next time some pompous presidential git doesn't like court decisions.
  8. Random Observer from GTA, Canada writes: Pakistan is a failed state. Every election is short lived. This country is biggest problem to world peace. Only thing they export is terrorism. I am sure they will blame US for this faliure too.
  9. M Kashif from Toronto, Canada, Canada writes: Mr. Ramdom sure US need to be blamed for this faliure .No question about it. If you cannot observe it then i wnt stress it. US wants Musharaf on this Post, rest of country dont want. Simple. Us has FBI bases in Pakistan for what.. . honey moon ..? For your kind information this isnot an issue one one Judge , 60 judges resigned. A big bloe in the history of judicery histroy. Let mee refresh your memory Ex Army General is still in US think tank, why lots of favour to US when he was chief. There is a history, and you R saying not to blame..sound amazing. Definately politicians can be blamed but the main cause is US. Because most of the politicians have assests in US.
    Regarding your comment exporing terr., there are number of immigrant from this troulble country, Are they all terrorist? Remember some are parlimentarian, in police even in CSIS. Majority are as sesible and resposible as you. So dont play with the owrd, look reality and facts.
  10. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    M Kashif: AOA

    The US is not the cause of the troubles in Pakistan, but a beneficiary.

    The PML, one of the two largest Parties in Pakistan, split 8 years ago into a nationalist PML(Nawaz) faction and an internationalist PML(Q). The latter sided with Musharraf.

    The largest party today PPP wants a compromise, whereas Nawaz wants his pound of flesh.

    Obstinacy never pays. Expect PML(N) to split soon with moderates going over to PML(Q).
  11. M Kashif from Toronto, Canada, Canada writes: WAS
    thanks Syed for Clarufying. But still dear you cannot eliminate tUS factor. PML-Q and Musharaf favoured whom ...USA? Very simple
    Main conflict is that we donot have any policy. It is governed by USA. It would be easier for US if they declare it officially a Stae not ally. Becasue our Generals have done more than a Ally.

    Lets hope for the Best, because every one is suffering one way or another
  12. Anand ** from Canada writes: M Khashif I can empathize with your post as you are right the U.S literally abandoned Pakistan once the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan turning a blind eye to the festering wound that is the Taliban today. However, for its own part Pakistan did little to reassess it foreign policy thereafter. Once the Soviets left Afghanistan Pakistan should have clearly defined the nature of future relationship with the U.S and Afghanistan. That it did not do so is clearly Pakistan's fault. In fact the deep resentment Pakistani's feel today post 9/11 is because the U.S gave them no choice ("you are with us or ... ... bomb you to the stone age.." ) And understandably that must have really hurt Pakistani pride.

    However, Pakistan had no problems pre 9/11 buying $$ Billion of armaments from the US for decades? So to lay everything at the U.S or Musharaff's doorstep when things are not going smooth is not quite fair.
  13. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    M Kashif:AOA

    " ... you cannot eliminate US factor .."

    It will never be eliminated.

    True, US is rich and Pakistan is not? But there are no two other people on earth that share the same psyche, not even US and UK, US and Canada, or US and Israel.

    Let me count some ways:

    Same National Symbol - Eagle soaring free about the clouds
    Individualists freedom loving government hating
    Love armaments and guns and violence
    Profoundly religious
    Extremely mobile people
    Hospitable and generous
    Can survive without trade - feed population with borders shut

    Who was allied to the US for 40 years? Who rid the US of the Soviet menace? Israel? Canada? India?

    The Pakistani-US love-hate will continue. The relationship will deepen with time.
  14. Random Observer from GTA, Canada writes: M Kashif: Pakistan has to take ownership of its own issues. The first step is to stop blaming others. During its short history, it has been mostly under dictatorship, has had one civil war, hasn’t done much for its people and has supported lots of terrorist organizations.

    Now soon after elections, they are back in crisis. US will get blame if the current government falls. But the issue for government falling will be all internal.

    Regarding exporting terrorist, I was referring to the recent deal with Taliban to stop violence in Pakistan, while letting them still interfere in Afghanistan. You did read the other new article about car bombs. This is more Pakistan ISI, which is a power in itself.
  15. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Anand **: Greetings

    " .... U.S literally abandoned Pakistan ..."

    The "US" never abandoned Pakistan. Pakistan was "abandoned" under every Democrat Administration, and wooed under every Republican one.

    The Democrats, since Truman have always favored India. Under JFK, Pakistan had been "abandoned" too. JFK sent famous Canadian JK Galbraith to India do bring the two closer.

    Under Carter and Clinton, again, Pakistan was "abandoned". Both favored India.

    The US was close to Pakistan under Eisenhover, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr. and Dubya.

    But the US did abandon Afghanistan after the Soviets left.
  16. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Anand: Greetings

    The old Judges you defend were the very ones who did endorse Military in its early days. There was a falling out later.

    When will Pakistanis learn to unlearn Western colonialist ways, e.g. Democracy, and go to its Islamic ways - Meritocracy.

    Pakistranis should learn a lesson from neighboring India still slavish to their English Masters' ways. Some billionnaires but masses living below poverty.

    Look at China, Singapore, Korea, all Asia. All have Meritocracy.----------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Singapore is a democracy, same with South Korea.

    Why are all muslim countries such sh1tholes if the islamic meritocracy is so good?
    Would it be because they are theocracies, not meritocracies?
  17. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Joe Gopher: Hi

    " ... Singapore is a democracy, same with South Korea..."

    So is China. So were the Soviet Republics. What is your point?

    The regimes I mentioned are closely controlled where the power is wielded by a highly educated and learned class, not like a c-student Dubya.
  18. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Joe Gopher: Hi

    " ... Singapore is a democracy, same with South Korea..."

    So is China. So were the Soviet Republics. What is your point?

    The regimes I mentioned are closely controlled where the power is wielded by a highly educated and learned class, not like a c-student Dubya.--------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No China is not a democracy, neither were the soviet republics.
    Oddly enough having 'democratic' in the countries name is not a guarantee that it will be a democracy.
    Even Dubya, who went to Yale, would know that.
    But if islam is the best way to rule a country, why are all islamic countries such dumps?
    Why are they trapped in the 7th century?
  19. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Joe Gopher: Hi

    " .. No China is not a democracy, neither were the soviet republics .."

    They considered themselves as worker democracies. Just because they are not Bourgeois democracies matters little.

    In any case, technically is Canada a Democracy, the rule of the Demos, the 5-10% monied males?

    Who decides if one is democratic or not. You?

    My point was the Singapore is a Meritocracy. That is why that little island with no resources lives better than this vaste expanse of Canada with plethora of resources but a branch plant slave economy only because we have the ballyhooed Bourgeois inefficient "Democracy".

    Pakistan could do without such riff raff and should follow the Asian model.
  20. Khalid Rahim from Canada writes: Boucher was in London to pat Zardari and Hussain(MQM) on the back for
    keeping the popular chief justice out of his seat. As for Sharifs he was there
    warn them, behave yourselves; otherwise this time it will not be Jeddah to
    rest! but probably some other spot that will keep you on your----
    Anyway tomorrow tuesday while Hillary has winning streak with her 'White
    School Dropout' in WV. Sharif's party will not be federal ministers with PPP.
    As it was expected that Zardari on instance of Musharraf will invite MQM to
    fill the vacant spots, there will be some shuffling. What next for US and Musharraf? as the lawyers and civil rights groups come out in the street. A new change that Bush would prefer with General Kayani in the saddle
    in place of retired General Musharraf. The winner is Mr 10 percent as he now has a place in the 'Billionaire's Club'.
  21. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Your're not making much sense. The definition of a democracy isn't what they put in the name, it's if you get to vote or not.
    Mussolini made the trains run on time, but that isn't the only measure of success, is it?
    Shouldn't freedom count?
    Freedom to choose your leaders and freedom to have a say in what kind of society you live in?
    You like Singapore's society?
    Canada's standard of living is better than Singapore's, the UN consistently rates it higher than Singapore.
    It doesn't matter if you have money or not in Canada or if you are male or female, you still get to vote.
    As far as the monied male thing, Stephen Harper did not come from money, he is distinctly middle class.
    The most successful countries in the world are real democracies, shouldn't we learn something from that?
    The islamic theocracies are all dumps. You might want to call them meritocracies, but in that you are wrong, they are theocracies.
    Running a country based on a 7th century religion does not seem to work. If it did, wouldn't islamic countries be on the cutting edge of societal development instead of trailing so badly?
    Israel hhas had more Nobel prizes in a year than the whole islamic world gets in a decade.
    Think of where they could be if they abandoned the superstition of religion and joined the modern world.
    One more question, what are your views on the value of freedom in a modern society?
  22. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: Joe Gopher: Hi A pissing contest? To humor you. “ .. Shouldn't freedom count? ..” Man born free. No law can enslave him. “ ..Freedom to choose .. leaders ..” Took part in no less than 20 Fed and Prov, know the system. So cut the cra.. “ .. like Singapore..” Twice a year. “ .. Canada's standard of living is better than Singapore's ...” By not much. To whom more is give, from him more is expected. Where is the beaf? “ ... get to vote ..” You want mine? In my Party they say, vote early, vote often. “ ... Stephen Harper ... middle class ...” Mediocre all right. I go for Meritocracy. Ever heard of Socrates? “ ... successful countries..democracies ...” 40 years in Canada I see only decline. Asia leapfrogged without Democracy. "theocracies are all dumps" Been to one lately? “ .. Israel has had more Nobel prizes ..” Einstein said of Jews – great past but no future. “ ... value of freedom in a modern soc ..” What freedom?
  23. Joe Gopher from Canada writes: Well since you're the big muslim scholar but you can only spout crap instead of having a honest debate I'll try to make it simple for you.
    Why are the countries ruled by islam such dumps?

    The sons of pigs and monkeys seem to be doing so much better than them, why is that?
    Why does Israel produce more intellectual advances in a week than the muslim world does in a year?
    Where are all the muslim Nobel prizes?
    Instead of blaming the rest of the world for all of your problems, why not look in a mirror?
    Christianity had it's Reformation, why can't islam do the same?

    You don't like democracies yet how can you not see that they are doing so much better than the theocracies.
    You want a meritocracy, who decides who leads it?
    Perhaps you could vote on that?
  24. Khalid Rahim from Canada writes: Joe Gopher: There is nothing wrong with Islam or the Koran; Its our own
    way of interpretation that misleads us, whether as a Muslim or Non-Muslim
    we cover ourselves in our own nakedness. India produce two great Muslim
    thinkers and reformers, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan the founder of the Aligarh University and Dr Mohammed Iqbal the Philospher, who achieved his PhD from Germany. Both called for reawakening of the decaying Muslim mind.
    While we Muslims from such remote region of North West Pakistan have the ability and courage to read and understand Plutarch, Tennyson, Hugo
    and Shakespeare! How much effort do you(IvyLeaguer) have done to study Ghalib, Iqbal, Attar and Rumi. If you come out of your cocoon and
    sit with us with an open mind? You will learn we are not backward, but we do have fundamentalists, as any other society has them. But have the moral courage to accept yours and don't hide them under your skirts
    or your closest.
  25. Aziz Tayyab from Canada writes: Both Islam and Quran are wrong; based on the belief that Jesus Christ did not die or was crucified. Therefore,Jesus is and was living
    prophet/messenger of God at Mohammad's time making him a false
    prophet/messenger.
    I never cared much for Iqbal and other Punjabies who can write all kind of books in other languages and cannot read or write their own
    mother tongue.Pakistanies read English literature out of need but
    the english do not need to know or learn Urdu.
    When in 1971, Bungladeshies i.e. the majority of muslim pakistanies
    rejected thre idea of a country based on religion Islam the very creation of Pakistan became illegal in my opinion.
  26. Inner Eye from Canada writes: Khalid Rahim from Canada writes:

    Please don't glorify your incapability. You learn English and imitate western culture, because your own language and culture failed you to earn a decent livelihood. People from Pakistan migrate to west in hundred and thousand, not to enlighten the westerns, but for economic reasons, because your society failed to provide them livelihood. When a Englishman does not learn Urdu (a 250 years old, third rated language created by English to communicate with natives ) he has nothing to loose. But when a Pakistani does not learn English, he is not recognised as a educated person even in Pakistan.

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